Minimax FS 41c vs Hammer A3-41

[Josh Baldwin]

Hey guys so I'm about to pull the trigger on this and just wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts. The Minimax is actually about $500 less or so and seems like the better machine from what I've read. The rep from Felder says otherwise of course, but just curious what you guys think. BTW doing spiral heads on both.

[Erik Loza]

Josh, I obviously work for one of the companies you are considering but also, have sold and actually used both machines (which many sales reps or even customers can't say), so feel like I can at least give you some non-biased information to help your decision making. First, both machines are very high quality and will probably last you forever. I would not say one is "better" than the other. Different in design, yes, but not better. It would be like saying a Toyota is better than a Honda. Sure, we could pick apart the design differences between this or that machine but the bottom line is that either machine will do what you want. This being said, here are some reasons I seem to sell a lot of A3's:

-Felder offers a whole ecosystem of useful accessories for the A3, such as a dial indicator for the thickness planing or portable extension tables for the infeed and outfeed sides. Nearly every A3 customer of mine ends up getting these and they all tell me it makes the machine immensely more useful. Yes, someone could certainly add those to another brand of machine but you are then into drilling/tapping/fabrication.
-Felder sells directly. The reason for this is customer support. Any customer of mine has my cell phone number. You can call me any time with an issue and either I will handle it or see that it gets handled by Service. I imagine it is the same for any of our other reps.
-Felder's Service hotline will get answered by a LIVE HUMAN BEING at all times during business hours. "Voice Mail Hell" is not a thing with us. We have an entire US team whose only job is to support Standard/Classical machinery. I feel this alone is worth something beyond selling price.
-The A3 is the best-selling machine in our entire lineup. We have it down to a science and customers can trust the product.

Again, both excellent machines. Best of luck in your search.

Erik

[Josh Baldwin]

Josh, I obviously work for one of the companies you are considering but also, have sold and actually used both machines (which many sales reps or even customers can't say), so feel like I can at least give you some non-biased information to help your decision making. First, both machines are very high quality and will probably last you forever. I would not say one is "better" than the other. Different in design, yes, but not better. It would be like saying a Toyota is better than a Honda. Sure, we could pick apart the design differences between this or that machine but the bottom line is that either machine will do what you want. This being said, here are some reasons I seem to sell a lot of A3's:

-Felder offers a whole ecosystem of useful accessories for the A3, such as a dial indicator for the thickness planing or portable extension tables for the infeed and outfeed sides. Nearly every A3 customer of mine ends up getting these and they all tell me it makes the machine immensely more useful. Yes, someone could certainly add those to another brand of machine but you are then into drilling/tapping/fabrication.
-Felder sells directly. The reason for this is customer support. Any customer of mine has my cell phone number. You can call me any time with an issue and either I will handle it or see that it gets handled by Service. I imagine it is the same for any of our other reps.
-Felder's Service hotline will get answered by a LIVE HUMAN BEING at all times during business hours. "Voice Mail Hell" is not a thing with us. We have an entire US team whose only job is to support Standard/Classical machinery. I feel this alone is worth something beyond selling price.
-The A3 is the best-selling machine in our entire lineup. We have it down to a science and customers can trust the product.

Again, both excellent machines. Best of luck in your search.

Erik

Hey Erik thanks for the feedback. I definitely like the ecosystem elements of the A3. I just have to decide I guess if it's worth the extra money, it's actually coming out to about an extra $800 at this point for what I can tell is a very comparable machine. This is already a HUGE splurge for me, so that extra 10%-15% may sway me. But I'll see what kind of comments come in and hopefully I can make a decision by the end of the week. Thanks again for the honest response!

[Albert Lee]

Hey guys so I'm about to pull the trigger on this and just wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts. The Minimax is actually about $500 less or so and seems like the better machine from what I've read. The rep from Felder says otherwise of course, but just curious what you guys think. BTW doing spiral heads on both.

I have SCM and Felder in my shop, I personally prefer SCM, or Minimax.

For Hammer gear, I found this when I googled Hammer A3-41 Youtube....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5-cjNa_yJU&t=684s

[Bryan Hall]

Hey guys so I'm about to pull the trigger on this and just wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts. The Minimax is actually about $500 less or so and seems like the better machine from what I've read. The rep from Felder says otherwise of course, but just curious what you guys think. BTW doing spiral heads on both.

Josh,

I spent the day today testing the CU 410E from minimax which has the 78" bed for the 16" J/P (tersa blades tho). It was phenomenal and I expect to do the same as you are. I'll buy the FS 41c as a standalone machine and will be ordering a slider or slider/shaper as well. The machine was intuitive to use, extremely fast change overs, excellent dust collection, I couldn't find any complaint for it. The joinery machine specialist for minimax, Sam Blasco, has a bunch of youtube videos up of him working with the machines and is extremely responsive to e-mails while also being very friendly. I also really like buying machines from someone who is a woodworker himself. I believe he was a full time cabinet builder before he became affiliated with minimax, double check that tho. If you'd like to e-mail him I'd be happy to pass on his info.

[roger wiegand]

I can't speak to a comparison, as I have only used a relative of one of the contenders (FS41 ES). I'm pretty sure they are both wonderful, but I really love the FS41. Mine (bought used) came with an amazingly accurate DRO (accuracy seems to be about 0.1 mm), and has the motorized lift which makes changeovers really quick. The tables seem to be about the size of an aircraft carrier, I've been jointing 8-10 foot boards and not feeling any need for longer outfeed tables.

Mine came with the porkchop guard, which I hate. Looking to replace it with either the euro style or the jointed one that folds as it moves rather than poking you in the belly.

[Jim Becker]

Both are great machines. I happen to be in the SCM/Minimax ecosystem so my comfort level is high and I also really like the Tersa knife system I have. But you can't go wrong with either. Honestly, aside from the price difference you mention, lead time to delivery would be a factor for me in the final decision.

[Erik Loza]

Hey Erik thanks for the feedback. I definitely like the ecosystem elements of the A3. I just have to decide I guess if it's worth the extra money, it's actually coming out to about an extra $800 at this point for what I can tell is a very comparable machine. This is already a HUGE splurge for me, so that extra 10%-15% may sway me. But I'll see what kind of comments come in and hopefully I can make a decision by the end of the week. Thanks again for the honest response!

