Table or handheld (router use)?

[Rich Engelhardt]

I have some drawer fronts and a cabinet door (20" x 20") and three shelves (~ 22x20") I need to round over the edges.
Which would be the best way to go -the table - or - do them with a handheld router?

I'll be doing this outside in the driveway in 45 degree weather.

[Ole Anderson]

For a simple round over I usually just go to my handheld trim router. If I had a whole stack to do I would go to my table where I have pretty good dust collection. But dust collection is a driveway would consist, for me, of firing up my leaf blower afterwards.

[Howard Rosenberg]

The conventional wisdom is you bring the easier object to the more difficult-to-maneuver object.

In other words, if the object you'll be routing is too big, heavy or awkward, bring the router to it. Otherwise, you bring IT to your router table.

It depends on how comfortable you are in either scenario. If it were me, I’d bring drawers and shelves that size to the router.

One other consideration - do you have safe and effective methods of holding your work in place? Or do you use low profile bench dogs that won’t interfere with the router bit?

If you can’t hold it place safely and get a consistent edge as you stop the tool, unclamp, reposition the object and then reclamp, use the table.

Also, if you find 45F cold, use grippy gloves. (In Toronto, that’s still shorts weather…)

[Brian Tymchak]

Personally, I would do that job on a table, just to avoid any possibility of the router wavering a bit and translating that into the cut. You also don't have to clamp your work, and then reposition to finish. Also, if you are doing a full round over of the entire edge, I think the table makes that an easier task.

[Warren Lake]

hand so you can climb cut

[Frank Pratt]

For pieces that size, I'd definitely do it on the table using the fence. There's so much less risk of an oops that way and dust collection is near perfect. You can even put on a zero clearance sacrificial face on the fence to eliminate the risk of tear out.

[John TenEyck]

hand so you can climb cut

What Warren said. Edge routing on the router table is asking for tearout. Climb cutting is the only way I know of to prevent it and is safe with small diameter bits, or at least I consider it safe, and unless you have a power feeder the only way to climb cut safely is with a handheld router.

John

[Warren Lake]

johns answer from someone whos obviously done the time

I look at what gets the job done the best with the least blowouts especially doing 50-100 pieces at a time. The dust, if i go to a desert id expect to see sand. Climb cutting then forward with hardly any material left from the climb cut. Hand trimmer one hand one hand on the part at times left hand resting on the part. Its all about feel.

[Alan Lightstone]

What Warren said. Edge routing on the router table is asking for tearout. Climb cutting is the only way I know of to prevent it and is safe with small diameter bits, or at least I consider it safe, and unless you have a power feeder the only way to climb cut safely is with a handheld router.

John

Why is it that climb cutting is safe on a hand router, but not on a router table?

[Warren Lake]

you control the tool by hand the other way it controls you

[Doug Garson]

Why is it that climb cutting is safe on a hand router, but not on a router table?
I have the same question. Safety is all about control, with the router in a table it's under control. If the workpieces are cabinet doors and shelves roughly 20" by 20" they are relatively easy to control on a router table compared to holding them down with one hand and holding on to a trim router with the other. If the router grabs, I'd rather it throws the workpiece than have a trim router with a sharp spinning bit thrown around.

[John TenEyck]

I have the same question. Safety is all about control, with the router in a table it's under control. If the workpieces are cabinet doors and shelves roughly 20" by 20" they are relatively easy to control on a router table compared to holding them down with one hand and holding on to a trim router with the other. If the router grabs, I'd rather it throws the workpiece than have a trim router with a sharp spinning bit thrown around.

No offense, but it's clear you have never tried climb cutting on a router table, and please don't. Almost any climb cutting attempt on a router table will result in the bit grabbing the workpiece and pulling it out of your hands. If you are lucky, only the workpiece gets ruined. With a handheld router you are in control of the cutting action. With a small bit in a palm router you don't have to clamp down the workpiece, but do so if you feel more secure. With a larger bit in a more powerful router, yes, definitely clamp down the workpiece. If the router feels unstable, put it on a wider base so it won't tip. Here's a photo of how I routed the edge profile on a 14 ft long handrail, using a wider base and another section of handrail to provide a stable platform.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXFASVpKtWkYv-xNrqWXU0Sq-VO3QTnbank30JQUCuEG0MSUp1w7CM0HJrEgFik3xjRbACsxmXM a7m5WhW5cvlbzV998DwWN1jJhOZqPA-cKRIzc0yNsfipjC-nfsyFFBShKou9w0bp_NMm0-fdS4Db0A=w820-h615-no?authuser=0

