Converting European 3 Phase Power tools to Canada electricity [Archive]

Erez Perelman

10-05-2021, 4:35 AM

Hello,

I am interested in what it would take to convert a European bandsaw (Hammer N4400) with 3 Phase (400 V) 2.5KW, 50 Hz to Canadian household electricy (120 V, 60 Hz).
The machine has become quite specialized for me, so I would prefer not to have to replace it.

In addition I have a large reverse pulse jet air filteration unit (3.5 KW) that I want to do the same with.

I hope its possible and cheaper than buying new machines...

Thanks,
E

Greg Quenneville

10-05-2021, 5:26 AM

The bandsaw can likely be a candidate for a new motor. Or, if it has delta connections (look on the motor), you could change it quickly to 220v three phase. Then you could power it with either a vfd from your household 220v circuit (dryers I think are typically wired for higher voltages). I think some kind of rotary phase converter would be another option to make 220-240v three phase.

I like a vfd on my bandsaw for the soft start, even though I have three phase power at home.

The 3.5 kw dust unit is going to be a heavy load…probably need a phase converter or phase perfect on a dedicated 220-240v circuit which would then solve power for both machines.

Jim Becker

10-05-2021, 9:04 AM

I agree with Gregg. A VFD running on the 240v single phase in your home (it would be highly unusual that you would only have 120v rather than the normal 240v service) would likely be a way to run the machine as-is if it can be had with 400v output, but maybe a transformer may also be required. Replacing the motor with a 240v single phase or a 240v three phase plus a VFD are also good options. The motors would just need to have the correct "frame type" to mount to the saw. A 120v motor may not be practical because it will limit your power to 1.5-2hp max which is inadequate for a large machine like that.

David Kumm

10-05-2021, 10:22 AM

The N4400 is a nice machine but only worth so much cost when swapping stuff. Changing the motor might be expensive if needing 2.5kw in the same frame size. Euro companies use small frame motors that are hard to source with the given hp. If you change the frame, you also need to swap pulleys. Electricals may need changing too if the voltage is reduced. A used step up transformer and vfd might be cheaper if you can find a used transformer close enough to not have to ship it. I'd compare those costs with buying a used bandsaw of correct voltage. Dave

PS. Keep in mind that if just converting without a vfd, the blade speed will increase 20%. If you swap pulleys, take that into account or live with the extra speed.

Bill Dufour

10-05-2021, 3:05 PM

AFAIK the 120 input vfd's max out at 1 to 1.5 hp. You 2.5 KW motor is about 2.6 HP. You can use that vfd to run the band saw but it will only produce the 1 to 1.5 hp out of the motor. If you had single phase 240 volt, a 3hp vfd would do it.
Then you would have to install a transformer after the vfd to increase the voltage unless the motor can be rewired to 208.
Bill D

David Kumm

10-05-2021, 5:09 PM

2.5 kw should be close to 3.4 hp. Dave

Erez Perelman

10-06-2021, 4:13 AM

Thanks for the responses.
THe reality is that both machines will be running at the same time (saw and dust collector) which is almost 6 KW load. Is this realistic with a VFD?
What kind of motors can I get to replace the need for the VFD that would work in the common homeshop?

Greg Quenneville

10-06-2021, 7:08 AM

You cannot run more than one machine on one VFD. Again, you would need to have at least a 240v single phase service in your work area to power any motor able to do the kind of work you want. Then you have a chance to run two VFDs. That’s assuming that you can connect the 400v 3~ motors in delta which is 240v 3~. If you can, and you have 240v single phase, then you can get suitable VFDs to power those motors without the added complications of step-up transformers.

Greg Quenneville

10-06-2021, 7:09 AM

By the way, have you asked a Felder dealer what kind of motors they use for the North American market on the Hammer bandsaw?

Erez Perelman

10-07-2021, 3:13 AM

I did contact Felder and still waiting to hear back...
But I did a quick search on VFD and it looks pretty reasonable cost wise to get one at about $100 (per machine) and that would be way cheaper than starting to modify machines...
I think that's the way to go, thanks everyone for the input!!

Bobby Robbinett

10-07-2021, 7:24 AM

Another option would be to have the motors rewound to 240v and use a simple 3hp vfd on each one.

Rod Sheridan

10-07-2021, 3:13 PM

Neither machine will have a Canadian Electrical Approval, that’s issue one.

