How Do I Make A Copy Of This???

[Derek Arita]

This is made of 3/8" steel. It measures about 10"x8" in an oval shape. I want to make one out of solid surface material that can be worked with WW tools, like quartz. The main problem is, how do I copy the inset? It's about 1/4" deep. Does somebody make a flush trim bit, bearing on the bottom, that's shallow enough to ride in the inset?
https://i.imgur.com/0u9jQDB.jpg

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Derek, quartz can't be worked with woodworking tools, you are probably thinking of corian.

[Doug Garson]

Agree with Steve, Corian yes quartz no. You don't need a router bit with just 1/4" of cutting depth. If your bit has say 1" of cutting depth you just need a pattern that's thick enough so the bearing can ride on the pattern with just 1/4" of cutting depth exposed. So 3/4" minimum would work.

[David Buchhauser]

Here is a video on routing corian you may find instructive. I think the main thing is to use a sharp high quality solid carbide router bit.
David

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDLMRboy5Wg
Festool Router for cutting Corian or any Solid Surface Material

[Derek Arita]

Here's what I can't wrap my head around...how do I make the pattern for the flush bit bearing to follow. How do I make the pattern that would allow me to rout that same inset? And yes, you're right, I'm thinking of Corian or something like it.

[Stephen White]

Here's what I can't wrap my head around...how do I make the pattern for the flush bit bearing to follow. How do I make the pattern that would allow me to rout that same inset? And yes, you're right, I'm thinking of Corian or something like it.

why not trace the pattern on ply then another outter line of say an inch around it and cut away then cut away the inner line and clamp the resulting ply pattern on the corrian and route the pocket?

[David Buchhauser]

That's exactly what I was thinking. I would do it on my cnc router, but by hand will work as well. Since the inset looks to have very tight corner radii - you might end up using a second router bit just for the corners.
David

[Dan Cameron]

That's exactly what I was thinking. I would do it on my cnc router, but by hand will work as well. Since the inset looks to have very tight corner radii - you might end up using a second router bit just for the corners.
David

Those inside corners are not radii, and therefore cannot be cut by a router bit.

[Dan Cameron]

That's exactly what I was thinking. I would do it on my cnc router, but by hand will work as well. Since the inset looks to have very tight corner radii - you might end up using a second router bit just for the corners.
David

Those inside corners are not circular and therefore cannot be cut by a router bit.

[Derek Arita]

This has to be as close to an exact copy as possible, because the base of a tool fits into the recess as snuggly as possible.

[David Buchhauser]

Those inside corners are not circular and therefore cannot be cut by a router bit.


Then use the smallest router bit possible to get them close, then "hand work" to finish it off to correct corner shape.
David

[Bill Dufour]

You could cast and fill the pocket with something like plaster, epoxy or jb weld. Use plywood for the center as cheap filler. Remove it, you did use mold release right?, and use a it as a pattern to rout a negative.
Bill D

[John C Bush]

Look up paper stone-hard solid surface countertop material easily worked with WW tools.

[Jacques Gagnon]

Derek,

If I understand correctly you are trying to create an exact copy of the « cavity ».

How about a piece of MDF or plywood (1/4 or 3/8 inch) fastened with double sided tape to your master. A hole larger than the router bit will have been drilled anywhere « inside the perimeter » of the cavity. You can then let the bottom bearing follow the surface of the cavity and will end up with a very close - if not perfect - match of the shape. Removing material with a jigsaw within 3/8 inch from the perimeter before using the router would work even better.

If, on the other hand you need to replicate the « fill piece », you can than use an inlay kit and produce the « fill » from the « cavity » produced in step one.

Regards,

J.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Could you spray this with an oil as a release agent and then pour plaster into it. Then cut a piece of wood to close dimensions and use the plaster one to make the trim on the wood one. Then use the wood one to cut a corian one.

[Cassius Nielsen]

Jacques has the method I would go with if you need an exact copy with the bearing of a bit riding on the edge of the steel piece you have. Then take the piece of mdf/ply that is your pattern and use something like this in a plunge router to make it. https://www.amazon.com/Whiteside-Router-Bits-3010-Template/dp/B000HZX4WO/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=whiteside+router+bit+3010&qid=1632119960&sr=8-2 Make sure you measure correctly, the router bit biting into steel will be a very bad time.

[George Yetka]

I would put a piece of paper over the object and use a pencil to rub the shape. Cut it out and transfer to mdf. Cut it out of the MDF

[Brian Runau]

Related, but a more general question. I know how to make a template to route internal shapes likes this. I would cut out the inside of the shape using a hand held jig saw. My problem in doing this is I get a less than straight edge for the bearing on the router bit to follow. I know there is a better technique than what I am doing. Welcome direction. thanks Brian

[Timothy Thorpe Allen]

Does the final product need to be one solid piece, or could you laminate it out of two layers ? top layer, 1/4" thick, has recess cut in it; bottom layer, 1/8" thick, is continuous to form the bottom of the recess...

