Walnut Sapwood?

[David Westmoreland]

467477467478Is this walnut sapwood? Weatherby says this is a walnut stock according to their records. I always thought walnut was dark but I read some articles that say dark walnut is heartwood white light walnut is sapwood. Just wanted a second opinion for people who are familiar with wood.

[Mel Fulks]

I seriously doubt it. Might be maple.

[Jim Becker]

Certainly possible based on the second photo. More close up views that show actual wood grain and pore structure would be helpful for folks wanting to assist.

[Jamie Buxton]

Saw it. Walnut has a very distinct odor.

[Mel Fulks]

My doubt is just based on “never seen that before” . What some call “incontrovertible science”.

[Tony Joyce]

Weatherby Vanguard?

[Rich Engelhardt]

My Marlin 60 has a similar look to the first picture.
Mine is Birch.

I love the figure on the 2nd picture.


Yeah - no way that's Birch - not after seeing the closeups.

[David Westmoreland]

Mark XXII. 22 auto.

[Steve Demuth]

If it's walnut, it looks more like English Walnut (Juglans regia), which can be pretty white mixed with that sort of figure, than North American Black Walnut (Juglans nigra​) sapwood.

[Lee Schierer]

It is possible that it is walnut. The brown heartwood will get very light if exposed to sunlight for a long period of time (several years). Sap wood in black walnut is almost white in color. It is possible that the stock was made from sapwood, which would still be walnut.
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Here are some photos of black walnut that show the color variations.
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Note that English Walnut is much lighter in color than black walnut. Here is a photo of English walnut.
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[Alex Zeller]

It looks like it the walnut may have been steamed to turn the sapwood brown. By doing so the dark heartwood lightens up while the sapwood will turn brown. Not sure about that first picture though.

[Jim Becker]

It looks like it the walnut may have been steamed to turn the sapwood brown. By doing so the dark heartwood lightens up while the sapwood will turn brown. Not sure about that first picture though.
I feel just the opposite. Lee's photos back up my perception. Walnut sapwood is very whitish and with an oil based finish...typical for that kind of item...it's going to get to be that creamy amber tone seen in the photos. In the second shot, there is darker wood near the top that is very reminiscent of a curlier walnut figure and color.

[Jeff Roltgen]

100% certain from first image that it is, indeed, walnut. Just has about 95% sapwood, but there's no mistaking that grain and pinch of darker heart included.
IMHO, I would have burned it before burning labor forming it into a gunstock, as the confusion here attests - just don't use walnut sapwood, as the average consumer simply cannot understand the lighter cuts. Our brains are hardwired: Walnut = Dark Brown.

[glenn bradley]

I enjoy sapwood as a design element but rarely use it with walnut. Walnut lightens with time and the contrast can get lost without some effort with colorants to preserve the look. BTW, I think the stock looks great. I went out to the stacks to see if I had any walnut with sapwood in it. As luck would have it there was a piece at one end staring right at me. This is just skip planed but may help with the conversation.

With flash.

467510 . 467509

Without flash.

467508 . 467507

[Curt Harms]

100% certain from first image that it is, indeed, walnut. Just has about 95% sapwood, but there's no mistaking that grain and pinch of darker heart included.
IMHO, I would have burned it before burning labor forming it into a gunstock, as the confusion here attests - just don't use walnut sapwood, as the average consumer simply cannot understand the lighter cuts. Our brains are hardwired: Walnut = Dark Brown.

I've never used it or even seen it that I remember but what about Butternut ('white walnut')? That would still probably be called Walnut.

[Mark Bolton]

That pale color looks dead on the money for steamed Walnut in which case they count sap as allowed. We had an 1880 board foot pack of Walnut come in and the only thing I could land at the time was steamed and a lot of it was rejected (we had to buy more) that was almost identical in color to that stock. The steaming process darkens the sap and lightens the heart wood in an attempt to normalize the color (so they can sell you the sap).

