Dados on table saw vs Groover on shaper

[Dan Friedrichs]

What are the pros/cons of using a dado blade in a table saw vs a grooving cutter on a shaper? I can see how the shaper could be used for end-grain cuts on long stock, but are there other applications where one is superior?

(trying to justify why I need an adjustable shaper groover when I already have a dado set :) )

[Brian Holcombe]

All of the above, depending.

I ran a few thousand feet of dados last week and used the table saw with guide rollers. The parts I made would have probably been best cut with a moulder but would not have been able to be cut on a shaper (I don’t have one on any case) due to the offset from the edge.

[Mel Fulks]

Can’t come up with much, but sometimes a dado set is used to make a “decorative “ cut, in that case a carbide shaper cutter gives a cut without
“bat-wing” corners. You have to be careful with dado sets , they are so easily damaged by clanging together. Even though they are
expensive some just don’t have the patience to handle them.

[Kevin Jenness]

Depends on the location and orientation of the groove in the work. Shapers are better for edge work but the height of the groove above the table is limited. With a tablesaw you can locate a groove anywhere on the face limited by the rip fence capacity. Grooving an edge on the saw relies on the stiffness and squareness of the fence for accuracy. It's easier to keep a powerfeed set up on a shaper, and that is a real plus for safety and consistency.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Dan, one case where I use an adjustable groover is when the dado set won’t go thin enough, I run into this with glass or thinner veneered panels.

I bought a 30mm spindle for my shaper so I can use the dado on it.

The other times I use a groover are for cutting both cheeks of a tenon simultaneously, or when the dado doesn’t have a deep enough cut…..Regards, Rod

[Mike King]

There are a few advantages of an adjustable groover. First, the groover has knickers on it to give a very clean cut. Second, they give flat bottoms, although the knicker may leave a very minor indentation, as opposed to the "bat ears" that come from a dado set. Third, they are designed to be used with and come with spacers that allow you to fine tune the width of the groove usually to a tenth of a millimeter.

Some table saws accept adjustable groovers. And as said before by others, there are other considerations as to table saw versus shaper. But as far as I'm concerned, an good quality adjustable groover will beat any dado set hands down.

Here's a video by David Best talking about adjustable groovers.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBJ2cV5W688

[Warren Lake]

nah

Not all have bat ears depends on the set, depends on who sharpens
and just when is an issue only once ever had that and cutting rabbets at the end dont want to loose any material so use a wider dadoe than the rabbet
I have spacers from the shaper that are better than supplied dadoe sets all made from shim stock, shims are often used on dadoe blades
I have negative rake dadoes for cross grain cutting plywood, they cut clean,

A dadoe set can go from less than 1/4", if it came with shims and you remove them, with all the chippers can go to 13/16"

I doubt you have a set of groovers that can cover that range of dadoe widths.

[Michael Schuch]

What are the pros/cons of using a dado blade in a table saw vs a grooving cutter on a shaper? I can see how the shaper could be used for end-grain cuts on long stock, but are there other applications where one is superior?

(trying to justify why I need an adjustable shaper groover when I already have a dado set :) )

You can only cut grooves (I will call dados "grooves" when cut on a shaper for clarity even though they are all dados or rabbets) on a shaper on stock that is a few inches high. You can cut dados on a table saw in much bigger panels.

I will cut groves on my shaper on smaller stock because I have a power feeder on the shaper which feels safer to me than cutting them on a table saw especially with stock of smaller dimensions. It is also quicker to not have to switch between a dado stack and a regular blade on the table saw.

For cutting end grain groves on a shaper use a sled and a backer board to reduce tear out. This works quite well.

I have a variety of straight shaper cutters of different widths but have never found a reason the spend a bunch of money on a variable grooving shaper cutter for my hobby shop. I have an 8" Freud dado stack and a 10" Amana dado stack (with 1" bore) that I use on my table saws and radial arm saw. Both of these dado sets cut very flat bottoms with very minimal tear-out if any. For most everything I do I find these sufficient. If I needed groves in a lot of stock I would consider a fixed width shaper cutter for the job so I can use the power feeder like mentioned above.

[Rod Sheridan]

My dado set doesn’t leave bat ears and it produces a Avery flat and square cut….Rod.

