Acceptable Bandsaw blade front to back movement?

[Jeff Jurgrau]

Hello I am new to the forum and I am also new to Bandsaws. Without all the long boring details I will do my best to keep this short
I purchased a Grizzly G0640X 17" Wood / Metal saw in June it arrived laying down instead of standing up which is a bad thing. The replacement saw arrived last week and looks like it had fallen over during shipping due to the damage to the crate. It was left out in the middle of our road without any scheduling or notice of delivery. So I now have both saws in my shop and while using a dial indicator with the tip on the opposite side of the 1/2" wood blade from the teeth so I am reading front to back movement here. The first saw is .013 and the second saw is .011 I switched blades between the machines and one machine went up .001 and one went down .001. Since the first saw arrived we were sent new tires , a new upper wheel. a Coplanar tool was made and used and still the blade moves front to back without any noticeable change.
so I was pretty surprised when the second saw was turned on and it also moves front to back. Measurements were taken with all of the bearings backed off of the blade
on saw #1 I tried 4 different blades and none of them seemed to make it any better and I feel as if I have the blades properly tensioned and different tension levels were checked while the dial indicator was used and the measurement stayed the same. So what I am trying to figure out is do I have 2 bad saws with possible shipping damage or are these measurements typical front to back movement? I have spoken to every Grizzly tech support person and sent in videos and they all think something is not right. I called yesterday and asked them to go measure their machine runout and report back. Thank you

[Zachary Hoyt]

If the guide bearings are too close to the blade it can make it pulse forward and back up to 1/8" or so in my experience. I would back the side bearings away from the blade and try spinning the wheels by hand and see if the movement is still there.

[Mike Kees]

Are you using the POS blades that came with the saws ? First thing I would do would be to buy a quality blade before jumping to any conclusions. Very likely is just a bad weld in the blades.

[Andrew Hughes]

If it’s blade that came with the saw consider it junk.

[Richard Coers]

All fore and aft movement of a bandsaw blade is the result of the weld and not the machine. Band saw blades are not machine shop precision. If you demand higher quality, either make them yourself or buy high end blades. I'm not sure you will be happy with a bandsaw based on the 3 place decimal tolerances you expect. I haven't put an indicator on a bandsaw blade during my 49 years of woodworking.

[Jeff Jurgrau]

Thank you
All guide bearings are backed off
I am a novice to band saws want to make sure they are not damaged while in the return window since both came either laying down or with obvious tip over damage and every tech that watched the videos at grizzly think there is something wrong with the saw one tech said .003 should be acceptable another said .010 on a bad blade I did not measure the weld area itself or the reading was closer to .030 I purchased Lenox blades they also move front to back and they claim it’s not normal to move as much as they do in the videos I sent hoping to hear back from them on what they actually get a reading to be on their saws hoping I am chasing nothing and I have 2 good saws

[Richard Coers]

A more important measure of machine quality would be to put the indicator on the tires and on the faces of the wheels. Measuring the blade shows blade quality. Measuring the machine shows machine quality.

[Jeff Jurgrau]

Thank you Richard you seem very knowledgeable. I did take measurements with a dial indicator in several locations as instructed by Grizzly. They had me measure the inside of the groove of the wheels where the tires go as well as the outside of the wheels. I called right away when I started using this saw since I have never used a bandsaw before to see if that was normal and I sent them several videos and they feel it is not normal. The annoying thing is I purchased it from HD and I had to wait 3 months for them to get another one in stock which was delivered here last week left out in the road for a week. Since day one I have asked is this anything to worry about is this normal and they all think its not normal but after plugging in saw #2 it seems to be the same as saw #1 so what are the chances of both saws being screwed up? .002 apart from each other? they do have big signs to keep the crate upright and #1 came laying down and #2 the crate is all busted up so I am concerned. If you have the time I would really appreciate it if you can watch this video I sent to them about a month ago its 5 min long but it shows the blade movement and the wheels spinning etc your input would be very helpful to me as I am at our weekend home now with my skid loader that I brought up here to move this from the road to my garage and I can load my truck with it and bring 1 or both back to HD. The video is only of the saw I got in June thank you very much!

https://youtu.be/4YAyIogTfLs

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah, bad welds.

