Boy-I sure hope I made the right BS decision!

[Bob Winkler]

Well, just got back from the Springfield show after wearing out my shoes going from the Laguna booth to the MiniMax booth. I sure wish they didn't put them on opposite ends of the show:( .

After lots of talking, listening, and eavesdropping, I ended up with the MM16. Both the MM16 and the L16HD seemed like great machines, and the decision was very hard to make.

I hope you guys aren't gonna tell me I messed up after all that agonizing:eek: .

Bob

[Bernie Weishapl]

Bob congrats on the saw. I don't think you could go wrong with either. Use it and enjoy.

[Michael Ballent]

Boy oh boy I know that you messed up the ship to address for sure!!! Sending that BS to Conneticut was a mistake... Give them a call before it ships and I will be nice enough to store it for you in my shop :D Why would you want to subject that fine piece of machinery to that weather ;)

You done good :D


Well, just got back from the Springfield show after wearing out my shoes going from the Laguna booth to the MiniMax booth. I sure wish they didn't put them on opposite ends of the show:( .

After lots of talking, listening, and eavesdropping, I ended up with the MM16. Both the MM16 and the L16HD seemed like great machines, and the decision was very hard to make.

I hope you guys aren't gonna tell me I messed up after all that agonizing:eek: .

Bob

[John Bailey]

Bob,

With those two as choices, I don't think you could mess up. I've heard nothing but praise for both. The choice seems to be just personal preference. Congratulations, I'm sure you'll love it. Of course, as always, it didn't happen until we see pictures.

John

[Gary Herrmann]

As John mentioned, you would have been fine with either one. I have an MM16 and have been extremely pleased with it.

[Bruce Page]

Ditto what Gary said. They're both great machines.
I'm still very pleased with my MM16

[Paul B. Cresti]

That would have been a tough decision for me too ........... oh ok I lie just a weeeee bit ;) Good luck and welcome to the MM family.

[Mark Singer]

Bob,
You done good! Great choice!

[Doug Shepard]

Relax - the pain from that big deep bite you're feeling in your wallet will go away as soon as you hit the power switch. The MM16 is one sweet machine.

[Cecil Arnold]

Don't think you could make a bad decision with those choices, but you made the better one. Congratulations.

[Corvin Alstot]

As a MM20 owner I welcome you to the family. I think you really had no
bad choices. The MM16 will slice thru everything you throw at it.
Post a pic when you get it home.

[Richard Wolf]

I'll go against the grain. You made a big mistake.


You should have went for the MM20.

Richard

[Dan Racette]

Mine is also quite dashing. :cool:
Both were mine as well.
I sure it went through your head, back and forth, back and forth, aaaahhh!
kidding!
You really couldn't split a hair much finer.

Take good care of it! I'm sure it will serve you well.

[lou sansone]

you did good bob.

I have owned Laguna 24 and looked at the mm 16 pretty close. Both are real decent saws ( although it is not apples to apples with the 24 and 16 series of saws) . the mm has the stouter frame it seems than the Laguna. It was nice that you could do a side by side comparison. I am sure that you could offer some "first impressions" for the community that pushed you in the mm corner.

I think one thing that makes a real difference is the blade you put on it. Personally I like the timber wolf series of blades.

best wishes with that new saw.

Lou

[Mike Cutler]

Well Bob, I think ya' made a poor choice there. So poor that I will travel the 50 miles, remove said offensive machine, and give you a chance to do a "do over". I feel so bad that I won't even ask you to help me load it.:eek: ;).
All kidding aside. It's a great machine, either of those choices would be a great machine. That would be a really hard decision to make at a show. I would have needed a few pints, and still would have flipped a coin, and done paper, rock ,scissors a few times.:D

[Dev Emch]

you did good bob.

I have owned Laguna 24 and looked at the mm 16 pretty close. Both are real decent saws ( although it is not apples to apples with the 24 and 16 series of saws) . the mm has the stouter frame it seems than the Laguna. It was nice that you could do a side by side comparison. I am sure that you could offer some "first impressions" for the community that pushed you in the mm corner.

I think one thing that makes a real difference is the blade you put on it. Personally I like the timber wolf series of blades.

best wishes with that new saw.

Lou

Dito the blades. I also found the orange tires to be superior to the old rubber tires. We have extremely dry winters out here (and cyclic: Its freezing something cold one day with snow and the next day its 60 degrees and your shooting 18 on the greens). This really breaks down rubber bandsaw tires. The urathanes have held up and work like a charm.

Best of luck...

[Bob Winkler]

you did good bob.

