from carpet to wood stairs, looks nice but squeaky like crazy?

[Forrest Gon]

So I have finally got ride of the old carpet on the stairs and replaced it with hardwood. I made(edge glued) the red oak treads myself, as well as the MDF risers. I also hardwired led lights under the noses.

Yesterday I finally put everything together, had to shim most of the stairs as there were almost 1/4 difference from the back to front on quite some old treads. I used PL300 to glue the shims and treads(did not use any nails)

Everything looks nice, BUT, the new stairs squeak loudly when people walk on it, it seems every treads is squeaky.

I am not sure what might be the reason, the shims? or I cut the treads too tight they rub the skirtboard? How can I tell and is there any fix? Thanks!

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[Jim Becker]

Did you test and deal with squeaks and creaks before applying the new material over the old? The carpet likely would have masked the noise a lot. Now you don't have that benefit and the underlying structure could be the cause of the issue.

[Forrest Gon]

Before I installed the new treads, without carpet the stairs squeaked only a little bit, but now it squeaks really bad.

My first time doing this, so had no experience what should I have checked, :(





Did you test and deal with squeaks and creaks before applying the new material over the old? The carpet likely would have masked the noise a lot. Now you don't have that benefit and the underlying structure could be the cause of the issue.

[Jim Dwight]

Pretty hard to say without examining the stairs and might not be apparent even then. If it was squeaking before tread installation they cannot be the whole issue. If you still have access to the under side I would try shims to tighten the connections with construction adhesive. If you have to fasten from the top, you may want to use trim head screws. They require only small holes which you can fill with color matching wax.

The big issue seems to be to know what exactly is squeaking.

[Forrest Gon]

I do have access from under side.

I just tested on another set of stairs which I have also had carpet removed. Without the new tread the is no squeak when I step on it. But after I put the new tread on the squeak starts. I made the tread pretty tight on both sides. Is it possible the sides are rubbing the skirtboard?

[Dan Friedrichs]

Forrest, that actually looks really nice. However, I'm worried that you don't have a bullnose on the front edge of the treads. I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but in most localities, that would not comply with building code and is going to cause you some major headache when/if you ever sell the place. Additionally, I imagine there may be some comfort problems if you're stepping on that sharp edge, and possibly long-term issues with that sharp edge wearing and causing splinters, etc. I hate to say it, but I think that alone is a good reason to tear it out and do it correctly.

Also note that stairs generally have some very stringent requirements for rise and run variation, and level-ness of individual steps. It sounds like you had to do a lot of shimming - hopefully the end result complies. If you've ever stepped down a set of stairs with even a 1/2" rise difference, it's downright dangerous - you can easily trip. When you added these treads, did you add the same thickness flooring at the top and bottom of the stairs to keep the rise of the first and last steps consistent?

Squeaking is caused by movement. A solidly-built staircase with thick treads and risers should not have movement. So to eliminate the squeaks, you need to find what's moving and stop it from moving. Having the treads tight to the skirtboards is not a problem (and is certainly aesthetically preferred) if neither is moving.

I'd suggest tearing the treads and risers off and evaluating the rigidity of the underlying structure. If it's typical particle board stair treads, consider removing them and replacing with good quality plywood, screwed together and liberally glued with PL300. Likewise for the typical builder-grade 1/4" plywood risers. If possible, add another stringer in the middle. Make sure everything is level and will meets rise and run requirements after you install the oak treads and MDF risers, including accounting for the first and last steps correctly.

[Forrest Gon]

Hi Dan, thanks for the reply, I do have bullnose on the front edge, for every tread, I cut a 1/2 strip from the same tread board and glued it back to make a square bullnose, see attached photo here.

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I have not worked on the landing area yet, but it appears that i need to do something there to keep the rise of the first and last steps consistent.

The old stair treads are 1.5' thick wood(pine?).

And I just tested on one tread by screw 10 2' screws from under side, and it does not change much.(maybe a little bit better?) And I noticed when I step on one tread, the other treads are also squeaking....

oh boy....