No problem, Josh. This is none of my business but I would get with your Felder rep and make sure he/she is offering you their best deal. Mentioning this because, in my experience, the pricing tends to be pretty comparable. The amount you mentioned seems almost like the difference between a 12" machine and a 16" machine. Assuming we are talking Silent Power vs. Xylent and not Silent Power versus Tersa.


I have SCM and Felder in my shop, I personally prefer SCM, or Minimax.

For Hammer gear, I found this when I googled Hammer A3-41 Youtube....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5-cjNa_yJU&t=684s

I've run across that video but all I can say is that, in my experience, that is very atypical. I've sold as many A3's as anyone and cannot think of a single customer who has been disappointed. To the contrary, they all seem to love their machines. I worry a lot more about freight damage than a customer being dissatisfied with their machine. Also, not to throw Felder-Canada under the bus (LOL) but it seems like possibly their service/support infrastructure is different than here in the US. I believe that guy in the video is located in Canada?

Erik

[Ian Guy]

Josh,
I have a Minimax FS30c and a Hammer K3 Winner (saw). My thought process on purchasing the respective machines is as follows:

I first started looking at Jointer/planer combos about a year ago. I strongly considered the Jet JJp-12 as it was on sale last October and the discounted price was very attractive. I did lengthy research on the web and came to the conclusion that I would not be as happy with the Jet as I would with a Hammer or Minimax. Primarily it had to do with the tables going out of coplanar on the Jet and difficult readjustment. So then it was a decision between Hammer and MM. I chose the MM for a couple of reasons. I had decided that I wanted the straight blades (one was partly a cost thing and second, my research indicated that many folks were very happy with the resulting surface, noise was not a factor for me). MM has the Tersa head and all of my research showed it is a great straight-blade system. The MM was originally supposed to take three months to be delivered while a Hammer with straight blades was going to take 8-9 months. It turns out that the MM actually took 6 months to be delivered.

I ordered the MM through a retailer. I had a good experience with them and used them again for another purchase. Overall, the buying experience was fine and delivery went well. The pork chop guard broke within a week or two (the spring was hyper extended) but it was not good to begin with. I took that as an opportunity to get the euro guard. I contacted Parts Pronto (SCM parts) and ordered the euro guard set (it is a two piece setup). It arrived in less than 2 weeks and it is a major performance upgrade.

I have been more than happy with the machine. Mine has the mechanical digital indicator on the wheel used for raising the plainer bed and it is a great feature to have and I’d recommend it.

As I was waiting for the jointer planer to be delivered, I seriously started looking at new table saws. I first looked at American style cabinet saws, but then decided to make the leap to a euro slider. I quickly narrowed it down to MM and Hammer. This time I went with Hammer. The choice came down to a few factors: the size of the machine; the fact that Hammer sells through their sales reps; and the availability of accessories. The Hammer was customizable so that I could go with the size that fits my setup best. I went with the 48 (slider length) x 31(rip capacity) as it fits my space much better. Any wider on the rip capacity and it would not be a good fit at all, it is still over 60” wide with the crosscut fence on the slider. I liked that I could buy through a Felder sales rep and this allowed the customization. Finally, the ease of ordering and getting accessories in the future was a factor. I don’t really need any accessories for the jointer planer, but knew I would want add-ons for the saw and SCM does not appear as user friendly on that front. Finally, I may be wrong in my opinion, but the saw seems like a more complicated machine with more potential for future issues, and I like knowing that it should be fairly easy to contact Felder to get service. Based on my experience, and as Erik mentioned, they answer the phone and respond to emails. I cannot say that MM won’t do the same, but my one experience in contacting them directly to order the euro guard left me a little uncertain whether I would actually get the part or not. As noted above, I did get the part without issue so my initial concern may be misplaced.

Overall, I am happy with both purchases. I have had the MM since April and have had the saw for a month. Hammer pretty much nailed it on their estimate for when the machine would get to the port. It took a while after that to get to my house due to the port and trucking backups.

Build quality wise, they both seem well built. I have no data to support my opinion, but the MM appears slightly more robust or stout. I have not used calipers to check the thickness of the steel on the bodies/bases, they may be the same. I feel like the cast iron table surface on the MM has a nicer finish than the Hammer saw has. Both of these were upgrades from bench top or Jobsite machines, so I am not able to compare the cast iron surfaces to other manufacturers.

Bottom line is that I have been happy with both machines and think both companies make very nice machines. I like Felder’s sales model in that I worked with their sales rep, who was always responsive and followed up when it was scheduled for delivery and reached out again after delivery. The Felder US headquarters in Delaware was also responsive and easy to work with. The sales rep was able to reduce the price, even after I had placed my order and paid my deposit when I noticed that there had been a price reduction on the website e-shop. With all that said, I would probably still go with the MM jointer planer again based on my experience with the machine (and the tersa head), but I realize it may be a roll of the dice when it comes to customer support. Please note: my skepticism on the SCM customer support is based off of a very limited experience of ordering an accessory and just a review of forum postings saying that the service is very hit or miss. Time will tell what my experiences will be.

[Josh Baldwin]

I have SCM and Felder in my shop, I personally prefer SCM, or Minimax.

For Hammer gear, I found this when I googled Hammer A3-41 Youtube....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5-cjNa_yJU&t=684s

Hey Albert, yea I saw this video, but the more disturbing part is actually the comments section. There are many other people that had the same issues that eventually just gave up and sold their machines, etc. I can't find any real examples of this type of problem on SCM machines.

[Josh Baldwin]

Josh,
I have a Minimax FS30c and a Hammer K3 Winner (saw). My thought process on purchasing the respective machines is as follows:

I first started looking at Jointer/planer combos about a year ago. I strongly considered the Jet JJp-12 as it was on sale last October and the discounted price was very attractive. I did lengthy research on the web and came to the conclusion that I would not be as happy with the Jet as I would with a Hammer or Minimax. Primarily it had to do with the tables going out of coplanar on the Jet and difficult readjustment. So then it was a decision between Hammer and MM. I chose the MM for a couple of reasons. I had decided that I wanted the straight blades (one was partly a cost thing and second, my research indicated that many folks were very happy with the resulting surface, noise was not a factor for me). MM has the Tersa head and all of my research showed it is a great straight-blade system. The MM was originally supposed to take three months to be delivered while a Hammer with straight blades was going to take 8-9 months. It turns out that the MM actually took 6 months to be delivered.

