i don`t have any answers??

[tod evans]

As those of you who have read my posts have probably figured out I know a bit about woodworking and the construction related fields but lately I’ve been concerned about something I know very little about, this global economy world we are heading toward or living in as some folks say. From where I sit it seems as though <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:pAmerica</ST1:p</st1:country-region> is just not producing as we where just a few decades ago. Now I hear talk of intellectual property and of lawsuits defending folks ideas but ideas are only a small part of what it takes to maintain a country of this magnitude, tangible goods are the staple of any economy and just who in the united states is producing these? The farmers of course, the few that are still owned by Americans and the folks who build stuff, houses come to mind as it’s pretty hard to import a house. But our automotive industry is in the sink as is the major portion of our industrial machinery manufacturing. We as a nation are becoming so dependant on foreign manufacturing firms that before to long we will no longer have the ability to institute our ideas. Unlike some of you folks I have the land and equipment to be largely self sufficient even if removed from the “grid” and shut off from petroleum, but you folks who live in the cities and suburbs who move paper or information for a living or even service foreign made equipment what will become of your lifestyle when the foreigners figure out we can no longer survive without their products? I realize that woodworking tools are a very small part of the goods we as a nation consume but from here it seems as though most products are now coming from anywhere but the united states. Well common sense says this cannot continue the world as a whole will not support Americans who don’t produce tangible goods.<O:p</O:p
In my opinion this country is now supported by less than 20% of its population, the folks who produce something you can touch, see or feel. The entire healthcare system as well as the government is supported by these folks. By government I include everyone from senators and the president down to the welfare mother with 5 kids and all of the support systems they require. Health care involves everybody from doctors to insurance companies and all their support systems. None of these folks produce anything that is tangible, none! Well I just can’t see Hop-Sing being content with fish heads and rice while producing the majority of the tangible items we consume? I have ordered the book “The World Is Flat” by Thomas Friedman as a couple folks suggested so I may attempt to educate myself about this global economy but honestly I don’t see how this will change the fact that we don’t manufacture anything ourselves any more, and by the popular sentiment here we shouldn’t either. This really bothers me, and I have no answers…….Tod <O:p></O:p>

[Pete Simmons]

I have often asked "How long before no one in this country knows how to build anything?"

I have a friend who thinks it is a plot to make us completly helpless in 10 to 50 years. He thinks there are countries who will sell to us at a loss to keep this plot going. Maybe he is correct.

It is odd when the ability to run a good search of the web (Google) is worth more in stock than ____________(fill in with large company who builds items) who actually produces something we can see and use that we need.

[Pete Simmons]

Maybe we need more ideas like this.

http://www.laserimagearts.com/images/commonman.jpg

[Jim Becker]

If you look at things from a historical basis, what you are observing is actually to be expected. "Industry" (and technology) have always migrated over time. For example, people and process migration to North America made it possible for industry to develop that didn't exist here before. In the mean time, new ideas, inventions and technologies came into being. As north American workers began to shift from "craft" work to "knowledge" work, the demand for products didn't reduce; rather it increased. Industry processes necessarily migrated to places where there was a work force willing and able to fill the gaps, thus evolving those societies from where they were to a more industrial base.

Japan was a good example of this. "Way back when", Japan was where China is now...or actually was... There was a lot of new mass production to satisfy the desires of consumers in the shifting economies of the west. Early on, "quality" was not what we might consider the best, but over time, that changed and goods produced by Japan and/or its interests are considered top-shelf these days and they in turn, have moved to much more of a knowledge-worker base like we have in the US and Canada. The same happened with Taiwan and continues with China. And it's happening in many other places, too.

That does not excuse us as a society from educating our children and insuring that we remain competitive relative to intelectual property, research and development. The industrial base may be shifting, but we still have the opportunity to insure our own future. The question is...are we willing to do what is necessary to both pay for it and execute on it?

[Dennis Peacock]

Todd,

Many of us have that same exact concern, But like Jim stated? It's just migrating around the globe. I think that China has a plan to pretty much run the U.S. in less than 50 years. With us buying so much "made in China" stuff? They are bidding for petroleum products against us and drving up prices for fuel. Well....let's not get me started on this crap again. China may own our food supplies and farms before long if we aren't careful.

My dad says not to worry, industry is cyclical (sp?)....it'll come back around to the U.S., just may take 100 years before it does.

[John Miliunas]

As Todd states, I too don't have an answer but, it's definitely something which does and has bothered me for a long time. I sincerely believe that we as a country have the intellect, the resources and the staff to produce just about every last item, which is currently imported into this country. Sadly, that's just not happening. This last summer, I realized my poor old USA flag was getting a bit too tattered and I didn't wish to display it in its current shape. I went to 1/2 dozen local retailers looking for one. I came home empty-handed! Oh sure, I found all kinds of different sizes with a number of different poles and mounts. BUT, the majority "proudly" displayed, "Made in China" or, at the very least, "Imported". :mad: I find that in itself offensive and refused to pay my money for one of those flags. That's just wrong on so many levels, it makes me ill. :o

I don't have the answer but, I believe I know the reason we're in the state of affairs we're in: Greed. And sadly, IMHO, that "greed" does not end with the retailers or vendors. It goes right on down to the consumer (us!). We're not willing to work for less $$$ to help produce the products we could otherwise produce, the vendor or OEM is not willing to take less profits for the same products and far too often, we as the consumer are not willing to pay more $$$ for a US made product. That is, of course, if we can even find the same item produced in the US!!! :mad: Heck, when our own American icon, Harley Davidson, imports a boatload of gear for their bikes from Tai/Chi, it really causes one to say, "Hmmmmmmm.....????" :(

I've said it before and I'll repeat myself: Build a mile high wall around the entire North American continent (US/Canada). Before closing off the last section, produce valid North American citizenship papers, or get on the last boat leaving to your country of origin. From that point on, nothing goes out, nothing comes in and, that's to include goods, people or yes, even resources! Like I said, I sincerely believe we have it in us to not only survive, but to flourish. Sure, lots of hard work, but it can be done.:) Ahhhh...but that's all nothing more than a pipedream....:D :cool:

[Bill Webber]

Maybe we need more ideas like this.

http://www.laserimagearts.com/images/commonman.jpg
I copied this into a notebook more than 40 years ago. It was attributed to Dean Alfange then. I found it on line again here:
http://www.americandrumshop.com/DrumCoHistories/ChooseAmerica.html

Bill W.