Second issue is voltage, in Canada you can’t distribute voltages higher than 150 volts to ground in a residential setting, so both machines will need an approved VFD and transformer mounted on the machine, then a field evaluation inspection will need to be performed on each machine, if there are no issues that would be about $300 per machine. If there are issues such as unapproved wire or devices, those would need to be replaced as well.

I only take this approach on stuff that isn’t available otherwise, in your case that’s not the case…..Rod.

Doug Garson

10-07-2021, 10:07 PM

Rod Sheridan

10-08-2021, 6:46 AM

Rod, is that the case for a commercial application only? Would it apply to a home hobby shop?

Hi Doug, commercial locations are not restricted to 150 volts to ground.

All electrical equipment requires a Canadian electrical approval for sale or use in Canada…….Regards, Rod

Frank Pratt

10-08-2021, 10:42 AM

Hi Doug, commercial locations are not restricted to 150 volts to ground.

All electrical equipment requires a Canadian electrical approval for sale or use in Canada…….Regards, Rod

Electrical inspectors always keep a very sharp eye out for non-approved equipment.

Jared Sankovich

10-08-2021, 11:14 AM

Electrical inspectors always keep a very sharp eye out for non-approved equipment.

Are they typically inspecting randomly or is this during a scheduled inspection for something else?

Mike Henderson

10-08-2021, 12:00 PM

Rod, is that the case for a commercial application only? Would it apply to a home hobby shop?

Let me just point out something, in case you're not aware of it. Canada's electrical system is the same as the US. They bring 240 volts into a house with a center tap grounded. So the voltage to ground is only 120 volts, even when you're using 240 volts.

Mike

Frank Pratt

10-08-2021, 2:38 PM

Are they typically inspecting randomly or is this during a scheduled inspection for something else?

That would be at a scheduled inspection where permitted work is being done.

Rod Sheridan

10-09-2021, 10:49 AM

Let me just point out something, in case you're not aware of it. Canada's electrical system is the same as the US. They bring 240 volts into a house with a center tap grounded. So the voltage to ground is only 120 volts, even when you're using 240 volts.

Mike

Good point Mike, thanks.

Our two low voltage 3 phase systems are 600/347 and 208/120 volts.

The 208 volt system can also be used in a dwelling, Inhave a friend with a 208v 3 phase service at his house….Rod

Ron Selzer

10-09-2021, 11:01 AM

Good point Mike, thanks.

Our two low voltage 3 phase systems are 600/347 and 208/120 volts.

The 208 volt system can also be used in a dwelling, Inhave a friend with a 208v 3 phase service at his house….Rod

Rod
Why the 208vac, 3 phase for a house. Electric heat or ? Would have to be a sizeable load as locally here the Electric company will keep you on single phase up to 600 amp before they will talk about 3 phase even if three phase runs right past your property
Ron

Tom Bender

10-10-2021, 8:01 AM

Just a detail, running your motors at 60 hz is not a good idea. If you use a vfd it can probably be set up to deliver a maximum of 50 hz.

Mike Henderson

10-10-2021, 1:25 PM

Just a detail, running your motors at 60 hz is not a good idea. If you use a vfd it can probably be set up to deliver a maximum of 50 hz.

Actually, running a 50 Hz motor at 60Hz is not a bad thing. A 50 Hz motor has to have more iron in the core because of the lower Hz but that doesn't hurt when you run it at 60 Hz. Going the other way is more of a problem.

A 50 Hz induction motor run at 60 Hz will run faster. A 2 pole 50 Hz motor run at 60 Hz will run about 3450 RPM. At 50 Hz it will run about 2875 RPM.

On airplanes, for example in WWII, they used 400 Hz motors because they were much lighter (didn't require as much iron in the core).

Mike

Mike Henderson

10-10-2021, 1:36 PM

Rod
Why the 208vac, 3 phase for a house. Electric heat or ? Would have to be a sizeable load as locally here the Electric company will keep you on single phase up to 600 amp before they will talk about 3 phase even if three phase runs right past your property
Ron

I assume this is similar to what's done in Europe. They bring three phase power into the area and use three transformers to step the voltage down. The secondary is configured in a Y, with 208 volts from line-to-line and 120 volts from line to center. The center is grounded for safety.

In Europe they provide residential power that way, but the line-to-line voltage on the secondary is 385 volts and the line-to-center is 220 volts. The center is grounded for safety so only one wire of the 220 volts is "hot" to ground.

