Solid wood panels - what hand plane for smoothing

[Boris Nimipad]

Hi

Currently I mainly work with, not sure how it is called in english, solid wood panels – width longitudinal joint (finger joint) made from spruce, already sanded out from the shop with granulation 80. What hand plane (LV or LN) would be best for smoothing to get glass-smooth surface. I'm leaning more to LV planes as it seems they are easier to get here in Europe.

Boris

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[Warren Mickley]

Just make sure you buy a double iron plane, that is one with a cutting iron and a cap iron. The “low angle” planes are designed for beginners, maybe not something you want to pay a premium for.

[Boris Nimipad]

I'm a beginner regarding hand tools. I used to sand those panels with some kind of power sander, but now I'd like to start using hand planes instead.
I was thinking No 4 or BUS should do the job, but I'm not sure exactly which one as these panels are made from smaller parts with different grain and I'm afraid that some parts will end better than others.

[Kevin Jenness]

Can anyone honestly say they can get a glass smooth surface on those random knotty spruce glueups with a hand plane?

[Warren Mickley]

Can anyone honestly say they can get a glass smooth surface on those random knotty spruce glueups with a hand plane?

Yes, I have done this for 45 years.

The BUS is a particularly poor choice because it would require a high angle to avoid tear out, but would leave a scuffed surface on a tender softwood. You might as well just sand.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I'm a beginner regarding hand tools. I used to sand those panels with some kind of power sander, but now I'd like to start using hand planes instead.
I was thinking No 4 or BUS should do the job, but I'm not sure exactly which one as these panels are made from smaller parts with different grain and I'm afraid that some parts will end better than others.

I'm not sure exactly what you want to achieve. These sound like paint-grade panels and if you nicely hand plane them it may not have the effect you want. But I'm sure it is possible to plane them.

Like Warren said, a double iron (i.e. bevel down with cap iron) is what you want for dealing with random grain direction. You'll need to learn how to set the cap iron to control tearout, but once you have that down you can plane this sort of stuff without issue.

So we would recommend a #4, but not the BUS (which is single iron- no cap iron- and bevel up). Veritas makes at least one bevel down smoothing plane with a cap iron, the "custom #4".

Why the BUS is not recommended: you can either sharpen it at a low or high angle. At a low angle it will leave an excellent finish on softwood *if* the grain cooperates. If it does not, you will get tearout, potentially very bad tearout. All you can do is try to close the mouth down tight but that will typically not eliminate the problem. If you sharpen at a high angle, it will eliminate tearout, but will not leave a very nice finish on soft wood like spruce. A high angle does pretty well on very hard woods, but soft woods don't tolerate a scraping-type cut as well.

A bevel-down double-iron plane gets you the best of both worlds and no need to keep multiple blades with different bevel angles. You do have to learn how to prepare and set the cap iron, but it is no more difficult to learn than how to sharpen.

And to answer Kevin Jenness- I have gotten a glassy surface on crappy Spruce construction lumber. The blade has to be freshly sharpened, and the edge needs to be just about perfect. The slightest deterioration of the edge will result in fuzziness, but with a fresh new edge you can plane it nice and shiny and slick. You actually end up sharpening more often than with something much harder like white oak.

[Boris Nimipad]

I'd like to get better surface or at least as good as I'd get with sandpaper grit 220. Next I'll apply linseed +beeswax paste as a finish, no painting.
This panels are not construction lumber quality, they are meant for DIY furniture making.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I understand they are not construction lumber, I just mentioned that to show that "bad" wood can be planed nicely. But if they are finger jointed then you will get get odd discontinuous grain, which is why finger joints are usually reserved for paint grade trim. But that is your decision, it may well turn out nice.

You do need to be careful not to remove too much material, because the finger joint glue line can start to telegraph through the top surface. Avoiding tearout will be key to not removing too much.

[Robert Engel]

Trust me on this -- you will regret ever touching it with a hand plane.

Those panels are glued up with no regard to grain direction, not to mention knots.

Second, if you're applying linseed oil, you don't want a glassy smooth surface. Sand to 180, 220 tops, subsequent coats can be sanded wet.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Boris and welcome to the Creek.

Good advice so far on using a bevel down plane with a cap iron. My suggestion for smoothing such wood is to also take as thin of a shaving as you can. This with a blade as sharp as possible and a well set cap iron will get what you want.

If one area comes up rough try changing directions. Often one misbehaving area can be fixed this way and a thin shaving is possible against the grain in the "behaving" areas.