[Pete Simmons]

Bill:

I have also seen it from a few different sources. I tried at one time to find out some info on Tom Schroeder and/or <!--StartFragment --> Dean Alfange.

Not much luck.

Anyone know anything about these two Americans? Any thoughts on who/where it may have come from?

[Cecil Arnold]

Tod, wish I had an answer but don't. I've seen the blame game played, but most of those arguments don't hold up. If American auto workers can build as good a Honda or Toyota as Japanese workers, then why were GM cars so bad for so long? I have to agree that greed plays a major role, living in Enron's home town really brings that home. To some extent the unregulated free market really seems to have brought greed to new levels. I realize there are two sides to this, but does anyone remember when you paid $6 for telephone service and it included the phone and all necessary repairs, etc. The phone company, being a regulated monopoly, was guaranteed 6-8% return on investment. Yes, they were not very innovative when it came to bringing new products to the marketplace, but Bell Labs did spend a bunch of $$ on R&D.

Well enough or the rambling. I think the problem is much too complex to have a simple solution whether it is building a wall, stopping immigration, of trade embargo's. I'm concerned however about a country goes to war to defend itself when it doesn't even manufacture bullets.

[Dev Emch]

As those of you who have read my posts have probably figured out I know a bit about woodworking and the construction related fields but lately I’ve been concerned about something I know very little about, this global economy world we are heading toward or living in as some folks say. From where I sit it seems as though America:p is just not producing as we where just a few decades ago. Now I hear talk of intellectual property and of lawsuits defending folks ideas but ideas are only a small part of what it takes to maintain a country of this magnitude, tangible goods are the staple of any economy and just who in the united states is producing these? The farmers of course, the few that are still owned by Americans and the folks who build stuff, houses come to mind as it’s pretty hard to import a house. But our automotive industry is in the sink as is the major portion of our industrial machinery manufacturing. We as a nation are becoming so dependant on foreign manufacturing firms that before to long we will no longer have the ability to institute our ideas. Unlike some of you folks I have the land and equipment to be largely self sufficient even if removed from the “grid” and shut off from petroleum, but you folks who live in the cities and suburbs who move paper or information for a living or even service foreign made equipment what will become of your lifestyle when the foreigners figure out we can no longer survive without their products? I realize that woodworking tools are a very small part of the goods we as a nation consume but from here it seems as though most products are now coming from anywhere but the united states. Well common sense says this cannot continue the world as a whole will not support Americans who don’t produce tangible goods.<o ="">:p</o>:p
In my opinion this country is now supported by less than 20% of its population, the folks who produce something you can touch, see or feel. The entire healthcare system as well as the government is supported by these folks. By government I include everyone from senators and the president down to the welfare mother with 5 kids and all of the support systems they require. Health care involves everybody from doctors to insurance companies and all their support systems. None of these folks produce anything that is tangible, none! Well I just can’t see Hop-Sing being content with fish heads and rice while producing the majority of the tangible items we consume? I have ordered the book “The World Is Flat” by Thomas Friedman as a couple folks suggested so I may attempt to educate myself about this global economy but honestly I don’t see how this will change the fact that we don’t manufacture anything ourselves any more, and by the popular sentiment here we shouldn’t either. This really bothers me, and I have no answers…….Tod <o ="">:p></o>:p>
My Dad once said to me that Wallstreet Produces nothing....at the end of the day, it takes the making and selling of something to pay the bills. All wallstreet does is move weatlh around... it does not produce wealth.

Not only was he right but if you guys knew who he was (occupationaly), you all would be very worried. I am the black sheep of my yuppie family and now have to butcher lumber to make a living. So I am just a peon scratching in the dirt like everyone else. But my Dad was someone of note. He knew what he was talking about and his black predictions of the future are now comming true 20 years after his death.

In short, we have lots to be worried about. LOTS TO BE WORRIED ABOUT!

[John Hart]

Tod,
Nice dissertation with lots of valid questions. If you pursue the answers, I'd be very interested to hear what you find. There is a facet that you may want to look at as well....And these are just two examples of a wide spread scenario....Personally...I don't get it.

1. Cotton Growers in South Texas are paid to not grow cotton. The ones that do grow cotton, can export their cotton to India. India can warehouse the cotton and sell it back to the United States a year later for use in the US textile industry. Government bean counters have determined that this is healthy for the economy.

2. Canada was upset that the US put a hold on Canadian cattle imports because of Mad Cow Disease. After much heartache and perserverance, Canadian beef was once again allowed to be shipped to the US. As soon as the ban was lifted, the US complained that Japan hadn't lifted their import ban for US beef because of Mad Cow Disease. So...it's important to ship cows to Japan only when Canada is shipping cows to the US. We obviously don't need the cows but we buy them anyway?

[John Miliunas]

Tod,
Nice dissertation with lots of valid questions. If you pursue the answers, I'd be very interested to hear what you find. There is a facet that you may want to look at as well....And these are just two examples of a wide spread scenario....Personally...I don't get it.

