Sawstop Sliding Table vs Large Crosscut Sled

[Alan Lightstone]

So, just missed a bad accident. For at least a decade I've had and used a large melamine coated, 3/4" MDF crosscut sled. Weighed a ton, and I couldn't even remotely lift it, so in my last shop, and in my present shop I had an overhead hoist installed so that when I wasn't using the sled, I just pushed a button and it lifted and lived overhead of the outfeed table.

My bad, when I built it, I attached it to the hoist hook with a heavy duty screw eye. It was threaded into the hardwood surrounding the Lexan on the center of the board. This worked like a charm, until a week ago, when I was lowering it, and the hook pulled out of the hardwood, and gravity took over. Fortunately I avoided what could have been a very serious injury, but it did dent part of my formica outfeed table, and since it's made of MDF, it cracked in several areas. Why I didn't install it with a machine screw / insert nut instead of a wood screw - just stupid design on my part.

So now, it's time to rebuild either a large crosscut sled, and use the William Ng 5 cut method for accuracy (I want at least 27" width capacity as I've used that repeatedly), or perhaps another option.

What do people think about the Sawstop Sliding Table vs a crosscut sled? I'm not going to be replacing my ICS with a true slider, so no Felder / Hammer / ACM comments, please.

I would have to move my second workbench out to accomodate the track for the Sawstop sliding table, and it's crazy expensive vs just rebuilding a crosscut sled, but would it have any benefits?

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Glad to hear you're safe!
I made a Microjig Zeroplay sled. Check it out. The MAIN reason I built it is because it's almost all wood, so in the event of some mishap/error with the sled or fence you don't also lose a brake and blade. It's NOT as easy to build as the video shows. Took me a couple fails to get one built. Fail #1 was buy GOOD multi plywood. I got mine form the box store and AFTER I built it, it potato chipped and I spent significant time flattening it out.
I like the sled. I also have a basic sled for 90 degree crosscuts. Since the Zeroplay is 360 degree capable, that means to me that it's probably not 90.0 degree capable.

[Mike Kees]

Alan here is my take. Not sure on which Sawstop sliding table you are considering, I have seen a narrow one and one just like the old Excalibur sliding tables. I started my descent into the world of sliders with an Excalibur table on a Unisaw. They are smoother and easier to use, tipping at the beginning and end of a stroke is gone. This was a huge step up from my crosscut box. The difference between sliding table attachments and a true sliding saw is the space between the edge of the blade and the sliding element. When you go to a true slider that is the next huge step up. I know it does not sound like a big difference but it is. So if you have the space and funds I am pretty sure that using a sliding table will be a revelation to you compared to the crosscut box.

[Paul F Franklin]

I have both a fairly large sled (not as big as yours, it can be removed/replaced by hand) and the the smaller SS sliding crosscut table.

In my experience, the biggest shortcoming of the sliding crosscut table is that it has to be re-squared every time you remove the fence assembly from the saw because there is a fair amount of slop in the way it mounts to the sliding table. And I find I have to remove it fairly often because it gets in the way when you need to do wide rips using the rip fence. It can be reset fairly quickly using a big square or a known square piece of MDF or the like, but it will not be as precisely square as a sled tuned using the 5 cut method.

[Alan Schwabacher]

In my opinion, a large sled is used with large workpieces where gravity works well to hold them down. Since you don't need holddowns, 1/4" plywood works very well for the sled base, making it much easier to handle. I fail to see any advantage to a thicker base on a large sled. A smaller sled with holddowns can be of thicker stock. Neither version is very heavy.

[Cliff Polubinsky]

I've got the smaller sliding table and I really like it. I don't have any problem with taking the fence off and on. When I first dialed it in I first twisted the miter gauge counterclockwise then tightened it down, then I aligned the fence. When remove the fence/miter gauge and put it back on I twist the gauge counterclockwise and tighten it down. The fence lines up perfectly every time.

One of the things I find a major advantage is I can cut larger panels than I could ever fit into a sled, at least not a sled I can lift.

Cliff

[Paul F Franklin]

I've got the smaller sliding table and I really like it. I don't have any problem with taking the fence off and on. When I first dialed it in I first twisted the miter gauge counterclockwise then tightened it down, then I aligned the fence. When remove the fence/miter gauge and put it back on I twist the gauge counterclockwise and tighten it down. The fence lines up perfectly every time.

