Which of these scrapers...?

[brad hays]

Getting ready to drop some $$ on my first set of wood turning tools and I've got everything figured out except my scraper. I'm primarily interested in turning bowls and could use some advice on which one of these three I should get.


In order, the below pictures are:


1) Hurricane M2 Cryo 1" (x3/8") Heavy Duty Bowl Finishing Scraper....$114
2) Hurricane M42 Cryo 3/4" Bowl Finishing Scraper .......................................$82
3) Hurricane M2 Cryo 1" Round Nose Scraper .................................................. ..$76


At first I was thinking of getting the cheaper 1" round nose and grind / sharpen so that it has the profile of a bowl scraper. Is it ok to do this, or should I go for one of the other tools that are actual bowl scrapers? And if so, what's the advantage / functionality of the heavy duty scraper vs. the smaller 3/4" one?

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[John Keeton]

IMO none of the above. I own one high end scraper - a Thompson. However, while it is excellent my scrapers get only a fraction of the mileage my gouges get. The cheaper M2 steel in Benjamin Best tools is fine for scrapers. Use your money to buy quality gouges. Or, you are welcome to make the 30 minute drive over to Winchester and try mine and decide for yourself.

[roger wiegand]

I too love Doug Thompson's tools. Whether they, or any other scraper, is worth that much to you probably depends on how, and how much, you use them. Having some serious thickness to them 5/16 or 3/8" is important to me, adding stability and resistance to chatter as well as letting you grind a NRS profile with about any angles you might like. I have some older lighter weight scrapers and I have trouble getting as smooth a cut with them.

[Reed Gray]

Well, being an oddball of several sorts, my scrapers get a lot of use when turning bowls, at least as much as my gouges. Look up my videos on shear scraping and 'Scary Scrapers'. I don't like anything wider than 1 inch, and thicker than 5/16 inch. Just don't need that much metal, even on my big lathes.

robo hippy

[Bernie Kopfer]

If you are sure you want a scraper I would recommend getting the Easy Wood finishing tool. The round carbide tip will work as well or better than a regular scraper and sharpening is virtually eliminated. It is a very versatile tool. I suggest the professional level finisher because of it’s extra length.

[John K Jordan]

I've reground most of my conventional scrapers into NRS (negative rake scrapers) which I find wonderful for cleaning up inside, outside, and bottoms. Conventional scrapers can be harder to control and more aggressive, especially as they get wider, and they will either take off a lot of material or let you make fine shear cuts, but the I thing the NRS profile is easier to use, works better, and almost impossible to catch. Doesn't remove much material though.

My favorite three for bowls and platters and such view from the side and view from the edge. Sharpened to about a 60 deg included angle.

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One in use. These are held horizontally and flat on the tool rest.

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Conventional scrapers have to be held with the back end of the handle slightly raised to work correctly and prevent a catch. This can make using certain grind shapes more challenging to use on certain turned geometries.

BTW, both types of scrapers need to have a burr to work. Some use the burr from the grinder, works well but for only a short time. Others, including me, hone off the grinder burr and burnish a burr. I thing this works better and lasts longer.

JKJ

[David Walser]

Brad -- Allow me to try to address your questions, both stated and unstated. First, If I were buying just one of those three scrapers, I would get the round nosed scraper and KEEP that profile. A round nose scraper is more versatile than the other profile you're considering. A round nose scraper can be used both inside and outside of a bowl. It can be used moving from left to right or right to left. (You can cut with the left or the right side of the tool.) The other profile pretty much forces you to cut with just the left edge of the tool, which makes it better for the inside of a bowl, but not as good for the outside. (Some tool makers sell a mirror image of the 'bowl scraper' for use on the outside of bowls.) So, as I said, for bowl turning, I'd rather have just one round nose scraper than just one 'bowl scraper'. Ideally, I'd have several of each! You can't have too many tools, right?

Second, generally, a thicker scraper is 'better' than a thinner one of the same profile -- provided the extra thickness doesn't prevent the scraper from fitting. For example, I have a 'heavy duty box scraper'. The problem with the scraper is it doesn't fit inside most of the boxes I turn. That shouldn't be a problem when turning a bowl. Why is thicker, rather than wider, better? Thicker allows the scraper to extend farther over the tool rest without vibration. (Wider doesn't produce this same advantage.) However, with scraping, you should be taking very light cuts (unless, like Reed Gray, you're hogging out a bowl with a scraper), so vibration shouldn't be that much of an issue. Bottom line: A standard thickness scraper will work in 99+% of most bowl turning situations. A heavy duty scraper will provide a meaningful advantage in less than on percent of situations. I'd go with a regular thickness scraper until I had enough experience to know whether I might be able to use the limited benefits provided by a heavy duty thickness scraper.

