Electric Cars

[John Terefenko]

For those that own electric cars a few questions?? Do you like your choice as opposed to having a gas operated one? Would you do it again? Did you have to make changes to your insurance plans, both vehicle and home? If so what? Being there is a higher risk with battery fires from charging and now you had to add a charging port in your house plan somewhere is that a concern for you and did it effect your insurance? Are the batteries in the car warrentied? If so how long? Have you had to replace any yet and if so how much and were you able to get rid of old? Thanks. Maybe we can get a discussion going on electric cars and the pros and cons.....

[Rick Potter]

We have three plug in hybrid cars at our house. two Ford C-Max Energi's, and the grand daughter's Honda Clarity. No full battery cars yet. My daughters house 6 miles away has solar, a Tesla, and a plug in Prius.

We charge two of them on 110V, with a level 2 charger for the third. We have already run two 50A circuits to the garage, for future use.

No insurance issues. The same agent handles all our insurance (State Farm), and nothing has ever been mentioned.

Batteries are all warrantied by law for 100,000 miles (150,000 in CA) There is an amount they are allowed to degrade over the period. Don't know what that is off hand.

Battery degradation in our experience has been very little, but I have heard of some types of batteries losing power because of frequent high power charging at public sites. We have never used one.

My next car will have a plug. My preference is for a plug in hybrid, which erases 'range anxiety', but I may go all they way on one and a plug in on the 'family car'. I will be waiting a year or two to see what is available.

Our situation is perfect for battery power, as we are in SoCal, have solar, and drive around town mostly. Your situation may vary. I would not even consider it if I lived in a condo in the Northeast.

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

We have been toying with EV for several years. We eased into it with a 2019 Kia Niro plug-in hybrid and really like the vehicle. We have been very pleased with doing all our local errands in EV mode and having the hybrid engine for trips beyond 30 miles. Our electric bill increased roughly $10 a month. No changes with State Farm insurance. We opted for a full bumper-to-bumper warranty for 10 years and plan to sell it before the 10 year mark. We have rarely used any charging stations when we have driven longer distances. The few charging stations we have seen were in use, and it was easier for us to stop at a fuel station.

Last year we picked up a spotless all electric Smart Fortwo project for dirt cheap. The owner had driven beyond it's range and drained the battery and left it parked for a year. Long story short, as soon as the battery was functioning again and scrounged up parts, we sold it to someone that only intends to do short trips into town with it and was fully informed of replacement part challenges. You simply cannot get parts related to the EV system.

We are seriously looking at the Ford Lightening and finally selling our 2000 Chevy Duramax workhorse. We will be watching the towing reviews.

We are also planning on having solar installed in the next few months.

[Jim Matthews]

https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v19i2.pdf

There's a conventional gasoline car fire every three minutes in the USA. There have been 12 Chevy Bolt fires - all 2017-2019 models. There's an active recall.

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/chevrolet-bolt-recalled-again-due-to-fire-concerns-a3566085147/

17,000 miles on my 2019 KIA Niro EV last year, 90% within 30 miles of home. 100% within 70 miles.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?291256-Electric-Car-Challenges&highlight=Electric+cars

Compare and contrast replies, particularly from those that have never driven an EV, and wouldn't know hot from neutral.

[Weogo Reed]

Hi John,


Three years ago we bought a 2014 Mitsubishi I-MiEV and love it.

We had to replace the wiper blades.



Range with a mix of local and interstate driving is about 50 miles in the winter and

70 miles in the summer. All batteries have less available energy when cold.

The battery is warranted to have 80% capacity available at ten years / 100K miles and

right now is still close to 99%.

Used EV batteries still have quite a bit of capacity and are being rebuilt, or

repurposed as home or business backup power systems.

Almost all the charging is on a 240V L2 charger.


With the rear seats folded it has a really big, flat space for carrying stuff.

The wheelbase is longer than our Honda Fit and the Mitsu rides better on the interstate.


Thanks and good health, Weogo

[Stan Calow]

Between my two gasoline vehicles and lawnmower, I usually have about 25-35 gallons of explosive petroleum products in my garage. Now that's a fire hazard.

[Dave Lehnert]

I live 6 miles round trip from work. An electric car would be ideal for me but I have concerns.

- We take a trip (or two) every year to our favorite spot. about 250 miles each way. How in the world do you make long trips for a week? This is in the country and never ever seen a charger at a hotel or gas station.

Hate to think what is now a few hours trip would turn into days to get there stopping to charge.

[Dave Lehnert]

Another question.

How do you deal with the electric bill for everyone in the family? Say you have a house full of teen drivers all with electric cars. Does the chargers have some kind of meter to gauge usage for different drivers. Be a sweet deal if the kids could all hook in and charge at the house vs buying gas themselves? Or relatives that come to visit from out of state.

What does it cost to charge a car?

[Mike Henderson]

Another question.

How do you deal with the electric bill for everyone in the family? Say you have a house full of teen drivers all with electric cars. Does the chargers have some kind of meter to gauge usage for different drivers. Be a sweet deal if the kids could all hook in and charge at the house vs buying gas themselves? Or relatives that come to visit from out of state.

What does it cost to charge a car?

Let's assume that you have a vehicle with a 75KWh battery. You aren't going to run it all the way down - you'll charge when there's maybe 25% left or about 18.75 KWh left in the battery.

But most vehicles recommend that you not charge to 100%, so let's assume you charge to 90%. That means you need to put 48.75 KWh into the battery.

Now, we need to estimate your electricity cost. Let's say it's $0.15 per KWh. In that case, a charge will cost $7.31. It will actually be a bit more because charging is not 100% efficient. Let's assume 90% efficiency in charging - that would drive the cost to about $8.13.

Anyway, a charge in this example would be no more than $9.00. Not too bad, even if you have to pay for charging the children's cars.

Mike

[Doug Garson]

I live 6 miles round trip from work. An electric car would be ideal for me but I have concerns.

- We take a trip (or two) every year to our favorite spot. about 250 miles each way. How in the world do you make long trips for a week? This is in the country and never ever seen a charger at a hotel or gas station.

Hate to think what is now a few hours trip would turn into days to get there stopping to charge.
There are a number of apps available, including some preloaded in the car's infotainment system, that show locations of charging stations and directions to them and even wait times, so there may be some you didn't see. Plus, of course there are more being built every year.

[Rick Potter]

The obvious answer to Dave's question is to buy a plug in hybrid. Drive daily to work on the battery, charge at home, and use the motor to go on longer trips. My daughters Prius Prime plug in goes almost 40 miles on battery and still gets over 40 mpg on the motor because it is still a hybrid when the battery runs out.

We have been doing that since 2013 with our C-Max Fords, which are probably a generation or two behind her '20 Prius. We can only go 20 miles on battery, and the car gets 37 on motor. Now that we are retired, most of our driving is within the 20 miles, and we charge up sometimes two or three times in a day.

The new one we will get will go twice as far as our outdated ones, but I still prefer a plug in to straight battery just because it eliminates range anxiety. Best of both worlds.

[Peter Mich]

Mike, your calculations are helpful and appreciated. Now I am wondering about mileage comparison: How far can one drive on $9 of gas vs. a $9 electrical charge? At $3/gal and 25 mpg a gas-fueled car would go about 75 miles. That seems to be far less than the miles an electric car might achieve on a 90% charge, which could be a cost-saver in a household of teens.

[roger wiegand]

There's an app/web page that can help you think about trips in electric cars, called "a better route planner". You can enter the parameters for your car (if you have an account you can link it directly to some cars so that it will learn your actual driving habits, climates, and local terrain to make more accurate range predictions). You enter your intended destination and it will plot a route showing you where you need to stop and for how long along the way. You can tell it how much charge remaining you are comfortable with for both your stops and destination.

We're just waiting for the rebate situation to clarify prior to ordering a new car, which will almost certainly be a Tesla Y. At least in the northeast I'm not seeing any reason it can't be our primary vehicle, we seldom drive farther away than 5-600 miles, and all of the places we regularly drive have easy routes with redundant charging stations.

It's important to realize that time to a 100% charge is pretty much irrelevant. In reality you charge from 10-20% up to 80% on a trip, which in a Tesla takes about 20 minutes; going from 80 to 100% takes hours. A route from Boston to Cleveland (600 miles) in a Tesla Y long range will have three stops totaling an hour and nine minutes of charging. I'm at an age where I need to stop at least three times on a 600 mile trip! The same trip in a Mach E long range will require an hour and 45 min of charging time along the route. In thinking about electrics both range and that 20-80% charging time are important. More modern vehicles that use heat pumps rather than resistance heating are much less affected by cold weather.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I live 6 miles round trip from work. An electric car would be ideal for me but I have concerns.

- We take a trip (or two) every year to our favorite spot. about 250 miles each way. How in the world do you make long trips for a week? This is in the country and never ever seen a charger at a hotel or gas station.

Hate to think what is now a few hours trip would turn into days to get there stopping to charge.

First, it's quite likely that there is a charging station you don't know about - check out https://www.plugshare.com/ and search your destination. There are a surprising number of hotels, municipalities, grocery stores, universities, etc, that have chargers installed. They are often small pedestals in non-obvious places, so you might not know they exist if you don't search.

Second, you say that an EV would meet your needs all but 1 or 2 days a year. It does seem a little odd to deal with oil changes, air filter changes, stopping for gas, maintenance on 10x the amount of parts (typical gas car has 30k parts; only 3k in an electric), brake pad replacement (regenerative braking in an EV dramatically reduces brake pad use), etc, etc, just to support 1 or 2 days of use where the EV wouldn't suffice. For all that additional hassle and cost, couldn't you just rent a gas car for a weekend, if needed?

[Dan Friedrichs]

For those that own electric cars a few questions?? Do you like your choice as opposed to having a gas operated one? Would you do it again? Did you have to make changes to your insurance plans, both vehicle and home? If so what? Being there is a higher risk with battery fires from charging and now you had to add a charging port in your house plan somewhere is that a concern for you and did it effect your insurance? Are the batteries in the car warrentied? If so how long? Have you had to replace any yet and if so how much and were you able to get rid of old? Thanks. Maybe we can get a discussion going on electric cars and the pros and cons.....

I have a Tesla.
Love it.
Insurance was actually slightly cheaper (not sure why - maybe all the safety features?).
The risk of battery fires is non-existent. That's silly.
Already had a subpanel and 240V outlets in the garage for my shop tools - I just plug into one of the existing 240V 30A outlets.
No idea on warranty, but there is tons of real-world evidence that the battery longevity is not a problem.

Ultimately, I see the Tesla as the "car for people who don't want to fuss with cars". No oil, oil filter, air filter, stopping for gas, brake pads to change (they last forever because of regenerative braking), etc. The only maintenance is adding windshield washer fluid. It drives itself (literally). Incredible performance and comfort.

For the vast majority of people, an EV will be a superior performing car with way less maintenance and much lower operating costs.

For a small minority, their locale or use conditions will make charging difficult. If that's you, maybe don't get one.

[Jim Becker]

Our plan is that our next 'around town' vehicle will be an EV...likely the coming Subaru Solterra...and it will replace our MY20 Forester Limited. That gives us my larger Ascent for hauling and the smaller, EV for ratting around in. I think that will be a good combination for us. Charging at home will be no issue as I have an easily accessible sub-panel in the "garage" (currently my temporary shop) and can easily install both inside and outside 240v charging facilities.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... your choice ...

For your planning and shopping enjoyment, most if not all of the major oil and gas companies have business plans in place that project 100% of light utility vehicles sold worldwide will be all-electric by 2040-ish*. 'Light utility' defined as 1/2ton trucks or smaller. Obviously, O&G producers don't build or buy many** vehicles, but that is how production will be planned.

*- posted this before, but threads always get nuked.
**- their service fleets are small percentage of overall sales.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, your calculations are helpful and appreciated. Now I am wondering about mileage comparison: How far can one drive on $9 of gas vs. a $9 electrical charge? At $3/gal and 25 mpg a gas-fueled car would go about 75 miles. That seems to be far less than the miles an electric car might achieve on a 90% charge, which could be a cost-saver in a household of teens.

Well. if we assume the same 0.25 KWh per mile, and 48.75 KWh between 90% full and 25% full, you could go 195 miles at about 70 mph.

If it took 0.35 KWh per mile, you could go almost 140 miles at 70 mph.

Mike

[Warren Lake]

watched a you tube where an eel bit an aligator and it was electrocuted in seconds.

Eel was over 800 volts. Eel didnt have a battery as far as I know. He wasnt even grounded. Not sure if he was a single phase Eel. Im going to skip batteries and go straight to eels. Might give Elon a call this afternoon.

[Kev Williams]

watched a you tube where an eel bit an aligator and it was electrocuted in seconds.

Eel was over 800 volts. Eel didnt have a battery as far as I know. He wasnt even grounded. Not sure if he was a single phase Eel. Im going to skip batteries and go straight to eels. Might give Elon a call this afternoon.


--Eelon.. lol

[Ronald Blue]

While we have been considering a new vehicle and all but a few times per year our usage would easily fall under the maximum mileage of most EV's my concern on a trip would be availability of a charger when needed. I noticed a charging station at a fuel stop recently. Two connections and both in use. I see that as a problem if you try to use an EV for longer trips. I suspected they were "local" users and have no way of knowing if they were there 30 minutes or 10 hours. This is a rural area so car rental locations are a pain to access because they are close to an hour no matter what direction one goes. Can charging stations be reserved in advance? I see issues with that concept as well. How are those who would "camp out" at a charging station discouraged from doing such things? The idea of traveling and stopping every couple hundred miles is certainly doable but not if there isn't any charging capacity available when needed. Educate me please.

[roger wiegand]

While we have been considering a new vehicle and all but a few times per year our usage would easily fall under the maximum mileage of most EV's my concern on a trip would be availability of a charger when needed. I noticed a charging station at a fuel stop recently. Two connections and both in use. I see that as a problem if you try to use an EV for longer trips. I suspected they were "local" users and have no way of knowing if they were there 30 minutes or 10 hours. This is a rural area so car rental locations are a pain to access because they are close to an hour no matter what direction one goes. Can charging stations be reserved in advance? I see issues with that concept as well. How are those who would "camp out" at a charging station discouraged from doing such things? The idea of traveling and stopping every couple hundred miles is certainly doable but not if there isn't any charging capacity available when needed. Educate me please.

At the Tesla "supercharger" stations anyway there is a substantial surcharge added to your bill if you overstay the time needed to charge your car to ~80%, so there is a strong incentive not to leave your car there. I don't know whether the other charging networks work similarly.

[Ronald Blue]

At the Tesla "supercharger" stations anyway there is a substantial surcharge added to your bill if you overstay the time needed to charge your car to ~80%, so there is a strong incentive not to leave your car there. I don't know whether the other charging networks work similarly.

The one I observed recently was a "generic" station. Whether there is feedback between the vehicle and charger would be interesting. I suppose the current draw could also be how it's monitored as well. Just the fact that this is a small rural town and nearly everyone would commute to their jobs makes me think they were camped but I don't know that. I actually will be in that town this week so I will check and see if it appears vehicles are "camped" there again. I don't recall what brand was there but I know neither were Tesla's. They tend to be noteworthy.

[Kev Williams]

Personally-- I don't see this ending well...

Even with all the hybrid/EV/AF vehicles on the road, I can't remember the last time I went to a gas station that didn't have a half dozen or more cars filling up. Imagine if, right now, the ratio of gas/diesel to electric vehicles was flipped; what are the lines to get charged going to look like? And I don't see home-charging as much of an answer the moment, in many places it's hard to keep the central air running when it's hot, how's 'the grid' supposed to handle gazillions of cars constantly charging in addition to current electric demands?

just wondering... but honestly, I see some major growing pains in the automotive future...