[Tom Trees]

Yeah, bad welds.

Could be, I would want to have a few differing brand blades just to be sure of everything.

One thing I'd check is for any vibration of the lower wheel without a blade installed.
Should the pulley not be aligned with the motor.
Seems the lower wheel is the only adjustable thing in terms of yaw, so it needs to be aligned with the top wheel,
and also the motor pulley.
Marc Spagnuolo mentioned something along the lines of a jig for this, but didn't go into much detail.

I found out it makes a handy tool for yaw adjustment, but one must do this with a loose belt, as if misaligned might damage the motor bearings
very quickly. DAMHIK
Obviously take measurements of everything before doing anything. tracking and jack screws.
You could try this method, as I haven't seen a video on yaw adjustment elsewhere.
https://youtu.be/VQ9dmP9yF8E

[Richard Coers]

The annoying thing is I purchased it from HD and I had to wait 3 months for them to get another one in stock which was delivered here last week left out in the road for a week. Since day one I have asked is this anything to worry about is this normal and they all think its not normal but after plugging in saw #2 it seems to be the same as saw #1 so what are the chances of both saws being screwed up? .002 apart from each other?

https://youtu.be/4YAyIogTfLs
It's very likely that 2 machines would be out of tolerance. They don't check every single one coming off the production line. There is nothing wrong with having a bandsaw on it's back. It's tipping over in transport that is bad. If the spine of a bandsaw is such that it can't take laying on it, it certainly won't take the load of tightening a blade on it either. The blade weld is definitely bad. The tire looks horrible on the wheel, but the wheel doesn't look that bad. How did you put that tire on the wheel? If the stretch wasn't equal it could be thinner in one place of the wheel than another, but it won't cause the blade to move fore and aft. Take off the blade and put in on the flatest surface you have. See how much light you can see around the weld. I am pretty knowledgeable, I've been using bandsaws for about 45 years.

[Jeff Jurgrau]

thank you for watching the video. I watched a video Grizzly made on putting the tires on I put it in hot water then used a few zip ties and stretched it on by hand and ran a screw driver under the tire all the way around the wheel. Their top tech guy personally installed a tire and sent me a new upper wheel and after installing that the movement appeared to increase so I put that wheel back on it. the second machine looks to wobble an equal amount to that machine in the video regarding the upper wheel and tire. I have an 8' 1/4" steel workbench top that is only a few months old so it should be nice and flat I think I did that already but honestly I have done so many things I forget now all the details I will do it again. that was my first thought was the welding the blade but all the blades have similar movement fore and aft. I am not exactly sure what happened between MO and WV but when you tell Grizzly they arrived on their side they say that can damage the machines easily and I should have refused the delivery. #1 arrived on its side not on its spine with no visible damage to the flimsy crate its packed in so I assume it was gently laid down. #2 the crate is missing pieces of wood at the top and it has several cracks in it so I assume it tipped over. The crates they ship these in are insufficient. I would attach photos but I do not see how to do that. From what I am interpreting my replies on this it sounds like both machines are good and I just need to pick 1 and send the other one back and I should be fine with either machine. I still need to setup machine #2 I think I would choose that one because everything is as it came from the factory instead of me replacing several parts and making a slight adjustment to the coplanar which I marked with a paint marker before adjusting it. Tom thank you for your input I think the word yaw is what I was taught was coplanar I am in the automotive industry and yaw means something else relating to how far the Vehcile leans the sensor may think its out of control. I am collecting wood working tools for when I retire I do not want to work on vehicles any longer

[Tom Trees]

Hello Jeff
I was using the term yaw in relation to the east west jacking screws, and the relation to the top wheel, which is easier measured when co planar,
as from all other guides I've seen, no attention is paid to the east west, so it's not only referring to the wheels being in line with the frame.
(Under blade tension, I hear the Italians mentioned that this is done with the max blade size)
There'd be no point in running an indicator if the wheels were out, as the blade will force them against each other.