I ordered the MM through a retailer. I had a good experience with them and used them again for another purchase. Overall, the buying experience was fine and delivery went well. The pork chop guard broke within a week or two (the spring was hyper extended) but it was not good to begin with. I took that as an opportunity to get the euro guard. I contacted Parts Pronto (SCM parts) and ordered the euro guard set (it is a two piece setup). It arrived in less than 2 weeks and it is a major performance upgrade.

I have been more than happy with the machine. Mine has the mechanical digital indicator on the wheel used for raising the plainer bed and it is a great feature to have and I’d recommend it.

As I was waiting for the jointer planer to be delivered, I seriously started looking at new table saws. I first looked at American style cabinet saws, but then decided to make the leap to a euro slider. I quickly narrowed it down to MM and Hammer. This time I went with Hammer. The choice came down to a few factors: the size of the machine; the fact that Hammer sells through their sales reps; and the availability of accessories. The Hammer was customizable so that I could go with the size that fits my setup best. I went with the 48 (slider length) x 31(rip capacity) as it fits my space much better. Any wider on the rip capacity and it would not be a good fit at all, it is still over 60” wide with the crosscut fence on the slider. I liked that I could buy through a Felder sales rep and this allowed the customization. Finally, the ease of ordering and getting accessories in the future was a factor. I don’t really need any accessories for the jointer planer, but knew I would want add-ons for the saw and SCM does not appear as user friendly on that front. Finally, I may be wrong in my opinion, but the saw seems like a more complicated machine with more potential for future issues, and I like knowing that it should be fairly easy to contact Felder to get service. Based on my experience, and as Erik mentioned, they answer the phone and respond to emails. I cannot say that MM won’t do the same, but my one experience in contacting them directly to order the euro guard left me a little uncertain whether I would actually get the part or not. As noted above, I did get the part without issue so my initial concern may be misplaced.

Overall, I am happy with both purchases. I have had the MM since April and have had the saw for a month. Hammer pretty much nailed it on their estimate for when the machine would get to the port. It took a while after that to get to my house due to the port and trucking backups.

Build quality wise, they both seem well built. I have no data to support my opinion, but the MM appears slightly more robust or stout. I have not used calipers to check the thickness of the steel on the bodies/bases, they may be the same. I feel like the cast iron table surface on the MM has a nicer finish than the Hammer saw has. Both of these were upgrades from bench top or Jobsite machines, so I am not able to compare the cast iron surfaces to other manufacturers.

Bottom line is that I have been happy with both machines and think both companies make very nice machines. I like Felder’s sales model in that I worked with their sales rep, who was always responsive and followed up when it was scheduled for delivery and reached out again after delivery. The Felder US headquarters in Delaware was also responsive and easy to work with. The sales rep was able to reduce the price, even after I had placed my order and paid my deposit when I noticed that there had been a price reduction on the website e-shop. With all that said, I would probably still go with the MM jointer planer again based on my experience with the machine (and the tersa head), but I realize it may be a roll of the dice when it comes to customer support. Please note: my skepticism on the SCM customer support is based off of a very limited experience of ordering an accessory and just a review of forum postings saying that the service is very hit or miss. Time will tell what my experiences will be.

Hey Ian thanks for all the info. I'm really torn right now for sure. But I just keep reading lots of bad experiences with the Hammer, whether it's on Youtube or other forums. I can't seem to find any bad experiences with the Minimax other than making sure it's not damaged when it arrives and being willing to make the freight guys wait while I inspect it.

[Jim Becker]

Keep mind that it's a "normal" thing for folks who have issues to complain loudly on the Internet when they have issues but are less prone to do so when they are enjoying the product. Vehicle forums are a really good example of that. I could be wrong, but I suspect that Hammer/Felder sells more machines of this type than some other manufacturers so that can skew things a bit at first glance relative to "reviews" and problem descriptions.

The shipping problem is real no matter what the brand is, too. Erik has mentioned this more than once, particularly relative to less experienced LTL drivers out there at this point. A lot of the gurus retired when things ground to a slow pace at the height of the pandemic. (if you know anyone who is or wants to be a truck driver, there is a "yuge" need right now...like 60-80K drivers are needed to get things back to "normal") So yea...be sure to carefully check things over.

[Brian W Evans]

Josh,

I have a Minimax fs41c and am very happy with it. I have the Tersa head, which I love, and I added a Wixey DRO to the planer bed. I have had the machine for four or five years and have had no issues with it whatsoever. Dust collection is very good, even with my mediocre system.

My purchase experience was excellent and Sam Blasco checked in on me by phone and email a couple of times during and after the process.

Assuming nothing has changed in the design or manufacturing, I would definitely recommend this machine.

[Robert London]

Seems like there’s more people buying the Hammer A series. Maybe because Felder is more aggressive about selling and minimax isn’t really focused on pushing the machines. Mimimax is a 1 man show and Sam Blasco covers the entire U.S market by himself as it seems. I enjoy watching his YouTube videos.

[Mike Kees]

I have no experience with either of the jointer/planers you are looking at. I do however have some perspective on Felder vs .Minimax machines. I own a Felder K700s sliding TS and a Felder edgebander. I also currently own a Minimax sliding table shaper. Used to have a Minimax Sc2 sliding saw. I find both brands to be excellent machines and think most people would be very happy with either. To me the difference I see is that Minimax are more all business (slightly more utilitarian-stout) . Felder seem slightly more refined while still being constructed very well. I would go either way if I had to do it all over again. Service was not a consideration for me up front as my machines were all purchased used. It may be one longer term if I ever require parts. One more thing ,do not overlook just how good Tersa heads are. I would hands down take Tersa all day long over a segmented head. Nicer finish, knife changes in minutes that set themselves precisely. What is not to like ?

[Ian Guy]

Josh, I am very happy with the Minimax jointer planer and as I mentioned, I’d likely buy it again. The tersa head is great so far and gives great surface results.