[Lee DeRaud]

And I don't see home-charging as much of an answer the moment, in many places it's hard to keep the central air running when it's hot, how's 'the grid' supposed to handle gazillions of cars constantly charging in addition to current electric demands?I could have sworn we did a multi-page thread on this exact topic not too long ago...
Yup. OP was some guy with the initials "KW". :)

[Adam Herman]

I could have sworn we did a multi-page thread on this exact topic not too long ago...
Yup. OP was some guy with the initials "KW". :)

its difficult to answer questions when they are formed as an opinion not based on facts.

the answer is then assumed the same and to be thrown out, instead of considered.

the answer is, though, that most people charge at night when there is a much smaller demand on the grid, and evening out that demand curve actually makes the grid more efficient and the cars themselves present opportunity for surge capacity in the home when they are connected, and if you opt in, surge grid capacity.

as an engineer in the O&g industry and a current plug in and future EV owner, i'm excited about the possibilities.

[Mike Henderson]

Personally-- I don't see this ending well...

Even with all the hybrid/EV/AF vehicles on the road, I can't remember the last time I went to a gas station that didn't have a half dozen or more cars filling up. Imagine if, right now, the ratio of gas/diesel to electric vehicles was flipped; what are the lines to get charged going to look like? And I don't see home-charging as much of an answer the moment, in many places it's hard to keep the central air running when it's hot, how's 'the grid' supposed to handle gazillions of cars constantly charging in addition to current electric demands?

just wondering... but honestly, I see some major growing pains in the automotive future...

The majority of people with EVs will charge at home, not at public charging stations. With gasoline, you have no choice but to fill up at a gas station. People who will have to use public charging stations are those who have to park on the street, travelers, and those who forgot to plug in their vehicle at home. In my area, large companies are putting charging stations in their parking lots. They can automatically contact the employee to move the vehicle when it's charged. Failure to do so will revoke charging privileges.

In my area, there is an excess of electricity in the daytime because of the amount of installed solar. I suppose you could encounter problems on the grid, but we generally do not have such problems because solar generation is distributed into the places where the electricity is used.

The "crunch" time for electric power is in the evening when solar is tapering off. Rates go up at 4pm in my area. During the 8am to 4pm time they're practically giving electricity away. You can program you electric vehicle to charge during the time of lowest rates, which generally coincides with greatest availability.

As others have pointed out, the other time for low rates and low demand is generally overnight, perhaps from 9pm to 7am. Charging your vehicle at night actually helps the power company manage their system.

Mike

[Doug Garson]

No doubt there will be growing pains in the transition away from fossil fuels but the fact that every major car manufacturer in the world is investing millions in EV development and many have set dates by which they will stop ICE production, makes me think it will happen. Add to that, the fact that study after study shows EV' s are cheaper to own over as little as five years.

[Brian Elfert]

The majority of people with EVs will charge at home, not at public charging stations. With gasoline, you have no choice but to fill up at a gas station. People who will have to use public charging stations are those who have to park on the street, travelers, and those who forgot to plug in their vehicle at home. In my area, large companies are putting charging stations in their parking lots. They can automatically contact the employee to move the vehicle when it's charged. Failure to do so will revoke charging privileges.

In my area, there is an excess of electricity in the daytime because of the amount of installed solar. I suppose you could encounter problems on the grid, but we generally do not have such problems because solar generation is distributed into the places where the electricity is used.


Unfortunately, for those who commute to work during the day there usually isn't a place to charge the car to use some of that solar generated electricity. It seems crazy that California requires all new houses to have solar panels even if that electricity isn't really needed.

Some areas in Hawaii the power company won't allow solar customers to export power to the grid. The customer's solar inverter can only produce as much power as the customer is using. Electricity is so expensive in Hawaii that solar makes a lot of sense. Some neighborhoods were overloading the local grid with all the excess solar power during the day.

[Brian Elfert]

I have considered buying a used Nissan Leaf or Ford Focus electric from time to time. One reason I haven't done it is because annual registration would be a significant chunk of my annual operating expenses for an electric car. Registration is based on a percentage of MSRP plus there is a $75 electric vehicle fee. The state wants to push the electric vehicle fee to $250 per year which is more than I pay in gas taxes with my gasoline car!

[Doug Garson]

Unfortunately, for those who commute to work during the day there usually isn't a place to charge the car to use some of that solar generated electricity.
Sounds like a potential additional source of revenue for someone operating a parking lot especially ones with valet service. Add charging stations to the lot and have lot attendants move the cars around as needed to access the chargers or use extended cables to move the charger to the car. Add the cost of the charge plus service charge to the bill.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... push the electric vehicle fee to $250 per year ...

Not many of the cost comparisons here include this, but most state road maintenance is paid for via motor fuel taxes, at least in states where I have lived (1 city uses bond issues :: streets are a tank trap) - - YMMV. As EVs gain market share, either the roads suffer, or EVs pay their (fair?) share.

It will be interesting to see how this works out... based on GVWR? Mileage driven annually? Maybe shift the road fees over to tire purchases? Or just convert to 100% toll roads?

Somebody is gonna be grumpy.

[Mike Henderson]

I was part of a study in California to test various ways of charging EVs for use of the highway. My group was based on miles driven. We had a module that plugged into the car and tracked how many miles we drove in state (it used GPS). As far as I was concerned, it worked fine, but others may object to the "tracking" that's possible since they monitor usage of the vehicle with GPS.

The good part is that you were only charged for in-state miles. Another group reported mileage from the odometer but that could include out of state travel.

I guess no technique is perfect. I expect they will let people decide how they want to report their usage. In CA you have to have your vehicle smog checked every few years so the smog check could report your mileage to keep you honest. It may report your mileage as part of the smog check today, anyway.

The study did not take into account vehicle weight but that could be done. So, your charge per mile could be less for a small vehicle and more for a very heavy vehicle.

Mike

[Brian Elfert]

Not many of the cost comparisons here include this, but most state road maintenance is paid for via motor fuel taxes, at least in states where I have lived (1 city uses bond issues :: streets are a tank trap) - - YMMV. As EVs gain market share, either the roads suffer, or EVs pay their (fair?) share.


I'm not against paying my fair share for road taxes. However, $250 a year is at least $100 per year more than I pay for 12,000 miles in a 23 MPG gasoline car. An electric car would be a second vehicle for me and would probably see about 6,000 miles per year meaning I would pay over double the road tax than the average driver of a gasoline car. States want people to buy electric cars to reduce highway emissions, but it doesn't help if they tax them at a higher rate than gas cars.

One of the arguments people used to justify owning electric cars was no road taxes, but that is going away, or has already gone away.

[Brian Elfert]

I was part of a study in California to test various ways of charging EVs for use of the highway. My group was based on miles driven. We had a module that plugged into the car and tracked how many miles we drove in state (it used GPS). As far as I was concerned, it worked fine, but others may object to the "tracking" that's possible since they monitor usage of the vehicle with GPS.


There are a great many people who are dead set against GPS tracking of vehicles for road taxes. Law enforcement will certainly be asking judges to allow them to see the data to determine which drivers where in the area of crimes. People don't want to be hassled by the police just because they happened to be 1/4 mile from a shooting. Criminals will just not install the devices or otherwise disable them. Any politician who votes for GPS tracking is risking political suicide.

Odometer tracking is fraught with issues. If I pay by the mile for state roads why should I pay for miles I drove in another state? Odometer fraud would be through the roof. We'll figure out a new way to pay for roads and I can almost guarantee most drivers will hate it for one reason or another.

[Doug Garson]

In CA you have to have your vehicle smog checked every few years so the smog check could report your mileage to keep you honest. It may report your mileage as part of the smog check today, anyway.

Mike
Please tell me California doesn't require electric vehicles to be smog checked. :eek:

[Doug Garson]

As electric vehicles replace ICE vehicles it wouldn't be that hard to replace gas taxes with vehicle charging taxes. Pass legislation requiring EV manufacturers to include some form of system to track charging history in the vehicle software and require car owners to submit a copy of it when you register the vehicle each year.

[Ronald Blue]

Purchased a Toyota Avalon Hybrid tonight. Drive home was 41 miles at 40 MPG. That was cruising at 70 MPH. I'm still learning all the features it has. Toyota has proven to have the hybrid system well refined. Maybe a step towards a plug in down the road but this bridges the gap well for now.

[Warren Lake]

if you have an electric car do you carry battery cables

[Mike Henderson]

if you have an electric car do you carry battery cables

Just the cable that you use to charge your car. Not jumper cables.

Mike

[Warren Lake]

Yeah, Poor attempt to sound like Steven Wright. I joke about other electric cars but take it further I guess then they cant boost a gas car if needed? Totally different systems likely.

[Lee DeRaud]

Yeah, Poor attempt to sound like Steven Wright. I joke about other electric cars but take it further I guess then they cant boost a gas car if needed? Totally different systems likely.Most (all?) of them have a 12V battery to power auxiliary systems...not quite sure why, but there ya go.

[roger wiegand]

Most (all?) of them have a 12V battery to power auxiliary systems...not quite sure why, but there ya go.


Just to make ICE drivers comfortable?-- if your 12V battery is dead you can't start your electric car. I think, but am not sure, that it is required to power up the DC-DC voltage converter, and to power the contactor that isolates the high voltage battery when it is not in use. It also powers the 12v accessories, from window motors to windshield wipers. Lead-acid 12 v batteries seem to fail a lot in this use, attributed to not having the heavy draw of starting current. They are starting to be replaced with Li-ion batteries.

[Lee DeRaud]

I think, but am not sure, that it is required to power up the DC-DC voltage converter, and to power the contactor that isolates the high voltage battery when it is not in use.Ah, that's the first explanation I've heard that sounds at all reasonable. (I'll assume that "in use" includes "while charging".)

Clearly the main battery system has a 12V output, otherwise it couldn't (re)charge the 12V battery. I didn't realize it got that isolated when the car was shut off, given the current trend (no pun intended) in ICE cars to have some systems drawing off the battery 24/7.

[Mike Henderson]

One thing I think ALL electric vehicles should have is a 120 volt 60 Hz outlet that you could plug something into. For example, when there's a power outage, you could plug in your refrigerator or freezer.

Or if you were out somewhere and needed power you could access it. I had a flat tire one time and couldn't get the lug nuts off because the gorilla at the tire place put them on too tight. I could carry a corded impact driver for those kind of problems. I had to wait for AAA to come with an impact driver.

Mike

[Warren Lake]

I guess it wont be that simple but one guy was on the radio that said he was doing battery exchange, you stroll up and they put a fresh battery in and you leave?

[Brian Elfert]

I didn't think any electric car manufacturer was actually doing battery swaps at this time. My understanding is the Tesla Model S has battery swap capability. Tesla did a demo on stage once showing a battery swap in of their vehicles. Tesla had a battery swap station open for a year or two, but it has been closed for several years. I don't know if the Model 3 has battery swap capability or not.

[Rick Potter]

Warren, Now that you ask......YES I have a small jump starter I carry in my car. I found out the hard way several years ago about the 12V battery controlling the whole shebang. Mine went out on my '13 C-Max energy and NOTHING worked. It sat in the garage helpless and fully charged.

Luckily the windows were down so I could open the doors, which in turn gave access to the hood release, but I couldn't even get it out of park to have AA tow it. The driver suggested jump starting. I was very reluctant to try as I had no idea how you jump start a plug in without causing damage. He knew nothing about them either, and the battery is in the rear of the car, hidden away.

He did know it has a positive access point under the hood, and we easily found it covered with a very obvious red plastic cap, but the negative was not so obvious. Turned out there is a metal rod about a foot tall that is attached to the framework of the body, and that is the point at which to attach the negative cable. As we attached the cables, the car clicked on and everything worked again. That's all we did...touch the cables to the two points and it energized.

I drove it to the dealer, shut it off, and it was dead again. They installed a new battery and all was well.

Not one of Ford's better ideas, the car can notify you of lots of problems occurring, but didn't install a volt meter for the 12V, nor is there a light or indicator that warns you of a low 12V battery. I bought a small jump starter at Costco for $50 and keep it under the seat. It has a Lithium battery and I check it every few months.

Today, I needed it. My '14 C-max is dead in the garage and I assume it has a bad 12V battery, as it fired right up by just touching the contacts for a second. I think a 12V lantern battery would do it just fine. I am heading out to the dealer for a new battery today.

I know this is long winded, but wrote it to possibly inform anyone interested in real life plug in experiences.

Please note: My cars are '13 and '14 models. They are probably two generations older than the new models, and much has changed since then as the systems get more efficient and reliable.

[Kev Williams]

I could have sworn we did a multi-page thread on this exact topic not too long ago...
Yup. OP was some guy with the initials "KW". :)


its difficult to answer questions when they are formed as an opinion not based on facts.

the answer is then assumed the same and to be thrown out, instead of considered.

the answer is, though, that most people charge at night when there is a much smaller demand on the grid, and evening out that demand curve actually makes the grid more efficient and the cars themselves present opportunity for surge capacity in the home when they are connected, and if you opt in, surge grid capacity.

as an engineer in the O&g industry and a current plug in and future EV owner, i'm excited about the possibilities.

So, I'm not supposed to have an opinion, and/or add my half/cent because I've already talked about this before?

I'll just FO&D then....

[Lee DeRaud]

So, I'm not supposed to have an opinion, and/or add my half/cent because I've already talked about this before?

I'll just FO&D then....Sorry you took it that way. I was just pointing out some gratuitous dead-horse beating.

[Alex Zeller]

I don't think battery swapping is going to be a viable option. In sunny California it would work much better than in the dead of winter on a car with it's undercarriage covered in ice and frozen grime around here. Then there's mud season. Battery swapping would also need standard sized batteries. Even the good old car battery comes in far too many different sizes and terminal locations. If EVs are our future it'll be the government setting standards (like different levels of gasoline) is the only way it'll work.

[Doug Garson]

I think there is an application for battery swapping in electric scooters where the batteries are much smaller and the owner can easily do the swap. This video discusses battery swapping in both cars and scooters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-xWYScsvts

[JOEL MONGEON]

We bought our first EV in 2018. It was the only bright green Chevy Bolt in the area for quite some time. Super easy to find in a parking lot full of grey and black cars.

We love our EV. I know about the recall but am actually excited for it. I'll get a brand new battery pack with 8% more charge and a reset on the warranty.

We charge our car at home with a level 2 charger. I only have to charge maybe once every 2 weeks and it's only for about 5 hours to fill it to 90%. I'm not worried about the extra electricity cost as our house has solar already.

We now live in Ottawa Canada and this past year was our first winter with an EV. No problems at all. Range went down a little maybe 50km less but we never let the battery get bellow 1/4 charge.

We also have a 2014 Durango for towing our airstream and for picking up lumber. I cannot wait for more EV SUV/Trucks to hit the market. At that point we will sell both our Bolt and Durango and just go with 1 larger EV that can tow and haul things. Until then we are happy to kick around town in our EV.

[Alan Lightstone]

One thing I think ALL electric vehicles should have is a 120 volt 60 Hz outlet that you could plug something into. For example, when there's a power outage, you could plug in your refrigerator or freezer.

Or if you were out somewhere and needed power you could access it. I had a flat tire one time and couldn't get the lug nuts off because the gorilla at the tire place put them on too tight. I could carry a corded impact driver for those kind of problems. I had to wait for AAA to come with an impact driver.

Mike

Yes, this has always driven me crazy with my Tesla. With my previous Model S, you would be crazy to evacuate a hurricane using an electric car. With usual total traffic jams, and presumably lines at superchargers (or them not having power), it's just a non-starter - even with the ostensibly 230ish mile range.

I thought long and hard about what use my Tesla would be after a hurricane with no power. Finally the lightbulb went off (terrible pun). A Tesla is the World's best iPhone charger after a hurricane. That's it.

Now on the other hand, my new Tesla Model S Plaid with 348 miles of range, it becomes much more reasonable to use for an evacuation in a power failure.

The 100kWh battery on the car could be extremely valuable if you could use it in a power failure. A company was thinking about making an adapter to make that work, but the rumor I heard was that Tesla nixed it, and wouldn't build their own. Boy that would be useful in California with all the power failures with brush fires. Oh well...

[Bill Dufour]

I wish Tesla made an electric lawn mower with self driving. They would clean up!
Bill D.

Link to John Deere electric tractor, with cord.
https://www.electrive.com/2018/12/12/video-john-deere-premiers-electric-tractor-in-action/

[Warren Lake]

if you are out somewhere run out of juice can a tow truck give you a boost or transfer enough that you can get home or close by to charge?