[Warren Lake]

Who is Avery?

Whats wrong with Bats? Oh wait

[Jared Sankovich]

Hopefully this pic works as apparently my subscription isn't on auto renewal.

If you need a perfect / clean cut, the groover is the way to go
468199
468200

[Mike King]

17/64" to 25/32"?

[brent stanley]

In my experience, you typically get a cleaner cut from an adjustable groover, and I also feel much safer doing stopped rebates or grooves on the shaper than on the table saw where you are dropping the material down onto the table/cutter.

[Warren Lake]

you have a groover set that goes from 17/64 = .2656 and all the way to 25/32 which is .7813 ??

Then what do you do with 1/4" bottoms or others that are never 1/4", last baltic I measured was .2305

My Galt which are drilled out to 1 1/4" for shapers go to .2285 which pretty much covers all the new world stuff. Every Dadoe manufacturer will be a bit different, these were my first set long ago. I use 3/8 for most drawer bottoms not a concern for me. Usually back cut.

Your 17/64 wont cut it for a 1/4 or less bottom.

Insert cut cleaner, on the example shown back of a drawer at the bottom dadoes will do that fine, maybe not as clean but close.

Safer as well dropping on, coming from dadoe blades from the beginning im used to that so better is a bonous. This stuff wasnt around back then.

If I read this right you need two to three adjustable groover sets to cover the range the Galt 8" Dadoes.

[Mike King]

here is the set I used for the dimensions. It has three pieces and you adjust the width with shims.

https://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Tongue-and-groove-cutters/Adjustable-Dado-Cutter-for-Saw-Unit-RB-HW.html?force_sid=jgfteac4ap4pk9md9ousr10ap4

You can also use the 225mm adjustable groovers from Rangate.

[Jared Sankovich]

you have a groover set that goes from 17/64 = .2656 and all the way to 25/32 which is .7813 ??

Then what do you do with 1/4" bottoms or others that are never 1/4", last baltic I measured was .2305

My Galt which are drilled out to 1 1/4" for shapers go to .2285 which pretty much covers all the new world stuff. Every Dadoe manufacturer will be a bit different, these were my first set long ago. I use 3/8 for most drawer bottoms not a concern for me. Usually back cut.

Your 17/64 wont cut it for a 1/4 or less bottom.

Insert cut cleaner, on the example shown back of a drawer at the bottom dadoes will do that fine, maybe not as clean but close.

Safer as well dropping on, coming from dadoe blades from the beginning im used to that so better is a bonous. This stuff wasnt around back then.

If I read this right you need two to three adjustable groover sets to cover the range the Galt 8" Dadoes.

4 to 15 is a common 3pc groover size. 8 to 15, 12 to 24, 20 to 40, 25 to 50 and 30 to 60 are all readily available, along with center plates to expand the range on some of the groovers.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Thanks all for the input! Very much appreciated.

[Warren Lake]

can you explain that, I typed up a response last night and it timed out and was lost so much for the time, Based on one manufacturer to cut from a drawer bottom to a 3/4" dadoe you would need four sets. Ive only ever seen them come in two pieces.

Are you saying the set shown is three pieces or four pieces or you are buying two sets. I typed all all the ranges from one manufacturer and from low to high there were four sets, maybe I didnt see some overlap size wise

Give me a bottom number to a top number in groovers one set can do. Baltic Birch quarter measured .2305 and my dadoes two chippers were .2285 and go up to or over 13/16".

[Jared Sankovich]

can you explain that, I typed up a response last night and it timed out and was lost so much for the time, Based on one manufacturer to cut from a drawer bottom to a 3/4" dadoe you would need four sets. Ive only ever seen them come in two pieces.

Are you saying the set shown is three pieces or four pieces or you are buying two sets. I typed all all the ranges from one manufacturer and from low to high there were four sets, maybe I didnt see some overlap size wise

Give me a bottom number to a top number in groovers one set can do. Baltic Birch quarter measured .2305 and my dadoes two chippers were .2285 and go up to or over 13/16".

There are a bunch of manufacturers that make a 3 peice groover set that cuts a groove from 4mm (.157") to 15mm (.590") the 3pc set consists of two 4mm outer plates and a 7mm center plate.