[Frank Pratt]

Hi Dan, thanks for the reply, I do have bullnose on the front edge, for every tread, I cut a 1/2 strip from the same tread board and glued it back to make a square bullnose, see attached photo here.

I think you misunderstood what Dan was referring to. A bullnose is rounded off. Your treads are squared off. Typically, the nose of a tread will have a 1/2" radius bullnose on it. While they look beautiful, your stairs would be pretty nasty to use without shoes on and a real danger to anyone who falls down the stairs.

Count the squeaking as an blessing. You can dismantle the treads, attend to the movement, and put a bullnose on them.

[Forrest Gon]

hmmm, I have seen some modern stairs which have square nose.

On the other hand, will it be possible to dismantle the new treads while the PL300 has already set?


I think you misunderstood what Dan was referring to. A bullnose is rounded off. Your treads are squared off. Typically, the nose of a tread will have a 1/2" radius bullnose on it. While they look beautiful, your stairs would be pretty nasty to use without shoes on and a real danger to anyone who falls down the stairs.

Count the squeaking as an blessing. You can dismantle the treads, attend to the movement, and put a bullnose on them.

[Dave Zellers]

Is it possible the sides are rubbing the skirtboard?

I would bet money that is what's happening. The stringers are moving. Go underneath, carefully locate the studs, shim the gap between the stringer and the wall, and run a 1/4" deck screw (bolt?) I forget what they are called, into every other stud on both sides. Pre drill into the studs whatever the shank of the screw is so you don't just split the stud apart. That should solve the problem.

[Dave Zellers]

...will it be possible to dismantle the new treads while the PL300 has already set?

Nope. At least not in any practical way.
Going back and reading again, is it possible you glued your new treads to the old treads without first screwing down the old treads to the stringers??? If so, when you are underneath bolting the stringers to the walls, at the very least, run a messy, pressed firmly into place and sticking to both tread and stringer bead of construction adhesive on every single spot you can find.

Plus, I agree with all points made about messing up the rises. Especially coming down a stair, the body adjusts to the gait. When it changes abruptly at the bottom, it can be a problem. But there are tons of stairs out there with this situation. It can be dangerous, but mostly it's just sloppy and very bad form.

[Jared Sankovich]

Forrest, that actually looks really nice. However, I'm worried that you don't have a bullnose on the front edge of the treads. I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but in most localities, that would not comply with building code and is going to cause you some major headache when/if you ever sell the place. Additionally, I imagine there may be some comfort problems if you're stepping on that sharp edge, and possibly long-term issues with that sharp edge wearing and causing splinters, etc. I hate to say it, but I think that alone is a good reason to tear it out and do it correctly.

Also note that stairs generally have some very stringent requirements for rise and run variation, and level-ness of individual steps. It sounds like you had to do a lot of shimming - hopefully the end result complies. If you've ever stepped down a set of stairs with even a 1/2" rise difference, it's downright dangerous - you can easily trip. When you added these treads, did you add the same thickness flooring at the top and bottom of the stairs to keep the rise of the first and last steps consistent?

Squeaking is caused by movement. A solidly-built staircase with thick treads and risers should not have movement. So to eliminate the squeaks, you need to find what's moving and stop it from moving. Having the treads tight to the skirtboards is not a problem (and is certainly aesthetically preferred) if neither is moving.

I'd suggest tearing the treads and risers off and evaluating the rigidity of the underlying structure. If it's typical particle board stair treads, consider removing them and replacing with good quality plywood, screwed together and liberally glued with PL300. Likewise for the typical builder-grade 1/4" plywood risers. If possible, add another stringer in the middle. Make sure everything is level and will meets rise and run requirements after you install the oak treads and MDF risers, including accounting for the first and last steps correctly.

Bullnose is not required, Code specifies a 9/16 maximum radius. There is no minimum.