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLV5dDx1zTRsCDPTLOzBxy9PoonqBP4aQDjzSRmjCnuZ4-kcvmbes62TrZpK08xIol9bmws_WTTHN9pycyc-_miYaVfQJfoOQ8JjcOk60yXlUfFgNGldrYN1aMaQTcEa3uBxQd i4ZH6Zn_R_AkbDSRDZDQ=w820-h615-no?authuser=0

This was a large diameter bit so I used a Variac to lower the speed of the router. I didn't own a variable speed router at that time.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXOSxI9YQwYgJMcSdN0zAQxQl1QLgL-3yH5V0nkQMcet8ME5bBVTi3pPVyZ_bXObMIqZaexcD3IpShOZI KjL9HxzEoIyfiW_u1GjdHq30Hi5aqSJ9WSSGIfZvThc1g8sjah Maa3H07v559f2EoLfnkfsQ=w820-h615-no?authuser=0

The size of the workpiece necessitated a handheld approach, but you wouldn't want to do it on the router table even if you could, both from a safety and tear out point of view.

John

[Doug Garson]

No offense, but it's clear you have never tried climb cutting on a router table, and please don't. Almost any climb cutting attempt on a router table will result in the bit grabbing the workpiece and pulling it out of your hands. If you are lucky, only the workpiece gets ruined. With a handheld router you are in control of the cutting action. With a small bit in a palm router you don't have to clamp down the workpiece, but do so if you feel more secure. With a larger bit in a more powerful router, yes, definitely clamp down the workpiece. If the router feels unstable, put it on a wider base so it won't tip. Here's a photo of how I routed the edge profile on a 14 ft long handrail, using a wider base and another section of handrail to provide a stable platform.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXFASVpKtWkYv-xNrqWXU0Sq-VO3QTnbank30JQUCuEG0MSUp1w7CM0HJrEgFik3xjRbACsxmXM a7m5WhW5cvlbzV998DwWN1jJhOZqPA-cKRIzc0yNsfipjC-nfsyFFBShKou9w0bp_NMm0-fdS4Db0A=w820-h615-no?authuser=0

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLV5dDx1zTRsCDPTLOzBxy9PoonqBP4aQDjzSRmjCnuZ4-kcvmbes62TrZpK08xIol9bmws_WTTHN9pycyc-_miYaVfQJfoOQ8JjcOk60yXlUfFgNGldrYN1aMaQTcEa3uBxQd i4ZH6Zn_R_AkbDSRDZDQ=w820-h615-no?authuser=0

This was a large diameter bit so I used a Variac to lower the speed of the router. I didn't own a variable speed router at that time.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXOSxI9YQwYgJMcSdN0zAQxQl1QLgL-3yH5V0nkQMcet8ME5bBVTi3pPVyZ_bXObMIqZaexcD3IpShOZI KjL9HxzEoIyfiW_u1GjdHq30Hi5aqSJ9WSSGIfZvThc1g8sjah Maa3H07v559f2EoLfnkfsQ=w820-h615-no?authuser=0

The size of the workpiece necessitated a handheld approach, but you wouldn't want to do it on the router table even if you could, both from a safety and tear out point of view.

John
No offence taken, you seem passionate, I'm just curious. Yes I've climb cut on a router table, I make a lot of wooden toys to donate to charity for Christmas toy drives and use round over bits on small parts, too small to use a hand held router. I need to climb cut sometimes to avoid tear out. I'm extra careful to take a light pass when climb cutting and hold the workpiece securely. Please explain the difference in mechanics at the bit/workpiece interface between handheld and router table that makes one safe and the other not.

[Warren Lake]

No one said it was safe either way we said climb cutting part to a machine is dangerous. You are doing a bad practice and getting away with it taking a mouses fart of material off.

Step it up to raised panel bit and let us know how that works, or put a piece of wood behind the table saw blade. at the heal. Some new cars have launch control, our machines have had it built in all along.


im extra careful to take a light pass when climb cutting" what does that mean?