[Mike Henderson]

if you are out somewhere run out of juice can a tow truck give you a boost or transfer enough that you can get home or close by to charge?

I never heard of that. I suppose he'd have to tow you. I think the vehicle gives you a lot of warning that the battery is getting low, however.

Mike

[Jim Becker]

if you are out somewhere run out of juice can a tow truck give you a boost or transfer enough that you can get home or close by to charge?

It would be doubtful that any tow truck would have a higher capacity 120v or 240v power source to charge an EV, at least at this point and it would be expensive to hold a truck in one place long enough do do what you suggest. So most likely, a tow will be required.

Folks contemplating EVs need to consider where they live, where they drive and what their expectations will be to accomplish that. Paying attention to the "meter" will be part of that, just as knowing what's in the fuel tank is for ICE vehicles...especially with what I mentioned in the first paragraph. There are going to be a lot of folks who, for the time being, will be better served by a plug-in hybrid or non-plug-in hybrid for mixed use and when they live in areas that present difficult charging situations. There is no one best electrified vehicle and it will be some time before true EVs are ubiquitous.

[Alan Lightstone]

I never heard of that. I suppose he'd have to tow you. I think the vehicle gives you a lot of warning that the battery is getting low, however.

Mike

As far as I know, you'd have to be towed. It's pretty funny what the car does as you get really low on charge. It starts giving you less and less subtle warnings, turns off the A/C, reduces maximum speed, etc... I've never gotten it so low that even more turns off, but it might be fun to try. As long as you do it near a charging location. People have driven Teslas to zero.

[roger wiegand]

if you are out somewhere run out of juice can a tow truck give you a boost or transfer enough that you can get home or close by to charge?

This is starting to be a thing in EV intensive areas. AAA apparently has vans with portable charging equipment and at least one startup has paired with a big towing company to outfit its trucks. Charging would presumably be done from a big battery on the tow truck, taking advantage of the very fast charge rates possible with a DC-DC charger. 10 minutes is plenty to add 40-50 miles of range to a depleted car. An onboard generator could recharge the rescue vehicle while it drives around, assuming it is an ICE vehicle. Otherwise it would need to return to base to be re-charged periodically.

You can apparently also charge some/many/all(?) EVs by towing them in gear with their wheels on the ground. No idea how efficient that might be.

[Lee DeRaud]

You can apparently also charge some/many/all(?) EVs by towing them in gear with their wheels on the ground. No idea how efficient that might be.Well, 100% efficiency (not gonna happen) would mean a 50-mile tow for 50 miles of charge. Wonder how AAA feels about that?

"Maybe, in retrospect, asking for a flatbed tow was not the optimal approach." :)

[Bill Dufour]

Ford ev pickup is rumored to have an optional generator in a toolbox like shell in the bed.
When the Nazi Submarine on display in Chicago was captured the batteries were dead. The US navy towed it long enough to run the motors backward as generators to get something in the batteries.
Bill D

[Alan Lightstone]

This is starting to be a thing in EV intensive areas. AAA apparently has vans with portable charging equipment and at least one startup has paired with a big towing company to outfit its trucks. Charging would presumably be done from a big battery on the tow truck, taking advantage of the very fast charge rates possible with a DC-DC charger. 10 minutes is plenty to add 40-50 miles of range to a depleted car. An onboard generator could recharge the rescue vehicle while it drives around, assuming it is an ICE vehicle. Otherwise it would need to return to base to be re-charged periodically.

You can apparently also charge some/many/all(?) EVs by towing them in gear with their wheels on the ground. No idea how efficient that might be.

Interesting. It would take a very large battery on the truck. A generator, if it produces high enough voltage and current could, I suppose do that. To put this in perspective, hooking up a Tesla to 115V at 15 amps only adds 3 miles of charge PER HOUR.

You could, I suppose, add some charge by regenerative braking when being towed by lightly pressing on the brake pedal while the car is being towed. Of course, if you push too hard, you are activating the brakes, which really is a pretty bad idea, so I wouldn't try that approach, at least with a Tesla.

[Alex Zeller]

I would expect future tow trucks would have a large generator that could put enough of a charge in a battery for the car to get to a charger. There's no reason why the transmission couldn't have a PTO coming off of it going to a generator that would put out the same voltage and 100 amps (or more). After all the engine in a modern tow truck is hundreds of horse power. If it only takes a half hour it's still better than loading the car, chaining it down, driving to the location of a charging station, and unloading it (I assume that while driving to the charger the tow truck would also be charging it so the car could move itself into position to charge).

But that's an ICE truck. If the future is batteries then what? A truck could put 50 miles of charge into an EV but after doing so it's battery it's battery now has 50 miles (or more since the tow truck isn't going to go as far on a charge) less in it. So the tow truck will need to also get charged back up. That's fine if people aren't dropping like flies but if it's busy then what?

[Doug Garson]

It wouldn't be that hard to build an electric tow truck with two or three times the battery capacity of an electric pickup so the tow truck could charge a dead EV with enough charge to drive to a charging station and still have the majority of its battery capacity left.

[Tyler Bancroft]

Our next car will be an EV. The F-150 Lightning is appealing – aside from the ability to haul tons of lumber and gardening supplies, the ability to use it as a backup electricity source has some serious value, given that it's dangerously hot or cold for at least six months of the year here and we're on a rather unreliable grid. For us, long-distance driving only happens a few times per year, and that's not often enough to justify staying on an ICE platform.

All of that is secondary to the fact that ICE vehicles will be hard to buy and fuel in about a decade, so debate about whether people will switch to EVs is not a "yes or no", it's a matter of how much inconvenience people will put up with and for how long before they bite the bullet and go electric.

[Bill Dufour]

I do not think that ford pickup can carry tons of stuff unless it is high density. Just not enough to put it. A station wagon has a bigger cargo area.
Bill D

[Alan Lightstone]

Interesting. It would take a very large battery on the truck. A generator, if it produces high enough voltage and current could, I suppose do that. To put this in perspective, hooking up a Tesla to 115V at 15 amps only adds 3 miles of charge PER HOUR.

You could, I suppose, add some charge by regenerative braking when being towed by lightly pressing on the brake pedal while the car is being towed. Of course, if you push too hard, you are activating the brakes, which really is a pretty bad idea, so I wouldn't try that approach, at least with a Tesla.

Actually, read a bunch of articles on this. Supposedly no electric cars should be towed with wheels on the ground. There is a startup towing company in LA and SF which can provide charging, but they are talking about very slow rates - count on 1 hr charging time. Hard to make a successful business model with that low efficiency.

AAA in Oregon tried a compressed hydrogen powered generator to give you 10 miles of charge max in 15 min. They abandoned the program in 2019.

[JOEL MONGEON]

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1132334_ford-f-150-lightning-home-backup-power-what-tesla-powerwall

The upcoming Ford F 150 lightning will be able to be used as a house battery if you get the upgraded model. Really cool idea! I had 2 Powerwalls in my last house and loved them but I think this is an even better solution. Too bad the range is so small on the F150.

[Tyler Bancroft]

I do not think that ford pickup can carry tons of stuff unless it is high density. Just not enough to put it. A station wagon has a bigger cargo area.
Bill D

14 cubic foot trunk in the front (I refuse to use the word "frunk"), back seat in the crew cab, and a 5.5 foot bed. That's a lot of space. A regular 8-foot F-150 has ~77 cubic feet of bed space. A 5.5-foot version has ~53. Add in the ~14 from the trunk in the front and you're up to 67, without counting the storage space in the cab. If all you're hauling is lumber and sheet goods, it's not perfect, but if you frequently move other stuff (like a 1500 pound load of soil and plants), it's just fine.

[Brian Elfert]

I doubt there will be any issues getting fuel for any ICE vehicle in a decade from now unless government bans the sale of petroleum fuels. Congress is unlikely to do so as a whole lot of them would be looking for a new job after the next election. A great many businesses, farms especially, use vintage equipment they can't afford to replace. A lot of businesses would go under if they had to replace all of their ICE equipment with electric. Let's say you have a bunch of old stuff that is worth $100,000. To replace all of that equipment with electric could easily reach into the millions. A business with a few million in revenue is unlikely to be able to afford that equipment even if they can finance or lease it.

Many of the cars bought today will still be in use in 10 years. Perhaps 20 years from now finding petroleum fuels might be an issue, but even then I doubt it will be hard to find. There might be fewer gas stations by then.

[Brian Elfert]

I worked at a fairgrounds in the 1990s that had passenger shuttles powered by CNG (compressed natural gas). The local natural gas utilities did this as a promotion. They paid for the gas, provided the gas compressor machine, and paid to convert the vehicles to CNG.

Anyhow, the fuel gauges were not super accurate so the fairgrounds put a cylinder of CNG in one of the service vehicles in case a vehicle ran out of CNG. Luckily, no vehicle ran out of CNG in the ten years or so the vehicles operated. Not much different than a service vehicle with a large generator or battery to give an electric vehicle enough charge to get to the nearest charger.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Recently met an elderly guy (I am 70, he was upper 80's) riding an electric bike. He was going by my house, had just completed a long up hill and was just about to start another and I said hi as he stopped at the stop sign in front of my property. Asked him a few questions about it and he let me take it for a block and back. It had all kinds of get up and go, didn't have to peddle and went about 30mph. It was made in Texas from parts that came from all over the world, he said it retailed for $3,200. He had it for a few months now. He said it reminded him of the Cushman motor scooter he had back in the 1950's. He claimed it went about 40 miles before the thing "pooped out" Said the last five miles it would barely move along. I asked where he lived and when he said the town, it was 25 miles away. I asked if he was afraid he would run out of charge and he said yes. So I followed him on my motor cycle until he made it home. (slowest trip the Harley ever took.) But I was impressed at the way it climbed the hill from my house and the next two as well. On the level, he was doing a little over 30 for most of the 25 miles. It started slowing up bad about a 1/2 mile his home. That last half mile was mostly him peddling that 85 pound bike. I was imprsesed.

[Bruce Volden]

I doubt there will be any issues getting fuel for any ICE vehicle in a decade from now unless government bans the sale of petroleum fuels. Congress is unlikely to do so as a whole lot of them would be looking for a new job after the next election. A great many businesses, farms especially, use vintage equipment they can't afford to replace. A lot of businesses would go under if they had to replace all of their ICE equipment with electric. Let's say you have a bunch of old stuff that is worth $100,000. To replace all of that equipment with electric could easily reach into the millions. A business with a few million in revenue is unlikely to be able to afford that equipment even if they can finance or lease it.

Many of the cars bought today will still be in use in 10 years. Perhaps 20 years from now finding petroleum fuels might be an issue, but even then I doubt it will be hard to find. There might be fewer gas stations by then.

That is another problem. The talk around here pertains to the new tractors, combines, choppers....containing proprietary circuitry (boards and other electronics).
When these new machines go down the farmers CANNOT fix them because of the newfangled electronics.
AND they are not standardized ie: Case is different than John Deere etc. Maybe more subsidizing in the future???

Bruce

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

This afternoon, I heard a radio show about the changes coming to farming due to electric vehicles. The guy claimed the dependence of internal combustion will disappear, but tractors and machinery will be drastically different. Crops will be engineered to take less energy/mechanization to grow them. (already been happening)

[Doug Garson]

I doubt there will be any issues getting fuel for any ICE vehicle in a decade from now unless government bans the sale of petroleum fuels. Congress is unlikely to do so as a whole lot of them would be looking for a new job after the next election. A great many businesses, farms especially, use vintage equipment they can't afford to replace. A lot of businesses would go under if they had to replace all of their ICE equipment with electric. Let's say you have a bunch of old stuff that is worth $100,000. To replace all of that equipment with electric could easily reach into the millions. A business with a few million in revenue is unlikely to be able to afford that equipment even if they can finance or lease it.

Many of the cars bought today will still be in use in 10 years. Perhaps 20 years from now finding petroleum fuels might be an issue, but even then I doubt it will be hard to find. There might be fewer gas stations by then.
Yes, petroleum fuels will get harder to find 20 or 30 years from now but the real motivation to retire old vehicles including farm vehicles will be operating costs. Multiple studies have shown that compared to a similar ICE vehicle, many EVs have lower cost of ownership over five or more years despite the fact that the EV is several thousand dollars more expensive to buy. The payback will be longer for older existing equipment compared to new equipment but as the older equipment ages and parts wear out and are harder and harder to find eventually buying a new EV will be more cost effective than continuing to maintain and buy fuel for an old ICE vehicle.

[Larry Frank]

I have given though to an electric car. However, the thought of getting stuck on the Interstate during a snow storm or cold scares me. With the cold, battery capability goes down and the ability to stay warm goes way down.

[Doug Garson]

I have given though to an electric car. However, the thought of getting stuck on the Interstate during a snow storm or cold scares me. With the cold, battery capability goes down and the ability to stay warm goes way down.
Here's a link to an article that debunks the myth that EVs don't perform in the cold.

https://www.saskpower.com/about-us/our-company/blog/2021/myth-electric-vehicles-cant-handle-our-cold-saskatchewan-winters

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

That article does nothing to address what Larry Frank is concerned about. Here in Central PA, motorists frequently get caught on interstates for 12 or 24 hours. An internal combustion engine can idle for a fair amount of time, and when only run for a few minutes every 20 to 30 minutes, a full tank can last a day to keep a snow bound family warm. Despite coats and blankets and candles in an emergency kit, how long can an EV keep the occupants warm in such a life or death situation. Perhaps 5 years ago, we had a couple hundred motorists stuck in a ten mile stretch of interstate 78. Snow plows could not get through and there were not enough snow vehicles to get them out. As the blizzard ended, the authorities brought out prisoners to shovel the cars out, carry emergency food/haul gasoline, etc to those who were stuck. Your article does absolutely nothing to address that, other than affirm that battery charge duration goes down faster. I have been stuck for an hour in a snow drift in a 4 wdr truck with 17 inch tires. The 2 mile walk back home in 40 mph wind driven snow would have been horribly bad. But had I been on the interstate 6 miles from an exit, it would have been life threatening to try to walk it. I shoveled enough to get the truck free of the drift, so the walk became moot. Explain to me how the EV handles the wheels slipping as it tries to pull through the snow. Do the miles the tires slip count toward the range?

[Larry Frank]

According to the article, the range decreases 50-60%.

[roger wiegand]

Years ago I got stuck in a huge pile-up (one of dozens, as it turned out) on I-80 in western PA during a massive ice storm. Of the hundred or so cars involved in my particular focus at least six ran out of gas before we could go anywhere and that was only an ~eight hour delay

Winter safety is not a function of the fuel you choose-- always be prepared to last out a day or two in an unheated vehicle with appropriate clothing, blankets, or a sleeping bag as well as a source of water.

Note also that you can, theoretically, run the seat heaters (adequate to keep you from freezing) for hundreds of hours on a full charge. Your ICE vehicle won't do that. In a vehicle like Tesla that uses a heat pump rather than resistance heating you can maintain cabin temperature in sub-freezing weather while standing still for a couple of days. Just as in an ICE vehicle, how long you can go depends on how much fuel you have in the tank. Don't depend on the gauge being at "F" when disaster strikes!

[Ronald Blue]

There is no question Electric Vehicles are going to change many things. There are also a great many details to be worked out. It's going to take years for some of these things to happen and because of that the ICE won't be going away for many years. Just because you can build a car that travels 300 miles on a charge doesn't mean you can build a tractor that will run 10 or 12 hours at 80% load. Doing chores is one thing but doing field tillage work is another. I know Deere and Case are working on these things. Case is building and selling a battery powered backhoe. I think the first one went to a utility in upstate New York.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

How many "watt hours " a month to charge it? That is great for those having a garage, but going out in a cold snow after getting home to fiddle with a plug at night and again in the morning aint happening any time soon. While sitting to a hot breakfast, We push a button on the phone and start the vehicles we are going to use. Heck, farmers even have automated milking machines that hook up to cows' udders and milk them three times a day. You would think there would be an automatic plug in machine for the car.