1. Cotton Growers in South Texas are paid to not grow cotton. The ones that do grow cotton, can export their cotton to India. India can warehouse the cotton and sell it back to the United States a year later for use in the US textile industry. Government bean counters have determined that this is healthy for the economy.

2. Canada was upset that the US put a hold on Canadian cattle imports because of Mad Cow Disease. After much heartache and perserverance, Canadian beef was once again allowed to be shipped to the US. As soon as the ban was lifted, the US complained that Japan hadn't lifted their import ban for US beef because of Mad Cow Disease. So...it's important to ship cows to Japan only when Canada is shipping cows to the US. We obviously don't need the cows but we buy them anyway?

Yup, just a couple more things to make a person say, "Hmmmmm...?????":confused: :cool:

[Travis Porter]

I thought you did 2 finger typing?

Unfortunately, I share the same concerns you have and worry about it consistently. Although we seem to focus today on the war on terror in Iraq and other places, I believe we are in a bigger war with China. China does not honor our patents, copyrights, etc and replicates and duplicates everything and does not care. I have a friend in Singapore and they buy every DVD movie out for $1 each. I have read that Walmart is China's third largest export partner. The other 2 are governments. Walmart has seen more publicity on not providing health care, not paying employees overtime, hiring illegal immigrants, and I seem to remember having a majority of its employees on medicaid. I remember when Sam was alive all the Walmart commercials were about made in america and even one where Zebco was saved by Walmart. Those days are over.

I don't think this is Walmart's fault, I think it is our society. It is too easy to have lawsuits for things and corporations/factories end up having to go out of business/bankrupt due to the massive settlements that are paid. If a company knowingly puts its employees at risk is one thing, but if they don't know should they be slapped with punitive damages?

Our trade deficits are scary. I have done some research recently and the only thing keeping the US above water is return on foreign investments from the past. Unfortunately, from what I read, they are continuing to decline so to John's point, China will own all the food and farms before it is over with. We have let China really work us over. They have had most favored nation trade status for so long I can't remember, and they lock their currency to ours to keep their products cheap.

Again, I do not believe this is China's fault, but our own. How can a "service based economy" stay viable internationally? The dollar's value continues to go down which should make US products cheaper internationally, but we are still having trouble. GM, Ford, and Chrysler having trouble really scare me. I remember several years back when GM cut back it caused a lot of layoffs in other areas and industries that provided materials to GM.

I'm rambling. I am concerned, I think greed has a big factor here, and the other factor is being accountable for yourself instead of waiting or demanding a handout. We should be the manufacturing leader in the world with factories running on robotics, automated production facilities, and constant improvements to improve production and reduce costs. The Europeans seem to have done it with Mercedes at a 35 hour week and in general getting 30 days vacation year. Why haven't we?

[Cecil Arnold]

I think Travis has part of it. Instead of investing in robotics which would have required higher paid operators, US industry has sought cheap labor in the form of union give backs and off shore manufacturing. Because of the uncertainty of job security people are afraid to take the time off they already have, so no one is talking about long vacations. When I retired I had 60 vacation days on the books along with 210 sick days. Fortunately I got paid for them.

If you are familiar with Dr. W. Edwards Demming you know that CIP, when offered to Detroit, was sent to Japan. IMHO, too many company officers confuse fiduciary responsibility with showing a profit for the company, when in fact to be a fiduciary is to be a trustee, to do what is best for the company, which would include the long term health of both company and employees. Starting to ramble again.

[Anthony Anderson]

All throughout history great nations have risen, prospered, became complacent (government) in their newfound power and luxuries, and then have fell, or at least have been removed from their once prominent position. A nation's status of prominence in the international community is a cycle. Unfortunately, I don't believe the good ole USA is any different. When our nation shifts from a manufacturing based society/economny to a service/technology based economy, it is supposed to be good for everyone, the people of the USA, China, Taiwan, India, etc. "Everyone Eats" so to speak, not just us. In other words everyone's standard of living increases allowing them to buy more product/service which not only keeps the wheels of the economy spinning, but growing faster. I too subscribe to this idea. What I have a problem with is the rapid rate at which the shift is taking place, and the widening of the gap between the wealthy and poor (ie middle class is shrinking). We are currently experencing a period of economic stability. Housing prices are high, actually inflated, much like other things. People are buying larger homes, everything is good. Is this the calm before the storm? Manufacturers now have a blank check to wrap up their company and leave the US for cheaper labor elsewhere, then bring that product back to the US (free of any significant tariffs) for sale to the people who were once making the product. I believe legislation/legislators has opened the floodgates, and and the manufacturing sector has taken a huge hit (mainly the employees). Now those people were supposed to have been trained in a higher technical field, better paying job, than they had before. But the outflow of our manufacturing base is just happening too quickly. If countries that exported goods to the USA would shut down that flow of imports our country could be economically devistated. We simply produce very little in this country anymore, comparitively speaking. It will be interesting what this country experiences in the next 40-50years. It can go two ways. The next 10-15 years of legislation may determine that outcome. Our current level of spending,(as a country) and our inability to pay it back, also will play a role. We are selling bonds to other countries to finance our current spending!? Just my thoughts, Regards, Bill

[Christopher Pine]

I share many of the concerns you have all expressed.. I do agree with the cyclical idea... kindof like history repeating itself.. I was listening to a radio program recording the other day from 1974 and the newscast at the top of the hour was playing.. They were playing a statement from president of Westinghouse and he said in effect that we all should conserve our gasoline as best we could because at the current rate of consumption we had at most 30 yrs of fuel left. What does this have to do with the discussion at hand? well maybe nothing but point being we as Americans and maybe more so just humans, we deal with the problems at hand and usually (somtimes in spite of ourselves) come up with fairly good solutions to problems.. Yes perhaps this problem is self created but I do have confidence that we will solve these issues one way or another.. Usually in looking back at our problems the solutions are in ways we never thoght of back then.. What was going on in 1974?? Well cars still ran with carbeurators and many other things of that time that did not allow the efficiency and gas mileage that is possible today.. We did not have the oil drilling capability that we do now... The examples could go on and on.. probably explained better by many of you. Point is it is my contention that the availability of oil for gasoline is staggering now compared to 1974... but lots of people belived by now in our time we would be out of fuel....

