Harvey vs clearvue

[Carl Beckett]

I ordered a Harvey G700

Sitting on my garage floor is my prior clearvue. In the old shop I had that venting outside and the new shop does not have as much power, space, nor can I vent to the outside

So the clearvue is for sale

But then I thought… there isn’t that much published on side by side users. So maybe when I hook this up I will spend a day and run them side by side and evaluate performance.

Useful to anyone?

I don’t have an anemometer. Nor do I have a particle meter. But a long time ago was pretty technically inclined and do know how to run experiments.

Having said that I am not going to spend weeks running calcs and designing experiments.

But it would have helped me to hear of side by side experiences, so thought maybe someone else could benefit as well. Useful? Anything in particular to evaluate?

[Lisa Starr]

I'd love to have this comparison. Sooner or later I'll be upgrading my dust collector, and both the Harvey and the Clearvue will be contenders.

[Larry Frank]

Without the proper instruments, it will be difficult. Even with the proper instruments, it takes effort to get meaningful numbers. I think that there are pretty good performance curves for both unless your ClearVue is an older one.

[John Lanciani]

Hi Carl, i have all of the test equipment you need, (digital manometer, digital hotwire anemometer, amprobe, DMM, etc) PM me if you want to do this and I'll lend a hand or loan you what you need.

John

[Carl Beckett]

Hey John long time. Good to see you still around

Stay tuned on this project, it may come together soon (or not. Dust collection threads drive me nuts. But I have my own curiosities and willing to share with those interested)

Particle meter? This would be a key measure.

[Leigh Betsch]

I'd love to see a side by side comparison. Don't get me wrong here, I'm an engineer and run many design experiments for a living, I love to run experiments with real statistical analysis. Even with all the data generated here I still haven't read a designed experiment with proper statistical analysis. But having said that I do appreciate everyones efforts and the data is useful.
However I think rather that sudo experiments and data gathering I'd be in favor of just running some side by side tests and tell us which one you like better. Some quick opinion on which one cleans up the table saw, sander, etc. better. Some air testing would be interesting but not extremely useful for me. I could likely find lab data on that already. And any data gathered in your shop likely wouldn't be transferable to my shop any more than lab data. But, I'm all for any testing and data gathering you wish to perform and will find it very interesting.

[Frank Pratt]

The comparison would certainly be interesting. But about the only set of data that would be useful to other users would be a set of fan curves for both units. Do they already exist? With that, one can calculate what airflow will be with one's own duct setup. Noise level specs are nice to have as well.

When I was shopping for a DC, Oneida was the only manufacturer that had a real set of fan curves. Clearview didn't at the time, which cost them a sale to Oneida.

[Erik Loza]

Bearing in mind that I am no expert on dust collection. Just have been in a million shops and seen their setups. To my mind, comparing the Harvey to a cyclone (design, not specific brand) is apples to oranges. I know two customers with Harveys. Both bought them because of the form factor. One guy sent it back because it apparently could not keep up with his planer. Despite the mfr. claiming that it ought to be able to. I believe his planer has a straight-knife cutterhead. The other customer has a spiral cutterhead on his planer and loves the Harvey, last I heard. So, possibly the Harvey struggles with the longer shavings off a traditional cutterhead but not the tiny chips off a spiral head? I don't know. Cyclones will digest anything but are loud and bulky. They are so different in design and there are so many variables that have nothing to do with the collector, itself, that I think it would be hard to make an apples-to-apples comparison. Will you trade off more frequent maintenance and cost for the form factor of the Harvey? Or can do you have the room and can you deal with the noise from a cyclone? Is there a right answer?

Erik

[Jim Becker]

Erik, I agree that there will be some circumstances that the unique design of the Harvey might not be the best choice. Your point about a big thicknesser (or jointer) with straight knives vs one with spiral/helical is a good one. I've managed to clog a big cyclone with that stuff, although that was when the cyclone itself was marginal in size. (It was upgraded to larger) The Harvey likely will work great for many folks, however, that have more average needs. I'm on the fence about what to consider for the new shop once it's built.

