Buying used machinery

[Jeff Roltgen]

As I am tempted to purchase a particular machine from a seller on another woodworking site, I am also very uncomfortable about sending money out with zero assurance that a complete stranger will do anything but take the money and not ship the item. Feels legit, but I'm getting cold feet...
Any recommendations for a safe transaction, or just don't do it unless I can pick up locally, exchanging cash for the machine in person?

[Warren Lake]

ive done it to get things done. See it call buy it then go see it pay for it. Its not ideal as there are many full of crap humans. I was happier in auction land for 40 years but even that shifted from live to the net even before covid so unless you go on preview day you wont know.

A machine is one thing, a machine being used in a production shop that was running until it folded is another. Some shops that have gone down ive taken clipboards off the side of machines with maintenance schedule. That I only saw on old school european shops 50 employees and up. Some of those machines were likely 50 years old.

[Myk Rian]

As I am tempted to purchase a particular machine from a seller on another woodworking site, I am also very uncomfortable about sending money out with zero assurance that a complete stranger will do anything but take the money and not ship the item. Feels legit, but I'm getting cold feet...
Any recommendations for a safe transaction, or just don't do it unless I can pick up locally, exchanging cash for the machine in person?

What is the other web site? There are many and we can help you with the reputation of the site.

[Jeff Roltgen]

It's a classified on woodweb.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I think that some companies can offer buyer protection; for example, eBay (I am pretty sure). eBay charges a fee, of course, and the seller might want you to pay the difference so that they still get their desired amount.

[Warren Lake]

Myk makes a good point as well, I know of one careless site where stuff was stolen before pickup day. Ive caught people stealing in the past at live auctions. I had to tare strips off another that sells for specific group of people in canada and the US. They didnt go to bat for me at all when the seller did hanky panky. In that cause the customer removed stuff after the sale, thank god for screen saves. Very crafty teacher, I took the item and told them they would be charged with fraud. I guess I dont have much patience in the end but im also old enough and from a time when people used to do more with honour. There are still tons of great people. Your trick will be to figure out who you are dealing with.

[Richard Coers]

If at all possible, go get it in person. I bought a huge industrial copy lathe on a super cheap eBay auction. I had to pay riggers to move it out and get it ready for shipment. Their estimate was good enough, but I didn't get an estimate on the shipping crates. That was another $300. Then I put down the wrong freight code according to the shipper, and underestimated the weight by 200 pounds and that cost me a few more hundred. It's hard to dispute the extra shipping charges when they have your credit card number on file. That said, I will never use Freight Quote again. So even after your reluctance to trust the seller, there are also more trap doors that can elevate the cost very quickly.

[John TenEyck]

See how many posts that person has on the site. I trust people with thousands of posts a lot more than one with 1 or 2, or even 10. Also, I think PayPal offers you some protection as well. Finally, talk to the person. Ask them for their phone number and call them up. You can usually figure out if someone is legit or not after talking with them for a few minutes. And if you still don't feel comfortable take a pass.

John

[Michael Schuch]

If the seller is asking for cash, wire transfer, postal money order, etc. THERE IS NO WAY I would go forwards with the transaction!

If the seller is willing to accept PayPal I would go for it even if I had to cover the extra PayPal fee myself. DO NOT use PayPal friends and family thing to save a few bucks... it is the same as doing a wire transfer and you have no recourse, no protection! Pay a few bucks more and do a standard PayPal purchase, you are paying extra for the insurance from PayPal that the item will arrive as promised. I have purchased MANY used things online from large to small and I have never been ripped off when using PayPal. The whole purpose of PayPal is to provide protection from scammers.

I would tell the seller "PayPal or you aren't interested". If the seller says "Sorry I don't have PayPal" then walk away!

I have opened a half dozen cases with PayPal over the past 15+ years for items that were never sent, the wrong item was sent, the item was broken, etc. and always prevailed. Once I purchased a shaper cutter off of ebay and the seller sent some S&M binding straps which I would guess cost them less than $1 and a note saying "a present to thank you for your business". The seller put tracking on the package and put the tracking number into the PayPal transaction then asked PayPal to release the money when the tracked package arrived in my mail. After I figured out what was going on and figured out the scam I opened a case with PayPal and got my money back. True story!



Feels legit, but I'm getting cold feet... If it didn't "Feel Legit" then they wouldn't be a very good scammer!