But I suppose that's not what you really asked.

Mike

Bill Conerly

10-10-2021, 3:11 PM

I'm curious: will you have this shipped from Europe to Canada? Isn't that a big issue even before getting the juice right?

Rod Sheridan

10-10-2021, 6:32 PM

Huge house, about 25,000 square feet plus a hobby shop.

Backup is a 100Kw Cat diesel with hospital grade silencing, he has lots of money….Rod

Ron Selzer

10-10-2021, 6:39 PM

Huge house, about 25,000 square feet plus a hobby shop.

Backup is a 100Kw Cat diesel with hospital grade silencing, he has lots of money….Rod

Thanks Rod & Mike

Ron Selzer

10-10-2021, 6:47 PM

Actually, running a 50 Hz motor at 60Hz is not a bad thing. A 50 Hz motor has to have more iron in the core because of the lower Hz but that doesn't hurt when you run it at 60 Hz. Going the other way is more of a problem.

A 50 Hz induction motor run at 60 Hz will run faster. A 2 pole 50 Hz motor run at 60 Hz will run about 3450 RPM. At 50 Hz it will run about 2875 RPM.

On airplanes, for example in WWII, they used 400 Hz motors because they were much lighter (didn't require as much iron in the core).

Mike

Mike
I am been seeing VFD's advertised that will go to 120hz. Wondered about over speeding 60hz motors but never looked farther into this.
Getting ready to put a VFD on a 18" bandsaw so I can run it on single phase power. (Planed on using a rotary phase converter but ordered and paid for 2 months ago and still not here and no answer to emails.) Would I be able to change drive pulley to slow down the saw then use the VFD to increase the HZ to bring back to original speed when cutting thin stock and slow down to 60 hz when resawing to have more power available to cut with? Also would this work to make the saw capable of cutting metal?
thanks
Ron

Mike Henderson

10-10-2021, 10:17 PM

Mike
I am been seeing VFD's advertised that will go to 120hz. Wondered about over speeding 60hz motors but never looked farther into this.
Getting ready to put a VFD on a 18" bandsaw so I can run it on single phase power. (Planed on using a rotary phase converter but ordered and paid for 2 months ago and still not here and no answer to emails.) Would I be able to change drive pulley to slow down the saw then use the VFD to increase the HZ to bring back to original speed when cutting thin stock and slow down to 60 hz when resawing to have more power available to cut with? Also would this work to make the saw capable of cutting metal?
thanks
Ron

I don't think I can answer all your questions. When you put a VFD on an Induction motor, and slow it down, the torque generally remains constant. But since HP is torque times RPM times a constant, as you slow down an induction motor, the horsepower decreases. The motor will have a fan for cooling and the volume of air moved is directly related to the RPM. So at 30 Hz (half RPM), the volume of air moved will be half the volume at 60 Hz. But if the motor is getting hot in your application you can put an external fan blowing on the motor.

When you overspeed an induction motor, the torque decreases (above the rated Hz) but the horsepower tends to remain constant. So over-speeding by raising the Hz beyond 60 on a 60 Hz motor will not get you any additional power.

When you under-speed the motor, you will lose some power - the motor will not have nameplate horsepower any more.

A VFD is an excellent way to modify the speed of an Induction motor but you have to understand what's going on to use it properly.

If you need full horsepower at a lower RPM, the best way is to use pullies to slow down the blade. When you use pullies to slow down the RPM, the torque at the work pully is increased sufficiently to keep the rated horsepower. (HP is torque times RPM times a constant)

Remember that torque is just a measure of force and horsepower is a measure of work. How much you can do is dependent on the horsepower, not the torque.

Mike

Mike Henderson

10-10-2021, 10:41 PM

The HP = torque x RPM x a constant explains why induction motors stall so quickly.

As you load an induction motor, it will eventually slow down. As it slows down the torque generally remains constant but the HP decreases. Since there's not as much HP the tool will not be able to keep doing the work and the motor slows down more. This happens very rapidly and the motor stalls.

On old Unisaw table saws, they put in a very small induction motor - maybe 1HP - but used a repulsion/induction motor instead of a plain induction motor. The 1HP induction motor would stall very easily but as it began it's death spiral, the repulsion portion would cut in and provide additional power to keep it turning. You couldn't keep cutting at that RPM - the motor would burn out if you did - but it allowed the operator to recover - to pull the work back and allow the motor to get back up to speed, then push the work back into the blade as a slower speed. Note: the repulsion portion increased the HP but required additional current (more power in to get more power out) and the motor would overheat at that current level.