Its very frustrating but on a purchase level to purchase unsteamed, all heart, your cost of material goes through the roof which is likely why they allow that material through.

[Mel Fulks]

That is interesting. Can’t help wondering if they use some kind of stabilizer since sapwood is said to be less stable. When I was a kid I was
interested in stocks and checkering and there was always a lot of ink about “stability “

[Mark Bolton]

The mill we pull from (2-5 million board feet on the yard at any given time, mostly all export) just tarps the packs of walnut under heavy thick tarps and pipes high pressure steam in from their boilers that feed the dryers. Its not uncommon to get boards in a pack of #1 common (they dont grade Walnut FAS at this mill) that are pretty much all sap that may have a narrow strip of heart down one face.

Been round on this here before, Walnut is graded under a completely different scale than other hardwoods allowing way more defect and sap than most would ever imagine. I have one other source that doesnt steam and you'll get much more heartwood because of that but the cost is about 3-4x.

[Mel Fulks]

Interesting stuff ,Mark. I worked in a mill that avoided the steamed walnut when they could, and they had no problem paying extra.
A lot of it came from WV. They did not use the sapwood for anything but paint grade. We would sometimes have to make wide panels and
they were carefully gleaned and matched on time and material basis. I am still surprised that sap wood would be used for gun stocks.
I think maple ,soft or hard ,would be preferable to any species sap wood. I didn’t realize that the word “walnut “was so powerful.

[Mark Bolton]

Id like to avoid sap too but when the work doesnt pay for it, it is what it is.

[Alex Zeller]

Steamed walnut varies by how skilled the mill is. It has to be done as quick as possible after cutting while the sap is still wet. It has to be right around the boiling point of water, too hot will dry it out, too cold will not allow the color to move. The local guy I buy from is small time and while he has 100k BF of various local species in stock he doesn't have a way to steam the wood. The difference looks like someone put a dark stain on the board on the unsteamed walnut compared to the steamed board.

[John TenEyck]

Absolutely correct, Mark. I cut a black walnut log today. It was 29" in diameter and would have yielded over 300 BF of lumber had I left the sapwood on it. I got just under 200 BF of edge heartwood lumber out of it. Gorgeous stuff - and a lot of slab wood for the wood stove. I understand why the commercial guys steam walnut but the colors and clarity in unsteamed walnut are superior in every way.

John

[Steve Demuth]

Note that English Walnut is much lighter in color than black walnut. Here is a photo of English walnut.


English Walnut in an orchard that has been pruned heavily responds to the pruning cuts by producing dark heartwood (just as, e.g., Boxelder produces it's characteristic red color in response to injury). Apple also does this.

So, e.g., this is also a photo of (orchard) English Walnut:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2026/2511/products/151488_2_x600.jpg?v=1634780613

[Mel Fulks]

“I understand why the commercial guys steam walnut but the colors and clarity in unsteamed walnut are superior in every way.”

When the rules are counter intuitive , be safe and get them tattooed… “ Steamed: not so hot” — “Un- steamed : really cool”

[johnny means]

The real issue here is that walnut's sapwood doesn't have the properties that make walnut a great material for gunstocks. It's softer, less dense, not as stable and less resistant to water damage. Sapwood and heartwood are just different materials at a cellular level.

[Randall J Cox]

Weatherby, being a high end, somewhat small rifle manufacturer, I'm sure hand picks their walnut for their rifle stocks. They used to be in Paso Robles, CA for many years but, like lots of businesses these days, decided to get out of Calif and I'm pretty sure they moved to Wyoming (if I remember right). Know this doesn't help ID the wood, but if the stock hasn't been replaced, I would certainly believe Weatherby.

[Mel Fulks]

I believe that it’s walnut , low grade walnut. If the company has some proven way of treating sap wood with a good stabilizer …or old time
magic they should print out info.