[Derek Arita]

Derek,

If I understand correctly you are trying to create an exact copy of the « cavity ».

How about a piece of MDF or plywood (1/4 or 3/8 inch) fastened with double sided tape to your master. A hole larger than the router bit will have been drilled anywhere « inside the perimeter » of the cavity. You can then let the bottom bearing follow the surface of the cavity and will end up with a very close - if not perfect - match of the shape. Removing material with a jigsaw within 3/8 inch from the perimeter before using the router would work even better.

If, on the other hand you need to replicate the « fill piece », you can than use an inlay kit and produce the « fill » from the « cavity » produced in step one.

Regards,

J.

Jacques, you've got it! That's what I was thinking of doing. Problem is, the recess is only 1/4" deep. My pattern bits with bearing on the bottom. Maybe I can raise the piece to be routed high enough to keep the bearing + screw from bottoming out.
And, yes John...paper stone hard solid surface would be perfect. Thanks. I've used it before, but couldn't remember what it was called.

[Michael Rutman]

If I understand you correctly, you need the hole to be just large enough for something to fit in and don't need a perfect surface.

I'd suggest removing waste material with a drill press and forstner bits. You'll have little dimples in the bottom so I wouldn't do it if people can see the surface. After you remove the majority you can clean up the line with a standard template and a router.

[Doug Garson]

Jacques, you've got it! That's what I was thinking of doing. Problem is, the recess is only 1/4" deep. My pattern bits with bearing on the bottom. Maybe I can raise the piece to be routed high enough to keep the bearing + screw from bottoming out.
And, yes John...paper stone hard solid surface would be perfect. Thanks. I've used it before, but couldn't remember what it was called.
If by bottom mounted bearing, you mean the bearing is at the opposite end from the shank, the obviously you cannot do a plunge operation. You need a top mounted bearing and a pattern thick enough that the bearing rides on the pattern with only the 1/4" protruding into the workpiece. What's the application? Why does the machine have to fit snuggly into the recess?

[Derek Arita]

If by bottom mounted bearing, you mean the bearing is at the opposite end from the shank, the obviously you cannot do a plunge operation. You need a top mounted bearing and a pattern thick enough that the bearing rides on the pattern with only the 1/4" protruding into the workpiece. What's the application? Why does the machine have to fit snuggly into the recess?

It's a blade sharpening system that has to fit into the recess, with little movement. If I have the plate that fits the recess, would that make making the recess template easier?

[Doug Garson]

Yes, you can use the plate to trace the outline on the template remembering that the inside of the line is just outside the outline of the recess so when you route the recess you must leave the line. That should give you the recess you want. If you really want a snug fit use a several layers of painters tape on the inside of the template. If the fit is too snug, remove one layer of tape and cut again, repeat removing layers until it fits. For added snuggness, you could put some double sided tape in the recess but that might make it difficult to remove the machine.

[Derek Arita]

Ok, cool. Now I have to find out where I can get a 12"x12"x1 1/4" piece of paperstone.

[Doug Garson]

Maybe look for a sink cutout that you can trim to size. Check out kitchen counter installers.

[Derek Arita]

I just bought the Paperstone for the project. I may end up gluing two 3/4" sheets together for weight and stability. I'm hoping that epoxy will be adequate. This is going to interesting...

[Rich Engelhardt]

I would cut out the inside of the shape using a hand held jig saw. My problem in doing this is I get a less than straight edge for the bearing on the router bit to follow. I know there is a better technique than what I am doing. Welcome direction. thanks BrianMake the template in multiple pieces, use lap joints to join the pieces together.
Since all you're after is the inside, the outside of the template can be any shape you need it to be in order to fasten all the pieces together.

[John K Jordan]

A pantograph can enlarge, reduce, or duplicate a shape at the same size.

Here is one made for pencils.
https://www.amazon.com/Surepromise-Plexiglass-Pantograph-Enlarger-Recreate/dp/B01ALCEPDO
Could trace the outline onto a template then cut the template to accommodate a router or digitize for a CNC.

I have a friend who made a heavy duty pantograph to make exact copies with a router. It's not rocket science.

JKJ

[Warren Lake]

Tool and die maker I knew had two deckel Pantographs. I goofed around with the large one, wicked quality machine. Made me a human CNC and it floated and was so precision id never felt quality like that ever. i think it was six or seven feet tall the larger one.

If you are doing one its one thing if you are doing many then over head router or inverted onsrud are also a choice. im not a CNC guy and dont care about it as much as there are many good reasons for it.

