SMC Minimax and Felder Questions

[derek labian]

I am looking at some SMC and Felder products and was hoping to get feedback on a few questions. First, I'm not trying to create an SMC vs Felder thread, just get some facts from existing owners as these are large purchases (for me at least). I've gotten good information from each companies Rep but I'd like to get some information from parties less invested.

1) I am trying to determine how the product lines align. For example, does the SMC ES series aligns with the Felder AD 700 or 900 series? Any opinions are appreciated.

2) I read every thread I could find on the topic of product choice out there. There appear to be a much higher number of Felder owners in general. Most of the threads are old (2005-2013), and many complaints circle around the options available from SMC. More recently it seems SMC has switched to an option model as well for combo units, so Felder and SMC options are comparable. I was wondering if any more recent purchasers had any updated opinions; maybe the chief complaint about configurability is moot now.

3) Finally, I haven't been able to find any real alternatives in the space of Slider/Moulder combo's. Does anyone know of any alternatives?

4) For anyone that has a 2500mm slider in a small shop or garage, I'm interested in how much space you have to allocate to it and how big your space is overall. (Thank you again Jim for your feedback on this!)

5) I haven't found anyone complaining about SMC support, but I am wondering if anyone has interacted with them and how the experience has been. I did talk to Felder support, without being a Felder owner, and they were super helpful. There isn't a Felder or SMC rep or support as far as I know in my area so all support would be remote, or expensively local (travel).

Thank you for your feedback. If some of these questions were covered in other threads I'm not aware of, I'd appreciate a link.

Derek

[Kyle Stiefel]

Derek,

I was in the same situation as you, just wrapping up a deal last week. I have been in a 2 year shop build process that will hopefully be electrified next spring and last week ordered a Felder with a 8.5' wagon.


I had done research long ago and in my mind decided on the SCM as they kind of bundled a package vs ala carte. Well 2 months ago I got serious about the saw again. I reached out to multiple companies for the SCM and one who is local. I had several questions etc as this is a huge investment, at least for myself. The local company initially responded and then radio silent, would not return emails or calls as I was looking to finalize the deal.


I then found a company in Pennsylvania who immediately responded but was recently bought by Wurth. Wurth happens to own the local company so they wouldn't allow the other company to sell to me. I then contacted the main group down in Atlanta and they would not return a call. It blows me away as these SCM guys must be doing great to simply not make a quick phone call or shoot back an email. I am a small business owner myself and if I treated people in this manner I would not be able to provide food on the table for my family.


I have seen Erik Loza who is now with Felder post frequently here and he has good things to say about all the machines. I sent a message to him and he quickly responded. He had me in touch with my local Felder rep who called a few hours later. I had a quote by the end of the day. I signed paperwork at the end of last week and will hopefully have the saw by April. I also plan to have the tech come out to commission the saw.


I have never owned either a SCM or Felder and either should exceed my expectations. However, if a company is non responsive on the sales front, what the heck happens post sale, my guess would be "up a creek."


My 2 cents, please disregard typos as going quick.....

[derek labian]

Hi Kyle, congratulations on the purchase! Im not surprised about your feedback. I originally reached out to elite metal tools and SMC direct. In my case SMC got back to me very quickly, and later EMT. EMT provided me, in my first exchange, incorrect information. I can see how the inability to find a competent voice for a vendor quickly sours it. In my case, SMC is being providing clear, full, and complete information.

[Albert Lee]

I am looking at some SMC and Felder products and was hoping to get feedback on a few questions. First, I'm not trying to create an SMC vs Felder thread, just get some facts from existing owners as these are large purchases (for me at least). I've gotten good information from each companies Rep but I'd like to get some information from parties less invested.

1) I am trying to determine how the product lines align. For example, does the SMC ES series aligns with the Felder AD 700 or 900 series? Any opinions are appreciated.

2) I read every thread I could find on the topic of product choice out there. There appear to be a much higher number of Felder owners in general. Most of the threads are old (2005-2013), and many complaints circle around the options available from SMC. More recently it seems SMC has switched to an option model as well for combo units, so Felder and SMC options are comparable. I was wondering if any more recent purchasers had any updated opinions; maybe the chief complaint about configurability is moot now.