Could you do more than 1HP of work on one of those old Unisaws? No, it's still just a 1HP motor but it improved the operator experience.

Once you had larger motors the repulsion part of the motor was not of much use, and it added cost to the motor and required maintenance (brushes).

Mike

[In actual motors, the motor doesn't stall as soon as it reaches the nameplate HP. It will actually supply a bit more than nameplate HP (service factor) but at increased current, which will overheat the motor if the loading is continuous. Some slight overloading and overheating , say 10 degrees C, will just decrease the life of the motor. More than that can cause the motor to smoke and completely fail.]

Ron Selzer

10-10-2021, 10:43 PM

Thanks Mike
I originally wanted to just use a Rotary Phase Converter, however can't seem to get the control panel that I paid for.
Have been advised to buy a VFD to power up and supply 3 phase power and was also told that I could speed up and slow down the saw to make it handier to use. Just getting into resawing once I get this bandsaw working.
I first worked on/with VFDs in 1990 and was trained on setting them up and operating them, 250hp driving 2 125hp motors for HVAC fans. Since then have hooked controls up to VFD's in HVAC applications and have changed out VFD's and installed a few new ones even.
HOWEVER what is available now is totally different than what I trained on, and I just have not taken the time to really understand what can be done with one outside of driving a fan or pump.
Let alone this single phase to three phase conversion and overspeeding to 120hz
Ron

Erez Perelman

10-11-2021, 1:31 AM

What are your thoughts on a rotary converter?
Someone recommended it as a more cost effective and reliable way to get the 3 phase...

Erez Perelman

10-11-2021, 2:22 AM

I'm actually shipping from Israel to Canada.
I'm a professional guitar maker and have my tonewood hord and specialized tools that would take a decade to replace...
So I need to figure out how to ship everything and also get the tools with different electrical requirements to work.
I know the tonewoods will be a nightmare legistically to deal with, but I've done it before.
Would appreciate any advice as far as that goes as well albeit its not part of the initial thread topic..

Jim Becker

10-11-2021, 8:31 AM

Erez, given your latest information, personally, there's no way I'd ship that big bandsaw. I'd sell it and buy a replacement here in North America. Bandsaws are not unique tools. I'm not sure what you use the other mentioned tool for but it would be a candidate for replacement, too.

You are correct that there may be some "fun" with some of the material that may be in your lumber inventory; specifically species that were obtained before certain regulation kicked in globally. I hope you are able to get that sorted out without too much pain...music instrument makers get caught up in this a lot based on what I've read.

Malcolm McLeod

10-11-2021, 10:11 AM

...
I am been seeing VFD's advertised that will go to 120hz. ...

Some VFDs are able to drive outputs up to 400Hz. See Mr. Henderson's caveats on Hp/Torque/RPM. Also, consider the impact of such high RPM on motor bearings - or other components in a given drive train (idler shaft/gears/belts/spindles/tooling).

Tom Bender

10-11-2021, 7:38 PM

As a rule I would not overspeed any motor. The windings, bearings, etc may fail at 60/50 design rpm and surely will at 120 hz. It's like putting nitrous in your car, the prognosis is not good.

Erez Perelman

10-12-2021, 2:09 AM

I see yoru point Jim, but if I'm already getting a container and dealing with shipping, its not that much overhead to bring the saw with me... As long as it works when i get there;)

Jim Becker

10-12-2021, 9:19 AM

Yes, if you have a whole container, then I doubt bringing the "beasts" will impact your shipping costs negatively. Getting back to the basics, I'd probably try to find a way to replace the motor; even if it stays three phase due to horsepower requirements, a 240v 60 hz three phase motor is going to be a lot easier to power up with simplicity than having to deal with the combination of three phase power source from 240v single phase, 50hz vs 60 hz and a transformer to deal with the 400v requirement of the existing motor(s). Pick your poison!

BTW, look forward to seeing your work here at SMC. There is a dedicated musical instruments forum discussion area as well as other applicable discussion areas.