Im not Mr Safety, still I wouldn't climb cut on a router table. It even works better by hand as your final cut is often forward pass. Like working on a stroke sander its a skill to get the best out of whatever process.

[Mel Fulks]

You can use a small round over bit to climb cut safely. Then change bit to “real cut” (non climb cut) profile , that is safe and it greatly cuts down on tear out.
Think of it as stopping a sweater from unraveling by cutting off the loose thread.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Thanks everyone!

I believe I'll be more comfortable doing this on the table.

[Edward Weber]

A few things I suppose I missed or misunderstood.
Why was climb cutting even brought up when the OP just wanted to round over some square panels and what's wrong with a table?
I only climb cut when it's absolutely necessary and take light passes when I do. I don't know why some members would seem to bring this up their first option.
Some of you seem to believe that a router table is inherently somehow the cause of tear out, I don't understand this.
Just genuinely curious, I'm not trying t convince anyone to change their habits.

[John TenEyck]

If you use the router table in the manner recommended by every source I've ever read you will always move from right to left past the bit. You are pushing the work against the direction of rotation. It's safe, but it can lead to tear out when the bit is rotating into the grain rather than with the grain. This is the same issue when using the jointer, planer, hand plane, or nearly any cutting tool/machine. You "read the grain" to eliminate tear out with those machines/tools. But on the cabinet doors the OP asked about some of the grain on some of the edges he needs to profile will have the grain running into the bit and there is a highly likelihood of the bit causing tear out if you route in the conventional, safe, right to left direction. If you read the grain you would have to route some edges from left to right (climb cut) in order to eliminate the possibility of tear out and that is an inherently unsafe act on the router table unless you use a power feeder. However, you can climb cut in relative safety using the router hand held.

After all the effort to make a set of cabinet doors I am not willing to risk ruining them profiling the edges, so I choose to do it with the router hand held using a climb cut. I find it safe; others may not. I absolutely would not do it climb cutting on the router table.

John

[Warren Lake]

The router is carbide, new its not super sharp, the router has a small radius bit in its arc it is pulling out, in a planer jointer with a 5" head or whatever the knives are not pulling the material out in a small arc but more parrallel with the cut. Blow out is far more likely in a router bit than large radius like on a shaper say.

The chances id use a router table are zero. Oh and did I say the chances id use a router table are zero. I never clamped a part in my life for a small trim operation with a laminate trimmer. Ive done tons it would too slow and not needed.

Any part lost was a part lost thats why when you do volume you run a more than needed. You got good information from a number of people. You have not even said what the radius is and that makes a difference as well how big that is deeper equals more blow out as the arc of the router bit becomes more out.

Have to go out and pee in the wind.

[Warren Lake]

Likely better to have said "bang my head against the wall" but cant edit head banging is more suitable.

[Edward Weber]

I understand your position now, thanks for taking the time.

[Edward Weber]

The router is carbide, new its not super sharp, the router has a small radius bit in its arc it is pulling out, in a planer jointer with a 5" head or whatever the knives are not pulling the material out in a small arc but more parrallel with the cut. Blow out is far more likely in a router bit than large radius like on a shaper say.


I understand what you're saying but much of that depends on how much material is removed in each pass.
Reading grain direction that always needs to be considered no matter what tool or how the wood is cut.
I will typically remove enough to get to near final dimensions and then do a finishing pass removing only a few thousandths. Then if I need to climb cut, it's not an issue for me.

Thanks for your response

[Warren Lake]

no grain doesnt matter, as the bulk is already removed by going back wards, it doesnt tare out when its not there what is left is a straight cut compared to a pulling out cut. Bang bang bang bang

even Mels way which I totally get would slow me down too much on volume, there is no time to ad another step and climb cutting left less material than a first time router bit would. Ive done that as well leaving .020 then a separate router for clean up.