[Keith Outten]

This is a pin router attachment for router tables. Purchased from Lee Valley it is the best quality pin router I could find. I use it to edge route plaques but it is a very flexible way to route several types of jobs. You could fasten your project to a solid surface blank, follow the interior edge using the top bearing surface with the router bit underneath cutting the underside of the solid surface blank. Make sure you select the same diameter bearing to match your router bit.

I own a CNC Router which is how I would machine your project but this method is foolproof and easy to reproduce a project like yours. Since I often route 3 to 4 hundred door signs on the average project I stopped using a router bit with a bearing because the bearings get clogged up with Corian dust very frequently.

[Derek Arita]

Keith, I'll def look into this. Very interesting...

[Keith Outten]

I don't know why the pin router attachments are not very popular, possibly because most people are not aware of their capability but they are really handy and extend the versatility of any router table. Mine requires me to drill two holes to bolt it to the table but it could easily be fastened to a small block that could be clamped to the table so it could be removed real quick. Template routing is a great technique when it can be done easily. I am transitioning my pin router to a permanent table using the 3/4" thick Corian in the picture.

Before any of you CNC guys ask why I don't edge prep my door signs using my CNC the answer is money. A 30" by 48" piece of solid surface material makes 20 plaques cutting them out with a 1/4" straight router bit. If I used a roman ogee router bit in my CNC I would lose one row of plaques per sheet, basically 5 plaques because of the larger diameter cutter.

[Mark Bolton]

Why not just lay a thin piece of hardboard clamped to the steel part, and use a piloted laminate trimmer (no bearing) drill a hole, route out the shape of the cavity, the steel part will template an exact copy in the thin hardboard, then clamp the hardboard to your actual part and use a top bearing bit to exactly copy the cavity onto your work piece? As stated youll have to hand work the sharp corners. If you need more thickness for your top bearing bit to ride on (shallow pocket in your final piece) or you want to accurately test the fit, use the hardboard template to route the pocket in a piece of 3/4" ply, test the fit, adjust by adding tape or opening up the pocket with a file, and when your happy route on the final part.

https://ballewsaw.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/a92e82358f81d2c49475cb9d656eb329/2/7/27-50.jpg

[Derek Arita]

Why not just lay a thin piece of hardboard clamped to the steel part, and use a piloted laminate trimmer (no bearing) drill a hole, route out the shape of the cavity, the steel part will template an exact copy in the thin hardboard, then clamp the hardboard to your actual part and use a top bearing bit to exactly copy the cavity onto your work piece? As stated youll have to hand work the sharp corners. If you need more thickness for your top bearing bit to ride on (shallow pocket in your final piece) or you want to accurately test the fit, use the hardboard template to route the pocket in a piece of 3/4" ply, test the fit, adjust by adding tape or opening up the pocket with a file, and when your happy route on the final part.

https://ballewsaw.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/a92e82358f81d2c49475cb9d656eb329/2/7/27-50.jpg

Now that's a good idea. Will there be damage to the original's inner surface?

[Mark Bolton]

Now that's a good idea. Will there be damage to the original's inner surface?

The pilot bearing will most definitely rub on the surface of the part being templated. It would require some adjusting of your template after the fact but you could most definitely cleanly tape off the inner cavity on the steel part and cut out the bulk of the material using a paper template on the hardboard leaving only a very slight final cleanup pass with the bit in the image and with very light pressure you'd most definitely come out unscathed but you'd probably be left with a slightly undersize template. My guess is with yellow masking tape it may be very little hand filing to tune your fit but no idea whether this is a nasa level it or just a good fit.

[Mark Bolton]

Alternatively if you have the mating part to that cavity, use a template bearing set (different size bearings) to accurately template the mating part and generate a template from that.

[Warren Lake]

Keith why do you not use a saw to cut your blanks, id imagine CNC is painfully slow cutting with a quarter inch bit. Ive cut lots of irregular stuff hogging in solid with quarter inch bits and also snapped enough onsrud CRO285 bits as well. Excellent quality bits those are.

[Mark Bolton]

You could fasten your project to a solid surface blank, follow the interior edge using the top bearing surface with the router bit underneath cutting the underside of the solid surface blank. Make sure you select the same diameter bearing to match your router bit.

I think the issue with pattern cutting the pocket from the original part here is that its so shallow. The bearing and the socket head cap screw may likely come close to not making it on the pocket depth but it may be close or worst case you could roach a screw on a 1/4" bottom bearing bit, tighten it up good, and grind most all of the head off, to make the bearing and cap screw as short as possible. I think he said the pocket was only about 1/4" deep which is pretty much chewed up by the thickness of the bearing alone..

[Keith Outten]

Keith why do you not use a saw to cut your blanks, id imagine CNC is painfully slow cutting with a quarter inch bit. Ive cut lots of irregular stuff hogging in solid with quarter inch bits and also snapped enough onsrud CRO285 bits as well. Excellent quality bits those are.