There are other sets (2pc) in various widths where you can buy a additional center plate. Though those are less common.

[Mike King]

can you explain that, I typed up a response last night and it timed out and was lost so much for the time, Based on one manufacturer to cut from a drawer bottom to a 3/4" dadoe you would need four sets. Ive only ever seen them come in two pieces.

Are you saying the set shown is three pieces or four pieces or you are buying two sets. I typed all all the ranges from one manufacturer and from low to high there were four sets, maybe I didnt see some overlap size wise

Give me a bottom number to a top number in groovers one set can do. Baltic Birch quarter measured .2305 and my dadoes two chippers were .2285 and go up to or over 13/16".

Look at the link I posted above. 1 set with 3 cutters. (In reality 1 set with an optional 3rd cutter).

[Warren Lake]

I have six sets of dadoes five manufactures. My first set will let a cabinetmaker make a living and cover all they need to do from drawer bottom slots at what used to be 1/4 Ply up to 13/16", 3/4" really as that was a standard shelf size. im asking and think based on that there are no set of groovers that can do that. You are into multiple sets so that being the case then multiple cost.

The dadoes cost likely 250.00 or whatever they are these days. When I looked at one large manufacturer and took the time to convert to MM which I dont care about as I see in thous and imperial it appeared you needed four sets to cover what the one set of dadoes could do. Not all dadoes will be the same diff manufacturers are different minimum thickness for the two outsides.

Maybe I read that wrong and dont have time to go over all the measures right now. Its worth the follow up time.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Warren,

Whitehill Tools in particular makes adjustable groovers that cover a pretty wide range of sizes that are typically 3 piece and have shims / incremental adjustments down to 0.5 mm if I remember correctly. Plenty of other tooling companies make similar offerings.

They make one that goes 4-15mm (that’s basically 5/32” - 9/16+) and another goes from 15-29mm (which is 1 1/8+ on the top end.) There are many other combinations of sizes they make in addition but that’s just 2 examples. You would need to buy 2 sets to cover the same (more on the high end) size as a normal dado stack, but you have potentially a lot more adjustability within that range and arguably a better quality cut, though a power feeder on a TS with dado stack could be very nice. These groovers are more $$ than a dado set typically.

In my mind both are useful and valuable as there are plenty of times where the spindle height is a clear limitation to how far in from the edge you can cut and takes the shaper out of the picture, but also times where I would rather run stock of certain sizes through a power feeder on a shaper than over a dado blade.

Why not have both if possible?

[Warren Lake]

I have some smaller groovers and they work fine. They dont have as much resistance hand feeding as dadoes then they have more than high speed steel.

Basically what im hearing is there is no set of groover than can match the dadoe blades ive listed. That is what im trying to get clear on. Compare your costs in what you spend to get new tech to do what old school stuff could do. Too often new is better in some ways then falls down in other ways. I buy stuff as needed.

Lets get clear on cost of groovers and what you have to buy total to do what this set of dadoes can do

[Jared Sankovich]

I have some smaller groovers and they work fine. They dont have as much resistance hand feeding as dadoes then they have more than high speed steel.

Basically what im hearing is there is no set of groover than can match the dadoe blades ive listed. That is what im trying to get clear on. Compare your costs in what you spend to get new tech to do what old school stuff could do. Too often new is better in some ways then falls down in other ways. I buy stuff as needed.

Lets get clear on cost of groovers and what you have to buy total to do what this set of dadoes can do

$400+ on the 3 plate groovers, $300-$500 on the 2 plate groovers (generally)

They are insert heads though so they will never wear out, you just replace the inserts when dull.

[Albert Lee]

I have been using the groovers on my spindle moulder. they are very good if you have long pieces.

I have never used dado and I dont think I can ever have one... none of the saws I had allows dado, even the latest saw I ordered from SCM, top of the line L'Invincibile, you can't use dado on it. I was a bit surprised so I look up Felder Kappa 590 - same thing. it seems if the blade can tilt both ways then you cant have dado.

[Warren Lake]

what groovers will allow you to cover what you need to make furniture and at what cost??

Less than 1/4" to more than 3/4" as you are going need that range.