Great discussion!

Chris

[Frank Chaffee]

Tod,
Being one who has long been involved in production of tangible goods, I share your concerns about our increasing dependence on imported products.


I have ordered the book “The World Is Flat” by Thomas Friedman Tod

Thanks for reminding me about this book. My girlfriend’s mother recommended it a while ago. She is now in her eighties and still gets around the world regularly. Tho not Turkish, she was born in Istanbul. Between her travels, years and extensive reading she has a perspective of the world that far exceeds mine. I don’t recall if she endorsed the ideas presented in this book, but she did suggest that it is important reading right now. I’ll get it.



I have a friend who thinks it is a plot to make us completely helpless in 10 to 50 years. He thinks there are countries who will sell to us at a loss to keep this plot going.


If you look at things from a historical basis, what you are observing is actually to be expected. "Industry" (and technology) have always migrated over time.

Pete,
While I agree that there are shifting patterns of trade in the world today, a plot requires two players; a perp and a mark, or victim.

Today, we who live in the United States and some other places in the world experience historically unprecedented rights of freedom of choice and expression. Along with these rights is the responsibility to choose wisely as consumers, as that is how we in a free market society are voting and investing.

I am concerned about the easily satiated consumer driven economy we are buying into. Wake up, work 35 hours, buy gadgets (soma) on credit, pay minimum balance on card, go back to sleep. But wait!!! Did we ever wake up to begin with???



If American auto workers can build as good a Honda or Toyota as Japanese workers, then why were GM cars so bad for so long?

…And is Detroit’s re-intro of muscle cars the last dying gasp of a dinosaur mode of corporate management? Lest anyone think I am being self righteous here, I admit to having burnt far more than my share of gasoline and left a lot of rubber around curves. If I had more money I would be in Detroit’s targeted market.


... too many company officers confuse fiduciary responsibility with showing a profit for the company, when in fact to be a fiduciary is to be a trustee, to do what is best for the company, which would include the long term health of both company and employees.

Not too long ago (here I go again, reminiscing about the good ole fifties), the difference in pay between the receptionist (who looked a lot like Marilyn Monroe IIRC), and the companies top exec was the merest fraction of what it is today. Today, corporate execs are receiving hundreds of millions of US$ in severance packages and retirement and company stock after having scalped the real investors of their supportive equity in the US and world economies.

As voters in the free world, WE made this happen.

Bob Smalser shows us how to find and use important tools that have already been created in this and other countries.

Dev (yeah, that guy), and lou teach us how to utilize old iron.

Barr Quarton is a modern forger keeping alive ancient and essential tool making methods.

Where will you spend your money tomorrow?

Frank

[Dennis Peacock]

I'm very proud of all of you!!!! :D

This thread has stayed well within bounds and everyone is sharing thoughts and concerns and leaving out politics. Pat yourselves on the back. I love this discussion and I'm learning as I moderate. Ain't this place GREAT or what? :D :cool:

[Anthony Anderson]

They were playing a statement from president of Westinghouse and he said in effect that we all should conserve our gasoline as best we could because at the current rate of consumption we had at most 30 yrs of fuel left. Great discussion!
Chris

Chris, Keep in mind I am not criticizing you, so don't take it the wrong way. But the president of Westinghouse is not an expert on the rate of consumption on fossil fuels. Although it would be interesting to see what the "experts" of the day were saying. You raise a very good point. I know exactly what you are saying. The world has created many problems and then became that much smarter from solving those problems. And usually something new and beneficial was accidentally discovered as a result. Kind of a 'fringe benefit. I think it goes, "Neccesity is the Mother of Invention". Thanks for posting. Regards, Bill

[tod evans]

i was certain that lots of you folks who are wiser than i would chime in, thank you! and as dennis said thanks for keeping this civil and inbounds.
travis, i type with "one" finger! i got in yesterday at 4am and typed that up in word so maybe some of the folks who are put off by my archaic typing ability would respond too. i`m going to head to the shop and deal with issues i`m able to comprehend and see if some of the opinions ya`ll chipped in are able to penetrate my one functional brain cell... thanks, tod

[Alan Shaw]

Here's my 2cent worth. For twenty five years I was in the computer industry. Programmer and a System/Database designer. I thought I would have a job until I retire. Six years ago I was laid-off because my job has now moved to India. How can you compete with a work force making .80 an hour? Even Ross Perrot(sp?) firm is now Headquartered in India.

To keep food on the table and benefits I worked at Lowes. An 80% cut in pay but paid my bills. You learn to live within your means.

Now I work for a custom cabinet dealer as a Designer/Draftmen. The contractor's who I work with are worried about the future. The younger generation are not taught or even given an opportunity to learn about the trades. They are pushed toward college so they earn big money. If all of our technology, manufacturing is going over sea’s were will that big money come from?

The kids today want the big money right away instead of working for it. They do not want anything to do with the trades because of ..... you put your reason's why.

Government, big business, and us as consumers have sold out American and its people. Government by all the rules and regulations on businesses, resulting in the loss of profits.
For public companies wanting all of the profit no matter what it costs( Not necessary money) and the consumer wanting something for nothing (sale) even though it's junk. Remember you get what you pay for.

