I forgot how much I hate my biscuit joiner.

[Rick Potter]

Used my PC biscuit joiner last night to align the already made face frame with the carcass of a kitchenette cabinet. It made me re-evaluate my relationship with Norm, who sold me on them.

It was ok when doing the inside panels, laying face down on the bench with the joiner solidly on it's base, but doing the slots inside the FF, with the joiner standing upright, I simply could not keep it from rocking, and creeping. I put a scrap under the part of the base that was unsupported, and a screw on fence but it still rocked.

Never used the fence, and it was folded up and tightened but I think the rocking was because the folded fence didn't line up exactly with the base like it should.

It also creeped, despite my making sure the sandpaper anti creep was in good shape, so I used a wooden stop to keep it from creeping to the left. It helped, but I am not happy at all.

I was going to use T&G to align the sides for adding drawer slides, but forgot and glued up the FF (previous post on shortening screwed up FF) after taking a trip where I seem to have left all the plans in my head. So I decided I would just line them up with biscuits. Phhhhhht.

Last time I used it was ten years ago. Next time NEVER.
Anybody wanna buy a biscuit joiner?

[Warren Lake]

indispensable tool. On my second lamello even though the first was fine. No interest in knock off companies. Paid for itself 10 times over, over many years. Worked for a guy in 82 or 83, maybe the first guy in Canada to have one not sure, had never seen one before him.

[Ron Selzer]

Once again buying cheap doesn't work
Learned on a Lamello in the 80's on the job, have owned a PC and sold it, own a DeWalt and Ryobi
Should have bought a Lamello and been done with it. Keep refusing to spend the money and keep on being disappointed.
Ron

[Warren Lake]

I also like to honour the people that came up with it.

[Jim Becker]

I've never been overly fond of mine, but there are times when it's the best tool for the job at hand. (I have an old Freud 102)

[Edwin Santos]

Sorry you had a frustrating time.
But add me to the club of people who consider their biscuit joiner an indispensable tool. Mine is a Lamello, but I upgraded from the PC 557 which was very good also.
One thing that took my biscuit joinery to a new level was an idea from a FWW article to build a bench on bench jig where you can bolt down the biscuit joiner and basically turn it into a stationary tool when it is advantageous to do so. I use mine all the time, and the accuracy is superb because now there is no more movement in the tool itself. I can find the article and link it if you're interested.

Also, I only use Lamello biscuits because the quality control is much better and they always fit snugly. Adequate glue is important also because the biscuits themselves suck up glue and can leave the joint starved.
For some reason the biscuit joiner is the tool so many North American woodworkers love to hate.
Anyway, hope this is useful info to someone.
Edwin,

[Jacob Mac]

I hated mine until I got a Lamello. Use it a lot, now. I started following Darrel Peart on Instagram and saw how much he uses one, so I thought I should reconsider and am glad I did. Now if only I was 1/3 as talented as he.

[Derek Cohen]

It also creeped, despite my making sure the sandpaper anti creep was in good shape, so I used a wooden stop to keep it from creeping to the left. It helped, but I am not happy at all.

Rick, the question must be asked, “why did it creep?”. If the biscuit jointer did not creep, would that make it better?

In my experience, creep is caused by the rotation of the cutter when the machine is pressed against the work piece and then started. I never get creep if I start the machine (mine is a DeWalt), and then - gently - press it against the work piece. If the cutter is up to full speed, it just cuts into the wood at this point.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Cary Falk]

I have a Porter Cable 557 and a Ryobi mini. Love them both. Use them a lot.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Also in the Lamello camp. Have had it for over 20 years and still going strong. And I always use Lamello biscuits. It always pays to buy the best quality you can afford.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I have a PC, don't recall the number. I had a Skil before that, it was OK but the PC is much better. I bought them both used, at different auctions. I don't use mine all the time, but now and then when I am doing a glue-up for a table or a face frame I am very glad I have it. I've only ever used mine on wood that was sitting flat on a work table, so I don't know how hard it would be to use in other situations.