One of the things I find a major advantage is I can cut larger panels than I could ever fit into a sled, at least not a sled I can lift.

Cliff

good tip, I'll have to give that a try. I wish they would provide adjustability on that mounting bar to take up the slop, like a lot of miter gauge bars do.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I made a second larger crosscut sled, as you cut capacity gets bigger, you have more hanging off the front of the saw.

To counter this, I made this simple support.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIVMZ3QhXcU

[Ray Newman]

On my 1987 Uni-saw I ran an Excalibur sliding table for a few years. Finally removed it as it just consumed too much space versus the number of times I cut with it. Found that I "nevva" really missed it.

In 2006, I sold the Uni-saw and purchase a SawStop ICS with the small sliding table. To overcome the "return to 90" issue, I purchased another sliding table miter bar for it, had the local machine shop drill and tap the miter bar for an INCRA 1000SE miter gauge, and put an INCRA 36-64" Telescoping Flip-Fence on it. No more problems. I find the small slider handy.

I still utilize my track saw to cut down sheet goods, with final "trim to fits cuts" on the table saw. I think if I was doing it all over, I would still leave space for the sliding table in the shop, but fabricate a large sled. I never worked with a large sled, so I have no idea if it would work out as I work from wheelchair. A large sled and a quality track saw just might be the ticket. As an aside, the December 2021, #292, Fine Woodworking, pp 44ff, has an article on fabricating a sled. A torsion box made from 1/8" hardboard/Masonite for an overall thickness of 3/8".

[Warren Lake]

I had exacliburs both sides of one saw cross cut left slide to the stop on right, if slider manufacturers got it they could make better saws. its a waste of time to spin a part after you cross cut one end. Exacliburs I had were first generation and primitive, finally got rid of them but my set up still worked better than a 50k table saw cause I didnt have to spin parts. total waste of time. Not all is better on sliders.

Before that I had 1/2 baltic sled, hard maple front and back and two maple runners, it cut 4 x 8' easy and was supported on the outfeed. Ive watched several internet gurus, clamping gizmos 25 cut method blah lah. Old guys had nothing more than I had and made a living all their lives. If I had thought about it more I could have made a small sled but I used that large one that could cross cut over a 4 x 8 as I was busy making a living and part of that was lifting endless stuff. It was one more thing who cares. 3/4 Mel a mine is a bad choice for a sled, glad you are okay

[Erik Loza]

Feedback I have gotten from several shop owners who have a SS with the sliding attachment (and I consider the SS a quality product, for the record): If you never dismount it from the machine, it is an acceptable. If you dismount it, it requires re-squaring every time. But these are pro shops. YMMV,

Erik

[Warren Lake]

attachments had generations I think Excalliburs i had had five generations and mine was the first gen. I got all my work done and that was what mattered at the time knowing stuff would be replaced so got the SCM when I saw it and exacliburs came off one sold one to be sold still. They alone will blow away a mitre gauge on a saw do the same only more support etc. Taking on and off what for. If ripping sheet stock on the exacalibur all you needed off was the back fence then the carriage is there for support.

They are 10 times as easy to set up as my SCM slider is but it also has way more adjustments possible on the SCM.

[Christopher Charles]

Hi Alan,

Glad you dodged a bullet.

I built the Mark S. version, which also uses the 5 cut method to set up and using roughly his dimensions. I found his instructions clear and concise. Mine's 1/2" baltic birch, manageable to handle, and happily tucks to the left of the saw. I looked at the SS sliding table as well but didn't because I was concerned about space and running into all the time, I don't do that much with sheet goods, and the $s.

https://thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/the-cross-cut-sled/

I find it is just on the edge of too wide for my PCS and will likely build a support modeled after Chris' above.

Good luck with a replacement.

[John TenEyck]

My two cents is that a crosscut sled takes up no permanent footprint around your TS, unlike a sliding table attachment. I don't have extra space for something that only gets used sometimes. Plus, with a crosscut sled you get a ZCI built in, and it's replaceable with just a little thought. I built a a crosscut sled that can cut over 40" front to back. Yes, it's heavy, but not overly so. It's supported on the outfeed side and if I need support on the infeed side I just slide a roller stand under it. Best of all, after 30 years cuts still come off it exactly at 90 deg. Never have I had to adjust it. When I'm not using it gets stood up along side my sheet goods cart.