Big business for wanting more money on the retail side and less money on the cost side. One company I worked for the garments were made here until the 90's at which time 95% of the garments were from overseas. I sweater from oversea was costing then .50 to make they were still selling at 75.00 as if it was made here. The quality was poor but people still bought it.

IMHO I believe if a company wants all of its production to be made off shore, than send the CEO,President of that company over to that country to Live. Not here were he can reap the success of sell-out off of the backs of Americans.

I’m sorry for rambling but we have become a country of followers not leaders as far as business goes. We a so dependent on others for Energy, Goods, etc should the day come that other countries embargo us… were will we be?

Thanks

Alan
God bless American

[Andy Hoyt]

We used to be hunter gatherers.

Now we're shopper borrowers.

[John Miliunas]

Something common which many folks have touched on here is the fact that our own government is making it forever easier for foreign entities to bring their goods (I'm using the term "goods" very loosely here, as much of the stuff is not "good" but, in reality, JUNK!!!) into our country. At the same time, those same foreign governments are helping their own manufacturers to do it. And all at the same time, those people in our own government making all this possible are still making extremely high wages and often investing a large part of those wages into the same companies they are enabling to do this!!! And the real kicker is, those "wages" I refer to are being paid for by none other than US, the American workers!!! :eek: Does anyone else see this as being totally wrong on so many levels as I do??? :confused: :mad: :cool:

[Ken Garlock]

Back in the early 1960's when I was in college, professors were talking about the US becoming a "service economy." If you preach it long enough people begin to believe it. I guess it took about 30-40 years for people really turn that preaching into practice, our version of "New Speak."

[Lee DeRaud]

We used to be hunter gatherers.

Now we're shopper borrowers.Oh my...that one is going straight into my signature.:D

[Christopher Pine]

I agree that he is not an authority (I never said he was)but he as I recall (I was 9) and from reading about that time in our history it was the popular thing that was being said on the news and in commercials etc... Remember "The Club of Rome" they had similiar thoughts on this issue... Are any of them authorities on the amount of fossil fuels? NO. What is the truth about fossil fuels? I don't think we as a general public really know... I tend to think it is not as bad as presented but maybe thats naive maybe not.. anyway thanks for comments..



Chris, Keep in mind I am not criticizing you, so don't take it the wrong way. But the president of Westinghouse is not an expert on the rate of consumption on fossil fuels. Although it would be interesting to see what the "experts" of the day were saying. You raise a very good point. I know exactly what you are saying. The world has created many problems and then became that much smarter from solving those problems. And usually something new and beneficial was accidentally discovered as a result. Kind of a 'fringe benefit. I think it goes, "Neccesity is the Mother of Invention". Thanks for posting. Regards, Bill

[Christopher Pine]

AMEN! This sums up the whole discussion... IF we yes we, spent our money with our supposed values in mind all of the jobs would not be going over seas.. Simplistic? YES that is not all there is too it.. but it would go a long way with this problem in mind.


Where will you spend your money tomorrow?

Frank[/QUOTE]

[Paul Comi]

I wonder how many people like me have ideas of things to produce who after thinking it through come to the conclusion that after they have developed their idea and gone through the hard work to bring it to market somebodywill just knock the idea off and produce it in China for pennies on the dollar.

Even in business like printing, more and more companies are sourcing their high volume print jobs overseas which is fortifying China and draining our manufacturing workforce. Its the lack of equity in business coming back to us that makes the whole thing very shortsighted to me.

I can see why you might feel confused about what to do. On one hand, we're being sold on outsourcing production by saying we're the technology leaders, but the more I see companies outsource their call centers and tech support to India and other countries I think we're being sold on a story. I'm reading Rich Dad, Poor Dad right now and its very timely. If you're concerned about what you make in a job where you're an employee, its time to shift your focus to asset income somehow.

[tod evans]

my impression of both the reason and the cure, is that like most businesses that fail, we as a nation are top heavy. how does any man or group of men object to a government that can vote themselves money and employment?
we used to be a nation who took pride in what we produced, now we take pride in how we negotiate and as john says to not produce. i think the actions and inactions that call for us to be unproductive paper shufflers are wrong! i can sit here in my little woodshop and work my heart out to put beans on the table but to what end if those entrusted with our national welfare are more concerned with lining their own pockets by talking instead of working.
there is no individual person who can change the course we as a nation are taking. but if by posting this thread i have even opened one persons eyes or got somebody talking to their neighbor then i feel i have accomplished something positive this week. thanks for reading, tod

[John Bailey]

Todd,

This has been a very enlightened thread. However, I don't think the premise, or the title, is correct. I don't know you, but from reading your posts I believe you do have answers. Actually, you, I and most of us hear have answers. We're just not sure of the answers anymore, or, as in my case, I'm not able to convey them adequately. Since I don't think I can explain my position, I'll try to give a list of things we all can do to start bringing our culture back to where we would like.


First and foremost, get off our duffs and stop whinning. We are not victims.
Vote for those who have led a common life, not those who claim to know the common life.
Turn off your TV. (Better yet, throw the thing away!)
Give your kids sticks to play with, not toys made of plastic.
Don't listen to marketing hype.
Don't go out to eat, except for speacial occasions.
Get to know your neighbor.
When discussing politics, listen for understanding, not for debate.
Agree to disagree.
Understand, we can only teach our children, they have to do the learning.
Listen to folk music.
Show the courage to fail.
Know that the lessons learned by a reckless teenager souping up a Chevelle are by far more educational than sitting around playing video games.
Scooter Mentality, "Dignity is part of the man, not the machine."

Oh, yea, the best one that comes to mind right now is teach your daughter to rebuild an old pick-up truck. That's cool Todd. I hope this makes some sense. I don't buy the notion we don't have the answers. I just think we need to start living the answers we already know.