[David Buchhauser]

I would consider using Paypal. Have the buyer draw up a sales contract and send you a Paypal invoice (payment request). If the seller fails to deliver, then Paypal will refund your payment.
David

[Paul Haus]

Be careful with Paypal, they aren't perfect either. I got scammed last winter on some things I ordered for Christmas gifts and disputed it and eventually they came back with "Tough luck"

[Jim Becker]

There are two general risks with buying used machinery "at a distance"...the financial piece and the "is it what it's represented to be" piece. For the former, using a payment method that provides some level of buyer protection is pretty essential and PayPal has already been used as an example. No money orders or cash in the mail; no Venmo or similar, no PayPal "friends and family", etc. For the latter, it's always more ideal to be able to fondle the machine or material in person, but that's not always a realistic possibility for some things. Sometimes you can get someone else to examine it. You could also ask the seller to give you a video tour via FaceTime or similar with you directing them to show you any detail you notice during the interaction. And anytime that little bell is ringing in your head...listen to it. If there are photos available to you, use them do to an Internet search with Google Images to make sure the same photos are not being used in multiple advertisements in multiple cities which sometimes happens with true scammers. And if the price is too good to be true, it likely is too good to be true.

I have not bought and sold a lot of stuff online, but I've done enough to feel generally comfortable with it in many cases. Every deal is different.

[Mike Kees]

about a year ago I posted a Sharkgaurd and a modulus scoring unit on Kijiji. 20 minutes later just as I sat down in my easy chair a guy texted me ,wanting both items. He made me a offer, I said yes then he etransfered me the funds right away. Next he requested that I ship the stuff to him the cheapest Canada Post way. Texted him the cost and he sent another immediate etransfer for shipping. The total was in the neighborhood of $500. I have since purchased a State spindle sander 6 hours away, that a friend picked up after I paid. Got the sander for $175 so figured the risk was livable. Was really surprised with the buyer trusting me with no prior contact etc. The deal I did was finalized after I talked to the seller on the phone and simply was a risk I was willing to take that worked out fine. I would not do this for a bigger machine. I have prepaid like a $100 deposit sight unseen so someone would hold a machine a couple days till I could get there. I do this with the clear understanding that if I do not show my money is gone ,and if I do and buy said machine that it is part of the purchase price.

[roger wiegand]

I've done a number of transactions for fairly large sums of money that have in almost all cases worked out perfectly. I tend to communicate enough so that I feel comfortable, backing off if there is anything about the arrangement that seems "off". I'm sure I could get scammed, but I'm not willing to go through life with a high level of suspicion of my fellow humans. I don't do deals where I couldn't afford to take the loss if the deal went south.

I had one transaction for a couple thousand dollars where I think the seller was simply incompetent, or perhaps a potential (but incompetent) thief. Our local police department talked to his local police department, who talked to him and I got my money back.

[Mark Hennebury]

The only safe way is to go there, hand over cash and take the machine.
Otherwise do your due diligence, make your best judgement, and take your chance.
The risk is the price you pay, to play.
If you get screwed, accept that the world is skewed against you getting things settled fairly.
It's really hard, stressful, expensive and time consuming to get back what was taken from you, or even a part of it.
Some people are great, honorable and decent, and some are assholes, unfortunately they are not labeled.
The "justice System" is not. It doesn't exist, there is however a legal system based on enforcing order...on the law abiding (I.E. you) This is how the crooks manage to rob you, they steal from you today, and the court system makes you hire a lawyer and take them to court, and several years later you will accept a settlement of half of what you were owed.
Its a great system... for the thieves.

Good luck

[Mark Hennebury]

I have bought and sold a lot of machines over the years, most work out well.

I have had many transactions, a few that didn't work out, so it's not that rare.

One i lost $10,000 on a eBay deal about 15 or more years ago.
I bid on a laser, someone out bid me. I got an email from "eBay" two days later saying the highbidder backed out and i could have the laser for what i had bid if i was still interested.
I sent the money as instructed.
No response.
Contacted eBay, they said that they never sent me any emails.
I contacted the guy that had the laser advertised, he said the laser was sold to the highbidder.
So I was conned! Welcome to eBay!
The money was sent through Western Union ( a money laundering company for crooks)
eBay did nothing, Zero!
The police did nothing! Not true really, they did tell me they they weren't going to send two cops across state to arrest the guy that took my money, saying that he probably was just the mule for a Russian organized criminal group. Oh and told me to fuck off and stop pestering them.
Western Union, did do something, the hid the identity of the person that took my money, and told me that it was the law. They also told me that they same guy had collected $30,000 that week from other people he was robbing.
They also told me that they had video cameras in the store, so the guy was on video. They of course wouldn't give the video to me ( against the law) and the police weren't interested in going to get it.