I tried to do as much research as I could before buying, but there just didn’t seem to be as much information about MM machines as with Hammer/Felder, so I kind of felt like I was taking a chance. As Jim mentioned, it may be due to the fact that there are more Hammer and Felder machines out there in the hobbyist world then MM, so more people are posting about them on forums like this. I recall that most of the MM complaints seemed to be delivery damage and/or customer service support.

So far, I have no regrets and think it is a great machine and see no reason to doubt the quality or craftsmanship. As you and others have noted, shipping and delivery with any machine may be the wild card these days, but that has nothing to do with the build quality. I think most of the Hammer complaints are due to shipping damage as well, I don’t perceive that there is a quality control issue in which they are shipping out defective or subpar machines. On that note, I was more impressed with the crating for the Hammer—it had a cage made out of 2x4s all around it. The MM had an sturdy cardboard cover over the machine. Best of luck in your buying decision.

[Josh Baldwin]

You guys are giving me a ton to think about! Haha
Now Felder is offering the machine for a few hundred less than the Minimax. This is probably the toughest tool decision I've had to make as there doesn't seem to be a clear winner overall. I'm going to make a decision by tomorrow and I'm sure I'll be happy either way. If anyone has more input that's useful that would be great, but so far I think you guys have answered all of my major questions.

[Kevin Jenness]

If either of the machines you are considering has a motorized planer table lift option, get it. Cranking the table manually when changing functions is a pain, especially when milling that one mis-cut or forgotten piece.

[roger wiegand]

1) I'm pretty sure you can't make a bad choice among these models. It's a good dilemma to be in.
2) I've got a segmented head, which beats my old straight knife machine hands down. I've never had the chance to use a Tersa machine, so I don't know what I'm missing.
3) What Kevin said about the motorized table lift.

[Warren Lake]

I dont find it a pain to raise a table on a quality machine in fact it reminds me that is a quality machine. They dont all feel the same, my progress stroke sander was like Shaolin Training number 84. Yes grasshopper when you can wind the table down and back up in 4 hours then you can leave the Monestary.

[Albert Lee]

just to make life a little more interesting if you dont mind some more reading...

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f154/felder-thicknesser-feed-roller-friction-wheel-243521

my problem with SCM machine is that the user manual are translated badly and might as well be in Italian and let me guess what they are trying to say...

[Warren Lake]

Albert not sure I can the photos photos and no time. The only improvement id make on my SCM is to make handles out of wood. I did this on the mortise machine and it makes it much nicer to use, more so when the shop is cold. Simple thing huge difference when using.

467029

[Mike Wilkins]

No experience with SCM products but I love my A3-41 machine. The surface finish is so nice that I considered selling my double-drum sander. The sander was a purchase to smooth out the ripples from my old 12" jointer-planer machine, but I keep it around to smooth cutting boards.
No problems at all with the Hammer. You will not be disappointed.

[Josh Baldwin]

Well after a ton of deliberation and a major discount I went with the Hammer A3-41. It ended up being about $500 less and I think both machines have their positives and negatives. Hopefully when it gets here in March it'll be flat! Thanks again for everyone's help

[Rod Sheridan]

You’ll it Josh, and you would have loved the other machine just as much, both are great choices.

Yes it will be flat, enough. It’s not a surface grinder, it’s a woodworking machine.

Enjoy, please keep us posted…..Regards Rod.

[Rod Wolfy]

Well after a ton of deliberation and a major discount I went with the Hammer A3-41. It ended up being about $500 less and I think both machines have their positives and negatives. Hopefully when it gets here in March it'll be flat! Thanks again for everyone's help

Josh,

Just a note. I'm happy with my A3-41. I purchased a dial indicator, an extra jointer guard & covers, extension table supports and the 13" extruded aluminum tables. You might do the same. I mounted one of the outfeed support tables on the planer and the other on the infeed of the jointer. I've been doing a new workbench and the 8' 8/4 beech was pretty heavy and the table helped a lot on the infeed side. I made a wooden wheel with dowels for raising and lowering my planer bed with a cordless drill. The jointer guard & covers were about $30. I cut the extra aluminum 16" guard with my bandsaw down to a 9" and a 7", and then put the extra covers on the ends. Now I have 3 guard covers, so that I don't use the same knives all the time on the jointer and have to step around the end of the euroguard (which I much prefer over my porkchop one of the past!).

[Christopher Charles]

Hi all,

Reviving this thread as I'm currently on the cusp of ordering a J/P after many years of looking. As with so much in this world right now, things have changed a bit. Both machines are on sale right now, but the comparable Hammers are considerably lower in price than Minimaxs. In fact, the A3-41 (w/spiral) with is less than the FS-30 Cx, i.e., the Hammer 16" is less than than the Minimax 12":

A3-31 (w/spiral): $4,607
A3-41 (w/spiral): $6,185
FS-30 Cx (w/spiral): $6,495
FS-41Cx (w/spiral): $8,095
FS-30 C (w/tersa):$5,995

Additionally, shipping looks to be a bit more from SCM and third party SCM dealers. While I'd lean toward a Minimax machine, the price difference right now makes it a bit of a no-brainer to order a Hammer.

What I'd really like to find is a reasonable deal on a used machine, but that's turning into a bit of unicorn hunt...

Thoughts, comments welcome.

[Michael Burnside]

I recently went through exactly what you did. In the end I went the non-combo route for personal reasons/preferences that I will not debate here. Having said that, I looked long and hard at that many of the machines you listed. I'm a serious hobbyist woodworker/CNC and from that position I felt both would be perfect for my long term needs in terms of doing what they're supposed to do. Switching between tool functions I feel SCM is the better and having the tersa blade as an option is a huge plus, for me. If cost is a factor Hammer seems like the way to go. I also had a better experience getting response to inquiries for Hammer products as a hobbyist, but that could have just been my bad luck.

[Derek Cohen]

Assuming that (1) build construction is the same for each manufacturer (and I believe it is), and (2) switching between jointer and thickness-planer is a non-issue (since whatever it is, one gets used to it), then the important features in my experience are:

(1) ease of accurate set up, such as having a digital gauge - that is a game changer. Bed extensions are important for some (I’ve not found this so for myself). The digital gauge makes it possible to return later and machine another board to the exact same -and predetermined - thickness.