Third, wider isn't always better. With a wide scraper, it's easy to take too big a bite -- leading to a catch. If the radius of a wide scraper is consistent along the length of its cutting edge, you can use the full width (by changing the narrow portion of the tip engaging the wood) before needing to go back to the grinder for a fresh edge. A bowl scraper doesn't have a consistent radius, so you'll just be using the one small segment of the edge that 'fits' the curve of your bowl -- but you'll be resharpening the entire edge. This takes more time and wastes metal. Again, I'd go with the 3/4" scraper until I knew I wanted something wider.

Finally, you might not even need a scraper for turning bowls. You might find that you really like using a scraper to refine a curve or to remove tool marks, but many turners turn great bowls without using a scraper on most of their bowls. This is purely a question of personal preference. Generally, if I scrape on a bowl, I use my bowl gouge for that purpose. Why? Because the bowl gouge is already in my hand. I have plenty of scrapers, but I almost never use them on bowls. They get lots of work when I'm turning resin.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Generally, if I scrape on a bowl, I use my bowl gouge for that purpose.

Just wondering how you "scrape" on the inside of a bowl with a bowl gouge.
Personally I have been searching and searching for the magic bullet that can do the bottom of bowls. Currently using Negative Rake Scrapers. Tried fluteless gouges, bottom of the bowl grind, traditional scrapers and have not yet found that magic bullet....... Fluteless is essentially a scraper(?). That does work pretty good. Wondering (Just thought of it) if I could make that into a NR grind.......

For the OP, my $0.02 is along most people's opinions. Go big (Thompson) or go cheap. I have a Benjamin's Best bowl scraper set. I like them. While not great they don't get that much use. Spend you hard earned dollars on that Thompson. I like my Thompson. I use it a lot. Can't have too many tools........

[David Walser]

You caught me. I don't scrape the inside of a bowl (except, perhaps, the first inch of depth) with a bowl gouge. But then, if I do scrape while turning a bowl, it's generally on the outside, not the inside. Again, on the outside, it's almost always with my bowl gouge. However, I've also used dedicated scrapers on the outside. I've even used my skew as a negative rake scraper.

[John K Jordan]

...
Personally I have been searching and searching for the magic bullet that can do the bottom of bowls....

My magic bullet works every time. I've had more than one turner examine my bowls and platters, turning this way and that in the light and remark on the lack of ripples, divot, or little hump in the center.

I started using this method off the lathe after noticing some concentric ripples in a cherry piece that were not visible until I took the oil-finished platter off the lathe and examined it under good overhead lighting. I was so disgusted I was about to throw it in the trash when I decided to try cutting through the finish and cleaning up the center wi. Worked well and the repair was invisible after applying more of the oil finish.

I use an NRS shown earlier in this thread while the lathe is running and get the surface as perfect as I can. My NRS design has a flat on the end good for the bottom close to the center. Then I stop the lathe and clean up the bottom with a hand scraper. It's amazing how little time it takes to get a bobbled bottom, inside or out, perfect. I usually use one of these hand scrapers, the exact one depends on the wood. The card scrapers are sharpened more or less like a furniture maker would. I raise a burr with a burnisher.

I generally scrape with the grain or at some angle to the grain, whatever works best. For a long time I did this with the piece mounted on the lathe with the motor turned off but it's a LOT easier on the back and neck to mount the piece, still in the chuck, to a carving and finishing post. And easier to see as well. I apply naphtha when working to make remaining defects visible.

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This one was an experiment to see if I could get out fairly rough gouge marks with just the hand scrapers without cleaning up first with the NRS.

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I actually hand scrape the entire surface of these little platters, not just the center, and can usually start with 400grit paper afterwards, sometimes 320, always by hand or with a gentle 2 or 3" ROS running a a very low speed. The one from eastern red cedar needed only 600grit on a soft sanding block. No power sanding.

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JKJ

[Reed Gray]

The best finish cuts on the bottom of a bowl are with a gouge, which generally leaves a cleaner cut surface. The difficult part of going across the bottom is keeping a consistent angle on your tool. If you are getting ripples, then your steering wheel is loose. I do have one video dedicated to that topic. When all else fails, this is where a standard scraper or NRS comes in really handy. They are excellent for very gently sweeping across the bottom of a bowl to smooth out those ripples. They also leave a good surface. If you are sweep cutting across the grain, you get a fairly smooth surface. As soon as you start coming up the side of a bowl, you are cutting unsupported grain/fiber, and you will get tear out. This is where, most of the time, I will shear scrape rather than standard or NRS scrape. The shear/sheer angle cuts better because at an angle, it is easier for the cutting edge to get under the fibers and gently lift them off rather than scraping cut them off. I get pretty much the same results with a NRS. With harder woods, you get cleaner surfaces with the NRS or shear scrape. With softer woods, you generally get coarser cuts with more tear out. Recently I have been turning some big leaf maple where I am getting tear out in 1 quadrant only, where standard is to get the tear out in 2 quadrants. Just because I guess.....

