Widening a groove

[Eric Rathhaus]

Hi - I'm finishing the tool tray for my bench, which has tongue and groove assembly on three sides. When I try to dry fit it, the tongue doesn't seat properly. Upon examination it appears that part of the tongue isn't lining up perfectly with the groove. The tongue is already pretty thin so that I don't want to remove material from the tongue. I tried moving in the fence on my plow plane just a bit in an attempt to widen the groove slightly where there's the seating problem. But I couldn't get it to work. The metal gate kept slipping into the groove so that I couldn't take off any wood. Any suggestions on another way to tackle this problem or another method for using the plow plane to widen the groove? N.B. I first tried using the next largest iron with no success, and I really only want to widen the groove on one side.

Thanks.

Eric

[Stephen Rosenthal]

This is a perfect example of a tool that’s rarely needed, but when you need it you REALLY need it. I’m referring to the LN or Stanley 98 & 99 side rabbet planes. Stanley made another version (#79) and LV makes a version similar to the #79. I suppose there are other less precise methods, but these are the de facto go-to tools for your dilemma. I’ve got the LNs, which are delightful to use but I believe no longer being produced, but all of the above appear quite often on the used market and the LV version is still available.

[Jack Frederick]

I just finished fabricating laying some replacement VGF t&g flooring that had to tie in to old existing flooring. In the few instances where necessary the LN 98 & 99 side rabbit planes were invaluable. Stephen’s first sentence tells the story, but he could have bold faced the REALLY. I’ve had the pair for years and have used them occasionally, but they made a difficult job quite simple and I doubt I would have some up with as good a result without them.

[Jim Koepke]

+1 pm what Stephen says about side rabbets.

Here is an old post with someone making their own > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?133060-Home-made-side-rabbet-plane

Whether you make one or end up purchasing these they are handy to have:

468242

Here is an old post > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?116419 < with more information on side rabbets (and other planes). The side rabbets are in the 18th post if you preferences are set to viewing posts in chronological order.

jtk

[Phil Mueller]

Is it a rabbet or a groove? A rabbet can be widend with the planes mentioned above or a shoulder plane, a card scraper, or a router plane. For a groove, where you only want to remove material from one side, I would likely just scribe it and work down the length with a wide chisel.

[Warren Mickley]

We usually just narrow the tongue, but since you don’t want to do that, here is another way.

Set your marking gauge to where you want the edge of the groove to be, maybe 1/32 from the old edge, and score a line. Then put a 1” chisel right in the score line and cut straight in. You might be able to cut a single ribbon the length of the groove.

[Derek Cohen]

The side rebate planes are my go-to, however another way - when there is a smidgeon to remove and a chisel, as Warren suggests, is too much material - is to use a Japanese cutting/knife gauge or a sharp wheel gauge. Set one to take a fine slither off the one side of the groove. Do this in several passes, not one. Light to start and progressively heavier strokes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

We usually just narrow the tongue, but since you don’t want to do that, here is another way.

Set your marking gauge to where you want the edge of the groove to be, maybe 1/32 from the old edge, and score a line. Then put a 1” chisel right in the score line and cut straight in. You might be able to cut a single ribbon the length of the groove.


The side rebate planes are my go-to, however another way - when there is a smidgeon to remove and a chisel, as Warren suggests, is too much material - is to use a Japanese cutting/knife gauge or a sharp wheel gauge. Set one to take a fine slither off the one side of the groove. Do this in several passes, not one. Light to start and progressively heavier strokes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Some folks have steady enough hands to be wood surgeons. :D

Mine are steady enough to be a wood butcher. :eek:

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

Agree with others on side rabbet plane or chisel.

Woodcraft sells a side rabbet plane for $89 if you prefer to buy "new". I own one and it works fine.
LV also has a nice one for $146, but it's out of stock until February.
And I see a Stanley 98 on the auction site for $65.

[Eric Rathhaus]

Thanks, everyone. I looked around and found a record side rabbet plane with a depth stop. I'll let you know if it works out.

[Tom M King]

Should work fine. I sharpen such small cutters on the sides of the stones, so as not to put wear on a small part of the face. Just might save an otherwise extra flattening. I just sit the stones up on edge. Of course, if you're using some sort of jig, that won't work the best.

[Eric Rathhaus]

Did I mention that the groove is 5 1/2 ft long? That's why I'm opting to use a plane instead of a chisel.

[Jim Koepke]

Did I mention that the groove is 5 1/2 ft long? That's why I'm opting to use a plane instead of a chisel.

You will likely find the side rabbet a great addition to your tool box.

jtk

[Luke Dupont]

We usually just narrow the tongue, but since you don’t want to do that, here is another way.

Set your marking gauge to where you want the edge of the groove to be, maybe 1/32 from the old edge, and score a line. Then put a 1” chisel right in the score line and cut straight in. You might be able to cut a single ribbon the length of the groove.


This is exactly what I would do too. Simple and effective.

[Richard Verwoest]

I know I'm late to this party....but....you could fill the grove with a sacrificial strip, re-cut the grove, then remove whatever is left of the strip.

Richard

[Charles Guest]

Hell, I'd just remake the part and do it right. This is way more cost-effective in time and $ than waiting around bidding and receiving a vintage side rabbet plane. I don't know what you've built your bench out of, but assuming it's not Claro walnut or something of the same ilk, just knock out a new part and be done with it.