John

[Alan Lightstone]

I made a second larger crosscut sled, as you cut capacity gets bigger, you have more hanging off the front of the saw.

To counter this, I made this simple support.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIVMZ3QhXcU

Nice support, Chris. I think I actually found a simpler approach on my present large crosscut sled. For miter bars I installed the Incra IMS2SE Miter bars. On the end of one of them they have an oval nut that is slightly longer than the width of the miter bar, which keeps it in the track, despite hanging over the front of the table saw. Works like a charm.

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[Bob Falk]

My two cents is that a crosscut sled takes up no permanent footprint around your TS, unlike a sliding table attachment. I don't have extra space for something that only gets used sometimes. Plus, with a crosscut sled you get a ZCI built in, and it's replaceable with just a little thought. I built a a crosscut sled that can cut over 40" front to back. Yes, it's heavy, but not overly so. It's supported on the outfeed side and if I need support on the infeed side I just slide a roller stand under it. Best of all, after 30 years cuts still come off it exactly at 90 deg. Never have I had to adjust it. When I'm not using it gets stood up along side my sheet goods cart.

John


John, Interesting that you don't find a sliding table more useful. I have a Robland sliding table on my SS ICS and I use it for nearly every crosscut. Only in the rare occasion do I use a miter gauge. The Robland is kinda fussy to set up, but cuts accurately once adjusted.

[Alan Lightstone]

So, I think I'm going to build another crosscut sled, this time out of 1/2" BB plywood that I have in my shop.

But first, let me show a few pictures of my present, soon to be tossed sled, as I'm strongly considering using a few of its features. It's a Woodhaven, and they discontinued it years ago.

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I've liked the aluminum channel, as I very often use hold-downs on my work when using the sled. The stop blocks on the channel are also quite handy.

Due to my physical limitations, I'll have to make this sled out of two separate sheets of 1/2" BB plywood, each a little larger than 1/2 of the size. That does present the issue of keeping the sled flat while installing the front and back fences, and miter bars. I figure that I can temporarily install wood fences front and back while keeping flat and weighed down on my workbench, then installing the miter bar (or two). I can at that point use the 5 cut method to zero in the fence, and then here's the issue:

I can see it creating real difficulties using the aluminum fences and keeping things square. I could bolt them to the sled and the wood fence, then remove the wood fences (needed for using these threaded hold downs), or is there a better approach?

Or should I just toss the aluminum channels, and put a T-Track on the top, and find some other idea for hold downs (any suggestions...)?

[Dan Cameron]

So, I think I'm going to build another crosscut sled, this time out of 1/2" BB plywood that I have in my shop.

But first, let me show a few pictures of my present, soon to be tossed sled, as I'm strongly considering using a few of its features. It's a Woodhaven, and they discontinued it years ago.

467228
467229
467230

I've liked the aluminum channel, as I very often use hold-downs on my work when using the sled. The stop blocks on the channel are also quite handy.

Due to my physical limitations, I'll have to make this sled out of two separate sheets of 1/2" BB plywood, each a little larger than 1/2 of the size. That does present the issue of keeping the sled flat while installing the front and back fences, and miter bars. I figure that I can temporarily install wood fences front and back while keeping flat and weighed down on my workbench, then installing the miter bar (or two). I can at that point use the 5 cut method to zero in the fence, and then here's the issue:

I can see it creating real difficulties using the aluminum fences and keeping things square. I could bolt them to the sled and the wood fence, then remove the wood fences (needed for using these threaded hold downs), or is there a better approach?

Or should I just toss the aluminum channels, and put a T-Track on the top, and find some other idea for hold downs (any suggestions...)?

Here's a thought. How about making a wooden fence with a t-track in top, the height of this fence plus t-track exactly the same as the height as the aluminum fence, and permanently fastened to the sled. The aluminum fence is attached to the wooden fence using shims as yoou do the five cut dance. Now you can use your hold downs without removing the wood fence.

[Alan Lightstone]

Here's a thought. How about making a wooden fence with a t-track in top, the height of this fence plus t-track exactly the same as the height as the aluminum fence, and permanently fastened to the sled. The aluminum fence is attached to the wooden fence using shims as yoou do the five cut dance. Now you can use your hold downs without removing the wood fence.
That would not work with these particular holddowns. I would need to re-design them, or at least the back small aluminum portion.