Still not answered, extra cutter so what its still short of the higher dimension in other words its not answered. Im old school tooling with new stuff added as needed. Too often old school does more, maybe not as safe and maybe not as clean, maybe cleaner at times. Glad I learned on that stuff The dadoes allowed me to do all ive needed over time.

[Jared Sankovich]

what groovers will allow you to cover what you need to make furniture and at what cost??

Less than 1/4" to more than 3/4" as you are going need that range.

Still not answered, extra cutter so what its still short of the higher dimension in other words its not answered. Im old school tooling with new stuff added as needed. Too often old school does more, maybe not as safe and maybe not as clean, maybe cleaner at times. Glad I learned on that stuff The dadoes allowed me to do all ive needed over time.

You need at least 2 sets to go from 1/4 to 3/4.

Cheapest you could do that would be about $750.

[brent stanley]

Without looking into it in great detail, I expect Jared's numbers are very close.

The other advantage of adjustable Groovers is they will always remain the same diameter as you don't grind away carbide to sharpen them, and thus slightly change the diameter. Depending on how you use the groover, this could be critical or not, but it worth thinking about.

[Warren Lake]

you need "at least" two sets so that means three?

Brent you are saying that two sets in whitehill will cover the dadoe set so that is positive but still people should go in knowing. The cost will be a minimum of triple or more to do the same range these dadoes can do.

change in outside diameter not an issue, changes in any side of tooth from sharpening only works in your favour on the bottom number and wont matter in the top number. The low on my dadoe sets are all different some dont go low enough to cover the thin materials yet the Galts cover it all. From drawer bottom to fixed dadoe.

thanks on that info

[Phillip Mitchell]

Quoting myself from earlier in this thread...


Warren,

Whitehill Tools in particular makes adjustable groovers that cover a pretty wide range of sizes that are typically 3 piece and have shims / incremental adjustments down to 0.5 mm if I remember correctly. Plenty of other tooling companies make similar offerings.

They make one that goes 4-15mm (that’s basically 5/32” - 9/16+) and another goes from 15-29mm (which is 1 1/8+ on the top end....You would need to buy 2 sets to cover the same (more on the high end) size as a normal dado stack...


I don’t think a single person is saying that adjustable groovers on a shaper are more cost effective than a dado set. There are some minimal perks that you could say about grooving on a shaper vs dado stack on TS with parts that have grooves that are close enough to an edge to fit within capacity of a shaper, especially with a feeder on the shaper and no feeder on the TS, but you are absolutely going to be into it for 2-3x the initial price for 2 adjustable groovers that can go slightly beyond the range of a typical dado stack. Modern shaper tooling is expensive compared to saw blades.

I will say that my experience having both is that the groover makes a more consistent and cleaner cut especially with a feeder, but also the actual cut quality.

I still maintain that both are extremely useful and valuable and I’m not sure anyone has said to do away with your dado stack absolutely in favor of a groover.

[Warren Lake]

I get about tooling costs. I have tons of it likely 20k plus in router bits alone then onto the other heads for shapers.

Its taken a long time go get to this point figure you will spend a minimum of three times the cost of dadoes to be able to do the same range. More for some brands of groovers

the cost aspect is of value for some people here and its part of the equation.

[Mike King]

I get about tooling costs. I have tons of it likely 20k plus in router bits alone then onto the other heads for shapers.

Its taken a long time go get to this point figure you will spend a minimum of three times the cost of dadoes to be able to do the same range. More for some brands of groovers

the cost aspect is of value for some people here and its part of the equation.

I've only said this two times in response to you so here is a third. The link I gave above to the Felder set covers 6.3mm to 20mm, so less than ¼" to over ¾". It is $1100. You can use it as a dado on your saw if the arbor accepts it or as an adjustable grover on your shaper. As noted by others and me, there are many other sets that cost both more and less than the Felder set.

Sure, it's more expensive than a stacked dado. However, it gives a better cut than a stacked dado and is easier, and more replicable, in it's setup.

And its isn't surprising that adjustable groovers provide less resistance than a stacked dado. I suspect that's because they are designed to limit the chip depth as a safety measure to minimize kickback.

Mike

[Warren Lake]

fewer teeth less push back, I feel the push back from the chip limiting with MECH cutters. Didnt follow the link. Its likely five times as much for the felders then to pick one brand that can cover the range.