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[Forrest Gon]

That is right, I did not add new screws to the old treads as i could see they were already screwed to the stringers.



Nope. At least not in any practical way.
Going back and reading again, is it possible you glued your new treads to the old treads without first screwing down the old treads to the stringers??? If so, when you are underneath bolting the stringers to the walls, at the very least, run a messy, pressed firmly into place and sticking to both tread and stringer bead of construction adhesive on every single spot you can find.

Plus, I agree with all points made about messing up the rises. Especially coming down a stair, the body adjusts to the gait. When it changes abruptly at the bottom, it can be a problem. But there are tons of stairs out there with this situation. It can be dangerous, but mostly it's just sloppy and very bad form.

[Forrest Gon]

Thanks, I just went under the stairs and pushed and pulled the two stringer boards, and the stairs squeaks while I was doing that. Does that indicate anything?



I would bet money that is what's happening. The stringers are moving. Go underneath, carefully locate the studs, shim the gap between the stringer and the wall, and run a 1/4" deck screw (bolt?) I forget what they are called, into every other stud on both sides. Pre drill into the studs whatever the shank of the screw is so you don't just split the stud apart. That should solve the problem.

[Jared Sankovich]

You mentioned shims. How many per tread and where are they located? I'm inclined to think the new tread flexing and causing movement between the new tread, old tread, shims and skirtboards.

[Forrest Gon]

On average 4 or 5 shims per tread. I tried to spread them out and applied glue under the shims and on the shims(so them won't move around).


You mentioned shims. How many per tread and where are they located? I'm inclined to think the new tread flexing and causing movement between the new tread, old tread, shims and skirtboards.

[Ted Calver]

Try a puff of baby powder where each tread meets the skirt board. If that's the source of the squeak the powder may work itself into the joint and help reduce the noise.

[Robert Mayer]

Try a puff of baby powder where each tread meets the skirt board. If that's the source of the squeak the powder may work itself into the joint and help reduce the noise.

Avoid Johnson & Johnson baby powder (now with Asbestos!)

[Donald G. Burns]

In the town I live in the building inspector was firm that every rise had to be within 1/8" and that included top and bottom. Worse thing was this was for an outdoor flag stone set of steps and it took a bunch of work to get the steps to pass inspection (the second time, failed the 1st time)

[Jim Becker]

Thanks, I just went under the stairs and pushed and pulled the two stringer boards, and the stairs squeaks while I was doing that. Does that indicate anything?




It sounds like some more screws are needed and since you can do things from below, you can not only reinforce the connection between the original treads and the stringers, but if you do some math, you can use fasteners to also catch the new, overlay treads from below without penetrating, and lock them in tighter than the adhesive ever will.

[Frank Pratt]

hmmm, I have seen some modern stairs which have square nose.

On the other hand, will it be possible to dismantle the new treads while the PL300 has already set?

I've never seen anything about code requiring a bullnose, but just from a comfort point of view, it makes my feet hurt just looking at those square edges. Even a 1/4" radius would make a tremendous difference.

If the PL is smeared all over the underside of the treads, I don't know if they could be removed without destroying them.

[Forrest Gon]

I checked the building code, it says this


"As for stair treads the depth should not be less than 10 inches however this will require nosing projections. To avoid having to install nosing the code requires the depth of the tread to be no less than 11 inches. Nosing that is beveled should not exceed ½ inch or the radius of curvature not more than 9/16 inch. The projection of nosing shall not be more than 1 ¼ inches and no less than ¾ inch. Again the tolerance of treads or nosing should be no more than ⅜ inch"


and here is a diagram
https://buildingcodetrainer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Stair-Tread-Depth-1024x828.jpg

None of the stairs in my house meets this requirement. especially on this one >>>"As for stair treads the depth should not be less than 10 inches however this will require nosing projections", with the nosing projection all my treads depth are all less than 10'. All the treads are 10' now, minus the 1 nosing projection from the back, I only got 9'

In this case, if I want to meet the code, i will need to tear down everything, not just the old risers and treads, but the whole structure and start from zero.