(2) ease and longevity of the cutting edge, rather than the absolute surface quality remaining - one could debate carbide inserts vs tersa blade, but this is irrelevant when you will either finish hand plane or sand the surfaces. I have had my A3-31 for about 8 or 9 years now, and it has strong hobby use with abrasive Australian hardwoods. In all this time I am now on the third turning of the cutters. So, around 15 years before changing them out?

(3) Noise is a major concern for me. I do not want my family or my neighbours to be inconvenienced in any way. The Silent Head and carbide cutters are indeed silent.

(4) Ultimately, reliability and technical support will be the decider. What can you expect? In my city - and, indeed as I understand Australia-wide - there is more available backup for Felder. The Felder service in Perth is nothing short of amazing! I had two recent adventures, one was the replacement of a broken part (connector) on the A3-31, and the other was purchasing a short rip fence (as a bump stop) for the K3. Correspondence was unbelievable - answering emails on a Sunday night! Both arrived at my doorstep within two days by courier, which is unheard of in Oz.

It is difficult to write this without is sounding like glowing recommendations for Hammer. That is not my intention. It is rather to draw attention to why my praise is such, and that this will affect choices.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Christopher Charles]

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Michael, I've thought long and hard about separates, but space is and will be a concern for at least the next 4-5 years. And I also use 8"+ boards quite frequently and thus a J/P will add value with the wider jointer.

Derek, I'll absolutely be adding the digital wheel on the Hammer or a DRO with any other set up. Noise is also an issue with me, so leaning toward spiral for that reason, but a used Tersa machine would also do the trick (i'm upgrading from a jet engine disguised as a lunchbox planer).

I wish I could make a decision based on service/dealer location, but I'm a bit in the hinterlands, so the idea of paying for a service call is essentially a non-starter. This is one of the reasons a used machine is attractive-warranty for these machines will not likely do much for me beyond parts replacement.

[Rich Konopka]

I just received my A3-41 a week ago and I finally have it unloaded, unpacked, and in my shop. There were no dips in the bed or manufacturing issues thus far. I will be powering up the beast today and testing it out.
If they have them in stock in the US, I would not hesitate. The extensions are on backorder for another 6-8 weeks along with the 140mm to 4inch dust port reducer.

[Thomas Crawford]

I've had my A3-41 since late 2020. I personally have not gotten the bed extensions but I missed having them on one project, more for edge jointing some long boards. Overall absolutely zero complaints. The dust collection is good. Only planing extra thick pieces starts to leave some chips. Its very quiet as others have mentioned.

I've only had to turn a few of the cutter heads. I nicked one of them and just turned a few in the same location because it wasn't obvious by sight. which one it was. The aluminum handle and digital display are worth it. I dialed it in decently but more important to me is matching pieces to each which this enables. I did have to recalibrate it once.

Additionally the Bora Portamate 3550 has been a perfect fit for a mobile base.

[Ola Carmonius]

I'm not super impressed by the bed extensions. At least mine tilts downwards when loaded with something heavy, which is pretty much what I need them for, lighter things I often can handle without extensions. I nowadays see mine more as in- and outfeed support than extensions, and that's quite a difference. Others experience on the extensions? Have you checked them with a straight edge under load?

[James Cheever]

I have the A3-41. It is a great machine. I haven't had any issues with it at all. Like Thomas, I set it on a Bora Portamate 3550 base.

[Michael Burnside]

Michael, I've thought long and hard about separates, but space is and will be a concern for at least the next 4-5 years. And I also use 8"+ boards quite frequently and thus a J/P will add value with the wider jointer.

Yea the combo units are a boon to workspace savings. I build fine furniture and the occasional charcuterie board and what not, so I've personally never jointed >8". Too much risk for wood movement. So 8" is more than enough as I generally like to joint my boards when they are close or at final dimensions (I often use the in/out method for my glue-ups). But for planer, yea, for sure some width is great and certainly the need for >8" there.

[Matthew Hills]

I got an A3-31 used, with straight knives and dial indicator. Overall I've liked it. I'd recommend either tersa or carbide over traditional straight knives. Dial indicator is very handy. I did buy the felder snorkel (elbow for the dust port), oh and get wax for the planer beds. I like the euro guard fairly well. My fence attaches at the end of the table (rather than the middle), and I had the segmented plastic guard behind the fence. Do pay attention to the fence and guard setup if your shop is space constrained.

I did see youtube by Plexus Woodworks in which he had some issue with A3-41 and was happier with the SCM FS41E.

Matt

[Rich Konopka]

I have the A3-41. It is a great machine. I haven't had any issues with it at all. Like Thomas, I set it on a Bora Portamate 3550 base.

I too went with the PM 3550 mobile base and I was wondering how much room did you have around the A3-41 when you had your bolt pattern finalized.

Because the front it not as wide as the back of the machine I have some play and the machine moves within the mobile base. Im using a couple pieces of plywood to bridge the sloppy gap. I guess it wont matter as much because I won’t be moving it as much but I was looking for a better solution to address this issue.

Thanks

[Phil Gaudio]

My experience: prior to buying the FS41e a few years back, I was considering an equivalent Felder machine. In the final analysis, what made the decision easy was the pricing scheme. SCM's pricing was simple and transparent. Felder's pricing was anything but. If you enjoy used car salesman tactics, then Felder might be for you. Maybe I just got the one bad sales rep. at Felder?

[Thomas Crawford]

I too went with the PM 3550 mobile base and I was wondering how much room did you have around the A3-41 when you had your bolt pattern finalized.

Because the front it not as wide as the back of the machine I have some play and the machine moves within the mobile base. Im using a couple pieces of plywood to bridge the sloppy gap. I guess it wont matter as much because I won’t be moving it as much but I was looking for a better solution to address this issue.

Thanks

There is some play in mine as well. I don't move it more than a few feet on a very flat slab so I haven't noticed it moving on the base. If you had to roll it over something I could see it moving.

[Thomas Crawford]

I'm not super impressed by the bed extensions. At least mine tilts downwards when loaded with something heavy, which is pretty much what I need them for, lighter things I often can handle without extensions. I nowadays see mine more as in- and outfeed support than extensions, and that's quite a difference. Others experience on the extensions? Have you checked them with a straight edge under load?