Sorry have to go build a router table

[Edward Weber]

Well I guess we all have different experiences with a router
Work safe
I should add, as I said earlier. I do use climb cuts, just not as my "go-to" method of cutting.
I understand the physics, I'm just not that comfortable with it (probably I don't do it often)

[Doug Garson]

If you use the router table in the manner recommended by every source I've ever read you will always move from right to left past the bit. You are pushing the work against the direction of rotation. It's safe, but it can lead to tear out when the bit is rotating into the grain rather than with the grain. This is the same issue when using the jointer, planer, hand plane, or nearly any cutting tool/machine. You "read the grain" to eliminate tear out with those machines/tools. But on the cabinet doors the OP asked about some of the grain on some of the edges he needs to profile will have the grain running into the bit and there is a highly likelihood of the bit causing tear out if you route in the conventional, safe, right to left direction. If you read the grain you would have to route some edges from left to right (climb cut) in order to eliminate the possibility of tear out and that is an inherently unsafe act on the router table unless you use a power feeder. However, you can climb cut in relative safety using the router hand held.

After all the effort to make a set of cabinet doors I am not willing to risk ruining them profiling the edges, so I choose to do it with the router hand held using a climb cut. I find it safe; others may not. I absolutely would not do it climb cutting on the router table.

John

Which post did the OP ask "about some of the grain on some of the edges he needs to profile will have the grain running into the bit and there is a highly likelihood of the bit causing tear out if you route in the conventional, safe, right to left direction."? I must have missed that post. You have made it clear you would not climb cut on a router table, what you have not made clear is why it is unsafe. If you don't know why, there's no shame in admitting it. I have seen posts from credible sources that agree with you such as Wood Magazine, but none of them explain why other than it can throw the workpiece and draw your hand into the bit. That's a valid concern and perhaps enough reason not to do it but they don't explain why the reaction between the bit and workpiece is so different in a table vs hand held which was my question. I'm not challenging that it is unsafe just trying to understand the fundamental reason why it is unsafe. If the router is handheld and the bit grabs and throws the router I would consider that dangerous also especially if you are holding the workpiece with one hand and the router with the other, using a bit that takes a big cut etc.
However there is this article quote from Fine Woodworking discussing climb cutting which explains how it can be safely done on a router table.
"


Not on a router table…




Use a push cut when feeding stock by hand. If you climb cut, the stock can be ripped from your hand, drawing your hand into the cutter. Unless you use a jig If your workpiece is large, or locked into a heavy jig or sled of some kind, a climb cut on the router table can be made safely.

https://www.finewoodworking.com/app/uploads/uploadedimages/fine_woodworking_network/image_resources/web_only/unless-you-use-a-jig.jpghttps://www.finewoodworking.com/app/themes/finewoodworking/dist/img/icon-plus.png (https://www.finewoodworking.com/app/uploads/uploadedimages/fine_woodworking_network/image_resources/web_only/unless-you-use-a-jig.jpg)click to enlarge (https://www.finewoodworking.com/app/uploads/uploadedimages/fine_woodworking_network/image_resources/web_only/unless-you-use-a-jig.jpg)







https://www.finewoodworking.com/2011/07/15/climb-cutting-dont-believe-the-naysayers
https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/routing/climb-cutting

[Warren Lake]

good grief

[Jim Dwight]

As long as the pieces are flat, you can do it either way. If the doors are flat panel, then you will need to be careful on the router table to avoid the angle changing when the perimeter of the door is not fully on the table.

Either way should work. The work pieces are not real large nor real small.

I back cut both hand held and on the router table. But when I do, I take steps to limit the amount I am cutting. Something like a 1/8 round over isn't going to be the issue that a 3/4 round over could be. Somewhat the same way, my little Bosch Colt is not going to be as hard to control as the PC 7518 motor in my router table. But the 7518 doing a 1/8 round over would not be a challenge to control either. The best way to stay in control (other than just cutting in the right direction for the router) is to take very small bites if you must back cut. I agree that sometimes the grain wants to tear out and we don't get much choice. If you must do it, regardless of how you do it, take small bites and keep a firm grip on the router and workpiece.

I like the pictures of the PC690s. I have and use 2 of those. One used to have speed control but when that board went out, I started using a separate speed control when I use a large bit in it. Nice solid old routers.

[Bernie Kopfer]

To prevent tear out on the router table I have for years done a quarter inch or less slow climb cut on the corner that will tear out. Then routing conventionally results in no tear out and utilizes the safety and advantages of the router table.

[John TenEyck]

You are right. The OP didn't ask if tearout would be an issue doing the profile cuts on the router table; he asked which was the better option, router table or handheld. I said handheld and gave a reason why - tearout. If you've done much routing on the router table you will know about tearout when the grain is running the wrong way. There's just no way to avoid it on some of the edges from a group of doors if you always route right to left. You can try to minimize the problem by taking small cuts but in some cases tearout will happen anyway ruining the door.