So if you are not familiar with the justice system...this is how it works.

I got lots more if you need.




I've done a number of transactions for fairly large sums of money that have in almost all cases worked out perfectly. I tend to communicate enough so that I feel comfortable, backing off if there is anything about the arrangement that seems "off". I'm sure I could get scammed, but I'm not willing to go through life with a high level of suspicion of my fellow humans. I don't do deals where I couldn't afford to take the loss if the deal went south.

I had one transaction for a couple thousand dollars where I think the seller was simply incompetent, or perhaps a potential (but incompetent) thief. Our local police department talked to his local police department, who talked to him and I got my money back.

[Warren Lake]

Okay you win,

Im very sorry to hear that. Serve and protect. Where is Denzil when we need him. Been in some of the systems you cant fight and done okay. If you win you didnt win. Takes so much energy, its all set up to make anyone give up, some almost set up to let it be that way.

[roger wiegand]

Western Union would be one of those red flag tip-offs to abandon the deal. As is anyone who asks you to do something outside the Ebay architecture. Always read the detailed email headers to see whether the email is coming from the claimed source, and never reply outside the messaging system that you access by logging into the website-- never click a link that someone sends you.

[Alex Zeller]

Even regular Paypal isn't fool proof. The way it works is they have your bank account information and when you sign up you agree that they can get pull money out of your bank account. The problem comes when a seller opens an account and sets up a Paypal account linked to it to transfer the money to. If the seller can transfer the money and withdraw it before Paypal tries to get it back there's not much that can be done by Paypal. To open a bank account you need information that police can track so it's not worth doing for a small amount.

[Bob Falk]

I've done a number of transactions for fairly large sums of money that have in almost all cases worked out perfectly. I tend to communicate enough so that I feel comfortable, backing off if there is anything about the arrangement that seems "off". I'm sure I could get scammed, but I'm not willing to go through life with a high level of suspicion of my fellow humans. I don't do deals where I couldn't afford to take the loss if the deal went south.

I had one transaction for a couple thousand dollars where I think the seller was simply incompetent, or perhaps a potential (but incompetent) thief. Our local police department talked to his local police department, who talked to him and I got my money back.


+1 I have also bought many pieces of machinery/tools remotely with no issues. I think the key is sizing up the seller. If they are at all cagey or uncommunicative, walk away. Honest sellers will usually go out their way to help.

I recently bought a $10,000 used car from 2000 miles away, sight unseen and it worked out well. Because it was so much money, I used a third party escrow company (escrow.com). Both buyer and seller have to agree to the terms. I deposited the money into the escrow account and the money was not transferred to the seller until the item was delivered. Only cost a couple hundred dollars for the service.

[Erik Loza]

My 2-cents: Folks selling used woodworking machinery tend to be pretty honest and I would be reasonably trusting of the deal. That being said, the real challenge these days is avoiding freight damage, due to the general lack of experienced CDL truck drivers. All my biggest headaches lately are from delivery damage. In my opinion, no matter how sweet the deal seems, if I was unable to personally go and pick up the item, wouldn't be interested. Again, just my 2-cents. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

Erik

[Patrick Kane]

My 2-cents: Folks selling used woodworking machinery tend to be pretty honest and I would be reasonably trusting of the deal. That being said, the real challenge these days is avoiding freight damage, due to the general lack of experienced CDL truck drivers. All my biggest headaches lately are from delivery damage. In my opinion, no matter how sweet the deal seems, if I was unable to personally go and pick up the item, wouldn't be interested. Again, just my 2-cents. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

Erik

I agree. Trust your fellow citizens, 99% of them are good people. This natural distrust of people really upsets me. Im not telling you to go out and do reckless things, but i think people automatically assume distrust over trust. For example, if i had a flat and someone stopped to help me on the side of the road, my first thought would not be, "this person is going to rob, rape, and murder me". For a lot of people, that would be their first reaction.

I agree with everyone else, Paypal business transaction should be pretty safe for you. Unfortunately, it doesnt cover you from missing parts, damage, wear n tear. That is where you need to be intelligent, ask the right questions, and finally, sack up. I hate to say it, but the latter part is the important part of any used machine purchase. When buying used, you dont have the privilege and benefit of a Felder customer support person holding your hand and assuring you everything is going to be all right. That is why you are saving potentially thousands by buying used. Its on the Buyer to shoulder the risk and figure things out for themselves. I dont mean for that to come across as being a jerk, but a lot of people buy used things, find a bolt missing, and then come online to a forum to say they got screwed by the Seller. Unless you are buying from a third party machine seller, id probably assume this machine is going to need a few misc. parts etc. Account all of that into your offer.

