Felder PCS?

[derek labian]

Interesting new video from Felder on the Format 4 table saw showing a PCS system. Looks just like Sawstop and carries the same PCS branding, so I couldn't be surprised if they were related.

They have a website for it too.

https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/pcs

Edit: Video I meant to post:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-cRzYXY_3c

[Frank Pratt]

The Felder system is nothing like the SawStop & they don't even look similar. They do both retract the blade, though the Felder system has no sacrificial parts to replace when the system is triggered.

[Erik Loza]

I have used (and sold) them. Fire away: What do you want to know?

Erik

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[Jim Becker]

Yes, similar end result, but a completely and radically different way of doing the deed.

[Erik Loza]

Yes, similar end result, but a completely and radically different way of doing the deed.

So, Felder actually holds the patent on the PCS design. The system was developed in conjunction with the engineering department at the University of Vienna. The triggering mechanism is the same as SS (completing the electrical circuit being the trigger) but the rest is, as Jim mentioned, 100% different. Things I noticed after getting a chance to actually use it:

-When the PCS triggers, it is amazingly quiet. Just an audible "thunk" as the blade drops out of the way. Rather anti-climactic, in fact. I was expecting some loud bang.
-The system's sensitivity can be adjusted (by a Felder tech).
-I think I timed the actual reset: About 8 seconds
-According to the factory techs we had at the show with us, the PCS system was tested to 500+ cycles before requiring re-calibration or registering any sort of issue. I believe there's a buffer assembly of some type in the bottom of the saw group that might require replacement at 500 actuations but that's it.

Another well-known name in the European sliding saw world that has their own blade-stopping system but theirs is based on a camera which is mounted to the overhead sawguard. They apparently have shown a prototype machine at a few shows but not sure if it's actually something you can own, yet. The PCS system is real and available now. We have a sold a number in the US already. It doesn't seem like I can embed unhosted video clips here or I would share a few clips of the machine in use.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

Confirming that video media does need to be hosted elsewhere to embed...the 'Tube is generally the most popular.

[derek labian]

The Felder system is nothing like the SawStop & they don't even look similar. They do both retract the blade, though the Felder system has no sacrificial parts to replace when the system is triggered.

They look identical from the user perspective. I don't know whats happening under the saw.

[derek labian]

Confirming that video media does need to be hosted elsewhere to embed...the 'Tube is generally the most popular.

Not sure what happened to the video link, this is the one I meant to post, just posted a couple of days ago. Pretty interesting in comparison to SS.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-cRzYXY_3c

[Erik Loza]

Confirming that video media does need to be hosted elsewhere to embed...the 'Tube is generally the most popular.

Yeah, I figured that. Here is a trade show video from one of the Austrians. The b***s on that dude, using his actual finger! My wife made me swear to never do that.

Erik


https://vimeo.com/340706734

[derek labian]

So, Felder actually holds the patent on the PCS design. The system was developed in conjunction with the engineering department at the University of Vienna. The triggering mechanism is the same as SS (completing the electrical circuit being the trigger) but the rest is, as Jim mentioned, 100% different. Things I noticed after getting a chance to actually use it:

-When the PCS triggers, it is amazingly quiet. Just an audible "thunk" as the blade drops out of the way. Rather anti-climactic, in fact. I was expecting some loud bang.
-The system's sensitivity can be adjusted (by a Felder tech).
-I think I timed the actual reset: About 8 seconds
-According to the factory techs we had at the show with us, the PCS system was tested to 500+ cycles before requiring re-calibration or registering any sort of issue. I believe there's a buffer assembly of some type in the bottom of the saw group that might require replacement at 500 actuations but that's it.

Another well-known name in the European sliding saw world that has their own blade-stopping system but theirs is based on a camera which is mounted to the overhead sawguard. They apparently have shown a prototype machine at a few shows but not sure if it's actually something you can own, yet. The PCS system is real and available now. We have a sold a number in the US already. It doesn't seem like I can embed unhosted video clips here or I would share a few clips of the machine in use.