As George Buehler, my favourite boat designer, points out in his preface to Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding, "Mose Allison sings a song that has the refrain: 'A young man ain't worth nothing' in the world these days.' Well, that just isn't true, unless you believe it yourself. Sadly, many folks don't seem to know that."

With respect, John

[tod evans]

john, thanks! i live the answers as i see them, it just sickens me that my kids may not have the same freedom to do so. i`m trying in my own little way to open eyes. once again thanks, tod

[Ian Barley]

The UK has been a "service economy" for as long as I have known what the phrase means. More people have a better standard of living here now than was the case when we had more manufacturing industry.

It is a big complicated question and there are, as the heading post says, probably no answers. I fear that I sometimes have a simplistic view but for what they are worth here are some of my general thoughts.

As far as I am aware no two countries who engage in a considerable quantity of free trade have ever got into a hot war between them. It doesn't make sense to kill your customers - even my rudimentary business education has taught me that. If the price of non-conflict between East and West is cheap sneakers it seems like it might be worthwhile.

Most of us have pensions or investments which rely on the profitability of "big Business" for their ability to keep us in our old age. It is a complex mix of emotions when the company you work for retires you early so that it can make enough money to pay the pension funding that is needed to pay your retirment benefits. The very thought of the infinite regresses that this could spark off is giving me a headache.

Always look at it from the converse point of view. I can recall several occasions when a country has achieved some political liberation only for politicians to trumpet to voters the opportunity for new customers that this opens up. China lets people buy cars for the first time - hurrah - Chinese people can now buy American cars. Oh gosh - Chinese people are now selling things to American people in order to make enough money to buy cars which might just be american made or made in a factory owned by american business. If you want the benefits of selling things freely you have to take the risk both ways.

There are jobs which exist in all nations which would not exist if that nation did not have a liberal and free economy enabling the movement of goods and capital. I think that BMW have at least one plant in Alabama? Ford have plants in the UK and have had for many years.

There is a disease in some educators that causes them to think that the only good jobs are ones you can do while wearing a suit. That is why a good tradesman - lets say a plumber - who has 80% of his wits about him can make as much as a middling lawyer and probably work somewhat less. The same disease tends to infect the plumber who believes that employing an apprentice is simply educating his own future competion.

I make stuff. Real things that have solid form and exist even if there is no electric current connected to them. This is very unfashionable and most people who know me and know what I used to do don't understand it. But I think that making stuff is important and gives me great satisfaction. It has only cost me a 75% reduction in income to achieve this and I think it is value for money. Most people don't think that way and as long as that is the case making stuff jobs will go where there are enough people grateful to have them.

I have a competitor who imports product from the far east - Indonesia in fact - and sells it in the UK. he calls gis business "Made On Earth" and I like him and I like the name of his business. I try and catch myself whenever I think of "Chinese" or "Indians" or even "Americans" stealing my business from me and change it to "Humans". It is harder to get worked up about "damned humans selling us shoddy goods"

Sorry for rambling - not really intended to be a coherent thread to that lot - just some random thoughts. Oh - one last one. Read Adam Smith - Wealth of Nations. Its refresging to see that the same things were being talked about in 1776 and hopefully still will be in 2776.

[John Bailey]

Ian,

The last time I was in England for any length of time was in 1976. I was discussing with a Priest that it was our 200th anniversary. He said, "that's a nice start." We were standing in the catacombs of his cathedral that had been there for 1200 years. I guess my point is that whatever comes, in terms of the economy, if we keep our wits about us and stay creative, we'll get through it just fine. Our kids and grand kids will figure it out too.

John

[Scott Parks]

I'm reading Rich Dad, Poor Dad right now and its very timely. If you're concerned about what you make in a job where you're an employee, its time to shift your focus to asset income somehow.

Careful!, use with caution here. Some great ideas, but I "beleive" his story was fabricated from other, older books. Use it wisely to escape the "rat race", but question yourself on the contridictions of this book. Dont quit your day job yet!

[Christopher Pine]

Careful!, use with caution here. Some great ideas, but I "beleive" his story was fabricated from other, older books. Use it wisely to escape the "rat race", but question yourself on the contridictions of this book. Dont quit your day job yet!


Are you saying he lied about his involvement in real estate etc???
Where did you hear this?

[Scott Parks]

After reading the entire thread, I have many comments. However I'm not a master debater, and can not arrange my thoughts into anything that might make logical sense. So here goes...

I agree how Dev (and his father) states that Wall Street is a major transfer of wealth. I know I transferred a significant amount of my wealth into the tech bubble circa 2000-2001. Where did my investment go? Poof, 75% instantly gone??? Simply a transfer of wealth. This is only a beginning of the division of wealth. The wealthy have mastered the technique of creating wealth. Where does it come from? The uneducated investor (speculator) like myself, or the poor class. Over time, the wealthy get richer, and the poor get poorer. The middle class is in a huge transformation - vanishing. So where does the money come from when the poor run out? The government prints more! Then the wealthy capitalize on it again. Hence the rich get richer...etc. There is a story in "The Richest Man in Babylon" (Clason, 1926). Quote:
The Royal chancellor explained it to the King thus:
"....The people have not enough gold to buy food."
"But where has all the gold gone that we spent for these great improvements?" demanded the King.
"It has found its way, I fear" responded the Chancellor, "into the posession of a few very rich men of our city. It filtered through the fingers of most of our people as quickly as the goat's milk goes through the strainer. Now that the stream of gold has ceased to flow, most of our people have nothing to show for their earnings."
Then he asked, "Why should so few men be able to acquire all the gold?"
"Because they know how," resonded the Chancellor......