I thought it comes with an extendable leg to support it?

[Ola Carmonius]

I thought it comes with an extendable leg to support it?

Maybe the longer aluminium ones but the short ones are supposed to only hang on the tables, no leg support. https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/shop/table-extensions-and-sliding-bridge-sc123958/table-extension-for-hammer-sp675158

[Christopher Charles]

Thanks to all for the good info. Phil, fwiw, I have found the Hammer pricing to be straightforward so no issues there but maybe that's because its just a base model with add-ons?

Still would love to find a used unit, but that's looking less likely. And waiting to hear from my accountant on what taxes will look like this year-lol!

[Michael Rutman]

I got the hammer strictly because it has the European style guard. I really dislike the sliding plate, I always feel like it's exposing too much of the blades. That's just me, I really like the European style where the entire blade is under the plate.

[Phil Gaudio]

I got the hammer strictly because it has the European style guard. I really dislike the sliding plate, I always feel like it's exposing too much of the blades. That's just me, I really like the European style where the entire blade is under the plate.

My Minimax came with both (the euro guard was one of the few extras). I agree that it is better than the stock pork chop, particularly on wider machines.

[Aaron Inami]

Based on what I have read, OSHA has not approved the euro guard style on these machines, so the pork chop guard is required for any machine going into a business shop.

[Michael Burnside]

I got the hammer strictly because it has the European style guard. I really dislike the sliding plate, I always feel like it's exposing too much of the blades. That's just me, I really like the European style where the entire blade is under the plate.

Funny, I feel the opposite, especially for edge jointing. That said, I did think it was pretty cool there was an option to have either on the Hammer.

[Andrew Templeton]

I can tell you that I have had both the Hammer and the Minimax machines... I had a terrible experience with the Hammer as the fence leaves much to be desired. I also wanted a powered bed so I am running the higher featured FS41ES and would never go back to the Hammer. I have been very happy with my Minimax with one exception: I miss the euro guard of the Hammer. I know I can purchase one for my Minimax, but I did not do it at the time of purchase as I figured I would try to get used to the pork chop guard and I just don't like it. Once I finally get a euro style guard there won't be anything I would change on my machine after a year with the machine.

I will say that I optioned the FS41ES I have with the Tersa cutter instead of the helical like I had on the Hammer at the advice of the sales rep. I am very happy with the finish of the Tersa head and the life I am getting out of a set of carbide knives I purchased for it. It leaves a nicer finish than the Hammer did with the helical head on all surfaces but the most heavily figured wood.

[Derek Cohen]

What was wrong with the Hammer fence, Andrew? And which Hammer/fence did you have?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Templeton]

I had the A3-31 and the fence did not like to stay in place. It liked to shift out of position so I would get inconsistent edge joints. Drove me nuts as I went through trying to square it up numerous times and it never liked to hold its position for long. Did not matter whether I would just snug it down or if I cranked the living crap out of the thing. The fence was just flimsy as hell and in my mind is really the weakest link of the machine. Also was not a fan of the aluminum bed extensions and most of the time I just removed the damn things. It was just not a good overall user experience in my mind as compared to my experience with the Minimax. I have compared the A3-31 to the A3-41 in person and can't say I walked away with a better impression than my experience. The Minimax in my mind just seems to be a bit of a sturdier built machine based upon my experiences with the two.

[Mike Leiferman]

I have a hammer sliding table shaper and a minimax J/P. Both single phase machines, about 4 kw, running at 240v.
The hammer requires the operator to hold the start button down until the motor reaches speed. The minimax doesn't. I also have a 5 hp single phase Agazzani bandsaw - no holding a button down. I think Felder cheeps out on some things, as I have read that the reason for the need to hold the start button until speed is reached is that they didn't spend the money to build that into the motor as most everyone else does. I do like the shaper. Got fid of my router table.

Another thing reading about felder equipment on the felder owners group is that some of their single phase machines use vfd's to convert their standard 3 phase machines to run on single phase. To me, that is a lot of extra electronics for a single phase shop that will eventually go bad, and the average owner will not know how to fix, and felder will just shrug their shoulders and say it is too old to fix.

finally, my minimax j/p has a tersa head, which I am amazed at the engineering of and how quickly I can change the three knives. I think it does a better job than the byrd spiral in my Dewalt, but I am keeping the Dewalt to hog down material since those carbide knives last a long time.

two cents worth -
m

[Paul J Kelly]

Mike,

I agree that some of the things on a Hammer machine can seem "entry level" but I have a Hammer HS 950 and I would not call that machine "entry Level".

As far as the VFD question, from what I know, those were older machines, circa 2000-2006. The new machines sold by Felder are either single phase or three phase without a VFD. Some upper end Felder and Format4 machines have options for variable speed on the feeds or the main motors. Those could incorporate a VFD, but I have not seen a schematic to validate that.

I also have an SCM machine (L'invincible range) and it is incredibly well made. Is it better than my Format 4 machines? In some ways yes, in other ways they are just different.

PK
PKwoodworking

[Matt Barmash]

Hey all,

I will give some additional thoughts since I just went through this process. I ended up with a with the MiniMax FS-41E. I came in to the situation wanting a better fence that stayed in square without me having to check it every time I tried to edge joint.

I started looking at the Hammer and it looked great and I was super excited about the idea of a combo machine where both planer and jointer were beefy with a single footprint. I am a hobbyist at home, so space is key. I was looking at the hammer AC-41 but also looked at the felder AD-731. I was interested to see if the better quality and features such as a two speed planer would be better than the larger unit. In the end, I went back to knowing I wanted the larger size. At the same time, I was also looking at the MiniMax. Going back to my main concern, I was looking at images of both the hammer and the MiniMac FS-41C and was skeptical about the fences. I called both companies and both were helpful.

I went to Sacramento to look at the Hammer. Given the price, if I liked it, that would be the machine for me. Local support, local pickup and lots of options I would like. However, looking at the fence and the overall mechanism of the jointer table lift, I did not feel like this would work for me. The reps were great, but were honest and cautioned me that setting the jointer table to planar takes time and is not easy. They also let me know that because of the extra weight of the 41 over the 31 (without more base to hold it), the 41 caused more issues. I left thinking I would step up to the Felder, be happy and be done. They had a 741 in stock up on the shelf and I was able to put my hands on a 941 to get an idea of felder quality, which was great.