3) Finally, I haven't been able to find any real alternatives in the space of Slider/Moulder combo's. Does anyone know of any alternatives?

4) For anyone that has a 2500mm slider in a small shop or garage, I'm interested in how much space you have to allocate to it and how big your space is overall. (Thank you again Jim for your feedback on this!)

5) I haven't found anyone complaining about SMC support, but I am wondering if anyone has interacted with them and how the experience has been. I did talk to Felder support, without being a Felder owner, and they were super helpful. There isn't a Felder or SMC rep or support as far as I know in my area so all support would be remote, or expensively local (travel).

Thank you for your feedback. If some of these questions were covered in other threads I'm not aware of, I'd appreciate a link.

Derek

Hi Derek

I have bought 3 machines from Felder and SCM within the last 3 years, I think I can help you out here.

I bought the following:
Felder AD951 in mid 2018 (in stock, delivered pretty much the next day), I actually wanted to buy a SCM but they have nothing in stock, Felder had 2 AD951 in stock.
SCM TI145 in Jul 2020 (delivered May 2021), and
SCM L'Invincibile si X in Jul 2021 (expected delivery May/June 2022)

1. Product line - I dont think there is a clear like for like, apple for apple comparison between Felder and SCM machines, but if you talk about combi machines, I think Felder wins in this arena, even my SCM agent conceded Felder's Combi machine is great.
For stand alone machines, in my opinion and experience, SCM's Class is comparable with 900 range, Nova is comparable with 700 range, and Minimax is comparable with Hammer range, but you pay a lot more for a SCM for differences that's almost negligible.

2. Generally people who owns Felder are owner operator, where as SCM are used by employees - at least this is what I feel and experience in my area, generally employee dont post about what machines they use at work... I wouldnt go onto Samsung/Apple fan page to talk about my work PC/laptop.

SCM does not do a good job on its marketing, there are more option items you can choose with SCM, for example, I added a pneumatic air lock to my SCM spindle moulder, there is no more tooling required to change the cutter block, just your hand and an air hose/gun, see link below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOlAeGml0-U



3. Cant comment on the saw/spindle combo, spindle moulder require a lot of time to setup. having it with a saw is really counter productive in my area of work.

4. My current slider, a Griggio is a 3800mm slider, I upgraded to a SCM L'Invincibile but a short slider, 2200mm, - I never needed the long length on my current saw, the new saw, SCM says its only a 2200mm slider, but it can travel 5200mm in total. my workshop is only 20 x 30. the short slider will make my area more user friendly.

5. I am SCM inclined because on my previous wide belt sander, a 40 yo machine, SCM still have parts for it... same can be said about Felder I suppose, but I dont think you can find a 40 yo Felder wide belt sander.

[Jim Becker]

For support on SCM/Minimax, I typically interact with Sam Blasco who is located not too far from Austin TX and is the brand champion. If I buy anything, it would also go through him. He's the guy who has done many of their videos, too...a user and extraordinary craftsman, not just a salesperson. If I were buying Felder and the rules allowed it, I'd deal with Eric Loza who is a vendor member here and who I know from his SMC days. I trust both of those gentlemen for their respective brand affiliations. I have had positive experience with ordering parts from SCM in recent years, specifically for my J/P which needed a wear item replaced.

[Warren Lake]

I ordered some spindle lock screws for SCM shapers, likely 60 years old and they sent it, took a bit, all went well and nice they had parts.

[derek labian]

Hi Albert,

Great information, exactly what the kind of info I was looking for. I've been eyeballing the L'Invincibile si X for fun, what a machine. The shop I'm building will likely be 15x30 or 15x35 so its fairly analogous. In this case, I think the stock and availability is about the same, a long wait ;).


1. Product line - I dont think there is a clear like for like, apple for apple comparison between Felder and SCM machines, but if you talk about combi machines, I think Felder wins in this arena, even my SCM agent conceded Felder's Combi machine is great.
For stand alone machines, in my opinion and experience, SCM's Class is comparable with 900 range, Nova is comparable with 700 range, and Minimax is comparable with Hammer range, but you pay a lot more for a SCM for differences that's almost negligible.