In the town I live in the building inspector was firm that every rise had to be within 1/8" and that included top and bottom. Worse thing was this was for an outdoor flag stone set of steps and it took a bunch of work to get the steps to pass inspection (the second time, failed the 1st time)

[Forrest Gon]

I tested on one tread and put in 10 screws last night, does not seem to help, maybe I need to do them all, :(


It sounds like some more screws are needed and since you can do things from below, you can not only reinforce the connection between the original treads and the stringers, but if you do some math, you can use fasteners to also catch the new, overlay treads from below without penetrating, and lock them in tighter than the adhesive ever will.

[Jim Dwight]

It bothers me that you could move the stringers enough to get the stairs to squeek. Can you tell what it is made from? I took a staircase out of my house that has 2x10 stringers. They did not allow sufficient wood beneith the cuts for the treads and risers (IMHO). The staircase other issues, all rises were at least 8 inches (to high for local code) and two were over 10 inches. So I tore it all out and cut new stringers. It meets code now.

My stringers were nailed to the studs through a 2x4. That allowed drywall to be easily slid behind the stringers but still allowed the stringers to be firmly nailed to the studs. I liked that construction and repeated it on my replacement. My stringer did not need support from the studs but why not?

If you can, I would screw or nail the stringers to all the studs you can. It will stiffen then and should eliminate any ability to shift them manually. Screws would be easily removed if you have to tear it out. I would definitely try a few things first.

Many years ago I tore the carpet off a staircase in our house at the time. This is more than 20 years ago. We wanted oak. But the existing treads were framing lumber. Sturdy but unattractive. I used 3/8 inch thick solid oak flooring on the treads. I ripped the nosing of the softwood treads off and made an Oak nosing molding that I then fastened to the remaining part of the softwood tread. It was an inch thick so it could be half round on top and bottom. On the bottom, I added a cove molding to hide the gap. The flooring was just nailed through the tongues to the softwood treads. We thought it looked nice and it did not squeak. I put the same flooring in the upstairs hallway to help the rises match. You used thicker oak which is better in some ways but could complicate having consistent rises. Otherwise I do not see how it would hurt. Maybe something from this will be an idea for you.

I would start with eliminating all movement of the stringers. If you still have squeaks, you might try cutting a tread 1/16 short so there is a fine gap at the skirt. You can fill that with caulk. Doing a step or two this way could help you evaluate the treads moving on the skirts as a possible source of squeaks. Sometimes I think modern staircases have painted skirts and risers just so the joinery doesn't have to be as precise.

[Forrest Gon]

Thanks, is there a good way to cut the already glued tread now on both ends without making it look like someone bites the edges off? :D


It bothers me that you could move the stringers enough to get the stairs to squeek. Can you tell what it is made from? I took a staircase out of my house that has 2x10 stringers. They did not allow sufficient wood beneith the cuts for the treads and risers (IMHO). The staircase other issues, all rises were at least 8 inches (to high for local code) and two were over 10 inches. So I tore it all out and cut new stringers. It meets code now.

My stringers were nailed to the studs through a 2x4. That allowed drywall to be easily slid behind the stringers but still allowed the stringers to be firmly nailed to the studs. I liked that construction and repeated it on my replacement. My stringer did not need support from the studs but why not?

If you can, I would screw or nail the stringers to all the studs you can. It will stiffen then and should eliminate any ability to shift them manually. Screws would be easily removed if you have to tear it out. I would definitely try a few things first.