I will fly in the face of conventional wisdom with my experiences. I have sent money orders for sevarl thousand, paypal friends and family, venmo to ushippers to pull cash and pay buyers, and several personal checks to sellers. Those are all risky things to do!! The seller can absolutely pocket your $4,000, and theres really nothing you can do about it. Sue someone for the $4,000? Sure, your attorney fees will be that much or more. I guess you could drive the 8-10 hours to go sucker punch them at their doorstep, but that is about the extent of your options if the person is a crook. However, the above is necessary if you want the deals, and in my experience, guys that run small shops arent crooks. Most of the time i end up talking machines with them for 30 minutes prior to sending the money. Each one of those examples, i ended up with the tool or machine from hundreds/thousands of miles away for shockingly low prices. More risk, more reward. Educate yourself on the machine you are buying, talk through potential downfalls with people that know more than you about the machine, and then determine if the risk is worth the savings from buying new. I havent been burned yet, and maybe its because im lucky. Its also because i go into things eyes wide open, and if i go in half-blind, then my offer to the seller will be extremely aggressive. If you buy a tool for scrap value, then you really cant lose, and thats the important part.

[Bob Falk]

I agree. Trust your fellow citizens, 99% of them are good people. This natural distrust of people really upsets me. Im not telling you to go out and do reckless things, but i think people automatically assume distrust over trust. For example, if i had a flat and someone stopped to help me on the side of the road, my first thought would not be, "this person is going to rob, rape, and murder me". For a lot of people, that would be their first reaction.

I agree with everyone else, Paypal business transaction should be pretty safe for you. Unfortunately, it doesnt cover you from missing parts, damage, wear n tear. That is where you need to be intelligent, ask the right questions, and finally, sack up. I hate to say it, but the latter part is the important part of any used machine purchase. When buying used, you dont have the privilege and benefit of a Felder customer support person holding your hand and assuring you everything is going to be all right. That is why you are saving potentially thousands by buying used. Its on the Buyer to shoulder the risk and figure things out for themselves. I dont mean for that to come across as being a jerk, but a lot of people buy used things, find a bolt missing, and then come online to a forum to say they got screwed by the Seller. Unless you are buying from a third party machine seller, id probably assume this machine is going to need a few misc. parts etc. Account all of that into your offer.

I will fly in the face of conventional wisdom with my experiences. I have sent money orders for sevarl thousand, paypal friends and family, venmo to ushippers to pull cash and pay buyers, and several personal checks to sellers. Those are all risky things to do!! The seller can absolutely pocket your $4,000, and theres really nothing you can do about it. Sue someone for the $4,000? Sure, your attorney fees will be that much or more. I guess you could drive the 8-10 hours to go sucker punch them at their doorstep, but that is about the extent of your options if the person is a crook. However, the above is necessary if you want the deals, and in my experience, guys that run small shops arent crooks. Most of the time i end up talking machines with them for 30 minutes prior to sending the money. Each one of those examples, i ended up with the tool or machine from hundreds/thousands of miles away for shockingly low prices. More risk, more reward. Educate yourself on the machine you are buying, talk through potential downfalls with people that know more than you about the machine, and then determine if the risk is worth the savings from buying new. I havent been burned yet, and maybe its because im lucky. Its also because i go into things eyes wide open, and if i go in half-blind, then my offer to the seller will be extremely aggressive. If you buy a tool for scrap value, then you really cant lose, and thats the important part.


Well said Patrick!

[Jeff Roltgen]

Wow- thanks for all the incredible info- should edit/condense/post this as a blog for anyone else seeking advice for a safe, secure used machinery transaction. I really like the escrow/contract idea!

Meanwhile,
I have done some informal "background checking" on the web, and found it is actually another cabinet shop owner.
Have arranged to have a friend pick the machine up and exchange payment in person, at a neutral, public place (just like craigslist advises)
Saving on packing (+ for seller) and shipping, which I'll share with my agent (+ they needed a paid trip out of town) and I save a significant amount for a low-mileage machine.
I'll post when transaction is complete, but feeling much more confident with the arrangement at this point. Hope others have gleaned some helpful insights here as well - just seeking a reasonably formulated process that results in a fair, secure transaction for all parties involved.
Wish us luck!

jeff

[Randall J Cox]

Most of my big old Delta and Rockwell machines I bought used and rehabbed them. However, I have always looked at them in person, made a decision, paid them and took the machine. Know this doesn't answer your question but its the way I do it. I always like to look at the setting they are in and talk with the previous owner. Randy

[Patrick Kane]

Wow- thanks for all the incredible info- should edit/condense/post this as a blog for anyone else seeking advice for a safe, secure used machinery transaction. I really like the escrow/contract idea!