As for scraping the inside of a bowl with a gouge, I see it frequently. Most of the time in the center part of the bowl which is turning so slowly. The wing is at 90 degrees to the rotation of the wood. The bevel may be rubbing, but wing is doing the bulk of the cutting and it is at a scraping angle. The other way I have seen gouges used for 'scraping' the inside of a bowl is frequently done with a swept back gouge. I have heard this cut called a 'shear' scrape often, but there is no shear angle to it at all since the gouge is held level. Best guess is that the wing is working more like a NRS than a standard scraper.

robo hippy

[brad hays]

I swear I have gone to make a thread entry here twice, wrote a lot out and after just switching browser tabs came back to see everything I'd put down was gone. Ugg frustrating. Maybe a blessing in disguise as I've got more info now on which to base follow up questions. Strange though cause this is the only forum I've seen this happen in. Oh well, lesson learned.

Thanks so much everybody for taking the time to offer your advice. For some reason I'm not able to access pictures in any thread. When I click it says you don't have permission so not sure what's up with that. I'm getting the jist of everything nonetheless.

John K. thanks so much for your offer for some hands on. I've looked for a turner's club here in Lex but far as I can tell the closest one is in Louisville. I'm def in need of some instruction time so I'll keep your offer in mind. Do you know of any local groups that I've missed by chance?

Reed thanks so much for your videos. Your scarry scrapers video was linked to on another board and I'll be watching it soon as I get done with responding. Very much looking forward to it.

Bernie, I'd say you're right. If I'm considering spending that much on a scraper might as well add a little more and get that Easy Finisher. I believe Jim Sprague talks about using one in his videos.

John K...by burnishing a burr do you mean using a card/scraper like I've seen in some videos? I looked those up on Amazon and found grits anywhere between 600-2000. What grit is best for creating a burr on a scraper?

General followup: I wrote Doug of Thompson Tools and he explained he uses steel w/ 10% Vandium v. Hurricane M2 Cryo's 2%, so that pretty much settles it. Any opinion on Thompson's steel vs. D-Way?

[John Keeton]

Brad, only contributors can view pics or access certain forums like Classified - $6 per year. Both Doug’s V10 and D-Way’s M42 Cobalt are excellent steels, though they have different characteristics depending on the wood turned. There are charts on the web that discuss those characteristics, but it is impossible to plan for those conditions as one doesn’t know about a piece of wood until it is worked and the differences are subtle. I have tools of both brands. IMO, there are other factors to consider when choosing between them that are more important.

There is a club in Lexington - Bluegrass Area Woodturners. Lannie Sproul is the contact. You can’t send a private message as a non-contributor or I would share his phone number. My offer to visit still stands.

[Reed Gray]

The only real difference in edge holding and sharpness, between V10 and M42, that I can note is that some prefer one, and others prefer the other. I can tell no difference, and have a number of tools from both. I do think having CBN grinding wheels does help with the sharpening, but mostly because they tend to take off less metal each time you sharpen.

robo hippy

[brad hays]

Holy cow John I don't know what to say. Just looked at your homepage and your work is awesome. So glad you've spoken up to help me along. I just found Andy Cole in Hawaii and was heartbroken to learn he's so far away. Not only that but his yearly class in Indianapolis has been put off until 2023. I'm continually amazed by the caliber of people I'm meeting on the woodworking boards I'm on, and again, here I sit just awestruck. Ok I should stop all this yammering. Glad you're here, glad I'M here, thanks for the instruction, and I'll definitely be signing up to be a contributor here on the forum.

Thanks again too robo. I think the very next thing I'll spend money on upgrade wise will be a CBN wheel. I'll probably get the 600 grit 8" Mega Square from Woodturners Wonders and keep my 60 grit Aluminum Oxide on the other side.

[Kevin Jenness]

I have made good use of John K Jordan's advice about negative rake scrapers and scraping the stationary bowl with small hand-held scrapers. He also led me to get a thick scraper from Stewart Macdonald which is quite nice. It's easy to grind standard card scrapers to any curve needed and put a hook on with a burnisher.