[Erik Loza]

Jim, if I were setting up a home shop and had the money, I would probably go for a Harvey. But would also understand there's probably a tradeoff in efficiency for form factor/sound level. I wonder if those who are unhappy with theirs thought it would be the silver bullet when they bought it?

Erik

[Jim Becker]

Jim, if I were setting up a home shop and had the money, I would probably go for a Harvey. But would also understand there's probably a tradeoff in efficiency for form factor/sound level. I wonder if those who are unhappy with theirs thought it would be the silver bullet when they bought it?

Erik

I think your question is valid...sometimes the details are not considered hard enough for this kind of thing. I mentioned in another thread that I'd consider using the Harvey differently than a traditional cyclone. The latter would most certainly be in a sound reduced closet away from the main work area and use longer and larger duct work out to where the machines live. With the Harvey, I'd seriously consider putting it in the middle of the machinery to keep the duct length low...doable because of the greatly reduced sound levels that the Harvey provides. That would reduce the impact of what is essentially lower air flow compared to a big cyclone, lower duct work cost and potentially lower shop build costs if the closet can be eliminated. (Not convince the latter would happen simply because I have a big, noisy compressor that I like to be "out of sight")

[Erik Loza]

No photo to share by my customer who loves his, it's maybe 3' from the machine, under a work bench. I'm certain that contributes to its efficiency. I seem to recall him telling me that he rarely has to dial it up to WOT.

Erik

[John Lanciani]

Hey John long time. Good to see you still around

Stay tuned on this project, it may come together soon (or not. Dust collection threads drive me nuts. But I have my own curiosities and willing to share with those interested)

Particle meter? This would be a key measure.

No particle meter, but i do have a sound meter.

[Frank Pratt]

Particle meter? This would be a key measure.

Try this guy:
https://www.banggood.com/PM1_0-PM2_5-PM10-Detector-Module-Air-Quality-Dust-Sensor-Tester-with-2_8-Inch-LCD-Display-for-Monitoring-Home-Office-Car-Tools-p-1588436.html?rmmds=myorder&cur_warehouse=CN

It costs about $42 & works very well. You do need to provide your own USB power supply.

[Alex Kapl]

Try this guy:
https://www.banggood.com/PM1_0-PM2_5-PM10-Detector-Module-Air-Quality-Dust-Sensor-Tester-with-2_8-Inch-LCD-Display-for-Monitoring-Home-Office-Car-Tools-p-1588436.html?rmmds=myorder&cur_warehouse=CN

It costs about $42 & works very well. You do need to provide your own USB power supply.

are you using this one? defintely has a good price point to try it out.

[Frank Pratt]

are you using this one? defintely has a good price point to try it out.

Yes, I've had one for a couple of years. I power it with a USB battery, Velcro'd to the back, so it's easy to move it around the shop to where ever I'm working.

[Leigh Betsch]

Thanks Frank. I just ordered one. Although I got the one that hooks up to a computer and can data log.

[Alex Kapl]

Yes, I've had one for a couple of years. I power it with a USB battery, Velcro'd to the back, so it's easy to move it around the shop to where ever I'm working.

Thank you. Ordered

[Mr. Jeff Smith]

Looking forward to what you learn, subscribing to this thread. Thanks for doing a test.

I just built up a CV, so far so good, but the Harvey's are interesting.

[William Hodge]

What jobs does a Havey G-700 do?
It moves 700cfm air with a static pressure of 18 1/2", with a 32 gallon dust capacity, at 60-70 dba, for $3000, the G800 for $6,700., and the G1000 for $9,000.

A Grizzley 2 hp dust collector moves 1550 CFM at 11" static pressure. The air filtration seems to be the difference, unless one dispenses with the Grizzley "filtration" system, and shoots the dust into a bin. This ups the Grizzley dust capacity to whatever trailer you park out there. CFM and Static pressure would not drop with no bags. Decibels drop when the blower is bolted to the outside of the wall, rather than the inside. $900.

A Rigid shop vac provides 53" of static pressure at 203 cfm, when the filter is cleaned every few hours. Screams like a stadium full of Beatles fans used to, gets louder with age, until it reaches terminal crescendo in a tower of flying orange parts and sparks. $150.