In looking at the Mini (online only), I actually felt more comfortable with the hinges and mechanism to make the table planer on their FS-41C, but felt that the extra base width on their FS-41E along with the stronger post the fence rides on (a solid bar right by the cutter head), was a much better solution.
So now it was down to the MiniMax. FS-41E vs the Felder AD-741 and I know both are great machines.......................................... And

Price -
Here is were it fell down for Hammer/Felder.
A hammer 41 was around 7K whereas the Mini FS-41C was 8k with shipping.- Going head to head, I still think the mini won out here by a bit for their jointer table design that would not go out of wack as much.

Stepping up to a Felder 741 went to a whopping 14k to get to the same options as Mini FS-41E. I was able to get the Mini for 10.2k including shipping and other than the electric lift, which I did not need or want the mini was every bit as good. I did ask the rep about getting a felder without the lift but it only dropped the price $900 and I would have to wait until November to order one.

In the end, Felder/hammer pricing left a huge gap between machines and Mini sweeps in and slits the difference while being 2.8K cheeper than the AD-741.

Hope that helps as this seems to be a common journey for lots of folks.

[Christopher Charles]

Thanks Matt, your experience is helpful (kind of-now you've got me thinking about a 41e...lol).

Best,
Chris

[Mike Wilkins]

Satisfied owner of the Hammer A3-41 here. I had a Chinese made J/P with the separate jointer table lifts to get to the planer function and straight knives. The Hammer leaves a clean smooth surface ready for 120 grit on the random orbit sander. The spiral head does not leave the washboard surface like straight knives, even with careful set-up.
Felder/Hammer usually runs sale specials once or twice a year.
My machine must have set up carefully from the factory since it was spot-on from the factory. I agree the fence is the least quality of the machine, but it stays true 90; I still check it with a square just to be sure. No experience with the Mini-Max line but it looks like they make some quality tooling.

[Christopher Charles]

Hi all,

Quick question for folks with Minimax machines--how thin can the planer go? I've seen Darrell Peart take 2-3 thou off on a pass with a A3-41 on YT--can the MM do the same? May have a line on an older (2004) FS 41 e...

Best,
Chris

[Jim Becker]

Christopher, the issue with very light cuts is the machine uses serrated metal feed rollers and those can mark the material if there's not enough cut to remove it. My experience is with the FS350 from about 2005 and I suspect that the FS41 from that era is pretty much the same other than having 410mm of width instead of the 350mm of width I have. When I need to take off "just a little", I use the drum sander.

[Christopher Charles]

Thanks Jim, that’s helpful. The machine is also 3 phase which is not something I’m too afraid of but would also like to avoid if I can. And at the same time the step up from the classic to elite is tempting.

[mike stenson]

I'll go ahead and ask this here, because I simply can't find the information for the minimax. Does anyone know what the circuit requirements are for the FS-30 and FS-41? "4.8hp" really isn't enough for me to know if I need to run a new circuit. I like the fact that I won't have to with a Hammer A3, but I can't get a response for a quote from the sales rep. Which makes it awful hard to buy.

edit: not even getting a pre-sales response out of a salesman is a huge red flag, making me wonder if I'd have to call Austria for post-sales support. Meh.

[Aaron Inami]

For the 4.8HP Minimax, you need a 30 amp 240V circuit. On the Felder, you should be fine with a 20 amp circuit. There is some controversy here. Some people say 20A, some say 30A.

[Phil Gaudio]

I'll go ahead and ask this here, because I simply can't find the information for the minimax. Does anyone know what the circuit requirements are for the FS-30 and FS-41? "4.8hp" really isn't enough for me to know if I need to run a new circuit. I like the fact that I won't have to with a Hammer A3, but I can't get a response for a quote from the sales rep. Which makes it awful hard to buy.

My FS41e is rated at 21 amps. So a 30 amp circuit would be correct. Having said that, I have operated my machine on a 20 amp circuit with no problems for years.
509356

[mike stenson]

For the 4.7HP Minimax, you need a 30 amp 240V circuit. On the Felder, you should be fine with a 20 amp circuit. There is some controversy here. Some people say 20A, some say 30A.

Yea, the math is easy, since I could actually find the specs. The Felder draws less than 15 amps, so my 20amp would suffice without an issue. Thanks Aaron!

[mike stenson]

My FS41e is rated at 21 amps. So a 30 amp circuit would be correct. Having said that, I have operated my machine on a 20 amp circuit with no problems for years.
509356

thanks Phil!

I really appreciate the plate pic. That's what I trust.

[Aaron Inami]

My FS41e is rated at 21 amps. So a 30 amp circuit would be correct. Having said that, I have operated my machine on a 20 amp circuit with no problems for years.


The FS41e at 4.8HP will likely draw about 10-15 amps on startup and about 3-4 amps running without load, so I can see how you were able to run on a 20 amp circuit successfully. The problem occurs if you get into a "full load running amps" scenario where the 20A circuit is not to code because the motor has the potential to blow past that. If you have a house fire, they could decline coverage just because you plugged a machine into an improper circuit, even if the machine did not cause the fire. Insurance inspectors get really picky on any technicality to void an insurance claim.

[Jim Becker]

I'll go ahead and ask this here, because I simply can't find the information for the minimax. Does anyone know what the circuit requirements are for the FS-30 and FS-41? "4.8hp" really isn't enough for me to know if I need to run a new circuit. I like the fact that I won't have to with a Hammer A3, but I can't get a response for a quote from the sales rep. Which makes it awful hard to buy.

240v, 30 amp, three wire. (no neutral required) This is the reason that my general machine circuit is configured that way as it handles both the nominal 5hp machines and the lower horsepower/lower amperage 240v machines.

[mike stenson]

240v, 30 amp, three wire. (no neutral required) This is the reason that my general machine circuit is configured that way as it handles both the nominal 5hp machines and the lower horsepower/lower amperage 240v machines.

Right now I have a 20amp circuit, because that's what was there. Sounds like I pull the breakers and pull new feed wires and install a sub (easiest solution all in, certainly the most flexible long term. Just adds to time and costs. Time being the thing I was hoping to avoid at the moment).