I would definitely make sure it was different blades from different suppliers to rule out anything.
All the best
Tom

[Mike Kees]

Jeff just watched your video. I would remove the tires from one of your saws then install one of the better blades and see if that improves the movement issue. the reason I suggest this is I have read numerous threads here on Sawmill creek about the stock tires on Grizzly saws being junk. Most have reported a very big improvement when they installed after market Urethane tires on their saws.

[John TenEyck]

I agree, the upper tire looks bad or poorly installed. Correct whichever it is and check it again.

John

[Jeff Jurgrau]

Thank you to everyone for their input and watching the videos. Regarding the upper wheel and tires the first thing they did was sent another pair of tires which I installed which did not make a noticeable change. They also sent me an upper wheel with a tire installed on it which I felt made things a little worse so I put back on the original wheel.
the upper wheel simply bolts on to a fixed shaft with 1 bolt. Sadly I was setting up machine #2 last night and it wobbles just as much in my opinion where the tires are in the grooves of the wheels and when I change the RPMs at certain speeds the saw seems vibrate more than #2 so I will need to check the wheel balance which I did on #1. I am going to need to get it off the pallet and on concrete and compare to saw #1 I only have 1 plug end so I need to move it between machines. Since I had so many issues with the saw HD has really stepped up and at this point almost took off maybe 40% of the original price so I do not want to lose that I really want to make it work nicely. I have only cut one piece of wood with the saw just to make sure it a straight cut and it did a nice job. I have not tired with saw#2 yet
today I will make another video which will be of saw #2 it will not be as long as #1 hoping I can get some feedback on it regarding the wobble at the tires. I purchased this model of saw because it does wood and metal and has a variable speed inductive motor. I also do metal fabrication work. I do not need a top of the line machine as this will be for hobby use so I think it will be a good machine for my needs.

[Jeff Jurgrau]

Here is a video for saw#2

https://youtu.be/V7VKz5j0sas

[Tom Trees]

I would buy some blades to try on one of them, and take the table off the other saw and check the alignment of the wheels.
How does the lower wheel run without a blade installed, is the drive belt tight or loose?
Can you detect vibration when the machine is stopping, should you not be able to detect when running.
Can you sight down the belt whilst adjusting the lower wheel as it should become apparent when it is in line with the pulley.

The fact that the blade is moving, left and right as well as front to back, suggests either the wheels or the tires being out.
you have installed new tires on one, if so make sure one isn't back to front.
The first rule of machinery is to do all adjustments without damaging the machine, so beware of the belt being too tight especially if misaligned.

I would like to see Grizzly's coplanar tool.
I haven't seen many jigs for the application, but have spoke to a manufacturer before who said they use lasers for the job.

Edit: I think I found a similar process here on the Grizzly G0457 manual,on page 49
https://manualsdump.com/en/manuals/grizzly-g0457/274618/51

I didn't have success trying with a pair of blocks like that, so removed it and with that, the faff of sliding the top wheel in my case
was taken away from the equation. (since I have rounded edge flat tires)



Tom

[John TenEyck]

It looks like the upper wheel is not true in your second video. However, 0.011" front to back movement is not a big deal IMO as long as there is no large vibration associated with it. BS's aren't used when 0.001" accuracy is required. I'd personally be more concerned with runout side to side, not front to back, but a few 0.001's there is not critical either as long as there's no flutter.

The second saw looks perfectly acceptable to me, and if HD gave you a 40% rebate I'd count my blessings and call it a really good deal.

John

[Jeff Jurgrau]

thank you again. Well I put #2 on the concrete floor and ran it to 3600 RPM and the saw shakes allot I tried swapping the upper wheels and it made no difference
saw#1 runs very smooth at max RPM 3600 I am really disappointed and at this point will just keep #1 and deal with the small movement fore and aft

[glenn bradley]

which was delivered here last week left out in the road for a week.

When I read these stories I wonder how the last-mile delivery guys stay in business in these areas. Anyone who would drop a crate in the street and just leave needs to find another area of employment.