And with the two halves of the aluminum fence independent of each other wouldnt a shim just make them not parallel to each other. Wouldn’t it make more sense to attach the aluminum track to the wood track and then move the wood track around its pivot point using feeler gauges with the William Ng method?

I really don’t know if it’s worth it at all to use these aluminum tracks, but I really don’t want to lose the ability to use the hold downs.

[John TenEyck]

For crosscuts less than 14" I use my RAS. The sled gets used for wider ones. In both case no setup, checking, etc is required; cuts come out at 90 deg first time, every time. I would love to have a true slider, but don't have the room for one.
John

[Alan Lightstone]

I think I've settled on a conventional crosscut sled with wood fences. I just can't see how I could easily dial in the split aluminum channels to be dead on accurate. Seems much easier with a solid piece of wood. I'll either put on an Incra T-track Plus or Kreg top track and modify the hold down toggle clamps to work. I don't think I've ever used the slots in the bottom of my present crosscut sled for hold-downs, so I think I'll skip on those (though I use them every time on a much smaller sled I use for small pieces). Hmmm...

I've liked some of the videos I saw with a replaceable zero-clearance insert, though there is no way I'm going to make the sled even heavier by using two sheets of 1/2" plywood for the bottom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njsD5W6fcI0&t=2574s

I think I'll repeat my present sled setup by using the Incra Miter SE slots, as those really do prevent the sled from tipping over when pulled to the front. The trick is to only put them on the far end of the miter bars, not the near end.

I'll also have to beef up something again to be able to hang the sled from the overhead hoist. This time not doing the dumb thing with simple wood screw eyes. The machine screw/insert nut approach will be much safer.

So, I've got a project on my hands. Not a particularly difficult one, but accuracy is important.

[Dan Cameron]

That would not work with these particular holddowns. I would need to re-design them, or at least the back small aluminum portion.

And with the two halves of the aluminum fence independent of each other wouldnt a shim just make them not parallel to each other. Wouldn’t it make more sense to attach the aluminum track to the wood track and then move the wood track around its pivot point using feeler gauges with the William Ng method?

I really don’t know if it’s worth it at all to use these aluminum tracks, but I really don’t want to lose the ability to use the hold downs.

What I'm suggesting is that your hold downs can be attached with two of the four mounting screws in the top slot of the aluminum fence and the other two screws into the slot of the t-track. The t-track just needs to be mounted at the right distance (and parallel to) from the aluminum fence.

[Warren Lake]

didnt have hold downs on a sled, the stops and holding the wood to the stops worked fine. Stop blocks were just a block of wood held on with a clamp. The one i used had 8/4 Maple front and back. likely some other lighter wood could have been used that would have still been strong enough at 2" thick but lighter. 2" thick back when 8/4 was really 8/4.

[Bryan Hall]

I looked into the SS large and small sliders when. I started considering a real slider. I was a little surprised that the SS customer service flat out told me that their sliders aren't that accurate. The small is better than the large, but both struggle a bit with repeatable accuracy. The sled more reliable.

[Holmes Anderson]

What are the advantages of having the sliding table closer to the blade? Seems like it would more or less eliminate the problems caused by small differences in height between the sliding and static tables and maybe make it easier to minimize variations in parallelism between the blade and travel of the sliding table?

How does the Compass ST-1500 stack up against the SawStop sliding table attachments?

[Alan Lightstone]

The next problem I'm thinking about, is how to securely mount the cross piece to hold an eye hook for hanging from the hoist that won't fall out, and potentially kill me next time. A worthy goal, I think (others may differ...)

Here's the present modified setup.
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The cross piece is held on with bolts to the aluminum track, and the eye hook is now held on with a threaded insert and the wood piece is epoxied and screwed on.

This won't go anywhere, but how secure would a wood cross piece screwed into a plywood fence edge be? This is what's worrying me. What's a more secure way to mount the cross piece to the fences to strengthen it from being pulled out?

[Alan Lightstone]

What I'm suggesting is that your hold downs can be attached with two of the four mounting screws in the top slot of the aluminum fence and the other two screws into the slot of the t-track. The t-track just needs to be mounted at the right distance (and parallel to) from the aluminum fence.