[Jim Becker]

Right now I have a 20amp circuit, because that's what was there. Sounds like I pull the breakers and pull new feed wires and install a sub (easiest solution all in, certainly the most flexible long term. Just adds to time and costs. Time being the thing I was hoping to avoid at the moment).
If you are ok with surface mount...PVC conduit is darn easy to put in place so you can add the 30amp circuit without having to let go of the existing 240v 20 amp circuit...assuming you have breaker space available. Use one or more "really big" J-boxes so the new 30 amp receptacles can be home runs off the junction. It's easier to pull and easier to change. I used Wagos in the big boxes that were designed for #10 wire and that made the whole machine circuit install really easy.

[mike stenson]

If you are ok with surface mount...PVC conduit is darn easy to put in place so you can add the 30amp circuit without having to let go of the existing 240v 20 amp circuit...assuming you have breaker space available. Use one or more "really big" J-boxes so the new 30 amp receptacles can be home runs off the junction. It's easier to pull and easier to change. I used Wagos in the big boxes that were designed for #10 wire and that made the whole machine circuit install really easy.

I'm fine with surface mount, and I'd be happy to bend and mount EMT ;) The problem is that I have a single conduit between buildings, and a 14" slab that goes under. So, to upsize I gotta remove the existing circuits in that, pull new feeds and install a sub. Anything else and I'd be past max-fill. So a few days without any service in my shop, and really a bit of a busman's holiday I wasn't ready to tackle at the moment.

[Jim Becker]

I'm fine with surface mount, and I'd be happy to bend and mount EMT ;) The problem is that I have a single conduit between buildings, and a 14" slab that goes under. So, to upsize I gotta remove the existing circuits in that, pull new feeds and install a sub. Anything else and I'd be past max-fill. So a few days without any service in my shop, and really a bit of a busman's holiday I wasn't ready to tackle at the moment.
Sorry, I missed the part about needing a new subpanel to add the circuit. That's definitely a harder decision. There is a lot of merit in improving the power availability in your shop if you both use it frequently and might consider additional "big iron" type tools over and above the J/P. I do agree with Aaron's point that these machines might run ok on 20 amps if they are not under heavy load, but start putting wider material thought and things change. They do work a lot harder then and, of course, get hungrier. So the best practice is to have a circuit appropriate for the tools specifications to cover all the bases and not have constant issues keeping it running. That's not good and potentially unsafe if something doesn't kick off correctly.

[mike stenson]

Sorry, I missed the part about needing a new subpanel to add the circuit. That's definitely a harder decision. There is a lot of merit in improving the power availability in your shop if you both use it frequently and might consider additional "big iron" type tools over and above the J/P. I do agree with Aaron's point that these machines might run ok on 20 amps if they are not under heavy load, but start putting wider material thought and things change. They do work a lot harder then and, of course, get hungrier. So the best practice is to have a circuit appropriate for the tools specifications to cover all the bases and not have constant issues keeping it running. That's not good and potentially unsafe if something doesn't kick off correctly.

All of this, is why I was leaning towards the Hammer ;) Improving power delivery has been on the list of things to do, but I'd rather it come along after say, clerestory window replacement.

To be honest, both will suit me fine. Since I'm just trying to free up space that my current jointer and planer are occupying, get a jointer width upgrade in the process, and if needed I'm fine with face and edge jointing with hand planes... Otherwise, I work with 3ph stuff pretty much daily, so I'm comfortable with calculating circuit requirements from the plates. Thanks guys! I really do appreciate it.

[Jim Becker]

Mike, if the Hammer will work with the power source you have, by all means that's the choice I'd make, even being a "fan boi" of SCM Minimax. :)

[mike stenson]

Mike, if the Hammer will work with the power source you have, by all means that's the choice I'd make, even being a "fan boi" of SCM Minimax. :)

I agree. But I can't get them to give me a quote. I've emailed and left voicemails with my 'rep', but nothing since initial contact.

[Jim Becker]

Are you dealing with someone "in your territory" or in Delaware. If not the latter, call them and see if they can put a bug up someone's backside or just give you the quote directly.

[mike stenson]

Are you dealing with someone "in your territory" or in Delaware. If not the latter, call them and see if they can put a bug up someone's backside or just give you the quote directly.

He's out of Anaheim. Thanks, I'll try that. Normally salesmen can smell money.

[Christopher Charles]

Hi Mike,

I nearly went with a Hammer 41 but found a FS30c used. Did add a 30A circuit that created nearly as many headaches as you face. For the Hammer, I was getting quotes from Liz in CA and can pm you you her email if helpful. In fact she emailed today to check in.

[mike stenson]

Hi Mike,

I nearly went with a Hammer 41 but found a FS30c used. Did add a 30A circuit that created nearly as many headaches as you face. For the Hammer, I was getting quotes from Liz in CA and can pm you you her email if helpful. In fact she emailed today to check in.

Chris, it sounds like that would be great.

[Dan Richeson]

I find my self in the same boat now between the the Felder and MM. I read through this thread and no talk of the AD531. I just don't want problems with the beds with spending this kind of money. I watched the youtube vide on the guy who sent his Hammer back as the beds were off .010 or more. Was this problem only on the 16" models? Lots of comments with other saying the same thing about theirs. I had a 12" Jet and now I need to get another one coming here ASAP. Thanks

[mike stenson]

Mine (a3 31) arrived Monday, took about a month from payment to delivery. I saw a few comments like that before ordering, then again, I also work with warranty stuff daily, so there's always a percentage that misses targets etc. No matter how carefully you QC. I haven't done any measurements, but I also didn't during the 20 years I had the powermatic it replaced. Mostly because I pretty much tend to just leave it alone unless there's a problem.

I was missing a couple spacers for the extension table mounts, made a call, and they're on their way. So far, other than issues with the sales rep, everything else has been great.

edit: I went out when I had lunch and checked. I can't get a .010"/.25mm feeler gauge under my Starrett straightedge. So the beds, and the bed alignments are within spec as delivered. I didn't bother seeing where they are past that. Checked the head alignment with the out feed table as well with a oneway multigauge, and it's also within spec.