Erik

Pretty interesting; I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the Felder system. Do you know how does Felder stops the blade (or does it just drop the blade)?

[derek labian]

Yeah, I figured that. Here is a trade show video from one of the Austrians. The b***s on that dude, using his actual finger! My wife made me swear to never do that.

Erik


https://vimeo.com/340706734

Trying to determine if that is courage, commitment, or stupidity :) Pretty cool though!

[Jim Becker]

Pretty interesting; I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the Felder system. Do you know how does Felder stops the blade (or does it just drop the blade)?

I think part of the issue there is limited availability...Erik can comment on what specific saw models can be bought with it.

[Erik Loza]

Pretty interesting; I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the Felder system. Do you know how does Felder stops the blade (or does it just drop the blade)?

Just drops. The "drop" part happens so fast that the motor brake doesn't have time to engage until the saw unit is well below the cast iron deck. You can actually hear the motor brake engaging after the blade drops. Once that happens, the machine is cleared to reset the blade. The other feature on Felder saws that doesn't get enough press is the LED safety light for the scoring blade (because you can't see/hear the scoring blade when it's running: Go to 3:26 of the video below)...

Erik


https://youtu.be/xsxy28oxnzA?t=203

[Erik Loza]

I think part of the issue there is limited availability...Erik can comment on what specific saw models can be bought with it.

Only the Kappa 550 so far. Reason for that is that PCS mechanism is so large that we cannot physically fit it into a smaller chassis. With the magnets and everything, I think the saw group weighs something like 275 lbs., so size is a limitation. Also, it's a "premium" feature and like so many things, if you want the premium feature, you gotta' buy the premium model.

I think the PCS machine is definitely a niche feature. We have no interest in competing with SS. Two totally different markets. The Austrians told me that they can't crank out PCS machines fast enough at the factory, demand is so high over there. But that's Europe, where large sliders are still a staple. We've sold a number here in the US but it will take time for the word to get out. I can see a market in schools/institutions who need more than regular cabinet saw. It will just take time.

Erik

[derek labian]

https://youtu.be/xsxy28oxnzA?t=203

Sweet saw..

[Steve Demuth]

Just. Unbelievably. Great. Engineering.

The blade withdrawal system isn't a big surprise - Saw Stop's approach, although well engineered, is obviously a bit of a design kludge. I really like the PCS approach (which of course also gets to take advantage of 20 years of advancement in electromagnetic actuators and solid state switching). Anyone who thought seriously about it concluded a long time ago that non-destructive withdrawal and braking systems were possible and preferable, if you could get around Saw Stop's patents.

But wiring a saw blade to both generate a sufficiently consistent field around itself, and to detect the back effect on the control circuits from a body part several millimeters from the blade is just outstanding, and at least to me, a bit unexpected. I'm really impressed.

Unfortunately for me, a kappa 550 with PCS would cost more than my entire tool inventory, but my, I do want one.

[Albert Lee]

I've considered Felder when I was in the market due to the PCS but its only available on the Kappa 550, a single tilt machine. its not available on the Kappa 590, maybe because the mechanism to swing both side prevented PCS...

[Erik Loza]

its not available on the Kappa 590, maybe because the mechanism to swing both side prevented PCS...

Correct: Not enough room in the chassis on a two-way tilt machine to accommodate the PCS assembly.

Erik

[Mark Kanof]

I also think there is maybe some unfortunate coincidental acronym overlap being used here. Felder is marketing their Preventative Contact System (PCS) whereas SawStop sells a model of their saw with the PCS moniker, but in that case it stands for Professional Cabinet Saw (PCS). Or in other words for Felder that acronym is used to describe the safety mechanism, but for SawStop it has nothing to do with the safety system and is instead indicating that the saw falls in the middle of their product lineup.

[Erik Loza]

I also think there is maybe some unfortunate coincidental acronym overlap being used here...