Many years ago I tore the carpet off a staircase in our house at the time. This is more than 20 years ago. We wanted oak. But the existing treads were framing lumber. Sturdy but unattractive. I used 3/8 inch thick solid oak flooring on the treads. I ripped the nosing of the softwood treads off and made an Oak nosing molding that I then fastened to the remaining part of the softwood tread. It was an inch thick so it could be half round on top and bottom. On the bottom, I added a cove molding to hide the gap. The flooring was just nailed through the tongues to the softwood treads. We thought it looked nice and it did not squeak. I put the same flooring in the upstairs hallway to help the rises match. You used thicker oak which is better in some ways but could complicate having consistent rises. Otherwise I do not see how it would hurt. Maybe something from this will be an idea for you.

I would start with eliminating all movement of the stringers. If you still have squeaks, you might try cutting a tread 1/16 short so there is a fine gap at the skirt. You can fill that with caulk. Doing a step or two this way could help you evaluate the treads moving on the skirts as a possible source of squeaks. Sometimes I think modern staircases have painted skirts and risers just so the joinery doesn't have to be as precise.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Bullnose is not required, Code specifies a 9/16 maximum radius. There is no minimum.

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I stand corrected. Any idea why they specify a maximum radius? I'm sure there's a reason, but the logic eludes me.

[Jared Sankovich]

I stand corrected. Any idea why they specify a maximum radius? I'm sure there's a reason, but the logic eludes me.

A large radius would effectively shorten the depth of the tread. A 45 degree bevel is also called out, but limited to 1/2" for the same reason.

[Mel Fulks]

A 10 foot radius would look too much like a straight line !

[Jim Becker]

Despite the language in the code, I think you are just fine because it's an existing staircase. You can't "stretch it" and you're just refacing it to look modern. As long as the rise/run is consistent, it should likely be just fine.

[Jim Dwight]

Yes. But it will take awhile. You could put a piece of painters tape on the skirt to protect it and then use a flush cut saw to cut off the end of the tread. That would make a very fine cut but give you clearance. You could also use a oscillating saw but it will be more difficult to avoid damaging the tread or the skirt. The cut will also be wider but still caulkable.

[Forrest Gon]

Thanks all for the inputs!

This morning me and my wife did some more tests on the stairs, we found out that when we rock on one step, we can feel the other treads are rubbing slightly against the skirt board.

I just ordered a Japanese Flush Cut Trim Saw and I plan to cut a little bit edge off and see if that makes any difference.

[Dave Zellers]

This morning me and my wife did some more tests on the stairs, we found out that when we rock on one step, we can feel the other treads are rubbing slightly against the skirt board.

That is because the stringers are flexing. I don't understand your reluctance to bolt the stringers to the walls from underneath. That will solve your problem.

Use something like this. https://www.amazon.com/FastenMaster-FMLL005-50-LedgerLOK-Fastener-50-Count/dp/B000LNVQVS/

It should be done no matter what.

[Forrest Gon]

Thanks, will probably do this first and see how it goes.


That is because the stringers are flexing. I don't understand your reluctance to bolt the stringers to the walls from underneath. That will solve your problem.

Use something like this. https://www.amazon.com/FastenMaster-FMLL005-50-LedgerLOK-Fastener-50-Count/dp/B000LNVQVS/

It should be done no matter what.

[Mike Kees]

Listen to Dave. That is your problem.

[Forrest Gon]

Hi guys, I have some GRK rss rugged structure screws #10 x 3-1/8.

Will that be sufficient to fix the stringers to the studs? Or I better go to HD to get the Ledger Board Fastener?

Thanks

[Dave Zellers]

Listen to Dave. That is your problem.

It's going to take all my restraint to not print that out and post it on our fridge where my wife can see it.

Hopefully I'm smarter than that.

We'll see.

[Dave Zellers]

Forrest- You ask questions that no one can answer because you don't provide any details. For example, No one knows what the underside of your stair looks like. You haven't described it except to say you can access it. POST A PICTURE! I am going to guess that this is a situation where the stairs were built after the house was sheet rocked. An absolutely idiotic way to build, but it happens. Whether that is true or not, the stringers are unsupported from the first floor to the second floor. Attach them to the walls on both sides. How you do that depends on your specific situation.