A #3 or #4 is your best choice. The way to decide depends on your personal preference or maybe hand size. Making decisions like this is difficult for me. That may be why there are two of each in my shop, though they are old Stanley/Bailey planes.

jtk

[chris carter]

Honestly, if they are fine other than being sanded to 80 grit, and you just don't want to sand to a finer grit for some reason.... I'd just go with a card scraper. I mean, why risk a problem with knots or reversing grain and wind up with something worse than what you currently have? Especially if you aren't very experienced with a smoothing plain and running into those kinds of issues. Sandpaper or a card scraper are the only foolproof options and will both very easily get you the finish you desire. And a heck of a lot cheaper than a LV or LN No. 4!

[Kevin Jenness]

I'm not sure exactly what you want to achieve. These sound like paint-grade panels and if you nicely hand plane them it may not have the effect you want. But I'm sure it is possible to plane them.

Like Warren said, a double iron (i.e. bevel down with cap iron) is what you want for dealing with random grain direction. You'll need to learn how to set the cap iron to control tearout, but once you have that down you can plane this sort of stuff without issue.

So we would recommend a #4, but not the BUS (which is single iron- no cap iron- and bevel up). Veritas makes at least one bevel down smoothing plane with a cap iron, the "custom #4".

Why the BUS is not recommended: you can either sharpen it at a low or high angle. At a low angle it will leave an excellent finish on softwood *if* the grain cooperates. If it does not, you will get tearout, potentially very bad tearout. All you can do is try to close the mouth down tight but that will typically not eliminate the problem. If you sharpen at a high angle, it will eliminate tearout, but will not leave a very nice finish on soft wood like spruce. A high angle does pretty well on very hard woods, but soft woods don't tolerate a scraping-type cut as well.

A bevel-down double-iron plane gets you the best of both worlds and no need to keep multiple blades with different bevel angles. You do have to learn how to prepare and set the cap iron, but it is no more difficult to learn than how to sharpen.

And to answer Kevin Jenness- I have gotten a glassy surface on crappy Spruce construction lumber. The blade has to be freshly sharpened, and the edge needs to be just about perfect. The slightest deterioration of the edge will result in fuzziness, but with a fresh new edge you can plane it nice and shiny and slick. You actually end up sharpening more often than with something much harder like white oak.

Good to know. I will try fettling my #4 and see if I can fail better.

[Tom Bender]

This is not the task to learn to use hand planes. It requires unusual skill at sharpening and using them. It is for experts. Get started with a block plane and move on from there. Even if you never get to that level, hand planes are wonderful tools.

[Tom M King]

I was going to post about the same thing that the other Tom just did. There is a learning curve to setting up, and using hand planes, not to mention the requirement of the skill, and equipment needed to get them sharp enough. You can't just buy one, and expect to get good results, even on wood that's 100% agreeable to start with.

[steven c newman]

Biggest thing? PRACTICE..Practice, Practice....

Old saying: "If you think a thing can not be done, do not interrupt the person that IS doing it"

New LV or LN planes are SUPPOSED to be ready to go right out of their shipping boxes.....maybe a few quick swipes on a strop to hone the edge. Set the depth adjustment until it no longer cuts.....THEN start advancing the cutter until it does just start to cut.....rub the plane's sole with a plain, old candle ( a few squiggly lines across the width) to allow the plane to glide along better.
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And even a plank of Ash will get glass smooth...tain't some mystic, Rocket Science.....Even the Romans used planes...
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It does help to push a plane along, by holding it at an angle to the direction of travel.....more of a slice, than a shave....

Also, since I usually make my drawer sides in Pine...I MIGHT know a few things about running a plane around on it. Been doing it about as long as Warren has....

a few years ago. The Boss wanted a larger Pantry Cupboard for the Kitchen...old one was too small...Got some Pine from the BORG..
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TALL, wide and DEEP...She keeps wanting to paint it...I keep hiding the brushes...Details around a couple knots..
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Doors and the sides are glue ups....I think the OP's "Pine" boards MIGHT be a better grade of lumber....as you can still buy "Cabinet Grade Clear" Pine....$$$...Pantry is out of #2 Pine

[Boris Nimipad]

:)

Thank you for all advices and tips. I think I will try to get LN no 3 and LV custom 4 at first chance I get. I'd just like to have at least one plane from LV and LN.
I never thought of card scraper for this job, maybe I'll try it if I get one.

In a future I might use those kind of glue up panels but made from oak so I'm assuming that BD no3 or no4 will also be the best for smoothing?

[Robert Engel]

:)

Thank you for all advices and tips. I think I will try to get LN no 3 and LV custom 4 at first chance I get. I'd just like to have at least one plane from LV and LN.
I never thought of card scraper for this job, maybe I'll try it if I get one.

