Time for a Change?

[Jim Koepke]

This weekend it is time to adjust our clocks back again unless you live in some of the Mountain Time Zone states or Hawaii.

For many people this is an ordeal, like all those folks who couldn't figure out how to change the clock on their VCR. My previous truck was always on standard time until the radio sort of went weird and the fuse was removed.

Many would like to just be on one time and forget about the biannual ritual of clock changing. It is a real hassle if you have wall clocks or pendulum clocks. Of then the easiest way to set the clock back is to just stop it for an hour. Going forward is a pain if it has chimes, especially if you have a few.

There is a discussion on the advantages of staying with one set time versus the other. Some falsehoods have been introduced into the story over the years. It seems many of us were told Daylight Savings Time was good for farmers. It seems many farmers dislike it since it messes with their routines.

Article at > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/03/opinion/the-argument-daylight-saving-time.html

Either permanent Daylight Savings Time or Standard Time would be fine with me. Changing the clocks has been a problem for me at times.

jtk

[Tom M King]

The hardest part for us is that our dogs don't use clocks. We've been feeding them a little later each day, in preparation, but they're still having a hard time with any change in being fed later.

[John K Jordan]

As an experiment one year I left all my clocks, wristwatch and all, unchanged and just got used to making the adjustment when I looked at them. In a short time it became automatic. That was twice that year I didn't have to change the clocks.
Of course with many clocks today the time change is automatic.

[Lee DeRaud]

There are a handful of analog clocks around the house that need to be changed by hand, but none of them are what you'd call "mission-critical". The ones that matter all handle the time change by themselves. First year with the current car, time change was only about a week after I bought it. So I slogged through the manual looking for the arcane clock-set sequence, only to go out to the car and discover it had already handled the change overnight.

The dog doesn't seem to care when he's fed, but that's because it's whenever I get up, which is usually around sunrise for both daylight and standard time. The cat always thinks she gets fed at least two hours late anyway...no point trying to adjust for it.

[ChrisA Edwards]

How do you think the time keepers at Stonehenge feel having to reposition those rocks?

[Mel Fulks]

For keeping a sense of time all the time ,I suggest a “noon mark” …or two of them . One inside ,reflected onto a ceiling,by a small mirror and one outside. Can be as simple as a stick in the ground at the end of a North -South line. It will center your days , charming devices.
Easy to find examples and info. And you will start to notice others. Some are pretty old.

[Jim Koepke]

How do you think the time keepers at Stonehenge feel having to reposition those rocks?

467492

In my younger days there was always a confusion about this. To me it seemed if you were going to fall you would want to fall forward so you could catch yourself. If there was a poisonous snake in your path wouldn't you spring back?

So one October morning after setting my clock ahead it was off to work only to find everything still locked up and dark. Realizing what happened it seemed like going to a local diner and having breakfast and coffee and a relaxing read of the morning paper would pass the time. No luck, it came to me it was actually two hours earlier. So it hit me, this would be the perfect way to change my lifestyle. There in San Francisco I could walk a few miles, get back to the diner, have breakfast and get to work. Doing this everyday might be good for me. So I started walking at a pretty good pace. Went up one hill and down the other side. Walked around the base of the hill and figured by now the diner might be open and started back. On my way I decided to take a short cut through an ally. While walking through there was a man jumping up and down on a manhole cover yelling "forty four, forty four, forty four" over and over. My curiosity got the best of me so I walked up, stopped him and asked what the heck he was doing.