Is America just going through a transformation of wealth, such as acient Babylon? Are the Chinese capitalizing on our "afluenza"? Americans spend spend spend, consume, consume, consume. Our money filters through our fingers just as quickly. Have we as people have simply lost the value of things. For example I was just telling my co-worker today of a parking lot incident I saw recently. A woman driving a nearly new, nice, car got out and majorly door banged the car next to her. She then proceeded to gather stuff from the car. The whole time her door was rubbing and banging the adjacent car. My first thought was no respect for anothers property. But then I conluded that because we live in a disposable society, people have no value to their posessions. (ahem, I mean bank owned). It makes me sick to get a new scratch in my car, yet others don't care.

But back on track to the topic at hand, China is not at fault. They are simply capitalizing on opportunity. (As america had evolved over the last several hundred years) Any wise man will take advantage of opportunity. Why not? Would you pass up an easy [I]calculated buck? I don't think so. What drives this desire? Greed. So my question is, what can we do as a nation to reap this same opportunity? At least we're not communist. Like others said, it may just be a global economic transformation, as the US was very prodigious in the development of the industrial age.

We need to teach our kids value, responsibility, and how to generate their own wealth. I mean, after all the majority won't be able rely on government or employers to take care of them. Pensions? Where does that money come from? ...Transfered wealth?

my two pennies.....

[Dennis Peacock]

Americans spend spend spend, consume, consume, consume. Our money filters through our fingers just as quickly. Have we as people have simply lost the value of things.

We need to teach our kids value, responsibility, and how to generate their own wealth. I mean, after all the majority won't be able rely on government or employers to take care of them. Pensions? Where does that money come from? ...Transfered wealth?

my two pennies.....

Scott,

Right on Buddy!!!!!!!!!!! My wife and I are doing our level BEST to get as far OUT of debt as we possibly can. It takes a very strong desire to overcome the pressures of the media, surrounding people who live like they have an endless supply of money in the bank for us to keep focused on our personal goal of getting out of Consumer Debt. It's HARD to hang on to what money we do earn.!! Don't belive me? Make a very concious effort to see how FAST your money leaves your pockets and bank account on or just after payday. DAMHIKT!!!!

Agree....teach your kids about money. Teach them about credit cards and how dangerous they "can" be. Teach them to help themselves, to save money no matter how little it seems now, and to be someone that loves people. Teaching our kids to do car work, woodworking, washing cloths, cooking, cleaning, and to take an idea and run with it...no matter if it's a flop. Learn from the "flop" and apply that new knowledge to the next attempt at an idea.

Thanks for your post.

[Dennis Peacock]

<i>Are you saying he lied about his involvement in real estate etc???
Where did you hear this?</i>

Ok....let's end the rumors and such. We are going to go "there". Ok?

Not picking on anyone here.....just had to pick a "point" to make a "point". ok?

Let's keep the thread on track....we were starting to veer off trace here a bit.

[Scott Parks]

Are you saying he lied about his involvement in real estate etc???
Where did you hear this? RDPD has absolutely nothing to do about real estate, yet readers are led to beleive it.

Disclaimer: did you notice I "believe" in quotes? Did I say he lied? ;) Sorry Chris, don't take this personal, I'm not picking on you.:) Just defending myself. Because of what I wrote, were you subconsiously beleiving that I "heard" this somewhere?

Are you inferring that "he" is wealthy from real estate? Or is "he" wealthy from creating a "best seller" book, and a cult following based on a trademark intellectual property, thus planting seeds into the readers self consious to beleive what ever they want to beleive.... Thus making a reader think his fortune is in real estate? :eek: Can I infer something that makes you think I am something I am not, ten times exaggerated? BTW, if you want to seek some REAL real estate investing advice, I can point you in the right direction for research....

Does this imply I am a RE tycoon worth $$$? (truth is, far from it). Am I playing with your mind yet, such as the author of said book??? Get my point...;)

Did the said person in Hawaii really exist? I don't know, that's for you to decide. If there was such a person, there would be public record of such real estate, and 'beach' properties. Also, is the said auther listed with the SEC as a major shareholder in multiple corporations? It's a waste of my time to research and find out.

All I'm trying to say, is read between the lines, and make your own conclusions. The author never 'claimed' anything, just led you to "believe".

[Scott Parks]

Are you saying he lied about his involvement in real estate etc???
Where did you hear this?

Ok....let's end the rumors and such. We are going to go "there". Ok?

Not picking on anyone here.....just had to pick a "point" to make a "point". ok?

Let's keep the thread on track....we were starting to veer off trace here a bit.
Point taken, Dennis. No offense. Sorry, but I was in the middle of a strategically planned rebuttle of my position, and clicked submit before reading this.

BTW, I don't beleive I started a rumor.....

Funny how threads morph into something... But this is interesting, (and may be the key to our kids future:rolleyes:)

It takes a very strong desire to overcome the pressures of the media, surrounding people who live like they have an endless supply of money in the bank for us to keep focused on our personal goal of getting out of Consumer Debt.
You're not refering to the temptions to buy expesive tools and way more than you need? SMC feeds the desire for me to spend.... :)

[Dennis Peacock]

Point taken, Dennis. No offense. Sorry, but I was in the middle of a strategically planned rebuttle of my position, and clicked submit before reading this.

BTW, I don't beleive I started a rumor.....

Funny how threads morph into something... But this is interesting, (and may be the key to our kids future:rolleyes:)

No problem Scott. And point well taken here as well. Thanks!!!