A great advantage of scraping and sanding a stationary turning is that the stock removal can take place exactly where needed. When cleaning up a rough surface that is rotating, more material is removed from side grain areas whereas the worst problems (tearout) are usually in the transition areas between side and end grain. That can lead to the work getting out of round and the process taking longer than if the local problems are smoothed and faired into the surrounding areas. I don't do that much sanding with the piece turning except when getting into corners, beads and the like. I do use scrapers while turning to fair the overall shape if I can't quite get there with a gouge.

[John K Jordan]

....

A great advantage of scraping and sanding a stationary turning is that the stock removal can take place exactly where needed. When cleaning up a rough surface that is rotating, more material is removed from side grain areas whereas the worst problems (tearout) are usually in the transition areas between side and end grain.

I'm so glad this is working for you!! I've had feedback from some others with similar success. Another huge advantage to me is working this way doesn't create the clouds of dust I got with a rotating disk when the lathe is spinning! My particle count meter testifies to this, there is not fine dust settling all over the shop, and my lungs are happier.

And the scraping and sanding "exactly where needed" is a huge help if there is any detail in the piece such as carefully cut beads, sharp corners at the rim or base, or decorative v-grooves. Besides selectively "dishing" softer areas of the wood, rotating disks are notorious for rounding over things and softening detail. With the hand scrapers followed by light sanding by hand with fine paper I can easily preserve the detail.

I probably posted this before, but some might be interested. When sanding by hand I almost always use what I call a soft sanding block.

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It's simply a soft rubber eraser with the sandpaper wrapped around. Conforms nicely to curves. I use the white "Magic Rub" erasers or clones I bought at the dollar store, four for a dollar I think. I often cut them into narrower pieces, sometimes with angles on the ends to help get into tight places.

After the NRS and the hand scrapers, I can often start with 400 grit sandpaper, a little coarser for stubborn tearout or deeper scratches. I do use bright "point source" lights set for glancing across the surface to help me see any defect that need attention. To me, broad, diffuse lighting such as from a bunch of fluorescents high overhead is the worse possible light at the lathe. Not only does diffuse light hide scratches but it makes it difficult to judge effective the compound curved surfaces we are fond of making. Going to directed, glancing lights made a huge improvement in the quality of the shapes of some of my pieces.

Some lights at the lathe:
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I do have high fluorescent lights above the lathes but they are on separate switches and turned on when needed.

I also like to wipe the surface with naphtha after sanding which dries quickly and leaves no residue. As the surface dries, there are a few seconds where any remaining scratches are highlighted while the damp naphtha is still in the scratch. (The naphtha also gives me a preview of what the wood will look like when oil is applied!)
I do sometimes wet sand with oil, usually with 600 Indasa Redline Rhynowet wet/dry paper, my absolute favorite for papers from 600 and finer.

JKJ

[Allen Mattsen]

If you are sure you want a scraper I would recommend getting the Easy Wood finishing tool. The round carbide tip will work as well or better than a regular scraper and sharpening is virtually eliminated. It is a very versatile tool. I suggest the professional level finisher because of it’s extra length.

I have this tool and though when fitted with a negative rake cutter it works great for resin or resin/wood projects, I've found that I much prefer my D-Way large NRS to this tool for wooden bowls, etc. Much cleaner surface and less prone to vibration or catches.

[brad hays]

Hey John. I joined up to become a supporter and tried to do a search for Lannie Sproul but so far I've come up short. I did an advanced search for his name, unchecking the box that says 'exact match' but nothing showed. Also did a google search. Is there another way to look up members here?

[John K Jordan]

Hey John. I joined up to become a supporter and tried to do a search for Lannie Sproul but so far I've come up short. I did an advanced search for his name, unchecking the box that says 'exact match' but nothing showed. Also did a google search. Is there another way to look up members here?

Hi Brad.

I don't remember a Lannie Sproul. Do you know anything else about him, location, etc? Is he a wood turner? I found 11 Sprouls using the member search, some with different spellings, none with first name of Lannie. I assume you suspect he is a member here. Could be be using a different name?

I don't know of a better way to search for members but someone might. A general member search question might be best asked in the Forum Tech Support area. https://sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?7-Forum-Tech-Support

[Timothy Thorpe Allen]

JKJ, Brad was responding to John Keeton:


There is a club in Lexington - Bluegrass Area Woodturners. Lannie Sproul is the contact. You can’t send a private message as a non-contributor or I would share his phone number. My offer to visit still stands.

Brad, Lannie might not be a member here at Sawmill Creek -- you should message John Keeton to get Lannie's contact information.

[brad hays]

Hey John, sorry I probably should have messaged John Keeton like Tim mentioned. Thanks for helping though.

No problem. A question posted is a question, regardless for who it was intended. Hope you find the person. And thanks for signing up and contributing! If all this were to go away due to lack of funding a bit of the joy of life would go away!