In a future I might use those kind of glue up panels but made from oak so I'm assuming that BD no3 or no4 will also be the best for smoothing?
I think you’re going to get a lot of tear out due to shifting grain directions. Start on some scrap or the back side.

Let us know how it works out, but I’m pretty sure my advice ti leave it alone is the best :)

Tip - when you glue up a panel, orient the boards with same grain direction. Not always easy when trying to match grain, but if you’re hand planing it’s a priority.

[Kevin Jenness]

Well, I got sent to the woodshed, which was not a bad thing. I flattened the chipbreaker on my #4 smoother so it meets the blade cleanly, polished the nose and set it close to the freshly honed blade's tip, flattened the top pressure plate so it holds the chipbreaker and blade tight, and back-beveled the planes mouth so chips would not jam up with a close opening. I don't have any random laminated knotty spruce (nor will I) but I was able to get clean results on some quilted maple and reversing grain mahogany. So far so good, and thanks for the push.

I am primarily a wood machinist using hand tools at the margins. I have access to a wide belt sander so I normally go in that direction with gnarly wood, but it is nice to have the option.

[Scott Winners]

I realize I am late to the party here, but is nice to have options. I do have a Bailey #3 dialed in real nice, but I also have a suite of scrapers, and I got sandpaper. I think all are valid approaches, it just depends on what the wood requires in the moment. Card scrapers are very cheap for what they can do, I have some from both LV and LN. I prefer a carbide burnisher, but that discussion is a whole other can of worms.

[Jim Koepke]

I realize I am late to the party here, but is nice to have options. I do have a Bailey #3 dialed in real nice, but I also have a suite of scrapers, and I got sandpaper. I think all are valid approaches, it just depends on what the wood requires in the moment. Card scrapers are very cheap for what they can do, I have some from both LV and LN. I prefer a carbide burnisher, but that discussion is a whole other can of worms.

Scott, since my skill with planes has improved my use of sandpaper approaches zero. Mostly my sandpaper is used on the lathe or when working metal.

Other great tools for removing wood is rasps or floats.

jtk

[Jack Dover]

Hey Boris!

The issue is not with the plane. People like Mike or Robert (or may others on this forum) can get a glass smooth surface with a BORG plane (which is slightly better than a hunk of cast iron with some paint splashed). Your issue is with the material. You might find it hard to believe but there are woods that can't be planed, period.

Why do you think this board is glued and finger jointed? It's because these trees were not mature enough to produce a minimally acceptable board or made from offcuts. They have so many knots and glue lines to a square inch that I doubt there's any steel that will not chip - meaning you will spend 5 mins sharpening for every minute of planing. Maybe some M* steel from China at 65HRC would hold, but I doubt you'll get an angle low enough for planing this type of SPF, which really resembles a wet cardboard and glass sandwich. And this is the reason why they come sanded - even industrial planer blades can't stand it. They didn't bother to orient the grain either. Scraping pine has its own chapter in ICD-10 btw.

You have mentioned you're in EU (which country btw?), some parts of it don't gave access to the markets US guys enjoy. Having a premium tool is nice too. Just don't conflate owning a nice tool and being able to plane this particular board well, there's quite a long bridge between these.

You're correct about DIY furniture making, it's just it's the type of furniture screwed together with black drywall screws if you know what I'm talking about.

[Boris Nimipad]

:) About knots - these boards came in different grading. Grading A don't have any knots or at least it should have very little. Unfortunately the shop I'm buying from don't hold every grading, my boards are grading B with some knots. But they cut them to your measurements that's why I buy there

I'm from Slovenia, we don't have anything from LV or LN here, I order hand tools mainly from Germany.

Well, I'm using spax wood screws and dovels with glue and even some pocket holes :)

[Eric Erb]

Hello Boris! I have a cousin in Ljubljana! I had big trouble with hand planes until I took a class on hand tool woodworking. The planes were nothing special ( they were bevel down with a cap iron). What mattered the most was sharpness. These planes were perfect, I’d never even seen an edge quite like that. We made dovetail boxes and the plane went across the face and end grain perfectly. I hope this helps.

[Alan Schwabacher]

It's true that it's easiest to plane straight grained stock in the right direction, and build up your skills later.

But learning to plane wood with reversing grain can be done without long experience if you make sure to sharpen well and to properly use the cap iron. Look at the post by Kevin Jeness in this thread: he tried it successfully based on impetus from earlier suggestions in this thread.

While I like scrapers, partly because their simplicity appeals to me, softwood does not always respond well to scraping. It is probably not the best choice here where the OP wants a polished surface.