He told me he set his clock ahead instead of back and got into work way too early. I told him the same happened to me. He then told me he decided to do some exercise and while he was doing jumping jacks when he got to forty four it gave him a unique 'enlightened' feeling. He said he found forty four was the number. No other number gave him the same feeling, only forty four produced the feeling. Then he told me to try it. I was a bit reluctant but he was very convincing. So I jumped up and down a couple times on the manhole cover saying forty four and said no, it ain't working for me. He was fervent about it saying I had to jump higher and say it louder. Okay, a few more times then I'm out of here. As I was jumping and yelling forty four he started cheering me on, "Higher louder, higher louder, higher louder… I jumped as high as I have ever jumped and yelled FORTY FOUR at the top of my lungs and was starting to feel a little euphoric. Meanwhile he pulled up the manhole cover and I fell in. He pushed the manhole cover back in place and I could hear him jumping up and down on the manhole cover yelling forty five, forty five, forty five, forty five

jtk

[Ron Citerone]

I think the change is good for kids not having to walk to school in the dark. That could be adjusted by changing the start time though. When working I never liked the lack of light after work to get things done around the house. Now that I’m retired that is not an issue.

[Grant Wilkinson]

Random thoughts.

Here in Canada, in Alberta, they just ran a proposal to stay on DST all year round. It looked like it was going to pass, until a few days before the vote. Then some scientists came out and said that, if the time was not going to be changed, it should remain on Central Standard Time all year round, not DST. This caused enough doubt in the minds of the voters that the proposal failed.

In Quebec a few years ago, there was a proposal to ditch DST, but only if Ontario and New York would agree. There is enough cross border traffic between those regions that the Quebec politician figured that it had to be all or nothing. He seemed to forget completely about the thousands of commuters who cross between Windsor Ontario and Detroit Michigan every day.

This week, Bell Canada had to issue an apology to its phone subscribers. It seems that, its computer isn't quite as smart as they thought it was and it reset all the clocks on subscribers' cell phones back an hour last weekend. Many screaming people were late for work on Monday.

[Jim Koepke]

This week, Bell Canada had to issue an apology to its phone subscribers. It seems that, its computer isn't quite as smart as they thought it was and it reset all the clocks on subscribers' cell phones back an hour last weekend. Many screaming people were late for work on Monday.

It seems at one time the clocks were set back the weekend of or before Halloween. That may have been the cause of someone telling the computer the wrong day.

jtk

[Frank Pratt]

Daylight Saving Time is a pox on humanity and was ill conceived. That is all.

[Dave Fritz]

Amish are on "slow time", they call daylight savings time, "fast time". Of course it doesn't matter much as they work from sun up to sun down.

[Michael Weber]

Jim Koepke, groan. I read about 3/4 of that before I finally realized it wasn’t going to end well.

[Jim Becker]

I'm not fond of the twice a year time change. It's not really a good thing at this point, even if its original intentions (whatever they really may have been) were honestly contrived. Consistency is better for our health...it's hard enough for some of us to deal with the shorter daylight in the winter months as it is and when you add a funky time change to the mix, it's even harder. In the US, there's been talk of eliminating the change for a long time now, but the action required to "make it so" keeps getting put on the back burner.

[Bill McNiel]

Jim,
Everyone should know by now that 42 is the answer to all the questions in the Universe

[Dwayne Watt]

I think the change is good for kids not having to walk to school in the dark. That could be adjusted by changing the start time though. When working I never liked the lack of light after work to get things done around the house. Now that I’m retired that is not an issue.

Kids walk to school any more? The traffic line up at the grade schools and middle schools in my area suggest otherwise.

[Scott Clausen]

I am in a business that has clocks in 100's remote panels. It was bad enough when those clocks had to be reset twice a year. Then manufactures started auto adjusting for the time changes. Then the powers that be changed the days that this change happened, more headaches. I would be okay if time was fixed and not changing twice a year.

True story. There was a time that I was dropping my son off a summer camp in Indiana and because we were right on the edge of the time zone, maybe hotel was on one side and the camp on the other side. Anyway to be sure not to be late I asked "what time zone am I in?" He said it depends "we don't observe DST so for half the year Eastern and the other half Central time zone".

[Bryan Lisowski]

Wow! This thread just proves how soft we have become as a society. Complaining about such a trivial task, especially since most clocks change automatically, you literally don’t have to do anything. The clock on the stove and microwave take 30 seconds to do, 15 of that is finding the cell phone.