We (US team) always kind of scratch our heads at Austria's marketing. If any one remembers, Chevy tried to introduce the Nova to the Mexico at one point, except that none of the Americans realized that "Nova" in Spanish means "No va", or "It doesn't go". LOL

Erik

[Steve Wurster]

We (US team) always kind of scratch our heads at Austria's marketing. If any one remembers, Chevy tried to introduce the Nova to the Mexico at one point, except that none of the Americans realized that "Nova" in Spanish means "No va", or "It doesn't go". LOL

Erik

That's a debunked urban legend... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Chevy_II_/_Nova#Urban_legend

[Erik Loza]

That's a debunked urban legend... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Chevy_II_/_Nova#Urban_legend

Why you gotta' ruin my good stories, bro?

[Steve Wurster]

Why you gotta' ruin my good stories, bro?

Ha ha! Hey, sorry, man!

[Rod Wolfy]

So, how does Felder do it without violating SawStop's patents?

[Steve Demuth]

So, how does Felder do it without violating SawStop's patents?

It's pretty interesting, actually.

A patent, of course, must prescribe a mechanism, not just an effect. The detection mechanism covered in Saw Stop's patents relies on contact with the blade causing a change in the charge carried by the saw blade. Felder's patent relies on detection of a change in the frequency of the periodic capacitance between the blade and a static electrode. caused by proximity of a body part to the blade, rather than contact. The capacitance is periodic due to the periodic passage of the saw blade teeth past the second electrode. Introduction of a different dialectric material in the vicinity of the blade changes the periodicity, which Felder's electronics detects. Saw Stop's mechanism for stopping and removing the blade relies on a the fuse mechanism in their cartridge, and the momentum of the blade causing the withdrawal. Felder's mechanism is completely different. It doesn't stop the blade, but rather clamps the blade electromagnetically in the operating position for normal operation, and then turns the clamping mechanism into a force to withdraw the blade by reversing the polarity of one of the magnets when a detection event occurs.

Now, I'm not a patent expert, and I certainly haven't read through the hundreds of patents Saw Stop has applied for and received, but I assume Felder has, and is confident that the mechanisms they use are not anticipated by the broad language of Saw Stop patents. It certainly seems so to me, from the ones I have read.

[Larry Frank]

How much does a saw with this system cost?

[Rod Wolfy]

It's pretty interesting, actually.

Now, I'm not a patent expert, and I certainly haven't read through the hundreds of patents Saw Stop has applied for and received, but I assume Felder has, and is confident that the mechanisms they use are not anticipated by the broad language of Saw Stop patents. It certainly seems so to me, from the ones I have read.

Thank you! Sounds complex, since I don't understand half of the terms. But if they're selling them here, I trust that the Austrians have done their research, too. I think Festool now owns SawStop, so in turn, maybe their patents? I wonder how long until they develop a tablesaw in turn...

[Norman Pirollo]

Interesting thread! This subject is of particular interest to me. Long story short, I developed a dynamic, electronic anti-kickback system a while ago and have made a small attempt at marketing it. It works and is geared towards new table saws. It would work exceptionally well with the blade retract and dynamic brake setups in the innovative new saws on the market. I have named it AKS (Anti-Kickback system). So here is a video for your entertainment, demonstrating the AKS system off and on (with results). Enjoy :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aokyS-p8MM&t=3s

[Jim Becker]

I think Festool now owns SawStop, so in turn, maybe their patents? I wonder how long until they develop a tablesaw in turn...

The parent company that owns Festool also owns Sawstop, Tanos, etc. "Festool" doesn't own Sawstop. It's unlikely that you'll see a Festool branded table saw with SS tech, IMHO...it's not what they do.



How much does a saw with this system cost?

"A lot".... :D

[Steve Wurster]

The parent company that owns Festool also owns Sawstop, Tanos, etc. "Festool" doesn't own Sawstop. It's unlikely that you'll see a Festool branded table saw with SS tech, IMHO...it's not what they do.

Festool does produce the TKS 80 EBS, which seems to be a jobsite-style saw with SawStop tech built into it: https://www.festool.com/products/semi-stationary-work/table-saw/575781---tks-80-ebs

It doesn't list a price there (only has a Wish List option, so not sure about planned availability), but it appears to be available on their UK site for under £2000.