[Richard Coers]

I'm a Elu guy myself. Made tens of thousands of dollars using it when I was in business. Wore one out, bought a second and kept going. When I heard about the pivoting Elu being discontinued, I bought a 3rd. It's unused and still in the steel box. Going to be an unusual item on my estate sale some day. 40+ new old stock, I hope. LOL

[Eric Arnsdorff]

I'm a fan of the biscuit joiner as well. I have a 20-25 year old Craftsman Pro unit and it is solid. The comment about the starting torque causing it to jump is something I had to learn but when held firmly I have no issues with it.
I don't know anything about the PC unit so I can't speak to how it compares.
I'm on the verge of buying a Festool Domino so I'll see if it replaces my biscuit joiner.

[andy bessette]

Once again buying cheap doesn't work...

This. Cheap doesn't payoff in the end. Love my Lamello Top 10.

[Kevin Jenness]

I use a biscuit joiner for cabinetwork all the time without the problems you are having. The Porter Cable will do an acceptable job if used correctly.

I use the fence whenever possible, normally set to a 3/4" gauge block so the dimension from fence to cutter is consistent, and use shims for offsets. When joining face frames to carcasses, I grip the frame in the bench vise so that I can plunge in with the joiner horizontal, carefully registering the fence and front of the machine square to the stock and plunging at a moderate pace with a sharp cutter. The decks are typically 1/32" offset from the inside of the frame so I use a shim under the fence. Any other offsets are handled with an appropriate shim.

Referencing off the base is used mainly for interior partitions, where the leg of the t is clamped at its location and slots cut in its end and the face of the mating piece. Working off the base for the task you were doing is harder because both the jointer and the workpiece have to be held firmly against a reference surface.

Like others, I use Lamello biscuits for consistency. I have a Virutex jointer that has served well, but if it gives out before I do it will be replaced with a Lamello Zeta.

I have a Domino 500 and it is a great machine but it has not replaced my biscuit joiner.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I have an old Lamello Top I got used that is probably as old as I am (34) and still going strong.

It gets a lot of use, is accurate and I own a Domino 500 which also gets plenty of use.

A quality made biscuit joiner is a very valuable tool to have around for cabinet making in particular. Solves a lot of joinery “problems” quickly and with appropriate strength and precision.

[Sean Nagle]

I love my Lamello biscuit joiner. I wish my Domino XL performed as well as the Lamello.

[John Gornall]

For small work including face frames I use the Veritas mini bisquits from Lee Valley. The slot is cut with a slotting bit in your router table - precise.

[Walter Plummer]

It has worked well before? It is just a saw and my first suspect would be the blade. Is it caked up with pitch and dust or maybe just finally dull? Try cleaning it off and touch it up with a diamond hone and try it. Good luck

[David Zaret]

nearly every detail kevin mentioned also applies to me. in addition to the 557, i also have a dewalt, and i have the fences on each "fixed" - on the 557, i have it set so that the offset between the base and the groove is equal to the fence position and the groove so that i can use either reference. the dewalt is set 3mm higher to give me a 3mm overhang of face frames to the box (something i do with my case construction). the Zeta and domino are used all the time, in different situations. but, the biscuit cutters are easily accessed and constantly used.





I use a biscuit joiner for cabinetwork all the time without the problems you are having. The Porter Cable will do an acceptable job if used correctly.

I use the fence whenever possible, normally set to a 3/4" gauge block so the dimension from fence to cutter is consistent, and use shims for offsets. When joining face frames to carcasses, I grip the frame in the bench vise so that I can plunge in with the joiner horizontal, carefully registering the fence and front of the machine square to the stock and plunging at a moderate pace with a sharp cutter. The decks are typically 1/32" offset from the inside of the frame so I use a shim under the fence. Any other offsets are handled with an appropriate shim.