[Ron Citerone]

Kids walk to school any more? The traffic line up at the grade schools and middle schools in my area suggest otherwise.

I guess it depends on where you live. In the suburban district I retired from 3 years ago,
Most elementary and middle school kids walked. There did seem to be more getting dropped off when I retired, but most walked. We had 4 1-8 grade schools. High schoolers needed buses or rides due to the location of the High School.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I would prefer to have DST all year long, but it wouldn't be fair to kids to have to be out for the bus in the morning darkness any more than necessary. As it is, there is twice a year that this occurs. Mid December just before the Holiday break and again in March when the time changes forward again. My youngest had to be at the bus stop at 6:45 am. And that was pretty dark in December, when Sunrise isn't until after 7 especially on cloudy days. When I visited Washburn ND the end of June years ago, sunrise was about 5 am and sunset was not until a little after 10pm Having that much daylight was a treat. I can't imagine having their winter when the sun is only up 6 or 7 hours a day

For urban and suburban areas, it makes sense to have DST. for country folk, it doesn't matter much. Although I understand the power grid conserves tens of millions a year millions a year with DST.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

BTW, in 1954, DST started the last Sunday of April and ended the last Sunday of SEPTEMBER
In 1955, DST was extended to the last Sunday of October.
In 1987, DSt began on the first Sunday of April and ended on the last Sunday of October
In 2007, DST started the 2nd Sunday of March and ended the first Sunday of November

[Brian Elfert]

From an IT work perspective I really, really don't want to change. My employer has many old systems where we might not be able to get updated time zone files. In 2006/2007 the team of eight I work with spent one to two man years doing the research and installing patches for 400+ servers and applications.

From a personal perspective I want to stay on DST year round if we change anything. It currently stays light until 10 pm or so at the end of June when it is warm enough to enjoy the long days. It would be dark by 7 pm in early August if we had year round standard time. The Minnesota legislature is looking to pass a bill to make DST year round if Congress allows. There is currently federal law that states may stay on standard time year round, but states can't stay on DST year round.

[Mel Fulks]

I think it’s one of those “we attack at dawn” things. You don’t want to have a few guys charging an hour early on a sneak attack. And with
standard time ,winged victory feels more confident flying around in a dress.
Days need to be symmetrical. That’s the beauty of “noon”

[Jim Becker]

Wow! This thread just proves how soft we have become as a society. Complaining about such a trivial task, especially since most clocks change automatically, you literally don’t have to do anything. The clock on the stove and microwave take 30 seconds to do, 15 of that is finding the cell phone.

While for most folks, changing the clock is kinda a non-issue these days as you clearly note, there are other aspects about the time change that are more concern...health, sleep, etc. There's really no good reason for it to continue anymore in today's society.

[Keith Outten]

Just saw this today:

DOYLE RICE | USA TODAY
"In the last four years, 19 states have enacted legislation or passed resolutions to provide for year-round daylight saving time, if Congress were to allow such a change, and in some cases, if surrounding states enact the same legislation," Jim Reed of the National Conference of State Legislatures told USA TODAY.
The 19 states are: Alabama, Georgia, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Idaho, Louisiana, Ohio, South Carolina, Utah, Wyoming, Arkansas, Delaware, Maine, Oregon, Tennessee, Washington, Florida and California.

In this year's legislative session alone, six states enacted measures to make DST year-round, Reed said.
The debate over daylight saving time, which was first enacted by the federal government during World War I as a way to conserve coal, has picked up momentum in recent years.
The Department of Transportation, which is in charge of daylight saving time, says the practice saves energy, prevents traffic accidents and curbs crime. But sleep experts believe the health effects of losing sleep eclipses the value.
The ultimate stumbling block for fans of year-round daylight saving time is the federal 1966 Uniform Time Act, which became law because of the random way states had been observing daylight saving time up until then. The act said states either have to change the clocks to daylight saving time at a specified time and day or stick with standard time throughout the year.
Another perspective: Daylight saving time is 'not helpful' and has 'no upsides,' experts say. Here's why.
The only power individual states or territories have under the act is to opt out of daylight saving time, putting them on standard time permanently. That is practiced by Arizona, Hawaii, Guam, American Samoa, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands.