Meanwhile,
I have done some informal "background checking" on the web, and found it is actually another cabinet shop owner.
Have arranged to have a friend pick the machine up and exchange payment in person, at a neutral, public place (just like craigslist advises)
Saving on packing (+ for seller) and shipping, which I'll share with my agent (+ they needed a paid trip out of town) and I save a significant amount for a low-mileage machine.
I'll post when transaction is complete, but feeling much more confident with the arrangement at this point. Hope others have gleaned some helpful insights here as well - just seeking a reasonably formulated process that results in a fair, secure transaction for all parties involved.
Wish us luck!

jeff

Nice, that is getting creative, Jeff. Precisely how a buyer needs to operate if they want to buy high quality things on the used market.

Other than it being on Woodweb, what are you buying? Something small, i take it?

[Joe Jensen]

How large is the machine? I've been burned by an an online machine auction company Machinery Max not properly palletizing a large expensive machine. As a result the pallet broke and collapsed and the machine fell over in transit and it was destroyed. Nobody takes responsibility. Claims adjusters from two parties determined it was Machinery Max's fault. Machinery Max's response from their VP. "Stalemate" in other words sue us. My lesson. I no longer buy a machine where I am not able to be there to ensure it's properly prepared and I no hire professional riggers to load.

[Brian Holcombe]

Be careful, and pick it up in person. I’ve had a few machines shipped and it is always nerve wracking. Luckily most have been well crated, the Wadkin DM and Ulmia as example were just beautifully crated and properly bolted to their pallets. That’s not always the case.

Sonetimes you get that and sometimes you get a ‘running’ machine in which every rubber part is dead, the wiring has been hacked to bits, internal parts poorly modified, hidden damage carefully undocumented in the many photos you receive and nothing but excuses when it arrives. When I bought the Maka I knew I was in for a restoration, a more recent purchase however seemed promising but required considerably more work than expected. That’s the risk you take.

[Mark Hennebury]

Patrick, either you haven't made many purchases or you have been exceptionally lucky!

People contemplating buying and shipping used machinery need to know what can and does happen occasionally.

I have made a lot of purchases from all across Canada, The USA, Japan, Germany, England, France etc.. Most have gone well, most people are good and decent people, BUT there are many things that can go and do go wrong, when that happens you get to see a different side to things. For the most part everyone, slams the door in your face and walks away, and you will find yourself alone with a damaged, broken, worthless machine, you will be out thousands of dollars, and stressed out and frustrated, and angry talking to the people involved, who will all refuse liability. You will have limited options, hire a lawyer, which will cost you a bunch of money and take maybe a year to settle out of court for half of what you are owed. Suck it up and take the loss and move on.

Beside the example that I gave of what happened to me nearly 20 years ago, when I was new to dealing with internet transactions, cons, fake emails, and Western union, eBay, the police etc... I had a good education and avoided that type of situation happening again, but still, Stuff happens and you are left holding the bag.

Machines get damaged in transit, the transport company will deny and delay, and drag it out for a year hoping that you will go away, all the while that you are paying your lawyer. Then they will make a settlement offer to cover your lawyers fee and give you a fraction of what the machine was worth. Your lawyer will recommend you accept.

When selling online some people post old photos of machines, when they were newer and in better condition, you get quite a surprise when the machines arrive. That is misrepresenting a product plain and simple; Ever try to get your money back? Nobody wants to refund you.

I have purchased several machines that arrived damaged, and like I said, I can give you lots of examples. And in case you think that it's just me, here is one from this forum from last year.

A used machine shipping nightmare


To make a very long story short, I now have a used woodworking machine, about 2100+ pounds in weight, laying upside down in the middle of my driveway with scattered parts here and there, after being dropped from a lift-gate/truck bed 6 feet above ground. The logistics company that I contracted with to have this machine shipped is not responding to my email/call. The freight broker, who contracted with the logistic company, essentially told me that he can't help and that it is my "problem because it is in my driveway," but he will contact the logistic company to tell that company to "step up." He wanted me to ask a couple of guy friends to flip it over since he could do it himself if he was standing in my driveway. The driver left in a hurry after the disaster and pointed his finger at the broker as the responsible party.

So, who is responsible in this particular situation? My contractual agreement is with the logistic company, so I think they should be taking responsibility. Or is it the freight company that dropped the crate in my driveway upside down after a 6-foot drop? Though, I did not enter into contract with the broker or the delivery company.