Oh, I see. That would work. But I think I'm abandoning the aluminum track on the remake.

[Kevin Jenness]

What are the advantages of having the sliding table closer to the blade? Seems like it would more or less eliminate the problems caused by small differences in height between the sliding and static tables and maybe make it easier to minimize variations in parallelism between the blade and travel of the sliding table?

It is easier to support and clamp narrow workpieces with the table next to the blade. I use a Fritz und Franz jig quite a bit for narrow, short and taper cuts which would be difficult otherwise, also straightlining the edge of parts either by eye or by measuring off the table edge is simpler. A disadvantage is that it is more difficult to fashion a zero clearance insert so scoring is desirable for some materials.

[John TenEyck]

There are no clamps on my sled either; for 90 deg cuts on 99% of the things I use it for they are unnecessary. For the few times I've needed to hold something at an odd angle I have just screwed or hotmelted a block or two as needed to the bed of the sled. The stop block I use is just a piece of wood clamped to the fence, same as you, Warren, but I can see the advantage of a sliding one with a tape measure scale.

What I feel IS necessary is an overhead guard, which I almost never see on a crosscut sled. I have a piece of 1/4" Lexan about 6" wide that spans from front to back directly over the blade, supported by two pieces of wood about 3/4" x 1-1/2". It keeps sawdust and "stuff" from flying up into my face and provides a visual reminder of where not to put my hands. It also reinforces the structure of the sled. Another important safety feature is a guard at the back of the sled to prevent the blade from coming through at the end of the cut, and a means to limit the forward travel of the sled.

John

[Paul F Franklin]

The next problem I'm thinking about, is how to securely mount the cross piece to hold an eye hook for hanging from the hoist that won't fall out, and potentially kill me next time. A worthy goal, I think (others may differ...)

Here's the present modified setup.
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The cross piece is held on with bolts to the aluminum track, and the eye hook is now held on with a threaded insert and the wood piece is epoxied and screwed on.

This won't go anywhere, but how secure would a wood cross piece screwed into a plywood fence edge be? This is what's worrying me. What's a more secure way to mount the cross piece to the fences to strengthen it from being pulled out?

IIWM, I'd think about having four hooks, one on each end of the front and back fences, and 4 straps from above for lifting. You could use lighter hooks and straps, it would be easier to keep the thing level, and you'd have redundancy if one or two of the hooks somehow let go.

[eta:] But if you want to do it your way, you could drill 1" holes through the plywood and insert pieces of hardwood dowels and then run your screws down through the edge of the plywood into the dowel pieces. Much more pull-out resistance that way.

[Kevin Jenness]

The stop block I use is just a piece of wood clamped to the fence, same as you, Warren, but I can see the advantage of a sliding one with a tape measure scale.

When I used a sled I had a simple wood flipstop and a self-stick tape on the fence. No clamps, used for square cuts only.

I replaced it with an Excalibur which I felt was a big improvement in width and angle capacity and support, and adequate in accuracy. Now I have an 8.5' slider and can't imagine going backwards.

[Warren Lake]

always found the ones i had were out more when the weight of the material increased.

[Alan Lightstone]

IIWM, I'd think about having four hooks, one on each end of the front and back fences, and 4 straps from above for lifting. You could use lighter hooks and straps, it would be easier to keep the thing level, and you'd have redundancy if one or two of the hooks somehow let go.

[eta:] But if you want to do it your way, you could drill 1" holes through the plywood and insert pieces of hardwood dowels and then run your screws down through the edge of the plywood into the dowel pieces. Much more pull-out resistance that way.

Though if I use typical screw eyes for that, it has the same issue of pulling out a wood screw that's not supported from behind by a bolt or threaded insert. No question that 4 of them would be stronger than one, but is that still enough? I can just envision one of those bridge collapse videos of them all coming out like a zipper.

I could, I guess, use a similar technique as I used before, but this time on the attachment to the fences: Use a Forstner bit to inlay then glue a threaded insert into the plywood fences then glue and screw a piece of hardwood to the edge of the plywood. The overhead guard would then be screwed into the fences with machine bolts. Seems like overkill, but no joke this thing could be dangerous if it ever fell.

Or am I overthinking this and could I just use four L-brackets to attach the overhead guard to the front and back fences? Not pretty, but it is, after all, just a sled.