[Jim Becker]

The bottom line in my mind is that if one is going to go the electrification route, they have to consider their situation when choosing between a full EV and a hybrid. So folks who have concerns about things like being stranded in a blizzard will likely be better served by a hybrid vehicle whereas those of us who are considering something for general, local transportation will likely be well served by a full EV. It's good to have choices. :)

[Steve Demuth]

There are a great many people who are dead set against GPS tracking of vehicles for road taxes. Law enforcement will certainly be asking judges to allow them to see the data to determine which drivers where in the area of crimes. People don't want to be hassled by the police just because they happened to be 1/4 mile from a shooting. Criminals will just not install the devices or otherwise disable them. Any politician who votes for GPS tracking is risking political suicide.

Odometer tracking is fraught with issues. If I pay by the mile for state roads why should I pay for miles I drove in another state? Odometer fraud would be through the roof. We'll figure out a new way to pay for roads and I can almost guarantee most drivers will hate it for one reason or another.

And almost all of those people have a smart phone in their pocket or purse while driving, so they are already being tracked, at least to the granularity of the cellular system, and probably via GPS location logging as well. People are weird that way.

I agree wholeheartedly with you summary though - there will be a way, and people will hate it. Same way they piss and moan about the gas tax or registration fees. Last car I bought my wife (a 2019 Chevy Volt) cost us about 28,000. So, we're paying the State of Iowa $65.00 extra on our registration for the cost of the roads to run that on. But say it was $200 - over a decade of use, we'd pay about 7% of what the car cost in road use fees. Those roads are a critical component of the car - probably the most critical after the motor, drive train and steering wheel, and that 7% looks a bargain to me. The actual 2.5% we are paying is a dead steal.

[Steve Demuth]

For those that own electric cars a few questions?? Do you like your choice as opposed to having a gas operated one? Would you do it again? Did you have to make changes to your insurance plans, both vehicle and home? If so what? Being there is a higher risk with battery fires from charging and now you had to add a charging port in your house plan somewhere is that a concern for you and did it effect your insurance? Are the batteries in the car warrentied? If so how long? Have you had to replace any yet and if so how much and were you able to get rid of old? Thanks. Maybe we can get a discussion going on electric cars and the pros and cons.....

We've got a plug-in hybrid, 2019 Chevrolet Volt. It does about 85% of its miles as an electric vehicle right now. During Covid restrictions, it was nearly 100% - my wife didn't fill the gas tank but once after we bought the car in October of 2019, through the end of 2020. The batteries are covered by a generous 100,000 mile warranty. I don't sweat the fire risk. EV's are not more likely to burn in an accident than gasoline vehicles (although the resulting fire might be a challenge for the fire department - they are very difficult to extinguish). Insurance was not different than for an ICE car. We do pay a registration surcharge to compensate for the road use (gasoline) tax we're not paying at the pump. It's small, and an insignificant part of the overall cost of transportation.

We charge the Volt exclusively at home, and added additional solar panels to our existing setup to generate the required kwH. That added about $3000-4000 to the $28,000 cost of the car. But fuel is now free ;-).

I love the performance. Electric cars have enormous torque for their size at ready command. Hit the accelerator, and the car accelerates smoothly, strongly and immediately.

The drawbacks I see to electric: in our climate, where winter temperatures are consistently below freezing from mid-November through March, and sub-zero Fahrenheit is not uncommon, they are very difficult to heat adequately. Heating a car cabin while zipping down the road at 55mph at 10o F sucks kwh like nobodies business. Keeping the car adequately warm for my 100lb, low-temperature wife is almost impossible, and drains the range quickly if you try. Traction / control is also inferior, due to the weight of the batteries being distributed to the rear of the front wheel-drive vehicle. I imagine it would be worse in a full electric with a much bigger and heavier battery. Finally, it's worth noting that in these climates, the car uses power even when not in use, to keep the battery adequately warmed. If I lived in the Southern half of the US, I wouldn't sweat any of these. Here in Iowa / Minnesota, they are a small, but real drawback.

[Jim Becker]

Steve, I really liked the design that GM used with the Volt for a hybrid vehicle...electric but with onboard charging via the small engine. I don't really understand why more manufacturers didn't go that way and Volt is now off the market.

[Brian Elfert]

And almost all of those people have a smart phone in their pocket or purse while driving, so they are already being tracked, at least to the granularity of the cellular system, and probably via GPS location logging as well. People are weird that way.

I agree wholeheartedly with you summary though - there will be a way, and people will hate it. Same way they piss and moan about the gas tax or registration fees. Last car I bought my wife (a 2019 Chevy Volt) cost us about 28,000. So, we're paying the State of Iowa $65.00 extra on our registration for the cost of the roads to run that on. But say it was $200 - over a decade of use, we'd pay about 7% of what the car cost in road use fees. Those roads are a critical component of the car - probably the most critical after the motor, drive train and steering wheel, and that 7% looks a bargain to me. The actual 2.5% we are paying is a dead steal.

Yes, your phone might be tracked, but I think people are worried about GPS data being sent straight to state government. You know that law enforcement is going to go to court to get that data to see who was in the area of a crime. Someone living in a high crime area might not want to be hassled by law enforcement regularly, especially if they happen to drive a common model of car.

My issue with high electric car surcharges is the surcharge is more than I would pay in fuel taxes with a 25 MPG gas vehicle. I think road taxes need to go up, but they need to go up for everyone, not just electric car owners.

[Jim Becker]

Brian, I've seen some talk here and there about changing from using fuel sales to generate road revenue to other methods not tied to how the vehicle is powered. Flat fee vs actual usage is going to be an interesting conundrum to solve...

[Steve Demuth]

Steve, I really liked the design that GM used with the Volt for a hybrid vehicle...electric but with onboard charging via the small engine. I don't really understand why more manufacturers didn't go that way and Volt is now off the market.

I agree. Great transitional vehicle technology, and a good, solid sedan overall. I sought out a new 2019 Volt when I realized they were ending production. I figure it'll last us at minimum a decade, and by then, electrics will have many more of the current challenges worked out. During that decade, we'll be powering 80% of our transportation from our own solar, with no loss in flexibility.

[Alex Zeller]

The government just needs to up the tax on tires and dump the tax on gas. It would be better for the environment too. Suddenly people would be paying attention to how long tires last vs ones that need replacing in a short amount of miles.

[Dan Friedrichs]

How many "watt hours " a month to charge it? That is great for those having a garage, but going out in a cold snow after getting home to fiddle with a plug at night and again in the morning aint happening any time soon. While sitting to a hot breakfast, We push a button on the phone and start the vehicles we are going to use. Heck, farmers even have automated milking machines that hook up to cows' udders and milk them three times a day. You would think there would be an automatic plug in machine for the car.

You'd think there would be an automatic gas nozzle, too, no?

[roger wiegand]

The government just needs to up the tax on tires and dump the tax on gas. It would be better for the environment too. Suddenly people would be paying attention to how long tires last vs ones that need replacing in a short amount of miles.

Do higher grip (shorter lifetime) summer tires wear the road more than long-lived all-seasons? I'd agree that cost of responsible disposal should be built into tire prices, but that's a different question.

Seems to me that having every owner pay for road use based on actual miles driven, independent of power source, would be the most fair route to take. And I'd be all in favor of that fee being high enough to maintain the roads at a decent standard. My cost, in bent rims and more serious damage to the undercarriage of my car, has dwarfed what I've paid in road taxes over the years.

The arguments that there are some use cases where electrics aren't the best solution and therefore no one should convert just don't hold water. Consumers will vote with their feet, no matter what, taking their own personal circumstances and uses as a guide. I personally think we've reached the tipping point where the advantages of electric vehicles will make them the best choice for a significant majority of new car buyers within the decade. I don't own one yet, but having just gone out and done a round of test drives I'm absolutely convinced that my next car will be an electric-- because it is flat out a better vehicle than any ICE car I can afford. Range and charging availability, for me, in my part of the country, and for the way I use a car, has reached the point of being a non-issue. Given their abundance on the roads here I'm not alone in that. The vehicle I'm looking at also has the highest percentage of "made in USA" content of any car currently sold, and I feel good about that as well.

At some point in the past the Detroit Electric was about the hottest selling car in the US-- one of the primary arguments in its favor was that fuel was often hard to find, but almost everyone who could afford a car had electricity right at home where they could power it up. In another example of consumers voting with their feet and the market responding, within a decade fuel was ubiquitous and gas cars owned the market. I'm thinking in 10-15 yers everyone will wonder what the fuss was about with the conversion back to electrics.

[Doug Garson]

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this? Some people push back against electric vehicles because of concerns about how they will perform in extreme weather conditions compared to ICE vehicles that contribute to the cause of increasing frequency and severity of extreme weather conditions?

[Malcolm McLeod]

You'd think there would be an automatic gas nozzle, too, no?

I'm holding out for 'in-flight' refueling. Just dock with the fuel truck at 75mph, RFID to pay, and keep zippin' along. Might be tough to check the oil, but windshield cleaning too!

Surely there's no way for this to go wrong.:confused:

[Rick Potter]

I cannot edit my post (#2), so I would like to add that my '13 C-Max plug in shows a continuous log of electric Vs gasoline miles driven. It comes on after you shut off the car, and I had forgotten it was there.

As of today, the car has 35,090 total miles, with 28,975 being electric (532 [1.8%] from regeneration), and the rest (6115) running on gasoline. Mostly around town, but a few 600 mile, and one 2500 mile trip...all gasoline.

This gives a pretty accurate report of our real life experience. Again, yours may vary.

My '14 model of the same car does not have this feature. It has 40,885 miles on it. Yes, these are low mileage numbers, we also have a diesel pickup and an old minivan, which we use when needed.

As I said, my '14 model does not have this log. Somewhere between models they started using a new (MPG-E) method of figuring, and apparently dropped the feature.

[Bill Dufour]

In New Zealand Diesel vehicles get two license fees. A yearly plate fee and a mile tax. You have to buy mileage tickets by 5,000? mile increments. Buy more as needed. They can check you odometer at any time. If you run over it is big fine. Not for gas cars. It about doubles the annual fee for normal household use. It was designed when only commercial trucks had diesel engines. Very few diesel cars get sold in NZ because of this tax.
Bill D

[Jim Becker]

D
Seems to me that having every owner pay for road use based on actual miles driven, independent of power source, would be the most fair route to take.

I also believe that would be the fairest way "in most cases". There would be some challenges, however, including whether self-reporting or electronic tracking would be used.

[Mike Henderson]

I also believe that would be the fairest way "in most cases". There would be some challenges, however, including whether self-reporting or electronic tracking would be used.

In addition to simple miles driven, the weight of the vehicle needs to be taken into account because a heavier vehicle puts more stress on the road. With a gas tax, that is indirectly taken into account because a heavier vehicle generally uses more fuel per mile.

Also, a state should only collect for miles driven in their state. That can be done if a tracking device is used. Today, of course, people who live on a state border generally purchase fuel in the cheapest state.

Reporting miles driven is not a problem if the state has smog inspections every couple of years. Mileage is reported in CA at every smog test. Even if they don't have inspections of some kind, when they go to sell the vehicle, the mileage will be reported and the original owner will have to "even up" for the miles not reported - and maybe pay a penalty.

Mike

[Edward Weber]

I also believe that would be the fairest way "in most cases". There would be some challenges, however, including whether self-reporting or electronic tracking would be used.
Everyone is already tracked by the surgically implanted chip. oops I meant cell phone.
Apparently you're not supposed to leave the house without it.

[Steve Demuth]

Yes, your phone might be tracked, but I think people are worried about GPS data being sent straight to state government. You know that law enforcement is going to go to court to get that data to see who was in the area of a crime. Someone living in a high crime area might not want to be hassled by law enforcement regularly, especially if they happen to drive a common model of car.

My issue with high electric car surcharges is the surcharge is more than I would pay in fuel taxes with a 25 MPG gas vehicle. I think road taxes need to go up, but they need to go up for everyone, not just electric car owners.

I get the point, but I think the privacy train for use of public roads has already left the station. There are cell phone records (which can be subpoenaed), and most people would be shocked if they knew how often their travels are documented by iicense plate readers along roads and streets. That data doesn't even require a subpoena to get, as there is no legal expectation of privacy regarding your presence on a public roadway.

And frankly, if states wanted, they could easily require devices that record mileage in-state without automatically reporting anything other than monthly totals on cars. These would be very easy to build into a modern car.

[Jim Becker]

Everyone is already tracked by the surgically implanted chip. oops I meant cell phone.
Apparently you're not supposed to leave the house without it.
And I don't :) If I'm awake, it's on my person in a belt holster. And I'm fine with that.

[Tyler Bancroft]

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this? Some people push back against electric vehicles because of concerns about how they will perform in extreme weather conditions compared to ICE vehicles that contribute to the cause of increasing frequency and severity of extreme weather conditions?

Trust me, you're not the only one.

[Lee DeRaud]

Reporting miles driven is not a problem if the state has smog inspections every couple of years. Mileage is reported in CA at every smog test.Aside from the whole "does not apply to electric cars" thing, new cars here don't get smog-tested for the first 8 years* unless they're resold. E.g. my 2016MY car won't get tested until it's up for registration renewal in 2024. That's a huge hole in the reporting/fee-collection process.

(*I didn't realize this until last month, as my current car is the first new car I'd bought since the rules changed. I expected to see the "smog test required" stamp this year at renewal time, didn't happen. Then it dawned on me that this car had never had a smog test, that's when I looked it up.)

[Rod Sheridan]

Not any different than me having to plug in the jacket water heater on my vehicle when I get home, or unplugging it when I use the vehicle….Rod

[Doug Garson]

If you want to charge by miles driven, why not just require that you report your mileage each year when you renew the vehicle license plates? Yes some people will cheat but if you make the penalty severe enough, say take away the plates for six month for a first offence, twelve for a second, I wonder how many will risk it? Enforcement could include odometer checks whenever a vehicle is stopped for a traffic infraction, mandatory reporting of odometer readings by all licensed garages or whenever a title is transferred, spot checks when vehicle license plates are renewed etc.

I'm puzzled why the concern about paying for miles travelled out of state comes up so often. Do they scowl at out of state licensed cars that aren't helping to pay for road maintenance in their state?

[Doug Garson]

Not any different than me having to plug in the jacket water heater on my vehicle when I get home, or unplugging it when I use the vehicle….Rod
Or trying to thaw out a frozen gas line or start a diesel you forgot to plug in at twenty below.

[Ronald Blue]

The vast majority of commercial vehicles at least those using eLogs already record mileage for the apportioned plates based on GPS tracking of location. I used to have to show 5 entries on a paper record for less than a 100 miles driven because I would be in 3 states.

[Brian Elfert]

I'm puzzled why the concern about paying for miles travelled out of state comes up so often. Do they scowl at out of state licensed cars that aren't helping to pay for road maintenance in their state?

Right now, out of state cars often buy fuel when in another state so it mostly evens out. Commercial vehicles have to pay fuel tax for each mile they drive in a state regardless if they bought fuel there or not.

I have a motorhome that does less than 10% of its miles in the the state of Minnesota. What happens if Minnesota becomes the first state to the USA to tax miles instead of fuel and the other states still tax fuel? I would end up paying road taxes twice.

[Scott Clausen]

I think the viability of electric cars are soon to meet their real test. As numbers are increasing their batteries will soon be reaching their maximum five year life span in ever increasing numbers. If the cost of a battery replacement is a large financial hit and causes consumers to sell or dump the cars prior to this unsubsidized hit then the trade in amounts will reflect that hit. I think consumers will have a day of reckoning. Many can deal with a subsidized purchase and a lower cost to operate but if battery replacement is a $10,000.00 pay it now cost it will leave many feeling screwed. Many may still be paying for the initial purchase, asking can I finance the batteries? Me I like to drive a car 10 years or until is no longer road worthy.