Referencing off the base is used mainly for interior partitions, where the leg of the t is clamped at its location and slots cut in its end and the face of the mating piece. Working off the base for the task you were doing is harder because both the jointer and the workpiece have to be held firmly against a reference surface.

Like others, I use Lamello biscuits for consistency. I have a Virutex jointer that has served well, but if it gives out before I do it will be replaced with a Lamello Zeta.

I have a Domino 500 and it is a great machine but it has not replaced my biscuit joiner.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Last time I used it was ten years ago. Next time NEVER.
Anybody wanna buy a biscuit joiner?

That's pretty much how I feel about my Domino 500. buying another Lamello soon though.

[Mark Bolton]

When you dont like a tool, regardless of what it is, your approach will always leave you blaming the tool when all you really have to do is make the choice to change your approach. Junk is of course junk but the PC/Dewalt/Etc are all plenty capable for what they are intended to do. Its one of those things where you unfortunately just have to boil it down to operator error which I do on pretty much a daily basis including right now as Im re-cutting a bunch of parts on the CNC that GIGO blessed me with not completing a bit of stuff for myself this weekend that should have went off without a hitch.

[Derek Cohen]

I have a Domino and a Biscuit Jointer. The DeWalt is used with the fence and the Festool with a Seneca plate.

Dominos for morticing; biscuits for splines.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jack Frederick]

I have the PC biscuit machine. It has been challenging and some points in this post have been helpful. I am very careful when setting up. I have gotten better results over time but when a problem arises it is always, “hmmm, where did I screw up?”

[Frank Pratt]

I've had a Lamello for 20 years & I've never been disappointed with it. I've been disappointed in myself for using it improperly from time to time (like cutting into a nail more than once). I won't say it's indispensable, but when building with sheet goods, it's the bee's knees.

[Jim Dwight]

I have an old Skil biscuit joiner. Absolutely terrible fence. Plastic. But the manual suggested making wooden blocks of varying thickness to set the fence with. I made a big set out of scrap and they are incredibly useful for many things around the shop. I have them from 1/8 to at least 1 1/4 by 1/16th of an inch. Setting the fence with the block it works pretty well. But dominos installed with my XL are my go-to aid these days. Even for edge to edge alignment dominos work better than biscuits for me. Some of that is probably just the fact the domino is the newer machine for me.

Both tools require a smooth steady feed rate. If I rush either, the tool does not work nearly as well.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Mine is used infrequently, but like other isindispensable (https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=AOaemvKyCGXBbBCdDAHE7TgvRGKYp-y7MQ:1631577545056&q=indispensable&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjR-Pv_k_3yAhXaJDQIHRRuC7IQkeECKAB6BAgBEDA) for simple 90 degree joinery where the project does not call for dowels or mortise and tenons. Cabinet face frames come to mind. Yes, mine often takes off, so I do have to take care to firmly hold it against the piece and hold the fence down to the piece as well. Left-Right there is some play, so that is good, but Up-Down, there is none, so I set the fence with care and hold it down firmly.

[Curt Harms]

I had trouble with alignment when cutting slots where I was resting the fence on the edge of 3/4" plywood. It was too easy to not keep the machine 90* to the work and as a result the slot would be slightly off. The pieces would go together but the alignment would be slightly off due to the biscuits being angled. I took a piece of scrap 2 X 4 and jointed two adjacent faces. Clamp the 2 X 4 to the 3/4" ply and now instead of a 3/4" edge I had a 2+" edge. The machine was not nearly as prone to rocking so slots were accurate.

[Charles Lent]

I added a piece of 1/4" plywood to the fence of my DeWalt biscuit joiner to enlarge it's surface area. It's about 6" X the width of the joiner. The extended fence gives me more surface area to slide along the surface of my work and help keep the joiner positioned correctly and at 90 deg to the edge of the work. This fence extension is bolted on, so it's easy to remove/replace when necessary. Easy to make and a significant improvement.