The picture below is the sign shape I use most of the time for ADA door signs. Some of them have a window machined for an insert and some don't. I machine the back side first, even the signs that do not have a window have to have the keyholes machined.

[Mark Bolton]

The picture below is the sign shape I use most of the time for ADA door signs. Some of them have a window machined for an insert and some don't. I machine the back side first, even the signs that do not have a window have to have the keyholes machined.

Your sign work is always impressive. Is all that in the shield/star painted in by hand?

[Warren Lake]

thanks Keith, see there are only two straight cuts not four so that makes sense. I did stuff that was irregular so hog cutting with the 1/4" bits.

[Tyler Bancroft]

Does it have to be a single piece? Or could you cut the inset as a hole in one piece with a coping saw or files and then attach it to a bottom layer?

[Keith Outten]

The Saint Mary's logo was laser engraved and painted with a Q-Tip. I just swab the paint into the engraved areas and then run my ROS over the plaque when the paint is almost dry. The blue contour line around the perimeter of the plaque is done the same way except I use a foam brush.

Quick Tip: I paint with enamel paint late in the day so the next morning I can easily scrape off the excess paint with a razor blade scraper. It only take a few seconds to sand the surface with a ROS to remove whats left on the surface.

I make these from a single layer of 1/2" thick solid surface material. Place the sheet on the router table and machine the back then turn it over and cut the front before I cut out each of the signs.

I have made thousands of these signs and adjusted my fabrication technique to cut seconds from each step in the process where I could to save time. All text and graphics are pristine, very sharp edges that look fantastic without having to use any masking material. This make the cost of solid surface less of an issue because it saves a lot time.

The pin router is also one of my time saving steps that makes it easy to edge prep without a bearing. I now produce these signs at about 50% less time than when I started.

[Brice Rogers]

Thinking a bit out of the box here....

Why don't you route the recess and when you get to the sharp inside corners just run the router slightly beyond the corner or predrill the corners prior to routing. Take enough material out of the corners so whatever you are placing in the recess will fit. It will look a little different but should work perfectly fine. I've seen this technique used in steel tool holder manufacturing.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0145/3942/3844/products/indexable-carbide-tools-m100-1.2_fb5e40fc-9db0-46dd-af9b-6124dd5d600f_2048x2048.jpg?v=1609307211

[Mark Bolton]

I've seen this technique used in steel tool holder manufacturing.

Dog boning is super common, I use it all the time on fixtures and work holding. My guess was the OP likely wanted some crisp pocket as he mentioned I think this is some sort base or some component of what looks to be a counter top sharpening setup.

The dog bones are most definitely handy.

[Derek Arita]

This is a pin router attachment for router tables. Purchased from Lee Valley it is the best quality pin router I could find. I use it to edge route plaques but it is a very flexible way to route several types of jobs. You could fasten your project to a solid surface blank, follow the interior edge using the top bearing surface with the router bit underneath cutting the underside of the solid surface blank. Make sure you select the same diameter bearing to match your router bit.

I own a CNC Router which is how I would machine your project but this method is foolproof and easy to reproduce a project like yours. Since I often route 3 to 4 hundred door signs on the average project I stopped using a router bit with a bearing because the bearings get clogged up with Corian dust very frequently.

Keith, I think the pin router attachment is the way to go, although I can't find it on Lee Valley's website. I see other attachments from other makers. Let me know if you can find it. Looks like I can just locate the original part on top of the work piece, then follow the inset and hog out the rest. Thanks so much!

[Keith Outten]

Owners Manual (http://www.veritastools.com/Content/Assets/ProductInfo/EN/05J37.01EN.pdf) - Check out the owners manual, lots of pictures that show how it works.

Lee Valley (http://www.veritastools.com/Products/Page.aspx?p=212)

SKU 05J3701

[Derek Arita]

Owners Manual (http://www.veritastools.com/Content/Assets/ProductInfo/EN/05J37.01EN.pdf) - Check out the owners manual, lots of pictures that show how it works.

Lee Valley (http://www.veritastools.com/Products/Page.aspx?p=212)

SKU 05J3701
Thanks Keith. I saw that, but couldn't find anyone that still has it. I ended up ordering one from MLCS. It's not very pretty and refined, but it looks like it does the same thing. Guess I'll find out.

[Keith Outten]

I just called Veritas to find out if they still sold the pin router and found out it was discontinued awhile back. Sorry for sending you outdated information.
The MLCS pin router should work for you though, don't forget that you can use the pin router and templates to cut letters and numbers should you ever have the need.

[Derek Arita]

No worries. The Veritas one is cool looking, but probably would cost a lot more than the no-frills one I'm getting. Actually, I can see several uses for it and it's the perfect solution to my question, so thank you.