There's a time for fixing a mistake. This isn't one of them.

If you do decide to fix it, then the post right above has it right -- fill the groove and re-run it is the way to go. Use an electric router.

If the tongue is honked up too, ended up off a number that would correspond to the correct cutter for the groove, remake it as well.

Good learning experience.

Always groove first and then cut the tongue to fit. If whatever you're using to cut the groove is somehow wobbling on you and making the groove wider than the cutter then work on technique. If the edge the fence is registered to isn't straight and square to the surface you're grooving, your groove is going to be screwed up. Back to basics and properly four-squaring stock. Same admonitions apply to the board getting the tongue -- needs to be processed accurately.

Groovy? Yep.

[James Pallas]

On a long grove like that a side rabbet would be good to have. I think your best bet is a cutting gauge. For next time I would make sure I could trim the tongue a bit. I do own a side rabbet but every time I get it out I whisper to myself “You screwed that one up buddy”.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

Hell, I'd just remake the part and do it right. This is way more cost-effective in time and $ than waiting around bidding and receiving a vintage side rabbet plane.

In my early days of wood working there was a lot more time in my bank than there was money. Fixing mistakes is often how one learns to avoid mistakes. Much of my learning, that wasn't from reading, comes from making mistakes. My learning is still ongoing.


On a long grove like that a side rabbet would be good to have. I think your best bet is a cutting gauge. For next time I would make sure I could trim the tongue a bit. I do own a side rabbet but every time I get it out I whisper to myself “You screwed that one up buddy”.
Jim

A side rabbet has been a useful tool on many projects. The width of my plow blades do not always match the thickness of my lumber. Sometimes they are nice to knock the fuzzies off of a groove's or dado's walls when working with swirling grain.

jtk

[James Pallas]

I’m not sure where i picked it up a long time ago. I almost always make tongue and groove, even on drawer bottoms and backs, with the tongue being inside the edges. I find it usually makes a cleaner joint. Just for the fact that it is far more difficult to trim a groove than taking a little bit with a rabbet or shoulder plane on the tongue. Qualify that by saying, at least for me.
Jim

[Eric Rathhaus]

I appreciate that starting over is often better, but in this case I can't start over as yellow pine can't be easily sourced in California. It's also a large panel so the cost of a new piece is a consideration. Any modifications I use to make it work won't be seen as they will appear on the underside of the tool tray.

[Warren Mickley]

I appreciate that starting over is often better, but in this case I can't start over as yellow pine can't be easily sourced in California. It's also a large panel so the cost of a new piece is a consideration. Any modifications I use to make it work won't be seen as they will appear on the underside of the tool tray.

I mentioned earlier a method using a marking gauge and chisel. Some have cautioned that this is difficult or time consuming.

About 35 years ago a woman I know had some bookshelves made with grooves to accept some tracks for adjustable shelves. The grooves were just a little too narrow for the metal tracks. There were about 30 feet of grooves altogether. I scored a line with a marking gauge, handed her a chisel, and we both went at it. She was about 50 years old and had never used a chisel before. She could not get over how easy it was to widen the grooves. What had seemed hopeless was not that difficult. The hard part is using a marking gauge.

[Eric Rathhaus]

Warren, of course she had the advantage of having you there . :) So you judge it as easy to use the marking gauge and chisel method as a side-rabbet plane?

[Charles Guest]

I appreciate that starting over is often better, but in this case I can't start over as yellow pine can't be easily sourced in California. It's also a large panel so the cost of a new piece is a consideration. Any modifications I use to make it work won't be seen as they will appear on the underside of the tool tray.

Fill it and then route it. Check tongue fit in a groove routed on some scrap first. I still suspect the tongue is off the number, but I hope I'm wrong.

When you make your filler piece, it needs to obviously be a snug fit from side to side but also proud of the surface as well -- plane it down flush and then route it.

You could also use a marking knife, utility knife, etc. to widen the groove. You don't even need a chisel. Just run the knife against a straightedge set so that bare tissue is removed and keep making passes with the knife until you get all the way to the bottom of the groove. If only a smidgen needs to be removed, you can take it off one wall. If more than a smidgen-- take it off both walls as equally as you can. You can also use an iron from your No. 4 as a knife to run against the straightedge. The iron from your 78 is also a handy size and can well as a *temporary* marking knife, a chisel too - but used as a knife. You really just want to knife the tissue away by running it against a straightedge. This is your second best chance to leave a really clean wall. Best chance if fill and route.

[Eric Rathhaus]

Hi Charles - I can't fill it in and cut a new groove as it's already glued up as the long side of the three that will receive the panel. So I have to fix it in situ. I think you're right that the tongue is off or that the piece with the tongue is slightly twisted.I'm hesitant to take something off of the tongue as it's already fairly thin (1/4") and will need to hold the long side.

[Jim Koepke]

You could also use a marking knife, utility knife, etc. to widen the groove.

One could possibly also glue a piece of sand paper to a thin piece of wood or metal and run that back and forth inside the groove.

There is likely an overabundance of ways this can be done. Some are easier, less work and less stressful than others.

jtk