Charley

[Ron Citerone]

I bought a used PC bisquit joiner on CL years ago. Used it a lot at first and then not so much. I would not get rid of it, occasionaly it seems like the best option for a situation.

[Edwin Santos]

I have always wondered where the assumption developed that the primary use of biscuits is for alignment. I don't know how many times I've read the comment that "biscuits are for alignment but add no strength".

Lamello invented biscuit joinery. If you go to their website and look at any of the demonstration videos, you will see them demonstrate lots of corner joint applications, T joints, face frame attachment, reinforced miters.
What you will never see them demonstrate is biscuits in a long grain edge glue up.
Not that you can't use them this way, but it's just not an application where they are particularly special.

Sometimes it's easier to take the tool to the work, especially if the workpiece is large. Here's a good way to use a biscuit joiner to insert a spline in a mitered picture frame:

464820

[Von Bickley]

I have the Dewalt and while I don't use it a lot, it's there when I need it and it does what I expect.

[Jim Becker]

Edwin, I don't disagree with you. Biscuits do contribute some strength to certain kinds of joinery (when properly used like any method) and don't inherently have major effect on others, like the long grain edges of a panel glue up. For that latter, I still like them or similar (Domino) for keeping one face in alignment as it cuts down on other work necessary to finish those panels out, be it a table top or a cabinet door panel. They are not "needed" for sure. It's just a helpful preference. I've found them helpful for vertical registration of face frames, too.

[Rick Potter]

As Charles suggested, I had made a wooden screw on fence to hold and align the joiner when used in the upright position on the face frames. No problem at all with the cabinet sides which were face down flat on the bench, as was the joiner.

Yesterday I put a straight edge along the face of the joiner, and it is not flat with the base where the anti slip tape is installed. This is why it rocks when using it upright. I find no way to adjust it. When using it upright, I used a piece of cutoff FF material to give it more wood to sit on, but I found that a slightly thicker piece kept it from rocking.

I was afraid that the slightly thicker piece, even though it didn't rock, might make the joiner sit at a slight angle, so I decided to use the correct thickness piece. Obviously that was a bad decision. Hindsight decisions are a b****.

I hope this better explains the problem I had with the sloppy cuts in the face frame. I had never previously used it upright before, only using it for edge joining.

[Warren Lake]

some photos would be nice of what you are doing never added a thing to a lamello to make it work better took the spring loaded pins off and covered the face with stick on auto body paper. It stays put much better than how it came. Edge to edge is not needed and its also not as accurate as you hand lining up your boards. Typical on edge to edge joining you will find bang on up to .005 off on the high side of boards not being perfectly flush.

[Jim Dwight]

The reason that biscuits add little strength is their size and shape. A #20 penetrates a maximum of 1/2 inch into both pieces and that is the peak. So it is a small glue joint. The biscuit is also only about 1/8 thick. So it is not a very strong piece of wood. Lastly it is used across the grain. So the long direction of the biscuit is along the grain and the biscuit will split under not a lot of load.

They have their place but not in a joint that sees significant load.

[Kevin Jenness]

The reason that biscuits add little strength is their size and shape. A #20 penetrates a maximum of 1/2 inch into both pieces and that is the peak. So it is a small glue joint. The biscuit is also only about 1/8 thick. So it is not a very strong piece of wood. Lastly it is used across the grain. So the long direction of the biscuit is along the grain and the biscuit will split under not a lot of load.

They have their place but not in a joint that sees significant load.

Biscuits actually have diagonal grain for this reason. A #20 biscuit has about as much glue surface as a 6x40mm domino. Granted they don't penetrate as deep, but they can supply sufficient strength in many situations.