[Jon Endres]

Pretty sure that's walnut, but it's also (to me) a beautiful stock and rifle. I would love to put that in my collection. Plain, boring rifle stocks should be banned, not the actual rifles themselves.

[Mark Bolton]

Pretty sure that's walnut, but it's also (to me) a beautiful stock and rifle. I would love to put that in my collection. Plain, boring rifle stocks should be banned, not the actual rifles themselves.

I think its pretty cool looking as well but for a "Walnut" rifle stock, and this is just my personal opinion, that should have gone on some list of specials or a stock that someone see's and wants. The fact that its dead blonde (all sap on one side) and has a slight amount of heart/figure on the show side, and then you have that deep Walnut color up front... Its one that should go on a rack somewhere and not be sent out as a standard production stock. But just my $0.02. It would be the same to ship out a rippingly figured crotch flame in your production line and then everyone who gets a more uniform Walnut heartwood stock complains that they want one that "looks like that one".

I can only imagine it will get harder and harder for companies to source quality, thick, Walnut in the not too distant future (already is a bear).

[Gordon Stump]

I agree it "might" be walnut sapwood. But using sapwood on a walnut product with all that labor is risking having a disappointed customer. This post makes that point. A Lot of my walnut products have a small area of sapwood. I like the look and so do my customers. I use Watco Black Walnut to even things out. BUT......if one of my products has lots of sapwood and wild grain I will not ship it to far off places fearing having to pay for a return. I often send a oic first. Plus, sapwood is softer and can scratchy and dent easier.

The public thinks of walnut as the formica version of walnut. That is straight grain and chocolate brown or darker.

[Lee Schierer]

Years ago before I retired, the company I worked for had a number of award plaques in their front lobby. One of them was bumped and fell to the floor doing some damage to the finish. I was asked if I could repair the finish. The price of wood it was made from was blond in appearance, very similar to the gun stock above. I sanded the face and edges to get off the old finish. Much to my surprise, the more I sanded the darker the wood became. By the time I was finished it was obvious it was black walnut that had been seriously sun bleached.

[Mark Bolton]

No doubt walnut can get hit hard over time. Oxidation, sun. That doesnt say much for a brand new gun.

[Jim Becker]

I would almost bet that this particular piece was built that way on purpose for a unique look. Some folks might hang it as art; some would use it for what it does; some would do both. While I'm not into firearms, I find that particular piece quite attractive because of the unique wood look.

[Mark Bolton]

Agreed but all you have to do is google "Walnut Rifle Stock" to see what a customer would expect if they were to order sight unseen. Thats a stock that should be purchased off a rack or from photos. How the OP purchased who knows.

[Wes Grass]

I'd thought these were made in Japan from day 1. But they started in Italy, then to Japan, to the US, and then back to Japan.

A friend got a couple of the re issue lever guns. Stripped the synthetic finishes off, did some recontouring, and oil finished them. The wood on all of them was very light in color and required staining to make them 'look right'.

I have an early-ish 700 ADL with sapwood on the comb. Looks just fine to me, for what it is. But at least the wood was oriented to put it in the best place possible.

[Steve Demuth]

It would be interesting to see the end grain beneath the butt plate. One thing that strikes me as making the Black Walnut sapwood hypothesis a stretch, is that there is that a walnut with thick enough sapwood to make that stock would be an unusual flitch, to say the least. Even on fast growing young trees, 2" of sapwood is about the most I've seen.

[Tim Andrews]

I just purchased two 8/4 pieces of rough walnut, each about 7”W x 10’ L. They came from the same bin at my lumber yard. The difference between the two was unbelievable. I didn’t notice the difference until I had started milling, so I couldn’t return the lighter piece. It is lighter in weight and less dense than the darker piece, so I’m assuming it’s older.

I have started using TransTint dyes in some of my pieces, so I can make it work. The grain pattern is actually quite nice, as long as you’re not looking for the traditional dark look of walnut.