So despite what the states want to do, a switch to year-round daylight saving time would require a change to federal law.
Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., has been in favor of year-round daylight saving time for several years. His Sunshine Protection Act of 2019 was an effort to end the twice-annual time changes and keep daylight saving time year-round in his state and across the nation instead of the current eight months.

The Sunshine Protection Act of 2021 was reintroduced by a bipartisan group of U.S. senators to make DST permanent across the country, and there is a companion bill in the House, Reed told USA TODAY. Another bill, H.R. 214 – the Daylight Act – would allow states to elect to observe daylight saving time for the duration of the year.
But "no significant legislative activity has occurred on any of these bills to date," he said.
When does the time change in 2021?: Here's when to turn back clocks on daylight saving time
A press release from Rubio's office lists the advantages of permanent daylight time, including a reduction in car crashes, fewer cardiac problems and stroke, improved mental health, less crime, increased economic growth and increases in physical fitness.
"Opinions remain mixed on the benefits of permanent daylight time versus permanent standard time," Reed wrote in a blog post on the National Conference of State Legislatures website. "The Internet is rife with sites extolling both sides of the debate. That said, states continue to vote in favor of year-round DST as the new normal."
Still, the actual March and November time changes are almost universally reviled because of all the accompanying adjustments we must make, such as coming home from work in the dark and the slower-than-expected resetting of our internal time clocks, the legislatures conference said.
Worldwide, more than 70 countries observe daylight saving time. It's known as Summer Time in some countries, including the United Kingdom and in Europe.

[Lee DeRaud]

A press release from Rubio's office lists the advantages of permanent daylight time, including a reduction in car crashes, fewer cardiac problems and stroke, improved mental health, less crime, increased economic growth and increases in physical fitness.
"Opinions remain mixed on the benefits of permanent daylight time versus permanent standard time," Reed wrote in a blog post on the National Conference of State Legislatures website. "The Internet is rife with sites extolling both sides of the debate.
The bit I always find hilarious in this topic is the "full-year DST good, full-year standard time bad" meme (or vice versa). It's not like work/school start times are set by federal law.

(Whatever idiot originally came up with the name "Daylight Savings Time" has a lot to answer for: I swear some people still have it in their heads that screwing around with the clocks actually changes the length of the day.)

[Bryan Lisowski]

While for most folks, changing the clock is kinda a non-issue these days as you clearly note, there are other aspects about the time change that are more concern...health, sleep, etc. There's really no good reason for it to continue anymore in today's society.

i would disagree that health and sleep are that affected by going back or ahead an hour. Our bodies can adjust extremely quickly unless you have a more substantial medical issue. I get 6 hours of sleep a night, so come Sunday I actually get 7 so in actuality I benefit from this. If you want to say that not having a uniform clock outside of time zones is just stupid, I could get behind that, but other reasons people mention is just ridiculous.

[Mel Fulks]

Wikipedia says Ben Franklin came up with the idea as a satirical joke. I find that easy to believe ,since he was fond of the ladies but not
handsome. So he said a LOT of stuff in jest ….hoping it would be seconded. Not-Joking Time- nuttiness started around WW 1.

[Lee DeRaud]

Wikipedia says Ben Franklin came up with the idea as a satirical joke. I find that easy to believe ,since he was fond of the ladies but not
handsome. So he said a LOT of stuff in jest ….hoping it would be seconded.
I suspect Ol' Ben would have just LOVED the Internet...


Time- nuttiness started around WW 1.
It looks like the idea has been around for awhile: George Hudson proposed it in 1895 down in New Zealand.
Can't figure out who first came up with that stupid name, though.

[mike stenson]

From an IT work perspective I really, really don't want to change. My employer has many old systems where we might not be able to get updated time zone files. In 2006/2007 the team of eight I work with spent one to two man years doing the research and installing patches for 400+ servers and applications.