[Jim Becker]

I missed that, Steve, and I'm surprised.

[Erik Loza]

So, the funny thing is that in Germany, Felder is a Festool dealer. You can walk into any Felder dealership over there and buy Festool stuff. I can see Festool part numbers in my database but can't order them. Interestingly, SS is not allowed to be sold in the EU. It does not comply with their safety norms. The way it was explained to me is that when that thing triggers, there is a possibility for metal shards or fragments to fly at the operator, which is not allowed.

Erik

[derek labian]

Interesting thread! This subject is of particular interest to me. Long story short, I developed a dynamic, electronic anti-kickback system a while ago and have made a small attempt at marketing it. It works and is geared towards new table saws. It would work exceptionally well with the blade retract and dynamic brake setups in the innovative new saws on the market. I have named it AKS (Anti-Kickback system). So here is a video for your entertainment, demonstrating the AKS system off and on (with results). Enjoy :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aokyS-p8MM&t=3s

Pretty cool system. Good luck with the patent and marketing it. The strange sound the motor makes caught my attention. Whats going on there?

[Ed Fang]

Festool does in fact have a "table saw" with sawstop technology. It is marketed OUTSIDE of north america - mostly europe. Not sure why as it would make sense. but based on the price point - it might not gain a lot of traction in the US. The base model is around 2k, but if you get the sliding table (small) and the aluminum extensions/fence etc - it comes out to about $3500 without taxes or shipping. I have one that I imported from the UK. it runs on 230v power and is rated for 2.2kw - which comes out to about 3hp. It uses its own blades at 254mm (not 250mm) and while the arbor is cut to standard 30mm european arbors, I think it needs to be 254mm as the 250mm ones are just small enough that the sawstop distance is a hair too far for adjustment. The cartridges themselves appear to be the same as the sawstop modules.

Its a really sweet unit. but I prefer the hammer k3 with the larger table.



So, the funny thing is that in Germany, Felder is a Festool dealer. You can walk into any Felder dealership over there and buy Festool stuff. I can see Festool part numbers in my database but can't order them. Interestingly, SS is not allowed to be sold in the EU. It does not comply with their safety norms. The way it was explained to me is that when that thing triggers, there is a possibility for metal shards or fragments to fly at the operator, which is not allowed.

Erik

Not sure that is the case, since the sawstop and festool cartridges and method for stopping are "identical". So if the festool technology is "allowed" then the sawstop one should be as well. Obviously if there is some other form or mechanism that prevents this - then that could be - like how the european jointer safety is not allowed in the us for whatever reason. . . ..

[Norman Pirollo]

Pretty cool system. Good luck with the patent and marketing it. The strange sound the motor makes caught my attention. Whats going on there? It is not a powerful motor, the system was put together to demonstrate the technology. This is strictly a kickback detection and mitigation system, unlike the fleash sensing systems mentioned. Unless you are referring to the "slow motion" sound. That is just the video being slowed down. I have an electronics background very early in my former career and was able to remember enough to apply some of it after many years. Norman

[Erik Loza]

Not sure that is the case, since the sawstop and festool cartridges and method for stopping are "identical". So if the festool technology is "allowed" then the sawstop one should be as well. Obviously if there is some other form or mechanism that prevents this - then that could be - like how the european jointer safety is not allowed in the us for whatever reason. . . ..

Hmm... I wonder if Festool took the ball and ran with it, as far as appealing to the powers that be, over there? Now that I think about it, that statement I made about their system was told to me maybe 10 years ago. I guess it could have changed. It's not like any machinery manufacturer would pay to lobby.... oh, wait.

Erik

[Rod Wolfy]

So, the funny thing is that in Germany, Felder is a Festool dealer. You can walk into any Felder dealership over there and buy Festool stuff. I can see Festool part numbers in my database but can't order them. Interestingly, SS is not allowed to be sold in the EU. It does not comply with their safety norms. The way it was explained to me is that when that thing triggers, there is a possibility for metal shards or fragments to fly at the operator, which is not allowed.