My guts feeling is that this is as good as it is going to get in this particular case. I will end up writing off the purchase price, crate fee, freight fee, and all associated costs of erecting the machine. I have not even considered the cost of fixing the machine, if it is indeed salvageable.

SW



Below is a crate delivered to my shop with a $20,000 machine in.
The crate has two forklift holes in it.
The machine was damaged.
The trucking company ( one of the largest in North america) denied responsibility. ( The machine was offloaded at eight depots while crossing the country.)
The seller denied responsibility.
The trucking company supplied me with a copy of the BOL signed by the driver and the seller stating that the crate was damaged when it was picked up.
The seller supplied me with his identical signed copy, with no mention of damage at all.

Someone lied, and committed fraud.

Eventually the trucking company settled out of court.
The machine sat in the crate for almost a year waiting to get the case settled.

It is at times like this that you realize the claims adjusters job is to Deny, Delay as long as possible, and if they absolutely can't get rid of you, negotiate the minimum payout that they can get away with.
And like I said, I have lots more stories.

467079



I agree. Trust your fellow citizens, 99% of them are good people. This natural distrust of people really upsets me. Im not telling you to go out and do reckless things, but i think people automatically assume distrust over trust. For example, if i had a flat and someone stopped to help me on the side of the road, my first thought would not be, "this person is going to rob, rape, and murder me". For a lot of people, that would be their first reaction.

I agree with everyone else, Paypal business transaction should be pretty safe for you. Unfortunately, it doesnt cover you from missing parts, damage, wear n tear. That is where you need to be intelligent, ask the right questions, and finally, sack up. I hate to say it, but the latter part is the important part of any used machine purchase. When buying used, you dont have the privilege and benefit of a Felder customer support person holding your hand and assuring you everything is going to be all right. That is why you are saving potentially thousands by buying used. Its on the Buyer to shoulder the risk and figure things out for themselves. I dont mean for that to come across as being a jerk, but a lot of people buy used things, find a bolt missing, and then come online to a forum to say they got screwed by the Seller. Unless you are buying from a third party machine seller, id probably assume this machine is going to need a few misc. parts etc. Account all of that into your offer.

I will fly in the face of conventional wisdom with my experiences. I have sent money orders for sevarl thousand, paypal friends and family, venmo to ushippers to pull cash and pay buyers, and several personal checks to sellers. Those are all risky things to do!! The seller can absolutely pocket your $4,000, and theres really nothing you can do about it. Sue someone for the $4,000? Sure, your attorney fees will be that much or more. I guess you could drive the 8-10 hours to go sucker punch them at their doorstep, but that is about the extent of your options if the person is a crook. However, the above is necessary if you want the deals, and in my experience, guys that run small shops arent crooks. Most of the time i end up talking machines with them for 30 minutes prior to sending the money. Each one of those examples, i ended up with the tool or machine from hundreds/thousands of miles away for shockingly low prices. More risk, more reward. Educate yourself on the machine you are buying, talk through potential downfalls with people that know more than you about the machine, and then determine if the risk is worth the savings from buying new. I havent been burned yet, and maybe its because im lucky. Its also because i go into things eyes wide open, and if i go in half-blind, then my offer to the seller will be extremely aggressive. If you buy a tool for scrap value, then you really cant lose, and thats the important part.

[Bill Dufour]

Police departments have set up a corners of their parking lots for folks to do the online transition/delivery/payment. It should be well lit with continuous recorded video surveillance. They only look at the video if someone complains. I bet a lot of the shady types will not even come to a police station to meet you.
Bill D

[Patrick Kane]

Mark, you are kind of in a different league than the rest of us. Not that i know your business, but you strike me as a part-time machinery dealer. Unfortunately, the laws of statistics are against you that you are going to have more horror stories to report, because you have purchased 20x more machines than me or anyone else. If you read the last half of my post, i agree with your points. IF something goes wrong, then its effed. That is the game you play when you buy used stuff. Joe's story haunts me everytime i look at a used tool 500 miles away. That is a turd situation, and there is no legal course out of it.

[Mark Hennebury]

Mark, you are kind of in a different league than the rest of us. Not that i know your business, but you strike me as a part-time machinery dealer. Unfortunately, the laws of statistics are against you that you are going to have more horror stories to report, because you have purchased 20x more machines than me or anyone else. If you read the last half of my post, i agree with your points. IF something goes wrong, then its effed. That is the game you play when you buy used stuff. Joe's story haunts me everytime i look at a used tool 500 miles away. That is a turd situation, and there is no legal course out of it.