Ultra CleanSC200 Central vac with bypass motor: 125" of lift at 121 cfm, direct vent to trailer. 65dba, put it outside. no filters. $400.

It sounds like the extra money is spent filtering dusty air to breathable quality, vs. exhausting the air and dust to a trailer, and adding more heating and cooling.


It seems like the Harvey is very good at filtering air.

[Leigh Betsch]

$9000 really? I thought they were about 2400$

[Jim Becker]

$9000 really? I thought they were about 2400$
Harvey has more than one model and the larger one is "up there" in cost. The smaller one is in the threes and comparable in cost to the higher level cyclones from ClearVu and Oneida...but I didn't look it up.

[Bert McMahan]

Harvey has more than one model and the larger one is "up there" in cost. The smaller one is in the threes and comparable in cost to the higher level cyclones from ClearVu and Oneida...but I didn't look it up.


The "normal" price is in the 3's, but if you sign up for their email list it goes on sale roughly twice a month (not kidding) for ~$2600.

[William Hodge]

$9000 really? I thought they were about 2400$


I had the prices wrong. The G700 is $3,000. The industrial 3 phase version is $9,000.

https://www.harveywoodworking.com/collections/gyro-airs?gclid=CjwKCAiAnO2MBhApEiwA8q0HYYRNG7jkA6qbMZD Gpxj0dM2m3fYCFsnAwGE0H_ZFibivpeY8cEYVuRoCvUcQAvD_B wE

[Carl Beckett]

Well, my apologies to all but this A:B comparison is not going to be possible. In my haste to get the shop setup I listed the clearvue and sold it. But I DID purchase the above referenced particle counter. It seems to work - I simply plugged it into a USB battery pack and it comes on and responds in a way consistent to what you would expect.

Some preliminary findings:

The largest readings in terms of particle counts was in my kitchen after cooking breakfast (bacon in a cast iron pan, eggs, potatoes...but I digress). Here it spiked into the 400 range for both the >.3um and >.5um ranges. The >1um range drifted up as well but in the 100 range.

Also when my forced air furnace kicks on it seems to bump up the counts.

In the shop I have only tried a few readings. The shop starts out below 100 counts across the range, in the 10-30 range after sitting for an evening.

This Harvey system is now ducted through a long run overhead then down to the floor to an 'octopus' of non-desirable connections to the MM CU300 smart all in one. I put blast gates on each function near the machine. It is by far not ideal - although I have the belt sander right next to the DC as a priority (thinking the belt sander is going to need the most airflow).

The particle meter I held in my hand while trying the jointer on an edge of a board. The meter doesnt move. Seems perfectly adequate there.
The planer moved the numbers 'some', but below 150 counts all ranges.
The tablesaw, surprising, also showed minimal movement of the particle numbers. Again below 150 although I let it sit for a while after making about 30 cuts on some pieces where it drifted to around 200 counts but then came back down. Note I do not have the overhead collection on the TS and it was spitting out sawdust towards the rear (relatively large sawdust particles that simply fall to the floor). So I still need to get that hooked up.
Sanding with the Festool/vac combo doesnt move the numbers.

So I still have to get the sander operational and try it. And although I did some work on the router table I didnt take numbers.

But first pass, it seems to collect dust to a level below that of my kitchen... at least in terms of when cooking certain items in the kitchen. I was surprised given how convoluted the run is to the TS. And yep, stirring up dust from shaking rags or moving dusty boxes around causes a bigger spike than running the equipment. (counts as high as 1000 range if making dust)

At the same time keep in mind this meter only goes down to ">3um", so the small stuff below 3um isnt being measured.

(please dont bash this very non scientific report lacking any medical comments on acceptable levels and/or experimental approach. I am simply sharing what I have done so far. I am not recommending or advising on dust collection in any way, that is up to the individual to educate and decide for themselves)

I will post some pics of the meter and ductwork etc as time allows.

[Jim Becker]

The little meter is a handy tool to understand relative particle counts for sure. I keep mine plugged into a USB port on the UPS that services my Internet gear which happens to be located in my temporary shop. I also do not have it on top of the tools so it's really looking more at ambient room air rather than a direct path from the tool. I find that more meaningful for what I have the meter for.