Erik

It might be because parts of the aluminum plate are 'smashed' into the blade, a fragment of aluminum could be tossed off (or maybe a tooth, but that would be like launching a bullet from underneath the plate). Kind of weird that it's not allowed; especially since the Bosch version is similar and violates enough patents that they couldn't sell it in the USA again. You'd think that the parent company of Festool would use their licensure to sell off or license the technology in the patents for a profit. I recall that the guy that developed the patents (Steve Gass) tried to sell it to other table saw manufacturers initially and they laughed him off.

I think the Bosch system is a little different, in that it fires the blade away, instead of driving an object into the blade... I wonder how the Festool system does it.

[Jim Becker]

Festool does in fact have a "table saw" with sawstop technology. I.
I acknowledged that in post #31

[Ed Fang]

I apologize. I replied in sequence before I read the later post. I edited my response with the content about the saw and removed quoting your earlier assertion.

[Warren Lake]

and this in a flyer from Normand

468418

[Alan Lightstone]

Is 1/4 second fast enough? Seems way too slow.

[Jim Becker]

I apologize. I replied in sequence before I read the later post. I edited my response with the content about the saw and removed quoting your earlier assertion.
Oh, not a problem. 'Just wanted to be sure that I stood down from my previous statement when my good friend Steve showed me the way. :)

[Steve Demuth]

Is 1/4 second fast enough? Seems way too slow.

Altendorf's system is very different in approach from either Saw Stop's or Felder's. Rather than detect blade contact, or very close proximity - that is, an accident already in progress that will injure your hand in the next few milliseconds - as they do, Altendorf is tracking hand movement across the saw surface, and predicting/detecting when your hand trajectory will result in blade contact. They can thus initiate blade stop and withdrawal when your hand is still several inches distance away from the blade. They only have to withdraw the blade fast enough that your hand movement doesn't catch up with it. It also relies heavily on the blade guard to prevent approach of hands from any direction other than directly toward the cutting edge of the blade.

[Jim Becker]

I like the idea of "pre-collision" detection and it makes a whole bunch of sense for handling panels and larger components, but it seems like it might have to be disabled for anyone needing to do actual work close to the blade.

[Rod Sheridan]

I like the idea of "pre-collision" detection and it makes a whole bunch of sense for handling panels and larger components, but it seems like it might have to be disabled for anyone needing to do actual work close to the blade.

Well Jim, the obvious response is that you should never have your hand close to the blade😀

Regards, Rod

[Jim Becker]

Well Jim, the obvious response is that you should never have your hand close to the blade

Regards, Rod
Oh, I don't disagree, but there are "those cuts" where it might appear the hand is close even though a push block/stick is being used. How the "pre-collision sensing" view things may come into play there.

[Rod Sheridan]

Oh, I don't disagree, but there are "those cuts" where it might appear the hand is close even though a push block/stick is being used. How the "pre-collision sensing" view things may come into play there.

Agreed, just couldn’t resist teasing you….Rod.

[Erik Loza]

We had a long talk with the Austrians about the other system at the Vegas show. For the record, I am all in favor of safer equipment and consider (the true German-made) Altendorfs to be outstanding machines. Here are some of the questions we wondered about:

-What long term issues might you experience in a shop environment with a camera-based system? Having been in eleventy-million shops, I've seen how much dust there and crud builds up on non-working surfaces. Would this affect the system's ability to detect unsafe conditions?

-Does the fact that their system is "active" rather than "passive", like SS or ours, bring additional maintenance protocols into the equation? Lenses to clean, cables to check, etc?

-Since the camera is mounted to the overhead guard, what do you do if you need to swing the guard out of the way to cut something like a large box or a tall vertical cut?

So, I just don't know. To me, the triggering principle for the SS (and now PCS) has been so well proven that I wonder if we really need a more complex mousetrap? Just my thoughts,

Erik