Hi Patrick,
Yes I buy and sell a few machines, I am just a one man show, so It's not a large number of machines at all.

When you are dealing with big corporations, they have the bottom line as their priority, and they play the game, there are no ethics involved.
Individuals or small business where you are dealing with a single person making the decisions and they often have a moveable goalpost.

There are people with complete integrity and people with none, and both may be in the minority. The majority may be those inbetweeners, whose integrity is flexible. They are the ones who do the math, the cost /benefit analysis before committing to an action, they are proficient at justifying their actions.


The thing is there are lots of ways that things can go sideways, ways that you would never imagine, people, even seemingly nice decent people, can do things that are not nice when they want to. I am not talking about crooks and con artists, just regular people, Some make a deal, then change their mind! like children. Back out of deals, sell the machine to someone else if they get a better offer, or just change their minds and decide to keep the machine, I have had it happen numerous times, Even after I have paid in full for the machine. Some keep parts or sell them to someone else. I have had machines arrived damaged, broken, dropped, tipped over, crushed with forklifts etc, with parts missing, or stolen, new machines and used ones. I have purchased machines based on the photos only to find when the machine arrives that the photos were taken 15 or 20 years ago and the machine looks nothing like that any more.

I have customers call me all the time wanting me to find the a machine for them, So I hunt them down a machine make a deal, contact my customer, send them all of the information and photos, then after all of the work I have done and all of the education that i have given them about the different machines and options etc, they go on the internet and track it down with the information that I have provided them, and call the owner and try to cut me out of the deal. A guy did that to me with a machine that I found for him in Germany, The company in Germany told me that he contacted them trying to buy the machine direct from them, they refused to sell him the machine, and told him that they had an agreement with me. A great company to do business with! Not so nice of a customer.


I purchased a machine at an auction, when the machine arrived, a box of parts were missing, turns out the rigging company had loaded them in a container for Indonesia. The rigger offered to buy the machine off me for what i had paid for it! I said I wanted to keep the machine, he said that he would get my parts back. It took six months or more but he got my parts back and shipped them to me. You can't get better than that. A great individual to do business with!

There are good honorable people that value their integrity above profit, and there are people who say and think they are have integrity, right up until their is a price to pay, then they rationalize their way out of it. And I am sure that if you asked their friends and family, they would swear that they are great people.

A guy called me up and asked me if I was interested in buying his machine he was asking $5000, We settled on $4000 USD, I went into town did the bank wire transfer. Called one of my customers that had asked me to look out for one of those machines for him and sold it to him for $5000, He did the bank wire transfer to my bank, Done deal! Over the next couple of days while arranging transportation, The original seller emailed me saying that he changed his mind, wasn’t going to sell me the machine, and sent my money back. I lost $1000 sale, waisted my time, and cannot provide my customer with the machine that he has just paid for. Lucky that my customer was a good guy, and was willing to wait a few months while I found him a replacement machine, that I discounted $1000 for the inconvenience that I caused him. That’s the kind of crap that I have to deal with, all of the time. The original seller is no crook or conman, just a decent everyday guy with an adjustable sense of integrity and a convenient ability to justify it.

I made an agreement with a machinery dealer to purchase four machines from him, he agreed to give me 30 days to pay for them, two weeks in he stopped answering my calls, turns out he sold them to someone else. When i called him from a different phone number, and he answered, he tried to defends his action as a "business decision". My take is his business decision was the deal that he made with me.

Or this one below,

This is a sample of the photo used for the auction. I bid based on these photos. My customer agreed to buy it based on these photos.

467193
This is the condition of the machine that arrived.

467195 467196



The agent for the auction company that i have dealt with for 13 years refused responsibility, told me another machinery dealer supplied the photos.
The other machinery dealer denied responsibility, told me that another dealer supplied her the photos. He said he didn't see any problem.
I received a lot of abuse from all three parties, and was told by the auction company agent that here was no way that I would get a refund, suck it up and forget it.
Under threat of a lawsuit the auction company owner made a settlement.



I completely rebuilt the machine, at no extra cost to my customer. Cost me a lot. Completely stripped down , sandblasted, new clamps, new bearing new lineal rail, rebuilt feed cylinder, new seals, hoses, rebuilt motor spindles, spray welded and machined, rebored castings etc. etc. etc.

467188467187467189467190467185

This is the price you pay, if you want to play in this business.