[Doug Garson]

I think the viability of electric cars are soon to meet their real test. As numbers are increasing their batteries will soon be reaching their maximum five year life span in ever increasing numbers. If the cost of a battery replacement is a large financial hit and causes consumers to sell or dump the cars prior to this unsubsidized hit then the trade in amounts will reflect that hit. I think consumers will have a day of reckoning. Many can deal with a subsidized purchase and a lower cost to operate but if battery replacement is a $10,000.00 pay it now cost it will leave many feeling screwed. Many may still be paying for the initial purchase, asking can I finance the batteries? Me I like to drive a car 10 years or until is no longer road worthy.

Maybe true but the predicted battery life is 10 to 20 years not 5 years and the average cost to replace is $5500 not $10000. The average gasoline engine car lasts about 12 years.

[Mike Kees]

I agree with Scott ,in that the battery life /replacement cost and or ability to replace will be the one thing that makes or breaks EV sales long term. I also wonder where is all the additional power going to come from and how much will our electric bills increase when we all end up driving electric vehicles ? The technology is fascinating and with out a doubt will continue to change/improve as time goes on.

[Peter Mich]

Not sure that our situation is generalizable, but we are installing solar panels to reduce our reliance on the existing grid and we’ve added capacity to our solar installation to accommodate our plans to purchase an EV in the near future. Maybe more homes and neighborhoods in the future will take advantage of solar power. Fingers crossed.

[Brian Elfert]

Maybe true but the predicted battery life is 10 to 20 years not 5 years and the average cost to replace is $5500 not $10000. The average gasoline engine car lasts about 12 years.

What kills cars in Minnesota is rust if you drive the vehicle in the winter. If you drive 12,000 miles per year it is likely your car will have rust issues before the drivetrain fails. My parents had a 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan that had to be scrapped due to rust at only 140,000 miles.

The painted parts of car bodies are definitely lasting longer, but they still rust eventually. My brother has a 2011 Honda Odyssey that is just starting to show some rust and he drives it a lot. Electric vehicles might not make to 15 years in Minnesota if they are still made of steel like today's cars.

[Doug Garson]

What kills cars in Minnesota is rust if you drive the vehicle in the winter. If you drive 12,000 miles per year it is likely your car will have rust issues before the drivetrain fails. My parents had a 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan that had to be scrapped due to rust at only 140,000 miles.

The painted parts of car bodies are definitely lasting longer, but they still rust eventually. My brother has a 2011 Honda Odyssey that is just starting to show some rust and he drives it a lot. Electric vehicles might not make to 15 years in Minnesota if they are still made of steel like today's cars.
I grew up in Ontario and it was like you describe there back in the 70s and 80s but I thought today's cars were much better. Out here in the Vancouver area, cars rusting is a much smaller issue partly because a lot less road salt is used due to the milder climate.

[Warren Lake]

if you want cars to last then rust proof them. Ive done it myself for years as rust proofers are set up well but cant take the time to do it well and skimp on materials. When I got new tires on my current small car main driver they said they had never seen one in such good shape.

[Warren Lake]

im stuck on old cars and staying there. Ive said when they get better for retrofit of old stuff then ill pay more attention. Looked at you tubes of all different electrics, EV in California and even manufacturers who are bring back old body styles ( a thing ive said for years) but doing it in electric. EV is set up so well he has solar, has it down and is charging all the cars there off what he collects all be it in the right place to collect. They make it better and simpler to the point you can buy a kit that is designed to fit your motor mounts and mate to the transmission you have.

[Mike Henderson]

im stuck on old cars and staying there. Ive said when they get better for retrofit of old stuff then ill pay more attention. Looked at you tubes of all different electrics, EV in California and even manufacturers who are bring back old body styles ( a thing ive said for years) but doing it in electric. EV is set up so well he has solar, has it down and is charging all the cars there off what he collects all be it in the right place to collect. They make it better and simpler to the point you can buy a kit that is designed to fit your motor mounts and mate to the transmission you have.

Chevrolet announced an electric retrofit kit some time back (https://www.reliable-chevrolet.com/blog/2020/december/7/chevy-to-sell-ev-retrofit-kits-in-2021.htm). But there are a number of issues with converting a vehicle to electric.

1. Where to store the batteries? And can the vehicle suspension take the weight? And how will it handle with the weight balance?
2. Convert your heater and A/C to electric. Today, the heater uses hot water taken from the engine and the A/C is driven by the engine.
3. Convert power steering to electric.
4. Anything that takes power or vacuum, or anything else, from the engine has to be converted, such as power brakes.
5. A bunch of electronics has to be added and a display for monitoring and control of the electric systems (you need to know how much charge is in your batteries).

Would the transmission be left in the vehicle, or removed? It's generally not needed in an electric vehicle.

Cars are designed as systems - you can't just change one part without affecting other parts.

Mike

[Doug Garson]

I would think that the conversion kit would be a small niche market, surprised GM would be bothered marketing it.

[Warren Lake]

yeah been around cars for 50 years have friends that restore them to ones that work on racing cars. EV has worked some of that out and it will only get better and more and more info I saw all kinds of conversions and it wasnt even even all recent. 50 year old pick ups etc. I like the 400 small block and the 411 rear, I like the sound as well.

Electric with more power, figure out what rear ratio and a muncie 4 speed, no need for a Tremec six speed. Sure that would be amazing. Ill let them keep working on it for now. Like water base it had a learning curve,

[Jim Becker]

There are quite a few folks who do conversions out there, many using salvage Tesla batteries and motors in conjunction with some software folks who know how to rig things to get it all to work. I watched a video on the 'Tube the other day of one such project. It actually seems to be becoming "a thing", spawning some special shows and events that focus on conversion vehicles.

[Mike Henderson]

There's no doubt that you can convert a vehicle to electric. But for an everyday usable vehicle the question is whether it would be cheaper to just purchase a standard electric vehicle. A converted vehicle will have very little resale value - where would the buyer get it serviced or even get parts for it.

People have been modifying and customizing vehicles for years, such as a street rod (or hot rod) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_rod#1960_to_1990). But that's strictly for their enjoyment. If you look at how much money they put into those vehicles you'd probably discover it's a lot more than purchasing a new standard vehicle. Many of those customized vehicles are not even street legal.

I really question if an ICE vehicle can be converted to electric in a cost effective manner for use as a standard household vehicle - and meet legal requirements. The only market I see for conversion is for show type cars.

Mike

[I did restoration on old Porsches years ago and that was only to bring them back to close to the original condition. Just doing that can cost a lot (a whole lot) more than the vehicle cost new. And that was not considering my labor cost - just parts and contracted work, such as painting and upholstery.]

[Warren Lake]

Watch some you tubes and see how far it has gone.

Nothing new about restorations, people spend 200k restoring classic cars and some are not worth a quarter of that if sold. Still those people doing the restoration work have more work than they can handle.

Im sure EV would not agree with you, at the moment he has 3 1/2 years work booked. Cant really think of anyone I know who has 3 years work booked ahead of time.

I never thought about paying attention to it. Now they get what ive said for a long time. Bring back some of the old body styles with new technology and some of them are doing that, More and more of them are getting people want to do it to old stuff they already own hence GM crate motors whenever they arrive or Tesla selling motors to people or others.

[Scott Clausen]

Maybe true but the predicted battery life is 10 to 20 years not 5 years and the average cost to replace is $5500 not $10000. The average gasoline engine car lasts about 12 years.
The cost should be coming down but I have never seen a battery last more than five years and by the time you get to five years it will have less than 50% capacity. I work with batteries in my systems and I challenge anyone out there, how many of you have a car, phone, laptop or alarm and have a battery in it that is ten to twenty years old and takes a full charge? Unless they have come out with a new super battery I think electric cars will flood the used car market as people want to let the next owner deal with that $5K to 10K hit.

[Rod Sheridan]

Most of the battery banks I’ve worked with get to 80% capacity around 14 years of age, for flooded lead acid.

Large VRLA cells last almost as long…..Rod.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, conversions are "specialty vehicles" at the present time and I don't expect that there will be any reason or advantage to any kind of mass changeover. But it's a neat option for folks who want to take, say...a classic vehicle, such as an older "muscle car" and put a 1000 hop of pure electric power under it.

[Dan Friedrichs]

The cost should be coming down but I have never seen a battery last more than five years and by the time you get to five years it will have less than 50% capacity. I work with batteries in my systems and I challenge anyone out there, how many of you have a car, phone, laptop or alarm and have a battery in it that is ten to twenty years old and takes a full charge? Unless they have come out with a new super battery I think electric cars will flood the used car market as people want to let the next owner deal with that $5K to 10K hit.

Tesla must know something you don't, because their warranty guarantees >70% capacity for 8 years or 120k miles...

[Mike Henderson]

I think federal law requires EV makers to warrantee a battery for 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. Some makers go further. Here's a list of the warrantee from different makers: (https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/how-long-do-electric-car-batteries-last/)

Battery life is determined more by the number of charge cycles, and not by years. You probably charge your smartphone every night. You should not charge your EV except when it needs it, same as you don't put gas into it every day. Fast charging (super charging) can cause a lot of heat which can degrade a battery.



Audi Eight years/100,000 miles
BMW Eight years/100,000 miles
Honda Eight years/100,000 miles
Hyundai Eight years/125,000 miles
Kia Seven years/100,000 miles
Mercedes Eight years/100,000 miles
MG Seven years/80000 miles
Jaguar Eight years/100,000 miles
Nissan Eight years/100,000 miles
Polestar Eight years/100,000 miles
Porsche Eight years/100,000 miles
Renault Eight years/100,000 miles
Seat Eight years/100,000 miles
Smart Eight years/62500 miles
Tesla Eight years/120,000 miles (150,000 miles for the Model S and Model X)
VW Eight years/100,000 miles
Volvo Eight years/ 100,000 miles

Mike

[Here's a very good discussion of battery life. (https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/)]
[Here's another link to battery life. (https://www.greencars.com/guides/definitive-guide-to-electric-car-batteries-range)]

[Brian Elfert]

Way more engineering goes into an electric car battery than into a phone battery. Most electric car batteries have sophisticated thermal management systems to keep the battery in the optimum temperature range. The original Nissan Leaf did not have much in the way of thermal management and those batteries degrade pretty quickly.

[Warren Lake]

Here is my current (current) attery story. 3

Years ago I bouight a skoot about car for long drives to long term care for my mom as it was far. I got all the paperwork from it and saw it had a new Delco Battery put in. Then I saw 2 years later a new Delco batter replaced under warranty. In the month now the car has not started twice. I checked and it read 12.26. Higher than I would have thought for a no start. Trickle charger on and it was charging at over 14 amps so the battery was thirsty. So time for a battery and fine.

I only use Interstate batteries last while and I oversize one or two sizes what ever I can physically get in. I looked at the space and unless I cut some metal I wont be going over size. Reading about interstate batteries to see the model I can fit I saw there were three different quality levels of hose batteries. Something I dont think ever was presented to me from the supplier. Id have to check but the one in the truck is likely six years old at least.

Now the replacement Delco in the car, its exactly 8 years old so the first one lasted two years and this one has lasted 8 years bang on. Thats pretty damn good.

[Scott Clausen]

Tesla must know something you don't, because their warranty guarantees >70% capacity for 8 years or 120k miles...
Wasn't aware of the warranties and I suppose a loss of 50% at five years is a generalization but is close to what I see in fire alarm systems which are Sealed Lead Acid. My car battery will always need to be replaced at around year four. I always buy the top rated battery one level below the marine model. Once I get to a cold day and hear the starter struggle its time. I must admit that 8 years with 30% capacity loss is a lot closer to 5 years and 50% than 15 to 20 years. So I guess the question is will someone be willing to pay for an eight year old car knowing that it is likely going to need a full battery set? Not arguing the point but saying it will be interesting to see how the market behaves as these car age to that magic point.

[Scott Clausen]

I think federal law requires EV makers to warrantee a battery for 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. Some makers go further. Here's a list of the warrantee from different makers: (https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/how-long-do-electric-car-batteries-last/)

Battery life is determined more by the number of charge cycles, and not by years. You probably charge your smartphone every night. You should not charge your EV except when it needs it, same as you don't put gas into it every day. Fast charging (super charging) can cause a lot of heat which can degrade a battery.




Mike

[Here's a very good discussion of battery life. (https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/)]
[Here's another link to battery life. (https://www.greencars.com/guides/definitive-guide-to-electric-car-batteries-range)]
Hah!, You haven't met my wife. If the gas tank is at half full it's empty to her. I am sure she will be a battery abuser.

[Jim Matthews]

So I guess the question is will someone be willing to pay for an eight year old car knowing that it is likely going to need a full battery set? Not arguing the point but saying it will be interesting to see how the market behaves as these car age to that magic point.

Comparing a sealed 12V lead/acid battery to a 450V thermally regulated 4860 Li pack is like comparing parallel parking to landing on The Moon.

With the average age of American cars above 12, there are plenty of vehicles still on the road long after the manufacturer stops covering parts and labor for repairs. It may not be immediately obvious, but few cars stop working when the warranty ends.

The major stumbling block to is the Osborne effect, as available EVs are few and newer models are announced regularly.

https://electrek.co/2021/08/12/tesla-claims-battery-packs-lose-only-capacity-200000-miles/

[Alan Lightstone]

I saw about as 10% degradation of capacity on my Tesla P85D after 80K miles. I thought that was pretty reasonable. Still had 204 miles on a typical charge.

We'll see how the new one does. Brand new today it shows 356 miles of charge with the typical 90% charge it goes to on a normal charge. Which means, I could get more miles, but not a good thing to do regularly.

How long would this last stuck in a snowstorm? I have no clue, but clearly a long time.

[Bob Turkovich]

Here's an interesting article comparing the current cost of operating EV vs. ICE vehicles.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2021/10/21/electric-vehicle-charging-cost-vs-gas/6110815001/

Note: freep is the Detroit Free Press which is part of the USAToday chain of newspapers.

[Alan Lightstone]

It's a ridiculous study. First of all, my home charger was free (long story), but let's say you just wired a NEMA 14-50 outlet, which is what most people do. Typically costs $350, which is what I paid in my last house. And I could have wired it myself.

The vast majority of EV users charge their cars at home. My theoretical costs for this are about $7.00 a week at most. I drive about 12K miles a year. So my cost per mile in electricity is $0.03/mile. My wife has a sedan. We just paid $65.00 to fill it up. Doing the similar math on her car, with the price of gas in Florida (which certainly is far cheaper than California or Alaska, for example), her gas car costs $0.18/mile, or 6 times more expensive.

Oh, and I have a solar powered house, so my real cost per mile is ZERO.

[Lee DeRaud]

And the award for "Quote of the Week" goes to:


Comparing a sealed 12V lead/acid battery to a 450V thermally regulated 4860 Li pack is like comparing parallel parking to landing on The Moon.

:)

[Alex Zeller]

Mike, that's one of the issues that EVs will have to work out. I don't need to keep my ICE's tank full because I can pull into any gas station, fill it, and be back on the road in under 5 minutes. If I'm going to work the next day I don't need a full tank. But on days off (I work a 12 hour shift so I get lots of them) I can decide at the last moment to go for a drive to take pictures. It's not that unusual for me to go several hundred miles.

But that's the real issue with EVs. Everybody is different. Some people drive 12k miles a year while others do twice that a month. Some people have a garage (like me) with a 100 amp 240v subpanel in it while others don't. Some people have no codes so they can add a 240v outlet for very cheap while others have no choice but to hire an electrician (the price of which will vary wildy depending on your location). While others will not be able to even have a charger where they live.

As for solar panels and it being "free" to charge. It's not free since the panels weren't free. They will pay for themselves though, not as fast around here since we get lots of cloudy days and plenty of snow vs you guys in southern CA. Since I work during the day I would have to count on net metering or spend more money and install batteries in the garage (which actually sounds like a good idea vs a large standby generator). Net metering is not going to last as more and more people install panels. Also, at least for me, it would be cheaper to buy a diesel vehicle and just grow a crop to convert into biodiesel.

My personal opinion is the government should be pushing plug in hybrids with 100 mile+ range. Enough range so people can get an idea of how easy an EV would fit into their lives.

