Help dating antique wood lathe

[Bill Webber]

I recently picked up a wooden wood lathe. It is made of rosewood, brass, and steel. It is 60 inches long, 26 inches high and the pulley wheel is about 10 inches in diameter. It weighs about 100 lbs. I'm batting about zero as far as finding any information on it's age or manufacture. I would like to find a study of early woodworking lathes but haven't come across anything promising. Any ideas would be helpful. I have lots of other detailed photos of the parts and pieces that can be posted later. Suffice to say it is quite a gadget. It has a fine indexing head and threading capability. Guesses anyone?

[Jim Koepke]

My thoughts on this is you might have luck in the Turners Forum.

Your luck might be better contacting someone like Patrick Leach or Roy Underhill.

Another source might be > https://owwm.org < Old Woodworking Machines

jtk

[Bill Webber]

Thanks Jim, I was debating where to put the post. I decided it was more old tools than turner question. Can't post to both, I guess. Pat Leach is more historian for Stanley and hand tools, not so much machinery. Tom Underwood would probably be a good source, he pursues most everything related to old woodworking. I'll try OWWM too, someone might have come across something like it.

[Mel Fulks]

What a beautiful thing! When I was a kid …50s and 60s, I used to see things like that in the “Popular” magazines, most were made by the
owner. The guy who made that beauty has his name on that somewhere. Don’t rely on finding a big steel plate!

[Tom M King]

It's a work of art, and lucky to have been well taken care of, instead of left sitting in a barn somewhere. I would love to have it sitting in my office.

[John K Jordan]

Hi Bill.

Does the lathe have any parts such as castings that indicate it was made in a factory? I’m wondering if it could be a shop-built lathe, one-of-a-kind.

[Bill Webber]

What a beautiful thing! When I was a kid …50s and 60s, I used to see things like that in the “Popular” magazines, most were made by the
owner. The guy who made that beauty has his name on that somewhere. Don’t rely on finding a big steel plate!

Hey Mel, thanks for the reply. There are no marks on it. The only alpha-numeric characters are on the indexing wheel. I did find one picture on the inter web that has a similar threading box. Gotta say I'd be pretty unhappy if it turns out to be '50s.

[Bill Webber]

I don't see anything that shouts 'casting'. A few turned parts but mostly machined parts. My thinking would be one-off, maybe mid 19th century. If mid 20th century, why bother, too much commercial stuff available then. There is a lot of work in this beast.

[Tom M King]

Even more awesome with the base, and drive wheel!!

[Mel Fulks]

Gotta say I'd be pretty unhappy if it turns out to be '50s.[/QUOTE]

I understand, but there is a lot of “fine period furniture “ that was finished yesterday. Is the rosewood in it used as a bearing ,like that found
in some old stuff or just a lavish touch ordered by a wealthy modern guy who liked rosewood? Have you examined the thread pitch of the
bolts? Worth a shot. If I find a “strong-box” of gold I won’t care if it’s new gold or old gold….unless the Old Gold is old cigarettes !

[Scott Winners]

My SWAG would be 1890-1910, maybe 1930. You might get some action tracking down those four sided nuts with the shoulders on them.

When did six sided nuts become common? That is the sort of thing that could have been made last year, but it would have been cost prohibitive as a user. I am thinking in the 1890-1935 window a fellow could have made that with economical access to wood grain like that and the square nuts both as a working show piece. Are there any wear marks on your example at all? Any roughness on the tool rest? Any sap or burn marks on the spindle points? It _could_ ( I mostly look at furniture this age) possibly be pre 1865, but I highly doubt it. The metal turnings are far more sophisticated than required, which might be seen on fireplace andirons for a mansion, but not a wood lathe.

I do see the wear marks on the driven pulley. It could have been a very low mileage toy for a Vanderbilt or a railroad baron or a DuPont in the 1865-1890 window maybe. My best guess is late Victorian or Edwardian, kinda 1890-1910 ish, or anytime after that. I just looked it up, the hex nut was patented in 1829 but I have no data on speed of market penetration.

Fascinating thing. The builder obviously spent a lot of time on it. I would count it a score for sure.

[Bill Webber]

Is the rosewood in it used as a bearing ,like that found
in some old stuff or just a lavish touch ordered by a wealthy modern guy who liked rosewood? Have you examined the thread pitch of the
bolts? Worth a shot. If I find a “strong-box” of gold I won’t care if it’s new gold or old gold….unless the Old Gold is old cigarettes !
As far as I can tell, all the wooden parts are rosewood, but not bearing surfaces. Bearings are brass. As for thread pitch, etc., some screws are crude black smith made hold downs, others more sophisticated. Check my next post more detail than you are likely interested in.

[Bill Webber]

My SWAG would be 1890-1910, maybe 1930. You might get some action tracking down those four sided nuts with the shoulders on them.
Here's a link for some screw history.
https://itstillruns.com/history-hex-head-nuts-bolts-12194415.html


Are there any wear marks on your example at all?
I don't believe it was ever used. The lathe is heavy at 100 lbs, but not stable enough to work on. There is no evidence it was ever secured to a bench, no screw holes, no clamp marks. There is no evidence of wear on the drive pulley, no marks whatsoever. There is no evidence the sleeve bearings were lubricated enough to do serious work with it.

I'm carrying on several conversation on different venues so I'm goin to paste another message here and hope it is not too redundant.