You obviously have had a different experience that I have, my point of view is based on my experience. I have had a lot of good experiences and enough bad ones to be worried when I am involved in deals. People are fairly predictable, when there is a balance of power. The problem comes when the power is all on one side, then you have to deal with people doing the math, weighing up what they can get away with. This kind of stuff happens a lot, unfortunately it is not once in a blue moon stuff.

So if you are getting into this market, you should be prepared.

[Warren Lake]

Mark thanks for sharing all that. Im going to save it to help me pay attention more. Auctions were pretty good when they were regular and the machine was in front of you plus I could read the audience. some were plants. Online made it harder, far away made it harder. Appreciate you taking the time to write and share all that and the photos.

[Curt Harms]

A relevant blog post:

https://bytetechnology.com/blog/paypal-v-escrow-services-efficiency-and-safety-by-the-numbers/

[Mark Rainey]

Mark, thanks for your interesting description of your experiences; your passages give insight to the meaning of integrity and the frailties of the human condition.

[Wes Grass]

I've sold a number of things here, and on other forums, and haven't had any real trouble to speak of. That includes accepting personal checks, and shipping the item before receiving payment.

One took about 3 months for the check to arrive. Thought I'd been scammed for awhile, and then he contacted me with an apology. Scraped up his name and city, and found out he was a VP at an engineering firm. That made the final wait a lot easier.

Sold a handgun to a friend of mine. The dealer that did the transfer, retired LEO, had him meet in the parking lot at the station he'd worked at. He told me they were sitting on the tailgate of his truck finalizing the paperwork, a 357 laying in the open, and uniformed officers walking by saying 'hey Ken, hows it going?'

[Mark Hennebury]

Dealing with people is difficult whatever business you are in.

I have been mostly self-employed since the 70's, mostly as a woodworker with my own shop making custom furniture and built-ins, the last 15 or so years buying fixing and selling used woodworking machinery.

Responding to this thread has dredged up memories of many interactions that I had with customers all the way back to the beginning.

I have many more stories about transactions with machinery purchases and just as many with getting paid for woodwork.



Here is an odd one on the machinery vein;

I saw a Machine for sale on Woodweb.
I have purchased machines on woodweb before.
I know the dealer that has the machine listed for sale.
So, I buy the machine.
I am happy, the dealer is happy.

Then I get a phone call from an irate stranger, giving me a lot of verbal abuse for buying the machine, telling me that he was going to buy it. So, according to him that made it his machine. He hurled a stream of abuse at me, told he would spread the word that I was not to be trusted, and that no-one should do business with me, he ended up saying that he hoped that I had fun using his machine and slammed the phone down.

I called the dealer, he said he remembered the guy, said that this guy had spoken to him months ago and said that he wanted to buy the machine, and that he never paid for it, never showed up to get it and had never heard from him again.
The dealer said that it was his machine to sell, and he sold it to me. Done deal, and to ignore the crazy guy.

I never heard from the guy again, but it was still it was a little unsettling.

[Mark Hennebury]

Getting paid;

Woodwork stories;

There are stark differences within the two categories of woodwork;

1. Stand alone work. which the customer picks up from your shop,
2. Built-ins that you deliver and install at their premises.

Most transaction with stand alone furniture were trouble free, not so with the built -in side of things.
If you think about for a bit you will see that the power dynamic is totally different, and that I believe is the reason for the different results.

In Stand alone furniture making transactions it goes like this;

The customer gives me a deposit. They are making an investment and taking a risk.
I buy the materials and make the furniture, So I have invested my time and need to get paid.
The customer arrives at my shop.
We have both made an investment, and want the return on our investment.
They want the furniture and I want to get paid.
A reasonable balance of power, and the transaction goes smoothly.


The power dynamic in built-ins is totally different;

The customer gives me a deposit.
I buy materials, build the desk, wall unit, stairs, cabinets whatever, then install them in their premises.
Now they have the product and the cash balance!
And I have… anxiety.

It’s showtime!
This is when the monsters emerge!

Now I get see who I have been working for.


Is the person going to hand over the check and shake your hand?

Are they going to hold onto the check, feel the power that they hold.... and make you dance?

If they decide to make you dance, and you have a family to feed, the safest thing to do is dance!

You can of course learn to play the game, reverse or balance the power, but there is a big risk and a possible crippling cost if you lose.

It is always interesting!

[Ron Selzer]

Mark, thank you for all the information you have given
Makes me feel better about the times I have felt screwed over as they could have been much worse than what they were.
Majority of mine were items improperly packed for shipping and then damaged with the seller refusing to take the blame.
Lucky for me all were wants and not needs. Some were very rare and have not found replacement parts for, but none affected my ability to provide for my family.
Ron