From a personal perspective I want to stay on DST year round if we change anything. It currently stays light until 10 pm or so at the end of June when it is warm enough to enjoy the long days. It would be dark by 7 pm in early August if we had year round standard time. The Minnesota legislature is looking to pass a bill to make DST year round if Congress allows. There is currently federal law that states may stay on standard time year round, but states can't stay on DST year round.

UTC man..

I haven't changed a clock in almost a quarter century now. I don't miss it, y'all are crazy.

[Doug Garson]

Can anyone think of a reason why we can't leave the clocks unchanged year round and just adjust hours for offices, schools, stores etc. based on sun times? Lot's of businesses have "summer hours" and "winter hours".

[Malcolm Schweizer]

First time in 20 years I'll be dealing with having to set the clock back. It is a silly and outdated ritual.

[Ed Aumiller]

Quote "i would disagree that health and sleep are that affected by going back or ahead an hour. Our bodies can adjust extremely quickly unless you have a more substantial medical issue."

I worked (mids) night shift 12-8 AM for most of my working life... MAYBE, just MAYBE, your body can adjust quickly to the shift in time...HOWEVER, if you work different shifts, i.e. midnight shift or evening shift, your body DOES NOT adjust quickly... Ask anyone who works them... It is rough to begin with and with the time changes it is miserable for 2-4 weeks.. that is a lot of time when you feel bad because your body is trying to adjust...

Give us ONE time, do not care if it is EST or DST, just stop switching times....

Being retired it is not as drastic a problem..... unless you have pets / animals who do not know why there feeding / routine times have changed.....

[Jim Koepke]

(Whatever idiot originally came up with the name "Daylight Savings Time" has a lot to answer for: I swear some people still have it in their heads that screwing around with the clocks actually changes the length of the day.)

With what some people have held on to strongly in their heads seems to indicate many of them have little more than mush between their ears.

From what Mel, Wikipedia or even the NY Times article says Daylight Savings Time started off as a joke and we are all playing along, or maybe we are all being played.

Many businesses have winter hours and summer hours. To me, that might be better than changing all the clocks.

jtk

[Doug Garson]

I have sleep apnea, I spoke with a respiratory technician (think that's the right title) when I was getting a sleep test. His job requires working nights while his client sleeps. He said one of the side effects of working nights is a greater incidence of sleep apnea. Kinda ironic that someone who works treating people with a disease by the nature of their working hours is at increased risk to get the disease.

[Mel Fulks]

Year around DST. Sounds like the work of a mad scientist mad because he can’t afford a Rolex. “If I can’t have an expensive watch I’m
gonna make everybody’s watches inaccurate ….by a whole HOUR ! Then my Timex will be the worlds most accurate watch !! Ha Ha HA!”
Just a taste of a film script I’m working on. It won’t be inexpensive to make….so I might sell some stock….Yes I WILL keep you posted.

[Stan Calow]

My guess is that will complain either way.

[Jim Becker]

My guess is that will complain either way.

No guessing required... :) :D

[Jim Koepke]

So the clocks have changed but my body hasn't.

My bedtime is now an hour earlier by the clock.

My get up time, no alarm clock, is also an hour earlier by the clock.

My tummy rumbles an hour earlier by the clock when it wants food.

If it weren't for being retired this would be a real pain in the backside.

jtk

[Lee DeRaud]

I have friends who complain about the one-hour shift to/from DST every freakin' year, but somehow manage to handle multi-hour shifts from work travel and vacations without a problem. Go figure.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I have friends who complain...

Its all in the narrative: you could suggest they 'protest' and reference 'existential threat'.

1st World problems are a B%&*#. (yawn) And SO tiring. I switched from DST to PST (Personal Snooze Time). zzzZZZZZ

[Jim Koepke]

I have friends who complain about the one-hour shift to/from DST every freakin' year, but somehow manage to handle multi-hour shifts from work travel and vacations without a problem. Go figure.