Erik Loza

10-12-2021, 10:15 AM

Late to the conversation but since Hammer does offer the N4400 in 1-phase, Felder theoretically "could" just sell you the appropriate new motor and other electrical parts (though it would probably take forever to get them) but I agree with Jim: What is your time worth? Won't you have other things to focus on? The N4400 is not an expensive bandsaw. If it were me, I would pull off whatever jigs or mods you have, sell that machine locally, then just purchase a new one in single-phase. It would have the appropriate CSA-certified electrical box, too. Just my 2-cents, which is likely worth half that.

Erik

Doug Garson

10-12-2021, 12:49 PM

Just a thought, there is a Canadian woodworking forum that several of us here also belong to, might be worth posting your question there also to get their perspective. Can't post a link but easy to find.

Erez Perelman

10-13-2021, 1:39 AM

Thanks guys- all the feedback is really good.
The bandsaw is really just a sidekick to my beast dust collector. I know it will be easily replaceable (nevermind the $1000 of specialty blades), but really what I need to get to work at the end is the dust collector that is 3 phase 400V.. I spent months modifying the machine to get it to my needs (I'd love to get into that some other time). So if I find a simple solution for the bandsaw it will hopefully be the same for the dust collector.
I guess I am still confused about the VFD solution since it can provide 3 phase from 1 phase and solve 60Hz -> 50Hz, but it won't boost the Voltage from 220 to 400 V. I am no expert and just looked on amazon and didn't find any VFD That would increase the voltage- or any transformers that would boost it either 220-> 400v...
Can someone give me the setup it would require with VFDs/transformers that would not require any modification on end machine (except basic motor rewiring).

and regarding my work- I make classical and flamenco guitars. I don't think links work here but you can search my name and see it all over:)

Warren Lake

10-13-2021, 3:02 AM

I went with a roto with my first larger 10 HP machine. Had never heard of VFD or even Rotos way back. Years later found out one of the two German cabinetmakers i knew the best had a roto and had rewired his motors in one machine from 575 to 240. Took a look at your photo gallery, you do beautiful work.

Rod or one of a number of smart guys will answer you about the VFD. I think what you said is accurate then you need a transformer, smaller ones are not too expensive. They come up at auctions as well.

Mike King

10-13-2021, 8:11 AM

Erez, your issue is well beyond what I've dealt with, but I do have a couple of suggestions for you. First is to ask your questions on the Felder Owners Group (https://groups.io/g/felderownersgroup/topics); there are a number of folk who have dealt with buck transformers and three phase converters, although I don't know about the frequency issue. The second is to call Phase Perfect -- they offer phase converters to manufacture three phase power from single phase and they undoubtedly would be able to say whether their products might provide what you need.

BTW, looked at your work and it is amazing...

Mike

Mike King

10-13-2021, 8:14 AM

you might also contact @Jack Forsberg; he offers VFD's and has restored a variety of European old iron machines and he lives in Canada.

Greg Quenneville

10-13-2021, 8:32 AM

Once again, let me emphasise that your existing motor may already be dual voltage, 240 or 400 three phase. It depends on the wiring connections on the motor itself. All of the three phase motors I have seen under 5 hp have been dual voltage. There are six terminals in the motor wiring box and the orientation of the bridging strips determines the voltage requirements (called “star” or “ delta” connections)

If your motor can be connected for 240v then all you would need is a 240v single phase input VFD. No voltage step-up transformers.

Jim Becker

10-13-2021, 9:21 AM

I think that you'll find that transformers for 240v to 400v or similar, unlike VFDs, are not really something you'll find on places like Amazon. That's an industrial type product.

Frank Pratt

10-13-2021, 9:49 AM

I think that you'll find that transformers for 240v to 400v or similar, unlike VFDs, are not really something you'll find on places like Amazon. That's an industrial type product.

And as far as I know, none of the manufacturers keep them in stock because there is so little demand for them. It will have to be made to order and expect to pay lots for one.

John Lifer

10-13-2021, 10:05 AM

But would a vfd at 240v (or 120v if you can find one that would deliver 3HP) work when wired to a step up transformer 240V back to the 400v of the motor?
I'm assuming so..... But those transformers aren't cheap and you would have to have one each for the two machines as they would be fed from individual VFDs.
And you are mistaken that you can find a new or even used VFD at 3HP for $100 that is working. Most that size are twice or more. I'd expect you are looking at $300 to $500 per machine for the vfd and transformer and that is used prices.
either sell the machines where the sit, or buy new motors that you can power off the line.