I picked up this lathe at a recent auction. It is a work of art but I really don’t know what I have. Who might have made it? How old is it? What craft would make use of it with its small threading capabilities and indexing head? How was it powered? I know you have an interest and knowledge of antique tools and wonder if you would be inclined to comment?

Here’s what I have. It is a wooden lathe made of rosewood, with brass and steel hardware. It measures 60” long, 26” high and the large drive pulley is about 10” in diameter. It weighs just under 100 lbs.
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-031.JPG
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-032.JPG
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-033.JPG

Lots of detail follows:

The tailstock holds the lathe center (duh).
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-001.JPG

A relatively crude post extends from the bottom of the tailstock assembly. A threaded ring and a wooden block allow the tailstock to be positioned and secured in place.
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-002.JPG

The metal parts that carry the lathe center appear to be overly elaborate. The metal box is hollow and is mostly wood inside. In this picture you can see the outside plate and the box that may be 3-sided or 4 sided. The three screws that stick out from the end do not appear to do anything. They have machine threads and are screwed into the tailstock until the screws bottom out on their shoulders.
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-003.JPG
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-004.JPG

Here’s a picture of one of the screws removed from the tailstock.
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-005.JPG

The clamp to hold the steel center pin is a steel ring folded around the pin and welded to a threaded rod that sticks out the back of the tailstock. When tightened, the ring pulls the lathe center against the holes in the steel box/frame.
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-006.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-005.JPG)

The tool rest is held in place in a manner similar to the tailstock.
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-007.JPG

A ‘T’ bolt slides in a slot in the tool holder.
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-009.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-011.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)

The tool post is brass and extends through the wooden holder. A steel thumb screw screws into the brass and tightens a steel pressure bar against the steel tool rest. Nothing special here.
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-010.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-012.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-013.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)


The headstock is held in place in a manner similar to the tailstock and tool rest. Since the headstock is not normally moved often, the screws are tightened with a pry bar rather than having integral rings. The business end of the headstock has brass sleeve bearings and an adjustable oiler. (interesting to note there is no evidence on the wood the machine was significantly oiled)
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-016.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-015.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)

A brass threaded head with a swaged steel plate mounts to the end of the drive shaft. The shaft has both external and internal threads. Looks surprisingly modern.
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-017.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-018.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)

The drive pulley is a 4-step affair that looks appropriate for a round belt.
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-019.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)

The face of the pulley has a rather professional looking index plate. The plate is stamped in quarters. Also, I think, mis-stamped twice in one instance.
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-021.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-022.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-020.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)

The rear (left end) of the drive mechanism has a brass bearing and oiler similar to the one in the front. There is a stop and adjuster to limit shaft travel to the left. There are six levers that control threading and positioning.
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-024.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-025.JPG

Identifying the levers as 1 thru 6, left to right, lever #2 forces the drive shaft to the left into the end stop. The other levers, 1 and 2 thru 6, engage threaded sections on the main shaft and impart threading motion to the work being turned. Levers 3 thru 6 impart motion for ‘approximately’ 8, 9, 10, and 18 threads per inch respectively. Lever 1 imparts motion for something finer than the others, finer than 18 TPI. Note the threading length is quit short, perhaps ¾ of an inch.
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-028.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-026.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-027.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)


This last piece is most perplexing. There is a post that sits just in front of the front bearing. The top looks like it should hold something on the clamp at the top of the shaft. The top has leather and brass washers tightened in place with a brass thumb screw. The clamping assembly does not move on the post. The brass base mounts through a hole in the lathe bed through the only hole in the lathe frame. A screw passes through the lathe front way and is tightened with a socketed screw headed rod. The rod is way too long for its purpose so there is an added brass barrel that acts as a spacer. The brass barrel has a turned wooden filler.
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-032.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-029.JPG (http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-008.JPG)
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/2110-030.JPG

So again, care to comment on its age or manufacturer? My guess would be it was used for instrument making, telescopes, microscopes, sextants, etc. I think it was likely powered by an over line shaft of some sort. Here’s the other thing, I don’t believe it was ever used. The base is only about 8-inches wide and there is no evidence it was ever secured or clamped to a bench. There is no obvious wear on the pulley from a belt drive. There is no evidence of the oiling of the bearings that woud have been necessary if it were used often.

I was searching the internet for other lathes like this one. The only thing I found with any similarity was this wooden lathe that looks like it has a threading box like mine. Doesn’t mean much other than the threading design was not uncommon. The picture I found was an advertisement for the picture only. No other info.
http://billwebber.galootcentral.com/Example.jpg

Now I need to track down Roy Underhill and then see if I can post something on OWM

[Jim Koepke]

One of the thoughts that came to mind was a clock maker's lathe. The indexing could have been for cutting gears.

Another thought is there are a lot of accessories missing.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

My internet is not working so I am using phone and can’t do much research. I would say about 1800 for your lathe. The screw mechanism at the left only works with a reciprocating lathe like a pole lathe (or a bow). Mechanisms like this are seen in Diderot (1755), Plumier (1703), and maybe Salivet(1792). The pulley suggests that it was also set up for a treadle and flywheel.

Early Holtzapffel lathes were sometimes sold with both flywheel below and a bow above. I think your lathe originally had legs with treadle and flywheel below.

[Warren Mickley]

If you search for “William Walters” traversing mandrel lathe, you can see a picture of an 1804 lathe that has similarities to yours. Note molding on tail stock, thread cutting box, fire hardwoods.

[Tom Bender]

Looks like a pattern maker or a machinist had some time on his hands.