Your reference of the FWW article explains when it's possible to manually climb cut safely on the router table - when the workpiece is heavy, either of it's own accord or when cradled in a massive jig. This helps resist the force of the router bit that wants to shoot it out of your hands, left to right. It's a poor man's power feeder.

When you climb cut with the router handheld it can't shoot out the workpiece if it's clamped down. You, plus the mass of the router are acting as the power feeder to resist the tendency of the bit to run along the edge of the workpiece. I find one hand operation safe with a palm router and small diameter bit and the workpiece held down on a router mat to be safe but that's just me.

I think I've explained it the best I can. Do whatever you feel safe doing.

John

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'm hoping I can deal with tear out by using a backer board.
The doors and drawers are simple plywood - made to match the existing 1950s ones in the kitchen now.

[John TenEyck]

To prevent tear out on the router table I have for years done a quarter inch or less slow climb cut on the corner that will tear out. Then routing conventionally results in no tear out and utilizes the safety and advantages of the router table.

A backer board will take care of corner chipout, and that can be done in the conventional way. The greater issue is tearout along the edge when the grain runs into the bit, and there's no good way of dealing with that routing right to left. A climb cut along the entire edge is the only way of avoiding that tearout, whether done on the router table or hand held.

John

[Doug Garson]

You are right. The OP didn't ask if tearout would be an issue doing the profile cuts on the router table; he asked which was the better option, router table or handheld. I said handheld and gave a reason why - tearout. If you've done much routing on the router table you will know about tearout when the grain is running the wrong way. There's just no way to avoid it on some of the edges from a group of doors if you always route right to left. You can try to minimize the problem by taking small cuts but in some cases tearout will happen anyway ruining the door.

Your reference of the FWW article explains when it's possible to manually climb cut safely on the router table - when the workpiece is heavy, either of it's own accord or when cradled in a massive jig. This helps resist the force of the router bit that wants to shoot it out of your hands, left to right. It's a poor man's power feeder.

When you climb cut with the router handheld it can't shoot out the workpiece if it's clamped down. You, plus the mass of the router are acting as the power feeder to resist the tendency of the bit to run along the edge of the workpiece. I find one hand operation safe with a palm router and small diameter bit and the workpiece held down on a router mat to be safe but that's just me.

I think I've explained it the best I can. Do whatever you feel safe doing.

John
Good explanation, I think at the bit/workpiece contact point it doesn't matter whether the router is handheld or in a table, if it grabs it's going to pull the workpiece into the bit or the bit into the workpiece. If the router is in a table and your pushing the workpiece with your bare hand in line with the bit your hand is going to head for the bit and trouble, the solution is a push block or jig like the Fine Woodworking article so your hand is not in line with the bit and/or there is something between you and the bit. Taking light passes reduces the chance of the bit grabbing.
Just to be clear, I was not disagreeing that climb cutting is dangerous whether hand held or table mounted, just trying to understand the dynamics involved. I guess it's the Engineer in me that wants to understand what's going on rather than blindly following the rules.

[Jay Aubuchon]

I'm hoping I can deal with tear out by using a backer board.

This sounds as though you are thinking of blowout at the end of the cut rather than tear out during the cut.

[johnny means]

Either way will do as long as the panels are flat. If not, a router table will leave an uneven profile. Climb cutting shouldn't be necessary, and imo is almost never preferable, if your bit is sharp. Rather, take mulitiple passes with the bit not at full depth. It's the cutter's exit angle that causes problems. partial depth cuts will keep the angle more shear. Rout the endgrain edge first, the next pass along the long grain will clean up the blowout.
.

[Mel Fulks]

I’ve never had any luck using light cuts to avoid tear-out. But maybe my luck is ready to turn!! If you don’t like the idea of climb cuts,
you can use sandpaper to slightly round corner before using the router, that’s just another way of dealing with the “loose thread”

[Alan Schwabacher]

If you climb cut on a router table, your hand is on the work that might be thrown, so it could be pulled into the bit.

If you climb cut with a lightweight router by hand, the router with your hand on it may be pulled along the cut. You can more easily make sure it does not hit your hand.