Here's a shop cart with 1 1/2" plywood decks and upright joined with a double rows of #20 biscuits. I can easily put 100 bd ft of hardwood on it without any fear of failure.464855

[andy bessette]

The reason that biscuits add little strength is their size and shape. A #20 penetrates a maximum of 1/2 inch into both pieces and that is the peak. So it is a small glue joint. The biscuit is also only about 1/8 thick. So it is not a very strong piece of wood. Lastly it is used across the grain. So the long direction of the biscuit is along the grain and the biscuit will split under not a lot of load.

They have their place but not in a joint that sees significant load.

All simply untrue. The grain on the biscuit is at an angle, so is not prone to splitting. And, though thin, biscuits add a lot of strength because of their large surface area.

[Edwin Santos]

The only time I've seen a biscuit joint fail was one that was glue starved. Because the biscuit itself sucks up glue, you have to use a liberal amount IMO. I have had to knock apart something that was held together with biscuits once and it was amazing how tenaciously they held.

I'm not saying they're "better" than other types of joinery.
A mortise and tenon or dowel joint is empirically stronger, but I am saying biscuit joints are stronger than many people think. And in certain situations they are good to have in your arsenal.

[Eric Arnsdorff]

Rick it appears you found what was causing the issue. At one point I was having some issues with mine causing a height alignment issue. I can't recall the specific thing I found (it has been many years) but luckily with mine it was correctable by design of the tool and it gives excellent results. Hopefully, you can get yours flat.

Mention of a biscuit joint seems to beg the joint strength discussion. I'm pleasantly surprised to see both the number of people that support using the biscuit jointer as well as those who also see that it can provide good strength when applied properly.

I used mine to make a projector screen frame many years back. It had end grain to long grain connections in 2x4 pine material (planed and jointed). I used 2 biscuits for the connections. It certainly made since to use the biscuit jointer for this application as it only held the screen material pulled tight and stapled on the back. It didn't need a great deal of strength. However, when I retired my projector for a LCD big screen I took the screen apart. Knowing it had biscuit joints I thought I'd easily knock it apart. I'm not a small guy and am in pretty good shape. I ended up with my 5# hammer to break it apart and several of the end grain to long grain joints broke the wood away from the joint (also a plug for the popular glue study of late). That's the only unscientific study I've done but it was good enough to convince me that biscuits can be used in a lot of situations for strong joints. I certainly wouldn't use it for high joint stress applications but they are "strong".

[Frank Pratt]

The reason that biscuits add little strength is their size and shape. A #20 penetrates a maximum of 1/2 inch into both pieces and that is the peak. So it is a small glue joint. The biscuit is also only about 1/8 thick. So it is not a very strong piece of wood. Lastly it is used across the grain. So the long direction of the biscuit is along the grain and the biscuit will split under not a lot of load.

They have their place but not in a joint that sees significant load.

Biscuits do not have the strength of a big M&T joint, but make no mistake, with proper usage they make a very strong joint. I've tried breaking apart case goods that were biscuit joined & doing so completely destroys the plywood on both side of the joint. I wouldn't use them to join a 2" x 6" stretcher to legs, but neither would I use tiny M&T's and expect them to hold.

[Zachary Hoyt]

At least some of the biscuits I have used had diagonal grain, which would seem to address the issue of splitting. I thought they were all made that way, but of course I have not tried all the biscuits in the world.

[Curt Harms]

Biscuits do not have the strength of a big M&T joint, but make no mistake, with proper usage they make a very strong joint. I've tried breaking apart case goods that were biscuit joined & doing so completely destroys the plywood on both side of the joint. I wouldn't use them to join a 2" x 6" stretcher to legs, but neither would I use tiny M&T's and expect them to hold.

Agreed. Biscuits were originally intended to join sheet goods quickly and cheaply. From Lamello's web site:


Since the dawn of the company – in those days a cabinetmaker's shop – the search for radically new ideas, continuous improvements and system solutions has stood at its core, as has Hermann Steiner with his revolutionary idea that marked the start of the company as we know it:

“It was on a cold and rainy day in December 1955, shortly before Christmas. We had to deliver numerous small joinery goods, which we had prepared for Christmas meeting the requirements of our customers in our joiner’s workshop. Fonci, the truck driver in Liestal, was responsible for the transport. Storm, snow and rain did not make things easier. We needed all our strength and accuracy to prevent water damaging these Christmas presents. Back home, my ears started to hurt.