[Brian Elfert]

As for solar panels and it being "free" to charge. It's not free since the panels weren't free. They will pay for themselves though, not as fast around here since we get lots of cloudy days and plenty of snow vs you guys in southern CA. Since I work during the day I would have to count on net metering or spend more money and install batteries in the garage (which actually sounds like a good idea vs a large standby generator). Net metering is not going to last as more and more people install panels. Also, at least for me, it would be cheaper to buy a diesel vehicle and just grow a crop to convert into biodiesel.

My personal opinion is the government should be pushing plug in hybrids with 100 mile+ range. Enough range so people can get an idea of how easy an EV would fit into their lives.

I have solar and my electricity certainly is not free when you consider the cost of equipment. Because I ended up spending a ton of money to move my panels to make room for a new garage/shop I will have a payback period of at least 15 years on my solar. I save about $1,000 per year on electricity. I am hoping the state of Minnesota will grandfather net metering for 20 years as they have talked about. It might be 20 years from original start date. If it doesn't happen the money is already spent on my solar and I have no loan to pay off.

The government is offering the same $7,500 tax credit for plug-in hybrids as for electric vehicles so they are promoting them in a way. I suspect a lot of people would never charge the battery while on a road trip and just buy gasoline. It makes a lot of sense for around town use. I would like a plug-in hybrid, but a new plug-in minivan is over $50,000 before tax credit. A new minivan would have a lot of luxury features I have no use for. I paid just over $20,000 new for my 2016 minivan and while the base model it has everything I need.

[Prashun Patel]

Running that wire may be beyond the capacity of many even intrepid homeowners. Not uncommon for this to be a cost north of 1000

[Mike Henderson]

Running that wire may be beyond the capacity of many even intrepid homeowners. Not uncommon for this to be a cost north of 1000

Well, a NEMA 14-50 outlet should use 6-3 wire which is a bit expensive and stiff to work with. But anyone who has done a reasonable amount of electrical wiring can do it, assuming you have space in your panel for another breaker.

If you hired an electrician to do the above - not to install a subpanel - it should be less than $1,000 unless you are in a very expensive area.

I put in a 100 amp subpanel feeding two NEMA 14-50 outlets with 6-3 and it didn't cost $1,000. I don't remember the exact cost but it was above $500. The wire was the big cost - the wire to the subpanel and the length of 6-3 to go from the subpanel to the outlets individually.

With an electrician it might have cost $1,000 or more.

Mike

[Ronald Blue]

I do like the "my cost is 0 because I have solar panels" comment. Free solar panels too apparently. Hmmmm. Since the majority of vehicles are parked overnight and that's when the charging occurs the solar is only marginally beneficial. I worked with a guy who had an acreage and added solar panels. While it greatly reduces his electric bill at least here the credit on the bill doesn't match the cost per kwh and that makes some sense. Electric coops have to maintain the network too. I'm not sure everything mentioned in the article is correct but I also think those who claim that there is no cost's associated with an EV after the electric cost aren't necessarily realistic either. More to come I'm certain.

[Jim Becker]

Ronald, many folks using Solar to generate also have storage battery walls for "when the sun don't shine"...if they are feeding excess back to the utility, they also gain credit for that against what they might use off the grid at night.

[Mike Henderson]

In the "old days" when everyone had mechanical electric power meters, the meter would run backwards when power was fed back to the grid. Then, when you used power, the meter would run forwards. In that situation, you were using the grid as a "battery" - you were putting power in at one time of day and taking it out at another time of day.

Now, most people have electronic meters and the electronic meters can detect power direction. In some places, the power company will pay a certain price for power you put into the grid, and charge you a different (higher) price when you take it out.

In other situations, the power company is required to pay you the same price as they charge. In this case, it's just like the old electric meters. However, the power company may charge more for electricity when the sun is not shining, making it more expensive to use power at night.

In any case, it's fair to say that if you have solar you are using solar power to charge your car, no matter what time of day you charge it.

Most people do not install enough solar panels to zero out their electric usage so some of their power usage, whether to run the home A/C, or to charge the car, comes from the grid.

Solar panels significantly reduce the total amount of power you take from the grid.

Mike

[Brian Elfert]

Ronald, many folks using Solar to generate also have storage battery walls for "when the sun don't shine"...if they are feeding excess back to the utility, they also gain credit for that against what they might use off the grid at night.

The number of solar users who are tied to the grid and have batteries is very few. Batteries just don't make financial sense if you have grid access in most cases. Right now, the people who have batteries typically want backup power that doesn't require a generator. Most solar users who are grid tied simply pull power from the grid when the sun is not shining. I have enough solar power to cover 150% of my total usage. The extra goes to cover the $20 a month in fees and anything remaining after that I get a check from the utility. I have been getting $300 to $400 every year from the utility.

[Brian Elfert]

Some analog meters would actually charge the customer for electricity sent to the grid. Other analog meters would simply do nothing if power was sent to the grid. My utility had special bi-directional analog meters for solar customers. My utility was very clear I should not run the solar except for testing before my new meter was in.

I was the very first customer in my area to get a smart meter when I got solar. The utility didn't want to replace my meter twice. The advantage for me was they didn't charge me $189 to put in a bi-directional meter since they had to replace the meter anyhow.

[Scott Clausen]

And the award for "Quote of the Week" goes to:



:)
I did like that. I had no idea that EV's had 450 volt batteries in them, I guess I need to do some research on this topic.

I hear that fire departments are having to do some training on how to deal with EV's after a bad accident, that old get a hose on it doesn't work well for a battery fire.

[roger wiegand]

FWIW, Hertz announced this morning that they have ordered 100,000 Teslas to be available starting on November. Once delivered they will make up about a quarter of Hertz' worldwide fleet.

[Brian Elfert]

FWIW, Hertz announced this morning that they have ordered 100,000 Teslas to be available starting on November. Once delivered they will make up about a quarter of Hertz' worldwide fleet.

I wonder how this will affect rental car pricing? I wonder if Hertz is doing this in part because they simply need more cars to meet rental demand?

One article stated this is one time Hertz is paying full retail for cars. However, they are getting at least a 10% discount if they are paying $40,000 per car.

[Edwin Santos]

I wonder if Hertz is doing this in part because they simply need more cars to meet rental demand?



That may be part of it, but another big part may be the marketing advantages. To associate the Tesla brand with Hertz puts Hertz on the leading tech edge from a perception standpoint.
I wonder if there was exclusivity built into the deal that effectively cuts off other rental car companies from accessing Tesla. Hertz and Tesla are two names that go together very well ironically.

Last month I flew into Vancouver BC and rented a car from Budget who had some prominent signage that they were offering the electric Volvo SUV. I asked about it and the guy at the counter told me there was way more demand than they expected and the few they had were always booked out. Coincidentally, the AirBnB I was using offered EV charging as one of the amenities. I don't recall the exact rental price of the Volvo but it was definitely higher than the ICE vehicles.

[Scott Clausen]

Last month I flew into Vancouver BC and rented a car from Budget who had some prominent signage that they were offering the electric Volvo SUV. I asked about it and the guy at the counter told me there was way more demand than they expected and the few they had were always booked out. Coincidentally, the AirBnB I was using offered EV charging as one of the amenities. I don't recall the exact rental price of the Volvo but it was definitely higher than the ICE vehicles.
Maybe that's the bet, if the price is a little more I might go ahead and get the Tesla just for the fun of it. I have a feeling that the auto driving function will be turned off for us untrained renters.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... it was definitely higher than the ICE vehicles.

"...only $6 more!"

I always have to laugh at the up-sale at the counters. No matter which level you decide on, there is always one better.

Old story: Hertz(?) at one time rented Shelby GT 350s. They were NEVER available on the weekends - - since someone had rented it for their day on the racetrack.

[Rick Potter]

There was also a new batch of Hertz Mustangs a couple years ago. The 60's models get premium money on the old car market.

Aside from travelers who rent one for the unique opportunity, Hertz Teslas will be in rental demand for prospective buyers who want to try one out before buying a new one.

[Jim Becker]

I think that Hertz has multiple motivations for the Tesla buy; market differentiation, additional supplier source in a constrained manufacturing market, bringing change as they reinvent themselves coming off the bankruptcy, etc.

I think that Rick is also correct that, there's going to be money made by them for what is effectively "extended test drives" by prospective Tesla buyers.

[Edwin Santos]

I think that Hertz has multiple motivations for the Tesla buy;

Agreed, and I might say Tesla has equally numerous motivations for the Hertz sale.
It makes you wonder which side initiated the idea because a good case could be made either way. Clever move

[Brian Elfert]

Isn't this deal with Hertz just going to make the wait for the public to get Telsa vehicles even worse? The wait to buy a model 3 today is between one and two months depending on which option is selected. 10% of Tesla's entire production for the next year is going exclusively to Hertz. Hertz doesn't have an exclusive with Tesla, but Tesla may not have the cars available to sell to any other rental car company.

[Jim Becker]

Brian, the wait for a factory order from any vehicle manufacturer right now is typically between 8 and 16 weeks at the moment, depending on the make/model.

[roger wiegand]

I think it is a brilliant co-marketing strategy from both side's perspectives. Hertz will have a vehicle many will be willing to pay extra to try out, and Tesla will get thousands of extended test drives without having to use their own vehicles.

[roger wiegand]

Isn't this deal with Hertz just going to make the wait for the public to get Telsa vehicles even worse? The wait to buy a model 3 today is between one and two months depending on which option is selected. 10% of Tesla's entire production for the next year is going exclusively to Hertz. Hertz doesn't have an exclusive with Tesla, but Tesla may not have the cars available to sell to any other rental car company.

With the Berlin and Austin Gigafactories coming on line it "should" be a much smaller fraction of Tesla's capacity. We'll see how that goes!

[Bob Turkovich]

Here's a follow-up article to the link in my previous post - now presenting an opposite opinion...

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2021/10/26/electric-car-gas-comparison-cost-charge/6173743001/


This article was co-authored by the author of the previous link and Mark Thelan (who has been a longtime auto beat writer for the Freep.)

[Alan Lightstone]

Not sure if I can post this link, but Hertz is already advertising the ability to rent Tesla Model 3's with free supercharging at Tesla superchargers.

https://www.hertz.com/rentacar/rental-car-deals/tesla-car-rentals/?utm_source=dv360&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=LetsGo&utm_content=brand_EVlaunchv1&utm_term=b&dclid=CNC_htjM6vMCFWZMwQodu7YDsg

Didn't take them long to get that out, though a quick check looking for one at Tampa International Airport didn't show any listed.

[Ronald Blue]

Not sure if I can post this link, but Hertz is already advertising the ability to rent Tesla Model 3's with free supercharging at Tesla superchargers.

https://www.hertz.com/rentacar/rental-car-deals/tesla-car-rentals/?utm_source=dv360&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=LetsGo&utm_content=brand_EVlaunchv1&utm_term=b&dclid=CNC_htjM6vMCFWZMwQodu7YDsg

Didn't take them long to get that out, though a quick check looking for one at Tampa International Airport didn't show any listed.

Take it a step further and see if you can find one to rent. I was curious so I searched first St Louis, then Dallas, then Los Angeles going all the way out to November of 2022. Maybe because I'm not a Hertz member it showed no availability but plenty other vehicles did. I was just curious what the rental rate was. But with no availability there was no rate displayed. I stand corrected. Using the link you provided it works. Only $399 per day. No thank you.

[Rick Potter]

I just read that Hertz is gonna rent thousands of them to Uber drivers for $300 per month, including insurance.

Hard to believe, but apparently the deal is for 150,000 cars over whatever period of time. This was on a Ford Website, and also mentioned that the CEO of Hertz is the former CEO of Ford.

Speaking of Ford, the Lightning plant is not the whole story. Ford is gonna build 'Blue Oval City' in Tennessee at a cost of 5 BILLION dollars. They will be building other cars and batteries there.

Gee, I wonder why CA wasn't in the running?

[Doug Garson]

I just read that Hertz is gonna rent thousands of them to Uber drivers for $300 per month, including insurance.

Hard to believe, but apparently the deal is for 150,000 cars over whatever period of time. This was on a Ford Website, and also mentioned that the CEO of Hertz is the former CEO of Ford

MMMMM, sounds too good to be true, maybe because it's not. The deal is actually per week not month. Still a deal. I also wonder why it would be on a Ford website, I looked at Ford.com and didn't see it.

[Bill Dufour]

Only $399 per day. No thank you.
Not a bad rate for renting a supercar. I bet a slower car like a Ferrari or Lamborghini would cost more.
Bill D

[Rick Potter]

We are both right Doug.

I got the $300 a month from the banner for the story on Green Car Reports. I didn't bother reading the whole story, which said $300 per week, including insurance. That's $47 a day, and it mentions how leasing it from Tesla is much more expensive.

The mention of Fords former CEO being the CEO of Hertz came from Ford Authority website, which has connections to various Ford employees, and Ford seemingly uses their leaks of upcoming changes as a 'look the other way' of getting rumors going.

I think this website was the one that just broke the news of Ford possibly building Hybrid versions of the regular Mustang.

Yes I am a Ford fanboy, I own two C-Max plug-ins, a GT Convertible, an F-250 diesel, a '56, '55 bird, Model A hotrod, and a T touring with a V8-60.

[Frederick Skelly]

I'm still learning about electrics and I'm enjoying this thread.

Yesterday, I saw an SUV with Mustang tail lights. I thought "well, that's an odd customization". But it turned out to be an electric Mustang SUV - didnt know about that one. I won't laugh at it - too many people laughed (initially) at Porsche for the Cayenne. But still I was surprised they did it to the 'Stang.

[Jim Becker]

Fred, yes, that Mustang EV is real and has been around now for a bit. There have been some "hairy eyeballs" around reuse of the name on an SUV?CUV, but in the end, they did bring along some of the Mustang look. I suspect they chose an SUV/CUV type bodystyle simply because that's what's driving the industry right now. Sedans/Coupes are way down in popularity vs SUVs and trucks, so when diving into the EV marketplace, it was logical to embrace what the market likes relative to body style.

[Lee DeRaud]

Fred, yes, that Mustang EV is real and has been around now for a bit. There have been some "hairy eyeballs" around reuse of the name on an SUV?CUV, but in the end, they did bring along some of the Mustang look. I suspect they chose an SUV/CUV type bodystyle simply because that's what's driving the industry right now. Sedans/Coupes are way down in popularity vs SUVs and trucks, so when diving into the EV marketplace, it was logical to embrace what the market likes relative to body style.Also an easier platform to deal with in terms of battery placement.

There are rumors of an EV Corvette in the works. Not sure where they'd put the batteries, short of embedding them in the frame rails. I certainly hope it doesn't turn out to be a rebadged Tahoe.

[Warren Lake]

2 electric motors, 1000 hp, four wheel steering, four wheel drive 2023, at least that is what I thought I heard on a you tube.

[Jim Becker]

There are rumors of an EV Corvette in the works. Not sure where they'd put the batteries, short of embedding them in the frame rails. I certainly hope it doesn't turn out to be a rebadged Tahoe.

I think I read that in an article about the latest Corvette version with the smaller, but more powerful ICE engine. GM is very likely to do what other "performance car" companies are doing which is moving to electrification. Given that the current generation of Corvette is mid-engine with the cabin pushed forward, I don't believe they will have to "SUV-it" to be able to deal with room for batteries. ;)

[roger wiegand]

The Tesla Roadster apparently has plenty of room for batteries. 0-60 in 1.9 seconds, 250 mph top speed, 600 mile range promised. They should be able to pack a lot into the Corvette.

If you get one you can hope you have someone willing to give you lots of tires, have to imagine it eats them for lunch with that kind of acceleration! The batteries provide a really low center of mass which really improves handling.

[Ronald Blue]

I think I read that in an article about the latest Corvette version with the smaller, but more powerful ICE engine. GM is very likely to do what other "performance car" companies are doing which is moving to electrification. Given that the current generation of Corvette is mid-engine with the cabin pushed forward, I don't believe they will have to "SUV-it" to be able to deal with room for batteries. ;)

Actually GM made EV committments well before Ford. I think they are to have 25 EV's by 2025. I just saw the Cadillac Lyriq advertised last night on TV. I don't know if it's on sale yet or not. I didn't look but it's pretty sharp in my opinion. There is a Corvette ERay in the pipeline. I get Corvette newsletters since I'm in a couple Corvette forums. Happy owner of a 2014 C7 Convertible here. Just what every old man needs. :)

[Ronald Blue]

Yes I am a Ford fanboy, I own two C-Max plug-ins, a GT Convertible, an F-250 diesel, a '56, '55 bird, Model A hotrod, and a T touring with a V8-60.