[Matthew Hills]

The largest readings in terms of particle counts was in my kitchen after cooking breakfast (bacon in a cast iron pan, eggs, potatoes...but I digress).

I've got a cyclone that collects bacon particles. Teenage son. Nothing escapes.

[Bob Falk]

No photo to share by my customer who loves his, it's maybe 3' from the machine, under a work bench. I'm certain that contributes to its efficiency. I seem to recall him telling me that he rarely has to dial it up to WOT.

Erik


I did a mini review of the G700 here on the Creek a couple months ago: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?294043-Harvey-G-700-dust-collector-review-(sorta)-after-3-months-of-use-long-winded&highlight=harvey

[Frank Pratt]

Glad you've got things up and running. I found the meter results to be very interesting & sometimes surprising. It's a great way to get to know the 'dust weather system' in a shop.

[Clifford McGuire]

Glad you've got things up and running. I found the meter results to be very interesting & sometimes surprising. It's a great way to get to know the 'dust weather system' in a shop.

I agree. And it's not just dust. I got this air quality monitor. (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078YY54N7/)

I was rubbing a coat of Trewax on a few small boxes I made. Suddenly the monitor was beeping and the TVOC counter was over 1.0 mg/m**3. That's something I wouldn't have thought about.

[Alan Lightstone]

Carl:

Which units are the numbers you are stating? AQI? PM2.5? PM10?

That Banggood (I have one too, as well as a Dylos) displays all of them (with the largest text size being PM 2.5.)

[Carl Beckett]

Carl:

Which units are the numbers you are stating? AQI? PM2.5? PM10?

That Banggood (I have one too, as well as a Dylos) displays all of them (with the largest text size being PM 2.5.)

This meter has an AQ mode - chart attached.

But the numbers I am quoting are the >0.3 and > 0.5 values on the particle count mode. See pics (live at my kitchen this morning - need to air it out in here!). The larger particle size counts do not climb at all when running the equipment (shaking out dusty rags will spike it though!), and I am more interested in controlling the smaller particles.

Net net is that although I was not able to run the side by side, the particle counts suggest the Harvey is doing a reasonable job.

I hate to start yet another dust collection philosophical thread, but a site I found interesting was here: https://www.shophacks.com/getridofthe-dust.html#/ It was making the case that collecting at the source is key, and if you can pull that off the large volume 'brute force' method may not gain much.

I plan to run a bunch of MDF cuts and test (just because that creates an obnoxious amount of dust particles). And I havent tried the belt sander yet. I do know the ductwork run is relatively lengthy/convoluted, and the sp values can not be where most 'general wisdom' is regarding what is 'needed'. But at the same time, it seems to be in control per this particular meter. The qualitative 'feel' that the shop isnt filing up with dust also supports this (be wary of qualitative testing! Hence the meter). The meter does only go down to ">0.3 um", but I might suggest smaller particles are more buoyant and thus pulled away with relatively lower air velocities. (although I have a 6" main, the branches are 4" - there is likely a balance of velocity vs pressure drop, and too large dia with low airflow might actually impede collection due to dropping below a min velocity - this likely plays out at the point of particle generation). Already sucked in too far to the technical debate, which I wanted to avoid.

Interpret all this per your own personal philosophy.

470736470735470734

[Carl Beckett]

After getting the overhead guard/DC on the table saw, I ran a test to see how effective it was. Very simple test.

The meter sits about 4ft in front of the saw on a table. With both the overhead and the under port open, the BEFORE numbers on the particle meter:
471737

The AFTER 10 cuts of 1/2" MDF:
471738

Effectively no change at all. I didnt even bother testing before the overhead was in place because it creates a cloud of dust when cutting the MDF with no top collection.

Next time I will run a test with the DC turned off just as a control reference.

[Carl Beckett]

This particle meter continues to be interesting. My highest ever reading today:

473616

This was in my kitchen approximately 1 hour after cooking a burger on the stovetop.

The workshop has never gotten to anything close to these values.