[Kevin Jenness]

Hello Boris! I have a cousin in Ljubljana! I had big trouble with hand planes until I took a class on hand tool woodworking. The planes were nothing special ( they were bevel down with a cap iron). What mattered the most was sharpness. These planes were perfect, I’d never even seen an edge quite like that. We made dovetail boxes and the plane went across the face and end grain perfectly. I hope this helps.

I would say that sharpness is necessary but not sufficient. I have been using hand planes for decades with middling results, and my sharpening has not changed much. What really made a difference for me in planing contrary grain was getting the cap iron well fitted and held down evenly on the blade with the leading edge polished and set close to the blade's edge.

[steven c newman]

I learned long ago how to "read" the grain...and then move the plane according....key being to work with the grain, and not try to go against it. Question I usually have...why are they fighting the grain in the first place? Secondly...see-through shavings are very nice and pretty to see...when one is try to just show off......however, such thin shavings fail to get the actual work DONE, unless one has the entire day to do the task.

I tend to work with either Quarter sawn Ash, or just plain old Pine....Mainly with 100 yr old planes.....Guess it is more about the skill of the operator, than who made the plane.......

[Kevin Jenness]

why are they fighting the grain in the first place?

Guess it is more about the skill of the operator, than who made the plane.......

There's plenty of wood where you can't just "go with the grain"- curly, knotty, ribbon stripe, etc. Some of the skill is in setting up the plane to deal with those ornery pieces.

[Andrew Seemann]

Slovenia? I'm jealous, not only can you go to Vesele Stajerke concerts in person, but you can understand them also:)

I don't know that I would pick knotty spruce to learn hand planing on, especially that nasty, splintery Nordic stuff. On a practical consideration, if your wood has been rough sanded to 80 grit already, you are going to be hitting embedded grit in that wood as you plane, dulling your blade as you fight those knots and the reversing grain around them. Card scrapers are great on hardwoods, but they don't work well on softwoods, especially spruce with its hard and soft rings.

Learning hand tool skills is great, and planing is a wonderful way to work wood, but I'd recommend using your random orbit sander for this project, and learn your hand tool skills on wood more friendly to planing and less destructive to your planes.

Navihanke actually toured the US and came to my state, but I was unable to make the show. Drat it all! My dad played accordion and I grew up playing the family polka band, so I appreciate the younger generations keeping the music alive:)

[Jim Koepke]

why are they fighting the grain in the first place? Secondly...see-through shavings are very nice and pretty to see...when one is try to just show off......however, such thin shavings fail to get the actual work DONE, unless one has the entire day to do the task.



There's plenty of wood where you can't just "go with the grain"- curly, knotty, ribbon stripe, etc. Some of the skill is in setting up the plane to deal with those ornery pieces.

Besides this Kevin the OP is working with panels made of glued up end cuts and mill scrap. The pieces are not oriented with the grain going the same way.

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The title of this image is, "If Shavings Could Talk." One thing they could say is, "if you want to remove a 1/16" from this edge it will take you a lot of work."

A thin shaving is helpful to not only determine if the blade is sharp but can be useful when setting the lateral adjustment.

A thin shaving for final smoothing doesn't create more work like a tear out prone thicker shaving does.

In cases with squirrelly grain, taking a thin shaving or two against the majority of the grain can tame the area with reversing grain while leaving the rest in great shape. This requires using the chip breaker effectively.

There is a time for making thick shavings and other times for taking as thin of a shaving as is possible. Unless of course one wants a rustic look rendered by tear out from monster shavings. :eek:

jtk

[Kevin Jenness]

This is a pretty clear video on the why and how of tuning and setting a chipbreaker for minimal tearout https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/cap-irons-tear-out-video/

[steven c newman]

Easiest way I have found to "read" the grain? Rub the tip of my finger along where I wish to shove a plane......think of it as stroking the fur on a cat's back....not Rocket Science...

[Kevin Jenness]

Another video showing the effect of different chipbreaker angles and depth settings on chip formation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_T37MJCDBc

[Boris Nimipad]

Eric: U, that's nice, I'm from Ljubljana also. Yeah, I'd go to hand planing and/or sharpening class instantly but there is nothing nearby... I found some in UK and Germany but covid...


Andrew: VESELE STAJERKE!? :D:D Hahahaha, yes, I can understand them, but I have never been on any of their concerts. Where did you find about them? Well, we have a lot of bands like vesele stajerke here. My coworker,24, listens to them and he actually knows some songs by heart.
I would like to eliminate random orbit sander, too much noise and dust. And hand planing is more satisfying when it's not making me angry :)


Well, if any of you decides to visit Slovenia - bring some planes, I am interested in purchase :) I'd order online but shipping from US/Canada is astronomical this days and there are customs as well.... I still might order LN no 3 when it's back in stock though