Obviously, I had caught a cold again. My wife gave me some painkillers and I went to bed with the comforting thought that this hurry was over now. But when I woke at midnight, it was like a dream. My thoughts had strayed from my pain to another important problem, which I had considered a couple of times before. Like other cabinet makers we had started using particle board and were encountering difficulties in joining the panels. Down with fever, I suddenly saw a practical approach to the problem, which made me forget everything else. I saw how we could use a groove cutter to cut short opposing grooves into the panels and connect them using small biscuit elements. In contrast to continuous grooves, this procedure would not weaken the board. My wife thought I had visions due to the fever but I myself was entirely convinced of my idea.”

In an unprecedented fashion, Hermann Steiner's innovative idea reached many joiners around the world and the name Lamello has since become synonymous with this high-quality joining solution. In 2004, the invention was honoured along with other innovations as part of a special exhibition at the Museum of Modern Art (Moma) entitled "the most humble innovations of the 20th century".

https://www.lamello.com/about-us/history/

Note that the original use was for particle board cabinetry, not as a replacement for mortise & tenon joinery.

[Charles Lent]

On the DeWalt, and maybe some other biscuit joiners, there are two multi pointed screw heads in the face at either end of the slot that the blade comes through. These are spring loaded to extend out beyond the face of the tool and help to keep the joiner from moving as the cuts are made. They cut into the wood surface a tiny bit and I haven't so far found this to be objectionable, but they can be turned about 90 degrees to be locked in the retracted position if their use is not wanted. I have always left mine extended and they do help to hold the joiner on position during the plunge cut, but after reading all of this I've been wondering if some of you even know about these? Do you have them on your biscuit joiner? Do you use them? Careful positioning and holding that position as the plunge is made is very important to getting good results with a biscuit joiner.

Charley

[Rick Potter]

Hi Charley,

Mine does not have that feature. Wish it did, but not a game changer, it's the rocking when upright that causes my problem. It was the best one available when I got it, in the Norm era. Didn't consider the Lamello, as it was too expensive to even wish for.

My first one was a cheap Ryobi, and the PC was a giant step up.

[Curt Harms]

That's a good point Charles. The Porter Cable 557 doesn't have the points. I usually have the fence horizontal and use the fingers on my left hand to block the fence as I plunge. There is a tendency for the machine to move left when plunging. The type 2 Porter Cable machines had a problem with the fence-base intersection due to a patent problem with DeWalt. A company called the fly-by-night copper company made a shim to address this problem. The shim was coated with a coarse grit which also helped prevent the machine moving. That does a pretty good job of preventing the machine moving left as I plunge. Plunging slower would also be helpful.

[Warren Lake]

post 35. You dont need the pins, stick on sandpaper.

[Rick Potter]

OK, I just checked it again.

It is a PC 557, type 1 model. It has the original sandpaper on the slot area, and it is good shape.

I put a straight edge across the blade slot and there is a definite gap on the left 2/3 of the slot area, looking down on it. The right side is better, but you can easily feel that the sandpaper is below the sides of the fence in the folded up position.

No new model is in the works for me, so I will have to remember to put a thin cardboard shim in that area when I use it vertically.

Thanks for all the advice folks.

[Warren Lake]

Rick here is what I meant. 20 years on first lamello sold as I thought it was worn. New one the same, operator technique.

Pins out and think rubber bumpers nd maybe rubber bumpers not looking, then stick on sandpaper. Sandpaper should have been replaced long ago ago but just kept using it that way. had taken more care on the first one slicing it off back at an angle at all edges.

464966