Our minds and bodies become accustomed to our daily rhythms. With changing the clocks those reliable markers of our days shift.

Because of time zones, the sun rises and sets pretty much at the same time across the country and the world. It makes it easier to shift our orientation to the clock.

Though there is a common ailment of "Jet Lag" caused by traveling distances.

jtk

[mike stenson]

Jet lag sucks. Especially coming from Japan/China back to the US. There's something about arriving before you left that messes with my circadian rhythm. I'm not cut out to travel with The Doctor.

[Kev Williams]

-- just split the difference... Just have the entire planet reset ALL clocks at Standard Time plus 30 minutes.

problem solved :D

[Jim Becker]

Jet lag sucks. Especially coming from Japan/China back to the US. There's something about arriving before you left that messes with my circadian rhythm. I'm not cut out to travel with The Doctor.

Interestingly, I found the ~12 hour swing from Asia to be a lot easier to correct from than the 5-6 hour difference from Europe! I did a lot of travel to both prior to retirement. Everybody's internal clock is different I guess...

[George Yetka]

Perhaps a second house, with a second car, and a second watch. We'll show those bastards.

Im actually down to watches, stove, and microwave. Everything else is automatic. Watches don't bother me most are automatic anyway so I have to wind and set time anyway. As for the stove we have to set time 6 times a year for power loss anyway.

[mike stenson]

Interestingly, I found the ~12 hour swing from Asia to be a lot easier to correct from than the 5-6 hour difference from Europe! I did a lot of travel to both prior to retirement. Everybody's internal clock is different I guess...

I don't know why, but to/from Europe is always easier on me. It just feels like a long day, but I get back to my sleep schedule a whole lot easier.

[Bernie Kopfer]

The apparent fact that the majority of citizens would like to eliminate the time shifting we do twice a year indicates that we have a “people deaf” Congress or there is a monetary reason we don’t change the law. I suggest we follow the money since that seems to determine what Congress does.

[Wayne Collier]

There is good news...
At the current rate Congress will almost eliminate Standard sometime in the next century. Their solution will be to Fall Back on the second Sunday in January and Spring Forward on the third Sunday in January. This will be right after they name Kudzu an Endangered Species (Note: In the 1930s they paid farmers $8/acre to plant it).

[Curt Harms]

The potential problem I see with the automatic devices is if Congress changes the dates for daylight saving time. I have two clocks that don't need to be set at all. Bring it home from the store, plug it in and it sets the time. I don't know what they use for a source. I thought about WWV but my experience with devices that use WWV is that they take a while to get the time. The two clocks were nearly instantaneous. Do AC power lines carry some sort of time signal?

[Jim Becker]

Curt, the dates were actually changed a few years ago...

[Richard Hart]

While for most folks, changing the clock is kinda a non-issue these days as you clearly note, there are other aspects about the time change that are more concern...health, sleep, etc. There's really no good reason for it to continue anymore in today's society.

Huh-uh! No way.. I like being able to work in the garden untill after 9:00p in the summer. I'm no morning person so I'm asleep then regardless.

[Curt Harms]

Jet lag sucks. Especially coming from Japan/China back to the US. There's something about arriving before you left that messes with my circadian rhythm. I'm not cut out to travel with The Doctor.

This is very much an issue with long-haul airline crews. I read an article about odd hours sleep disruption. The study quoted said about 20% of people can adapt with no problem, about 40% could cope but with difficulty and 20% never did adapt. I found that plausible. I believe they also found that people who were early-to-bed early-to-rise types had more trouble adapting than people who were late risers. They referred to them as chickens and owls. The owls had an easier time dealing with circadian disruptions. I wish I had kept that article.

[Curt Harms]

Curt, the dates were actually changed a few years ago...

But when/if they change it again .....

[Jim Becker]

But when/if they change it again .....
At this point, if it's changed again, it will be because it will finally be gotten rid of. :) I don't think there's any practical reason to shrink the current "winter" window further than they did when they pushed the start later a few years ago.