So is your Model A hotrod actually Ford powered Rick? The vast majority have small block Chevy's.

[Lee DeRaud]

The Tesla Roadster apparently has plenty of room for batteries. 0-60 in 1.9 seconds, 250 mph top speed, 600 mile range promised. They should be able to pack a lot into the Corvette.I'd take those numbers with a very large lump of salt: unless it's using a radically different tech than the Model S, the 200kWh battery they're talking about for the Roadster weighs about 1600lbs and takes up about 20 cubic feet of space. But it boils down to the Tesla having the advantage of being designed around the battery instead of vice versa.

So let's back off that about 50% (at least) and assume something comparable to the Model S drivetrain stuffed into the 'Vette. The motor takes up a not-insignificant amount of space itself: figure at least half the current engine bay by the time the controller electronics and accessory units (e.g. electric A/C) get added in. Here's the fun part: the trunks on the C8 total out to 12cu-ft, not much more than the size of the battery packs. Problem is, the (much larger) rear one is in a terrible location for something as heavy as battery packs: way too far back and way too high. You might get half a Tesla worth of battery into the front trunk, unless of course you want to have AWD and you need that space for a second motor or transfer case. That leaves whatever useful remains of the engine bay, which will again be higher than desirable, but at least it's inside the wheelbase.

Short of redesigning the whole car, the C8 makes a lot more sense as a hybrid than a pure EV.

[Doug Garson]

Seems to me if you are going to make an EV version of such an iconic car it would be foolish not to redesign the whole car and do it right. GM has committed to eliminate all ICE vehicle production by 2035.

[Lee DeRaud]

Seems to me if you are going to make an EV version of such an iconic car it would be foolish not to redesign the whole car and do it right.Agreed, but that doesn't fit with the timeframe they've been discussing: possible 2024 introduction.

[Scott Clausen]

I can see it now, "Do you want to prepay the charging cost or stop to recharge before dropping off"

[Ronald Blue]

Agreed, but that doesn't fit with the timeframe they've been discussing: possible 2024 introduction.

Since they have been working on EV's for a while now I would guess they have been doing the ERay project for a while now. I looked and the trademark and patents were filed in 2015. It's a hybrid and not a full plug in EV. It will be AWD with the front wheels electrically driven. Here is a link with some info.
gmauthority.com/blog/gm/chevrolet/corvette/chevrolet-corvette-c8/chevrolet-corvette-c8-e-ray/

[Rick Potter]

Ronald,

The Model A has an '84 Chevy Camaro 2.7 L. V-6 in it, with a turbo 350 trans. It was that way when I got it, and the main reason I got it. Model A frames are pretty flexible, and you can twist one with torque if it is not beefed up.

I just wanted this one to drive around, not to impress anybody, and it has been that way for over 25 years. I used to have an A coupe with rumble seat (for 25 years), with a Pinto motor in it, and always regretted letting it go. Lot's of A's had pinto motors, they even bolted to the original bell housing.

Funny you ask, because just this morning my son in Texas asked me to sell it to him, as it reminds him of the coupe we had, and his son loves driving my Tudor. I suspect it will be heading East soon, on extended loan. The 'T' with the V8 60 motor is in the same situation at my son in laws home a few miles from me.

You see a lot of Chevy motors in old Fords because they are several inches shorter than most Ford motors.....they fit.

[Lee DeRaud]

Since they have been working on EV's for a while now I would guess they have been doing the ERay project for a while now. I looked and the trademark and patents were filed in 2015. It's a hybrid and not a full plug in EV. It will be AWD with the front wheels electrically driven. Here is a link with some info.
gmauthority.com/blog/gm/chevrolet/corvette/chevrolet-corvette-c8/chevrolet-corvette-c8-e-ray/
Yeah, 8kWh of battery is quite a bit more easier to package than the 80-100 that a full EV would require.


Short of redesigning the whole car, the C8 makes a lot more sense as a hybrid than a pure EV.
Like I said... :)

Historically, a full platform change for the Corvette has been at least a 5-6 year development cycle. Full-EV "C9" in 2025 or later sounds a bit more reasonable.

[roger wiegand]

OK, here's the answer to all of the electric car problems:

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/new-mercedes/3021121

[Jerome Stanek]

Isn't this deal with Hertz just going to make the wait for the public to get Telsa vehicles even worse? The wait to buy a model 3 today is between one and two months depending on which option is selected. 10% of Tesla's entire production for the next year is going exclusively to Hertz. Hertz doesn't have an exclusive with Tesla, but Tesla may not have the cars available to sell to any other rental car company.

Way back in 1967 the wait for a new ordered car was 2 to 4 months.

[Alan Lightstone]

ok, here's the answer to all of the electric car problems:

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/new-mercedes/3021121

rotflmao :D

[Doug Garson]

:mad: It won't play for me, I get the message "THIS VIDEO IS NOT AVAILABLE IN YOUR LOCATION", what are you guys down there trying to hide? :confused:

[Warren Lake]

wont play for me either might have to move to LA. Could use some humour at the moment and have 10 friends that scoff at them despite you tubes ive sent they refuse to assimilate or even acknowledge.

I sometimes think Eugene Levi should change his name to Eugene Levity

[Jim Becker]

Way back in 1967 the wait for a new ordered car was 2 to 4 months.

I remember that as it was my dad's habit to always factory order. That was at a time when nearly every feature could be ordered a la carté ... even colors in many cases. (I factory order most of the time, too...I want what I want, as it were. :) )

[Brian Elfert]

Way back in 1967 the wait for a new ordered car was 2 to 4 months.

What exactly does that have to do with today's situation? In 1967 were dealer lots also almost completely empty so you couldn't just go to a dealer and drive off the lot with a new vehicle?

For many years prior to the pandemic it was possible to go to a dealer and be able to get just about any vehicle you wanted without having to order it from the factory. Today, it is difficult to buy a new vehicle without having to order one, or putting a deposit on one that the dealer ordered.

[Doug Garson]

I found a playable link to the video for those of us in the great white north.:cool:
https://www.metatube.com/en/videos/303027/SNL-Julia-Louis-Dreyfus-Jokes-About-Her-Years-On-SNL-In-Monologue/
I hear Mini is working on a model that runs on AAA batteries. :D

[Warren Lake]

If so then Elon will be working on one that runs on watch batteries

[Bill Dufour]

The Tesla battery pack is made of AA batteries linked together with some heat sensors thrown in for good measure. I think it is about 12,000 separate cells.
Bill D

On edit 4,416. cells inside. they are standard laptop 4680 batteries

[Ross Moshinsky]

I have 3 EVs (2 Bolts & 1 Niro) and a traditional hybrid in our family. We got the EVs back in July so I haven't gone through a NJ winter with them yet, but if anyone has any questions, have at it.

The best summary I can give for EVs are: They're not perfect, but neither is your car. There's an old saying: With the good, comes the bad. This is no different. What I will say is, the bad so far, really hasn't been that bad.

[Tom M King]

What is the most common/preferred receptacle to use for EV's? I need to put in a couple on a lake rental house. I just upgraded the Service Entrance from 200, to 400 amp for other purposes, so have plenty of spots for them.

Around here, the offseason rentals are filled up with people working from home, who can work from where they want to. The number of Tesla's on the road goes up significantly during this time, along with various other EV's.

[Jim Becker]

Tom, if I'm not mistaken, it's a common 50a four wire receptacle. For Tesla owners that don't have the custom Tesla hookup available, there is an adapter. Most EVs (including Tesla) can also charge (really slowly) from a 20 amp 120v circuit, too.

[Tom M King]

Just a range receptacle? https://www.rpp-usa.com/50a-4-wire-range-receptacle-flush-mount

[Jim Becker]

That's the impression I have, but I could be wrong...

Obviously, you'd need to deal with weather proofing if the connection isn't inside of a closed garage space, too. I haven't started looking into it exactly because we're about two years away from an EV, but I'll likely do an outside connection. There are commercially available Level 2 charging setups that probably take into account weather in their design.

[Tom M King]

One will be inside the garage, and one on the outside. I guess I could use one of these on the outside? https://www.amazon.com/Talon-LGP1S-Enclosed-Outdoor-Receptacle/dp/B00M3H6494/ref=asc_df_B00M3H6494/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167135564802&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11218433056723276286&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9009786&hvtargid=pla-307263286788&psc=1

edited to add: I'll get a brand I'm familiar with from my favorite electrical supplier. Just needed to know the receptacle type. I have a couple of Siemens 30 and 50 amp RV boxes. I guess they could use those, but it would be nice to have some at the house. The RV hookups aren't exactly near the house.

[Jim Becker]

Seems to be the right thing...you definitely want the 50 amp version as far as I know. (NEMA 14-50)

[Mike Henderson]

Some of the people who have EVs in my area put the NEMA 14-50 outlet in the garage and use a long charging cord. Closing the garage door doesn't seem to affect the cord.

Mike

[Ross Moshinsky]

14-50 is the most popular receptacle type. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the 6-50 plug type either. The 14-50 plug type was adapted because it was seen as a bit more universally used outside of EVs. There used to be some idea that EVs would park at camp grounds instead of hotels and charge there. While some people do this, this is not really a thing to consider any longer.

The difference between the 14-50 and 6-50 is the the 14-50 has a 3 wires + ground where the 6-50 has 2 wires + ground. The 3rd wire (common) is used for ovens and driers and things like that so they can use 120V and 240V on the same plug. 6-50 is 100% 240V. As far as I'm aware NO EVSE (EV Charger) requires the common wire. So big picture, you're paying to run a 3rd line of 6 gauge copper wire for pretty much no reason.

A rule of thumb is 30A circuit will provide around 15-20miles of range per hour. 40A circuit will provide around 20-25 miles of range. A 50A circuit will provide around 25-30 miles of range. It really depends on how efficient your car is.

One more thing to mention: In 2021, the government will give you a tax credit of 30% off whatever you spend on installing and purchasing an EVSE. This includes labor, material and charger. I forget the dollar limit, but it's pretty high.

Regarding chargers: You need to decide whether you want a dumb charger or a smart charger. In my opinion, the biggest thing you get from a smart charger is the ability to track power usage. Right now Tesla actually has a great deal on a J style charger that is a "dumb" charger. Grizzl-E is another brand that is very well respected, which is actually what I have. For a smart charger, the ChargePoint Flex is probably the best bang for the buck. Be aware, if you leave the charger outside, it will likely fail before the interior one.

[Mike Henderson]

I read a Bloomberg article recently that was talking about how fast you can charge an EV. The author said that range is not the battleground now, speed of charging is. That is, top end EVs all have sufficient range but there's a difference in how fast they can recharge. I remember that the Porsche was the leader (for now) with the ability to put 200 miles into the car in (I think) 20 minutes.

The article also said that EVs are improving so fast that people trade in their EV about every three years to get the new features and functions. Sort of like smartphones when they first came out.:)

Here's an article (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/fastest-charging-electric-cars/) from someone else about the same issue.

Mike

[Rick Potter]

Great article Mike. Thanks.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Charging speed is important, but frankly, it's more about convincing non-EV owners than convincing current EV owners. Most EV owners know that charging is done at home, overnight. It's simple, easy, cheap, and effective. On a 50A circuit, you can charge about 30-35miles per hour.

The thing is, car companies have to convince non-EV drivers to convert over and their big gripes are range and charging speed. There are plenty of EV owners who only use fast chargers 5-10 times a year. Many use it far less. I've used it once so far and it was because it was free one weekend and I wanted to try it out. Tesla would be a bit of an exception because their Supercharging rates are extremely fair so there's no real downside of using their chargers vs at home.

The number of charging stations and their reliability are a way bigger issue. People who road trip will tell you that they don't have range anxiety because their car doesn't go very far on a charge or because it charges slowly. They're afraid that if they have 30 miles left of range and they pull into a charging station, will it work? If it doesn't work, will that 30 miles get them to the next charging station?

Same thing about just running around on a normal day. You might have 100 miles of range and all of a sudden an emergency happens and you need to do a 120 mile round trip. Is there a charging station in that direction? Does it work? Will it be occupied when you arrive? I'd take 100, 50-75kWh chargers spread out over 10, 350kWh chargers.

That's why it's important to talk to actual EV drivers. If you go on Youtube everything is about range and charging speeds. That just gets clicks and draws interest. The reality is, if someone wanted to make an honest video about EV ownership. It would be about 1 minute. It would be a video of a person pulling in their driveway. Taking the cord. Plugging it in. Walking away. Cut to the next morning when they unplug, curl their cord up, and jump in their car and drive away.

[roger wiegand]

Charging speed was pretty important to me as I decided which EV to buy (full disclosure, I've ordered a Tesla Model Y). The longest trip we routinely make is to my sister's in Ohio-- about 600 miles. Using the superchargers, charging at two intermediate stops will add about 35 minutes to the calculated trip time. I don't know about any of you, but I can no longer drive for 11 hours without taking a couple of 15-20 minute breaks! So this seemed completely inconsequential. This convinced me that we really didn't need to maintain an ICE vehicle for our travels.

In contrast the Ford Mach E, our other contender, requires three stops and about 90 minutes of charge time to make the same trip. That was a big enough difference to help tip the balance, along with other factors such as getting a predominantly US-made car rather than Mexican, and the much more refined and well-developed engineering of the Tesla.

There is a nice app called "A Better Route Planner" that will let you see the availability of both Tesla and other charging stations along any route you care to put in. At least in the northeast quadrant of the country there aren't too many places where there aren't multiple redundant charging opportunities.

That said, I suspect 95% of our charging will be done at home.

[Mike Henderson]

Charging speed is important, but frankly, it's more about convincing non-EV owners than convincing current EV owners. Most EV owners know that charging is done at home, overnight. It's simple, easy, cheap, and effective. On a 50A circuit, you can charge about 30-35miles per hour.

The thing is, car companies have to convince non-EV drivers to convert over and their big gripes are range and charging speed. There are plenty of EV owners who only use fast chargers 5-10 times a year. Many use it far less. I've used it once so far and it was because it was free one weekend and I wanted to try it out. Tesla would be a bit of an exception because their Supercharging rates are extremely fair so there's no real downside of using their chargers vs at home.

The number of charging stations and their reliability are a way bigger issue. People who road trip will tell you that they don't have range anxiety because their car doesn't go very far on a charge or because it charges slowly. They're afraid that if they have 30 miles left of range and they pull into a charging station, will it work? If it doesn't work, will that 30 miles get them to the next charging station?

Same thing about just running around on a normal day. You might have 100 miles of range and all of a sudden an emergency happens and you need to do a 120 mile round trip. Is there a charging station in that direction? Does it work? Will it be occupied when you arrive? I'd take 100, 50-75kWh chargers spread out over 10, 350kWh chargers.

That's why it's important to talk to actual EV drivers. If you go on Youtube everything is about range and charging speeds. That just gets clicks and draws interest. The reality is, if someone wanted to make an honest video about EV ownership. It would be about 1 minute. It would be a video of a person pulling in their driveway. Taking the cord. Plugging it in. Walking away. Cut to the next morning when they unplug, curl their cord up, and jump in their car and drive away.

There are apps that will tell you the status of each charging station - whether it's working, whether it's in use, how many stations there are in that location, etc. Tesla has that integrated into their cars - you can see it on the display.

Sure, most people will charge at home. But when you take a car trip, or have an emergency like Ross said, you need to know where the charging stations are on your route, and their status. You can easily get that, either from an app, or in your car. That's much better than trying to find a gas station in a strange area - there's very little information about where they are, and if they're open.

More charging stations are being installed every day. There's a bunch of money in the Infrastructure bill to install more.

I think people will think of charging stations the same way they think of gas stations, fairly soon.