I have owned Laguna 24 and looked at the mm 16 pretty close. Both are real decent saws ( although it is not apples to apples with the 24 and 16 series of saws) . the mm has the stouter frame it seems than the Laguna. It was nice that you could do a side by side comparison. I am sure that you could offer some "first impressions" for the community that pushed you in the mm corner.

I think one thing that makes a real difference is the blade you put on it. Personally I like the timber wolf series of blades.

best wishes with that new saw.

Lou

My "first impressions", really sided with the Laguna, mainly based on customers in the Laguna booth who told me about less than ideal customer support from Minimax. Everyone there raved about Laguna customer support. I almost pulled the trigger on the L18", which I thought was a lot of saw for $2395.

But after focusing again on the 16" size, I eventually decided on the MM for the following, not so scientific reasons:

- the MM16 had a bigger, beefier table
- the MM16 had an easily removable, "old fashioned" cast iron fence which appealed to me.
- The ceramic guides on the Laguna caused me hesitation because they were fairly new and unproven, and were not easily exchanged for aftermarket guides.
- The package deal for the Laguna did not include the mobility kit
- the MM16 frame seemed more substantial
- The Laguna saleperson confused me about all his sand casting (bad) vs investment casting (good) talk. Plus he called the MM16 "30-year old technology", which even if true, kind of appealed to me :) .

The Laguna had some really nice features and as I said, it was a hard decision. I hope I didn't offend any Laguna fans out there- believe me I'm no bandsaw expert.

Bob

[Jim Becker]

Welcome to the MM16 owners club...a very nice bunch of folks! And yes, both machines are very nice. I have always felt more comfortable with the MM people, however, for some reason.

BTW, the "sand casting" argument is a complete crock...all sales/marketing, no substance.

[lou sansone]

I guess to be fair to all concerned, and please correct me ( and I know someone will ) if I am wrong, but neither mm or laguna actually make there own saws. laguna = ACM and MM = centurao .

but again ... congrats on a very nice saw

lou

[Bob Winkler]

Welcome to the MM16 owners club...a very nice bunch of folks! And yes, both machines are very nice. I have always felt more comfortable with the MM people, however, for some reason.

BTW, the "sand casting" argument is a complete crock...all sales/marketing, no substance.

Jim, I figured as much about the casting issue. BTW, the the MM salesman, Mike Kahn, knew you and SMC. I had to like him when he said that SMC was a great forum.;)

Bob

[Frank Chaffee]

I hope you guys aren't gonna tell me I messed up after all that agonizing:eek: .
Bob

Bob,
Sorry but I gotta chime in with those who pointed out that you blew it big time. Faced with a decision like that, *most* Creekers would have bought one of each of the two choices.

But more seriously, I is really happy for you and somewhat envious too!

Frank

[Roy Wall]

I guess to be fair to all concerned, and please correct me ( and I know someone will ) if I am wrong, but neither mm or laguna actually make there own saws. laguna = ACM and MM = centurao .

but again ... congrats on a very nice saw

lou

Lou - You are correct!

[Dev Emch]

...

- The Laguna saleperson confused me about all his sand casting (bad) vs investment casting (good) talk. Plus he called the MM16 "30-year old technology", which even if true, kind of appealed to me :) .
...



What in the dickens are you guys talking about? Investment casting often produces more detail than does sand but its harder to do on an industrial basis. Besides, much of your sand casting left these days has gone to petrobond class sands which eliminates some of the issues with the older bentenite based green sands. But then you get the furian resin varients of sand casting in which the sand is impregnated with an epoxy that holds the sand together but eventually breaks down on contact with heat. These can produce excellent results. Investment casting involves making a mold that accepts industrial wax. Then this wax replica is smoothered in gravy (a type of plaster like, cementatous slurry) that hardens. This mold is then baked for a while to a). Remove the interior wax and leave a void, and 2). To remove stray water molecules from the slurry which can cause lots of issues with molten hot metal (i.e. read as explosions). Then this mold is taken and filled with metal and the slurry exterior is busted up leaving a metal replica of the original wax item. Now you can also use styrofoam to do this. Many outboard motors and some car engines are made this way. A machine produces styrofoam versions of the parts which are then coated with foundary slurry and baked at very high temperatures which vaporizes the styrofoam leaving nothing behind in the mold. Fill with metal, knock off slurry and send to the machine shop.

Which is better? Each process has its advantages and disadvantages but no one way is better than the other. It depends on the metal used, the number of items needed, the type of foundary, the per unit casting cost, etc. etc. etc. I will say that investment casting can, if done right, pick up extreme detail when its needed. I have a reproduction plow plane that was made a few years ago using bronze and investment technology. The surface detail is insane with leaves, snake skin texture, and other ornamental items. Does the use of investment casting make this a better plane than a sand cast plane? No, it just picks up detail that the sand cannot do.