[tod evans]

Everybody who has read this and those who contributed, I’d like to say thanks! The reason I even posted this drivel on S.M.C. in the first place is because I noticed a trend of the folks here to jump on a tool bargain or perceived deal like ants attacking spilled sugar. Frank Chaffe made some very valid points when he closed in his post about folks teaching all of us how to create with what we have or what is already in existence and where we spend our monies. John Bailey really hit home with me as for how I choose to live my life, I’d never seen it put into print, once again thanks John! Ian your phrase “made by humans” gives me new perspective on imports but doesn’t change my feelings that we as a nation must produce again. Scott I in no way delude myself by thinking anything said here will affect any of our kids future, most folks, even if they read and understand both the obvious and inferred messages in this thread are going to resume life as they choose to live it when they turn off their computer. Dennis the whole nation would be better off if just some of the folks accepted responsibility as you and your wife are doing. <O:p</O:p
For the folks reading who are looking at new or upgraded tools please give thought to what economy and which people you are supporting with your dollars, instant gratification does have a cost.<O:p</O:pFor myself I will continue to build whatever presents itself to the best of my ability and have fun doing it. Tod <O:p</O:p

[Paul B. Cresti]

I have a short story that parallels the thoughts of this thread. Currently (until my own endeavors are self sustaining) by day, I work in a very large A&E firm. I do beleive it is either number 3 or 4 in the world in the work we produce. This is my first job in a firm this large as I have always been in small 10-15 max places. This office has more managers, project directors, project Architects, Engineers..... than you can shake a stick at. The funny thing is when I ask who is doing the drafting..... it still comes down to one or two guys! Every one is a chief in this place yet no one wants to be responsible for anything. Layoffs seem to be a yearly thing here also. They gear up for a big project or some influx of work only to release those people once things get a little slower or appear to be headed that way. It makes me sick to be a part of it but unfortunately I have to be for the time being.

I am not the "normal" Architect being that I enjoy, know how to or am willing to learn how to and want to actually make things with my own hands. I am just plain shocked at how many Architects, Engineers, or so called designers have no idea at all on how to actually build something. I think this mirrors just about every job or profession in our country. Many people no longer want to be involved in the actual creation of items or goods but yet want the credit or benefit of what others have done for them. As a society we have become "fat, dumb and happy".

I struggle every day in my pursuit of my business. When I got layed off about two years ago I went at this ww'g thing full time. Unfortunately I was not able to produce enough to sustain us. I am still going at it though as I have a mission, a passion and am just plain stubborn. I am an Architect and a Woodworker at heart, the two are inseparable. It is not what I do but whom I am. I have not met anyone to date that shares the same passion as I have that is not older than I, maybe that says something about where our society is heading. I, as most of you, have no answers to our discussions here but I do have one thing to add.... when things were really getting tough for us my wife gave me a little desk paper weight that has a quote on it, "never, never, never give up" guess who said it not an American but, Winston Churchill.

[Ian Barley]

.... when things were really getting tough for us my wife gave me a little desk paper weight that has a quote on it, "never, never, never give up" guess who said it not an American but, Winston Churchill.

Paul - if it makes you feel any better his mother was American and I suspect that her character may have had more than a touch of influence in his.

[John Bailey]

I think Paul's right. We've gotten to the point that we, as a nation, don't like doing things ourself anymore. Decades ago I used to go to a little Ozark town called Mt. View. There wasn't much there back then. However, every night you could show up in the town square and play music till about midnight. They had a way of using the word "music" there. I'm not sure they meant it, but I noticed it. They would say they were going to "listen to music" when the music was live. If they were going to listen to music on the radio, or stereo, they would say, "I'm going to listen to the radio." Everybody played, sang, or danced. I think our culture would be better off if we got to doing things again. It doesn't matter what or how good you are. I heard some downright awful musicians down in the Ozarks, but they had character and soul, and they were happy. I'm afraid that's what we're losing.

John

[Paul B. Cresti]

I was doing some more thinking today.... yea I know that is a bad thing to do... but anyway here is some more thoughts on this. This country is now begining to the road of approaching the road to failure because of our past successes. Let me explain. When my parents immigrated to this country from Italy they had absolutley nothing. My mother came over on a troop transport ship during the war and my father came over about 10 years later. They only thing they owned was what they carried. They all started from scratch in a country that they knew absolutely nothing about other than the opportunities that were here. They learned the language (do not get me started on that one) and joined the society. My grandparents worked hard in factories and the such. My parents educated themselves and my father went on to eventually get a masters in Chemistry. Their success in their lives gets passed onto my generation. Now I did not have the struggles they had until now (and this is mild compared to what they went through). I have kind been spoiled because of their giving back to their children. Now my sister and I am better educated and better prepared for this world because of them. Keep compounding this from generation to generation and everyone is spoiled...... no one knows what true hardship is and what true work means.

What happens if we all have these big cushy lives? What happens if as a society we do not instill in our children that we need to aspire to more and try to continually better ourselves? Will we a very young nation look at the progess and lack of that has transpired throughout the world and learn from it?

What do you guys think is there any merit in my lines of thinking?

[tod evans]

i think everybody who has contributed on this thread and lots of the readers are on track.. only by having a sence of pride in ourselves and what we produce,whether it`s music or sculpture, can we begin to grow again. each one of us who builds things are setting an example for the members of our family and our community. we are doing something! and we have something to show for what we`ve done. i wonder in this day in age how many folks can hold something in their hands and say " i made this" ? this sense of self worth and accomplishment is exactly how this country got where it was three decades ago. if each of us would try to support the folks right here at home who are producing quality products i think that would offer more incentive for large businesses to produce here instead of on foreign shores..it would also make it much easier for the up and coming generation to start and run their own businesses here. it`s only by our actions that we can support or sink our manufacturing economy and over the course of the last few decades we have been sinking it. i`ll bet youngsters like paul who have a vision and are willing to work for and sacrifice for it are few and far between? that`s really a shame and it`s something we can do something about.....if we want to. tod