Mike

[Jon Grider]

I don't have have time to read this whole thread; obviously I'm late to the show and forgive me if this has already been discussed, but what happens to the batteries after their useful life has expired? Are they rebuildable or will we need to find storage for spent batteries like we do for nuclear waste?

[Lee DeRaud]

I don't have have time to read this whole thread; obviously I'm late to the show and forgive me if this has already been discussed, but what happens to the batteries after their useful life has expired? Are they rebuildable or will we need to find storage for spent batteries like we do for nuclear waste?More to the point, will the cost of recycling them get baked into the initial purchase price, or will that particular can get kicked down the road?

[Steve Demuth]

Funny.

But not really far off. There are over 4000 type 4680 cells in the Tesla Model 3 "battery." It really does run on thousands of individual batteries wired in parallel into modules and ganged by module in series to get an overall high voltage; they are somewhat bigger, and of course a bit over twice the voltage of an AA, but they otherwise don't look all that different from one. The magic is their charge capacity (9-15 times that of an AA) and rechargeability.

[Doug Garson]

I wonder if those with EVs are seeing any increase in charging cost currently similar to the huge increase in gas prices.

[Steve Demuth]

I wonder if those with EVs are seeing any increase in charging cost currently similar to the huge increase in gas prices.

The majority of EV charging that I'm aware of around here is done in the cars' home garages. I suspect that's true overall - most folks go home at night and their car tops up overnight, and they need a public charger only when making an extended trip. Since electricity prices are regulated in most places, it takes some time for market energy costs to show up in your "gas tank" bill. Or, in my case, they never do, since the juice comes off our solar panels. I know pretty well to the penny what I'm going to pay for kwhs.

[Doug Garson]

The majority of EV charging that I'm aware of around here is done in the cars' home garages. I suspect that's true overall - most folks go home at night and their car tops up overnight, and they need a public charger only when making an extended trip. Since electricity prices are regulated in most places, it takes some time for market energy costs to show up in your "gas tank" bill. Or, in my case, they never do, since the juice comes off our solar panels. I know pretty well to the penny what I'm going to pay for kwhs.
Not only are electricity prices regulated so not immediately affected by market energy costs but depending on location they may never see significant impact due to fluctuations in oil prices. In BC where I live, 95% of our electricity is from renewable sources, in fact our power generation company, is called BC Hydro since that is our biggest source. Currently BC Hydro is predicting electricity prices, which are amongst the lowest in North America, to only rise less than 1 1/2% per year for the next few years. So EVs not only help reduce CO2 emissions they can also reduce the impact of wild energy price fluctuations and we all know that wild energy price fluctuations always go in one direction.

[Steve Demuth]

More to the point, will the cost of recycling them get baked into the initial purchase price, or will that particular can get kicked down the road?

The anode, cathode and electrolyte materials are inherently recyclable, and frankly need to be recycled in some case since they are in relatively short supply as virgin materials. Unfortunately, right now, they rarely are recycled because in order to make them sufficiently mechanically robust and safe, they are manufactured in such a way (everything embedded in epoxy and other composite matrix materials) that disassembling them is difficult, making the core materials from recycling more expensive than virgin materials. Long term this is a significant problem.

[Greg Funk]

Seems to be the right thing...you definitely want the 50 amp version as far as I know. (NEMA 14-50)If I was going to add a new line I'd go with 50A but I just use an existing 20A/240V plug in my garage and it works fine for my needs. If I drive to work it's about 60km round trip and takes a little over 2 hrs to recharge. If I add some errands I might get up to 80-100km in a day but can't see having an issue re-charging overnight. If I need to charge faster for some reason there's a supercharger station not far away.

[roger wiegand]

Seems to be the right thing...you definitely want the 50 amp version as far as I know. (NEMA 14-50)

I'm not aware of any chargers that require the neutral. Given the current cost of 6 or 4 AWG wire why run the extra line? A NEMA 6-50 outlet will do the trick.

[Jim Becker]

If I was going to add a new line I'd go with 50A but I just use an existing 20A/240V plug in my garage and it works fine for my needs. If I drive to work it's about 60km round trip and takes a little over 2 hrs to recharge. If I add some errands I might get up to 80-100km in a day but can't see having an issue re-charging overnight. If I need to charge faster for some reason there's a supercharger station not far away.

One of the nice things about this is that you can charge with what you have available. Yes, times are longer when you have less current available, but you can still charge. Using existing, if the charge time works for you is pretty cost effective.


I'm not aware of any chargers that require the neutral. Given the current cost of 6 or 4 AWG wire why run the extra line? A NEMA 6-50 outlet will do the trick.

I don't disagree relative to the need. Jurisdictions may require the four wire circuit, however, as someone "could", as unlikely as it may be, plug in an appliance and four wire is required for that.

[Tom M King]

I have plenty of leftover wire, but probably none without the neutral. Being close to a service panel, such a circuit wouldn't take much wire anyway. It allows other possibilities too, such as running an RV, or modern welder. Even if I had to buy wire, I'd still run the neutral.

[Brian Elfert]

You can run neutral if not needed. Just don't hook it up.

[Jim Becker]

You can run neutral if not needed. Just don't hook it up.

If it's being inspected that might not be acceptable to the local jurisdiction. There's no harm in having the full four wire circuit for this application. The charging will just not use the neutral.

[Brian Elfert]

If it's being inspected that might not be acceptable to the local jurisdiction. There's no harm in having the full four wire circuit for this application. The charging will just not use the neutral.

I haven't had any inspections issue with using leftover 14/3 cable when I needed 14/2 cable.

[Jim Becker]

I haven't had any inspections issue with using leftover 14/3 cable when I needed 14/2 cable.

Yes, but that's a different situation and I've done the same, honestly, because I hate waste and also hate spending money on something that I already essentially have. :) But in the context of this thread, we're talking a 50 amp 240 v circuit to charge an EV ... 50A 240v is typically a dedicated appliance circuit in residential settings and is required to be four wire, AFAIK. I do not honestly know if there's any specific consideration around EV charging ports in code and inspections. In the end, it may also come down to the inspector as "all approvals are local".

[roger wiegand]

4 AWG THHN copper wire (what seems to be required for a Tesla Gen3 charger at full capacity) runs about $2/ft here so that "maybe someday" wire would cost me an extra $150 or so. I'd rather just leave a pull string in the conduit for that eventuality. Since the charger is hard wired and provides its own GFCI there doesn't seem to be any issue with the code.

No desire to go delving into the code, but I've seen plenty of inspected installations where 240V power using two conductors and a ground passed without comment. Clearly installing a three conductor plus ground receptacle with no neutral attached would be a red flag no-no.

[Bill Dufour]

I would run all four conductors to a small subpanel near the new outlet location. Then you can install a 120 VC outlet for a car vacuum etc. Or a 30 amp when you use your tablesaw outside etc.
Bill D

[Tom M King]

Some RV boxes have all those in it. I bought two of them about a year ago for $88 each. I looked at them yesterday, and they are now 238 for the same Siemens box. It does have breakers, 120, as well as 30 amp 120V, and 50 amp 240V receptacles. I couldn't figure out, at the time I bought those two off Amazon, how they could sell them that cheap. It was probably one of those Amazon mistakes that show up every once in a while.

https://www.amazon.com/TL137US-Temporary-Receptacle-Installed-Unmetered/dp/B00A8FQUYW/ref=asc_df_B00A8FQUYW/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198064502357&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3877266307730277226&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9009786&hvtargid=pla-319132207842&psc=1

[Greg Funk]

I don't disagree relative to the need. Jurisdictions may require the four wire circuit, however, as someone "could", as unlikely as it may be, plug in an appliance and four wire is required for that.They couldn't plug a kitchen appliance into a 6-50 receptacle so unless the jurisdiction required appliance outlets in the garage (seems unlikely) it doesn't seem any different that providing a receptacle for a tablesaw or welder; it's just a higher capacity circuit.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I'm not an electrician but 2 hots with a ground is "standard" 240V. You need the common for certain devices, like a dryer or stove because some of the components run on 120V and the common allows the 120V items to run using hot, common, ground. There is absolutely no need for a common wire for an EVSE. I don't know about every EVSE in the world obviously, but I looked at many before I bought mine and none required a common wire.

As far as I know, you should use a 3/1 for a 14-50 plug and 2/1 wire for a 6-50 plug. This is why I went with the 6-50 plug. If you use 6-50 plug, you should be able to use 3 or 2 wire. If you use 14-50, you should only use 3 wire.

One thing people overlook is the breaker. Universally, every electrician I've spoken to has said to match your desired amperage to the breaker. So if your vehicle can only charge at 32A, you should install a 40A circuit. If you install a 50A circuit, it's far less likely to trip if a problem occurs.

Touching on battery recycling and lifetime. Companies are already being formed and studies are already coming out about how efficient battery recycling is in the very near future. The reality is, battery rebuilding/reconditioning is going to be a big business for the future. These batteries are designed to be able to swap cells. When a battery "goes bad" it's likely that it will only be a cell or a few cells. Dropping the battery, opening it up, removing the bad cells, popping in new cells, balancing the battery, and reinstalling is going to be a big business in the EV world within the next 10 years.

Let's just hope the dealers are open to allowing other shops work on these vehicles. Right to repair is a big subject and could be a big problem in the near future with EVs. With EVs theoretically needing less repairs, it wouldn't surprise me one bit for manufacturers to limit the amount of info available to the public so that dealership service departments stay busy and profitable.

[Jim Becker]

They couldn't plug a kitchen appliance into a 6-50 receptacle so unless the jurisdiction required appliance outlets in the garage (seems unlikely) it doesn't seem any different that providing a receptacle for a tablesaw or welder; it's just a higher capacity circuit.
I don't disagree with you, Greg. Let me clarify the "appliance" circuit comment for better context. For a very long time appliance circuits were simply two hots and a ground no matter what was at the device end. If the device needed a neutral, the appliance "took advantage" of the bonding between ground and neutral at the main panel and, um...just used the ground as the neutral, too. Many of us have homes that have drier outlets, for example, that were set up this way. Many older hard-wired ranges are similarly wired. Code changed to eliminate this practice so new "appliance" circuits need to have separate ground and neutral. There's no disagreement that a 50 amp EV charging circuit doesn't "need" a neutral. But that doesn't preclude an inspector/jurisdiction requiring it. That's all I'm saying. "local" matters.

[Brian Elfert]

Yes, but that's a different situation and I've done the same, honestly, because I hate waste and also hate spending money on something that I already essentially have. :) But in the context of this thread, we're talking a 50 amp 240 v circuit to charge an EV ... 50A 240v is typically a dedicated appliance circuit in residential settings and is required to be four wire, AFAIK. I do not honestly know if there's any specific consideration around EV charging ports in code and inspections. In the end, it may also come down to the inspector as "all approvals are local".

Wasn't the question if a four wire cable could be used to wire a three wire circuit?

[Greg Funk]

Touching on battery recycling and lifetime. Companies are already being formed and studies are already coming out about how efficient battery recycling is in the very near future. The reality is, battery rebuilding/reconditioning is going to be a big business for the future. These batteries are designed to be able to swap cells. When a battery "goes bad" it's likely that it will only be a cell or a few cells. Dropping the battery, opening it up, removing the bad cells, popping in new cells, balancing the battery, and reinstalling is going to be a big business in the EV world within the next 10 years.

Let's just hope the dealers are open to allowing other shops work on these vehicles. Right to repair is a big subject and could be a big problem in the near future with EVs. With EVs theoretically needing less repairs, it wouldn't surprise me one bit for manufacturers to limit the amount of info available to the public so that dealership service departments stay busy and profitable.I think re-purposing used EV batteries will likely be a decent business at some point. A battery that's 50% of its original capacity may not be useful in the vehicle but could work well for many other applications where size isn't critical. As far as repairing batteries at the cell level, that's certainly not feasible in Teslas with thousands of cells wire bonded together. It might happen at a module level where a vehicle has 3 or 4 modules that make up a 'pack'. Mixing fresh cells with aged cells doesn't generally work well.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I think re-purposing used EV batteries will likely be a decent business at some point. A battery that's 50% of its original capacity may not be useful in the vehicle but could work well for many other applications where size isn't critical. As far as repairing batteries at the cell level, that's certainly not feasible in Teslas with thousands of cells wire bonded together. It might happen at a module level where a vehicle has 3 or 4 modules that make up a 'pack'. Mixing fresh cells with aged cells doesn't generally work well.

I'm not 100% up on the latest battery info, but I think ultimately they're going to have to be willing to address the batteries at a cellular level. It will probably be handled like any other automotive part. Get a re manufactured module. Slap it in. Send the bad module out. Get a core-refund. Someone repairs the core.

Big picture, if you have a module with batteries lets say 95% capacity and 3 cells that are at 50% and it's tanking the battery, there's no reason that they can't find 3 other cells with a similar max capacity and swap them in. Then take the bad cells and recycle them. Now you can sell the module at 95% capacity which would be great for most people.

It's hard to say if a battery that is worn out will be best recycled in it's current state as a power wall or something like that or broken down and recycled into "new" batteries. I'm not smart enough to know which is the best path forward.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I'm not 100% up on the latest battery info, but I think ultimately they're going to have to be willing to address the batteries at a cellular level. ....

I don't follow the technology closely either, at least not at this level of granularity, but I am betting the smart people have already incorporated a relay here, and a transistor or 50 there, such that a bad cell (i.e. dendrite shorted) can be isolated from the other good cells. The battery just keeps chugging along at slightly lower capacity.

As you outline, someone will have to repair the defects at some point - and on some level (cell, module, or the 'battery' in its entirety).

[Greg Funk]

I'm not 100% up on the latest battery info, but I think ultimately they're going to have to be willing to address the batteries at a cellular level. It will probably be handled like any other automotive part. Get a re manufactured module. Slap it in. Send the bad module out. Get a core-refund. Someone repairs the core.

Big picture, if you have a module with batteries lets say 95% capacity and 3 cells that are at 50% and it's tanking the battery, there's no reason that they can't find 3 other cells with a similar max capacity and swap them in. Then take the bad cells and recycle them. Now you can sell the module at 95% capacity which would be great for most people.

It's hard to say if a battery that is worn out will be best recycled in it's current state as a power wall or something like that or broken down and recycled into "new" batteries. I'm not smart enough to know which is the best path forward.That's not how batteries typically age. For a well designed battery with high quality cells (as used by Tesla) all cells typically age at similar rates. Sometimes certain cells will degrade a little faster if, for example, a part of the pack gets hotter than other parts but it's relatively small variations and those variations are not really 'fixable' at the cell level.

Just so we're clear on definitions, when I'm referring to cells I'm talking about the individual Li-Ion cells used to make up a module or pack. Tesla uses the smallest 'cells' of any manufacturer - originally 18 x 65mm and eventually next year growing to 46 x 80mm. They package these cells into modules in the 90V range and then combine modules in series to make a complete pack for the vehicle.

From what I can see the packs and modules from Tesla have been very reliable and are aging well within the limits required by their warranty. Eventually they'll degrade beyond acceptable limits for drivers and they'll start replacing whole packs. I've not heard of Tesla replacing modules to date, and packs that are replaced are often due to some physical damage - rocks or accidents.

[Brian Elfert]

It is easy to buy Tesla battery modules from Tesla vehicles that have been in accidents. The undamaged modules are sold on the secondary market, often on Ebay. I don't know if a damaged battery is replaced entirely, or if just the damaged modules. Same with batteries from other electric vehicles although Tesla seems most plentiful. (I wouldn't buy a Chevy Bolt battery module with the recall.)

[Jim Becker]

It is easy to buy Tesla battery modules from Tesla vehicles that have been in accidents. The undamaged modules are sold on the secondary market, often on Ebay. I don't know if a damaged battery is replaced entirely, or if just the damaged modules. Same with batteries from other electric vehicles although Tesla seems most plentiful. (I wouldn't buy a Chevy Bolt battery module with the recall.)
True...there's a whole industry dedicated to Tesla batteries and drive systems from wrecks that are used to transplant into one-off show vehicles and concepts. It's not a straight swap however, because the Tesla software has to be hacked to make it work in a non-Tesla environment. One or more companies specialize in the software and firmware stuff to make that happen.