It is frustating when sales folk learn a the new buzz word of the day. I had the laguna guys telling me that hofmann had this new specialized surface grinder that did a better job than anything anyone has ever done. One look at the pictures and i knew this was a crock. It was not some new fangled surface grinder but rather an old fashioned metal planer which was the standard in woodworking machines since 1900.

Geez...... didnt anyone take metal shop in high school?:p

[Dev Emch]

Well Bob, I think ya' made a poor choice there. So poor that I will travel the 50 miles, remove said offensive machine, and give you a chance to do a "do over". I feel so bad that I won't even ask you to help me load it.:eek: ;).
All kidding aside. It's a great machine, either of those choices would be a great machine. That would be a really hard decision to make at a show. I would have needed a few pints, and still would have flipped a coin, and done paper, rock ,scissors a few times.:D

Imagine me at the show after a few pints........ :p:D:p

[Bob Winkler]

Next show I'm bringing Dev and Lou with me. I'll supply the pints (or the coffee). Should make decision making much easier (and more fun).

Bob

[Mark Rios]

Please forgive me if this question is not polite but.......was there a special price at the show or did they make you pay full retail, or maybe there was a show premium? Our show out here is coming up in april and ?????????if there is a deal to be had at a show I might try hard to wait. :D :D :D

Again, if this question is inappropriate I apologize.

[Ian Barley]

Next show I'm bringing Dev and Lou with me. I'll supply the pints (or the coffee). Should make decision making much easier (and more fun).

Bob
Bob - never - NEVER - feed Dev coffee. Caffiene is a stimulant - would you wanna risk being in the room with an overstimulated Dev?:)

[lou sansone]

dev and I have been thinking about our own version of the optimal table saw. Maybe we will call it the SMC 88 DL. You never know

lou

[Bob Winkler]

Lou/Dev,
I'm certain the SMC 88DL will have lots of cast iron, a hunking 3-phase motor, 16" blade and purr like a kitten.:cool:

Mark, at the show, both companies were offering $300 off of list price. For MM, they were offering the holiday sale deal that was on over Christmas- 3 blades, mobility kit, miter guage, fence, and $300 off. Laguna had the same deal minus the mobility kit. Both saws were $2095.

In the end, I got a slightly better deal because he reduced freight charges. Hope I answered your question.

Bob

[tod evans]

bob, i think you`ll be happy with the little bugger:) and my experience with the mm staff has all been positive not one bump.

29561

29562

just so you know, bandsaws get lonely and will sometimes drag home a friend......tod

[Jim Becker]

Please forgive me if this question is not polite but.......was there a special price at the show or did they make you pay full retail, or maybe there was a show premium?

Excellent question. Both companies run show specials that offer a lower price and more stuff. I did that with both of my MM machines and saved a bundle. (I also pre-bought and took a show display machine home, thus saving shipping cost, too)


BTW, the the MM salesman, Mike Kahn, knew you and SMC. I had to like him when he said that SMC was a great forum.

Michael's a great guy. I first met him at the "really big" IWF show in Atlanta back in 2002. His cohorts are also very nice...all of them.

[Mike Cutler]

Geez...... didnt anyone take metal shop in high school?:p

I took a year of metal shop in high school. The second year we were going to learn to use the furnace. When the teacher explained that the furnace could explode if not used properly. I looked at my classmates and made the first value added decision of my life. I was back in woodshop and mechanical drawing the next day.

PS Everybody. When did Guinness start making "Pints of coffee".;)

[Mark Rios]

Lou/Dev,
I'm certain the SMC 88DL will have lots of cast iron, a hunking 3-phase motor, 16" blade and purr like a kitten.:cool:

Mark, at the show, both companies were offering $300 off of list price. For MM, they were offering the holiday sale deal that was on over Christmas- 3 blades, mobility kit, miter guage, fence, and $300 off. Laguna had the same deal minus the mobility kit. Both saws were $2095.

In the end, I got a slightly better deal because he reduced freight charges. Hope I answered your question.

Bob

Yes and thank you very much. That sounds like a great deal.

[Luther Oswalt]

I took a year of metal shop in high school. The second year we were going to learn to use the furnace. When the teacher explained that the furnace could explode if not used properly. I looked at my classmates and made the first value added decision of my life. I was back in woodshop and mechanical drawing the next day.

PS Everybody. When did Guinness start making "Pints of coffee".;)
Mike,
I'm still laughing:D .... that was a well wrtten account and I can just see a bunch of young guys standing there listening to the teacher explaining "How this thing could blow up ... right here in this shop ... right now!" ... when in the back of the group "Mike sez Th' H*ll you say!" ... and scooting for the door....
Leo