As others have mentioned, the factory blades are not much more than window dressing. Having a couple that are poorly made would not be surprising. With both machines being delivered by folks who seem to know little about doing such things my instinct would be to return them. You can chase 'traumatic impact' caused issues in a machine for along time before you give up. I would skip the effort but, that's me.

Call Grizzly and purchase direct making them well aware of your repeated problems. Sellers cannot fully control delivery streams but it would be good to make them aware. I would be tempted to pick up the machine at the freight terminal. That way if there is again any sign of "oops!" you can just refuse it right there. I'm sorry you are in an area that doesn't have qualified freight handlers. We read about a fair amount of that on here and it sometimes seems to be regional.

[Doug Garson]

Before you decide which machine to keep or whether to return both, have you done any test cuts to evaluate the saws performance? Sometimes the parameters measured, while out of spec, have no real impact on the quality of the cut. Based on your vibration comparison sounds like the first one is the only one to consider keeping.

[Richard Coers]

I won't go into details and won't state the company's name, but I bought a new bandsaw years ago with cast iron wheels. I sent it back after a couple of weeks of waiting for and replacing parts. Found a used MiniMax MM16 and didn't look back.

[Edward Weber]

All fore and aft movement of a bandsaw blade is the result of the weld and not the machine. Band saw blades are not machine shop precision. If you demand higher quality, either make them yourself or buy high end blades. I'm not sure you will be happy with a bandsaw based on the 3 place decimal tolerances you expect. I haven't put an indicator on a bandsaw blade during my 49 years of woodworking.


Agreed
If it really bothers you, you can go get one of those little sharpening stones to smooth out the back edges and you'll be fine.
https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/bladeroundingstone.aspx

[Jeff Jurgrau]

Thank you yes I did make a test cut back in June with saw #1 and it did a nice job I only cut a scrap 2x6 I have not tired to re saw anything
The delivery companies ruin things for sure. I purchased from HD because the saw was hundreds less than on than direct from Grizzly site and they offer free shipping
Estees picked up both saws directly from Grizzly in MO then they delivered to a terminal in MD where it transfers to the final mile residential deliveries
the first final mile company was great they called days in advance to schedule which day to deliver it and their driver called me when he was on his way. He also took the time to help me get it in the garage. He said it came off the Estees truck laying down Saw #2 was supposed to call to schedule a day buy they never did and the tracking was estimating another week before delivery. Last Friday I came to our weekend home only to discover they left it outside of our gate here in Rural WV we are on a mountain but there is plenty of room for large box trucks to turn around in our driveway. If they would have only Called me I would have been here the day it was delivered so being over 400# and about 300' down the slope of our driveway and I do not know anyone around here and being alone I just left it there and came back a week later and it was still there. I am still waiting for NSD to call me to schedule a pickup it has now been 8 days without a call from NSD. I came up Thursday with my skid loader and son to get it out of the road and into the garage as I do not want to find it was stolen. Took the time to unpack it and setup the saw only to find it vibrates allot so I tried calling HD several times today and their phone system must not be working it just drops the call every time while going through the prompts. So a warning to anyone purchasing this type of equipment from HD I waited three months for them to get the saw back in stock they will not ship one out from the MFR if its not in stock in their inventory even if the MFR has them in stock and the saw went up about 500.00 since the first one. It has truly been a pain in the butt and if I were to do it again I would just buy direct and pay the shipping costs because Estees who HD uses lays them down. HD Customer service has been very good as well as Grizzly tech support who can only ship out parts and not an entire saw since it was Purchased at HD. Its the delivery companies and HD Inventory polices that have created all the issues. Sorry for the rant. Thew fact that some of you have watched the videos and given opinions and advise which makes me feel more comfortable just keeping the first saw. I am going to post the video of machine #2 at 3600 RPM so you can see how much it vibrates and shakes for another piece of mind that sending it back is the best thing to do with #2 #1 runs smooth at 3600 RPM

[Jeff Jurgrau]

Here are the 2 machines running at max speed 3600 RPM if anyone would like to watch them



#1 3600 RPM https://youtu.be/1LFllxSmyT0


#2 3600 RPM https://youtu.be/wQ_T7WzkyjY