Shim the space between the stringer and the wall and choose an appropriate fastener to attach the two. For all the love that is holy in the world do not destroy the perfect fit you took great pains to achieve between your beautiful new treads and the skirt board.

[Forrest Gon]

Here are two photos, it seems that the fit between stringers and wall is pretty tight, I see no gaps I need to shim. If folks think the GRK rss rugged structure screws #10 x 3-1/8 is good, I will start to work on it this morning and "hopefully" report back good news, :D

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[Jim Becker]

Hi guys, I have some GRK rss rugged structure screws #10 x 3-1/8.

Will that be sufficient to fix the stringers to the studs? Or I better go to HD to get the Ledger Board Fastener?

Thanks

I will make a very general statement about this...the GRK fasteners are really good and are also structural. So as a fastening solution, they are a good choice. Whether the size you mention is the best choice for your application, I cannot say. That actually is the size I'm using for a stair project "as we speak", but it's a different situation than yours.

[Forrest Gon]

Okay, hopefully the last question, please see the photo below, I was planning to screw the stringers to the stub through "A", but it seems that the A in the photo is actually skirtboard and the two stringers are actully in the middle of the stairs. The problem is that my treads are rubbing against the skirt board, so nailing the skirtboard to studs does not seem to solve the problem as the stairs itself is still moving. Should I screw through the old treads to the stubs instead?

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[Dave Zellers]

That is bizarre construction. The stringers should be against the wall with one in the middle. You can’t do what I said. Is this space under the stairs another stair down or a closet? Would you be able to support the stringers in the middle down to the floor?

[Frank Pratt]

That's the weirdest set of stairs I've ever seen. Makes no sense how they built them. The best I can think of is to cut 2 new stringers, one for each side, to secure to the studs & construction glue to the treads & risers. That will lock the stairs to the side walls, where the squeaking is likely originating.

[Forrest Gon]

The space under the stair is a basement closet, (these are stairs going down to the basement).

I think at this point, we can tell the problem is the moving middle section between the two skirt boards.

Can i use some framing anchors to secure the treads to the skirtboards? Supporting the two stringers to to floor seems to be some major work and i would try to avoid it. :(



That is bizarre construction. The stringers should be against the wall with one in the middle. You can’t do what I said. Is this space under the stairs another stair down or a closet? Would you be able to support the stringers in the middle down to the floor?

[Dave Zellers]

yeah you could try supporting the treads on the skirt. Maybe just a cleat screwed to the skirt under the tread.

Re supporting the stringers, just a 2x4 from the stringer to the floor.

[Jim Dwight]

Fastening the treads to the skirts more securely is, in effect, trying to use the skirts as another stringer. They are half as thick but still they can take at least a little load. If you want to use them this way, I would fasten them to the studs too.

Supporting the middle of the two stringers does not have to mean a bunch of work. You could pick a stud near the middle of their span and put a couple 2x6s (could even be 2x4s) on their side of the stud tight up against the stringers. Ripping the top of these support pieces at the angle of the stairs would increase contact. This assumes that studs line up on the two sides of the staircase. That might not be the case. In that event, you would need at least one post. Even with two posts I would think this is faster than putting in a whole bunch of screws.

Both could be done but I wouldn't think both would be necessary.

[Forrest Gon]

Thanks guys, I will start with the framing anchors first, will be heading to the box store to get those in a little bit.

Will provide updates soon.

[Forrest Gon]

As promised, here is the update, the stairs now are not squeaky at all now after using framing anchors. I used 6 anchors and they work pretty well. :)

Thanks everyone for the great inputs! I am happy now!
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[Frank Pratt]

As promised, here is the update, the stairs now are not squeaky at all now after using framing anchors. I used 6 anchors and they work pretty well. :)

Thanks everyone for the great inputs! I am happy now!
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Glad you found a solution. Those brackets may, in time, begin to flex & loosen. If so, then some 2x2 blocking, screws, & construction adhesive will fix that.