Interesting, my take was that the ES was closer to the 900 and maybe the Classic was closer to the Hammer. Can you provide any more color on your feelings about the SCM combo vs the Felder combo and why you feel the Felder is stronger? Specifically I'm talking about the dual combo's (such as the Jointer/Planer, not the 5-n-1).



2. SCM does not do a good job on its marketing

They really do a poor job. There really isn't enough information on the website or their distributors websites. Of course Felders website is really annoying every-time it says "See list price" and you login to see, and almost always, nothing.. Maybe its my login :P



4. My current slider, a Griggio is a 3800mm slider, I upgraded to a SCM L'Invincibile but a short slider, 2200mm, - I never needed the long length on my current saw, the new saw, SCM says its only a 2200mm slider, but it can travel 5200mm in total. my workshop is only 20 x 30. the short slider will make my area more user friendly.

I was thinking about going with a ~3200mm only because I wanted to have the option of doing sheet goods. My rational was that if I don't extend the slider fully because of space, I simply won't get the fully value. Later if I have more space and need it, I have it. Is this rational logic or am I going to run into another issue? Is the 5200mm travel a full stroke (i.e. 7' back to 7' forward)?

BTW, have you posted pictures of your shop anywhere?

Thanks Albert!

[derek labian]

For support on SCM/Minimax, I typically interact with Sam Blasco who is located not too far from Austin TX and is the brand champion. If I buy anything, it would also go through him. He's the guy who has done many of their videos, too...a user and extraordinary craftsman, not just a salesperson. If I were buying Felder and the rules allowed it, I'd deal with Eric Loza who is a vendor member here and who I know from his SMC days. I trust both of those gentlemen for their respective brand affiliations. I have had positive experience with ordering parts from SCM in recent years, specifically for my J/P which needed a wear item replaced.

I've seen Sam's videos. He's funny in a sublime way, always putting on weight in Italy! Good to know you and Warren are able to get parts easily. I've spoken with Erik as well, I'm not sure he ever sleeps. :)

[Albert Lee]

Hi Albert,

Great information, exactly what the kind of info I was looking for. I've been eyeballing the L'Invincibile si X for fun, what a machine. The shop I'm building will likely be 15x30 or 15x35 so its fairly analogous. In this case, I think the stock and availability is about the same, a long wait ;).



Interesting, my take was that the ES was closer to the 900 and maybe the Classic was closer to the Hammer. Can you provide any more color on your feelings about the SCM combo vs the Felder combo and why you feel the Felder is stronger? Specifically I'm talking about the dual combo's (such as the Jointer/Planer, not the 5-n-1).



They really do a poor job. There really isn't enough information on the website or their distributors websites. Of course Felders website is really annoying every-time it says "See list price" and you login to see, and almost always, nothing.. Maybe its my login :P



I was thinking about going with a ~3200mm only because I wanted to have the option of doing sheet goods. My rational was that if I don't extend the slider fully because of space, I simply won't get the fully value. Later if I have more space and need it, I have it. Is this rational logic or am I going to run into another issue? Is the 5200mm travel a full stroke (i.e. 7' back to 7' forward)?

BTW, have you posted pictures of your shop anywhere?

Thanks Albert!

here is my shop's most recent video..


https://youtu.be/gpQrhj-oyRk

I think SCM's strength is in heavy industrial machines, anything with "combo" is actually for artisan who may not have access to a lot of work space/large shop. I originally wanted to buy SCM's FS7, but when I found out how much more they wanted in comparison to Felder's AD951, I hesitated, its about $7000 USD more, different caliber of machine but $7k is $7k.

I always think its best to get the longest slider if you can and have the space, I bought the Griggio slider because it was cheap(kitchen business went under) and solid (Griggio used to make Martin entry level saw), back then I thought longer slider wont hurt and I might move one day and its there.. but its been 4 years and I dont think I will ever move... I did consider integrate a router table into the slider because its so long and almost half of it never used and I use it as bench space... I ditched this idea after I got my SCM spindle moulder.

The 5200mm slider is the full stroke, its actually 8.5 ft back and 8.5ft front, measuring from the center of the saw arbor, if you use a smaller blade and without scoring saw you should be able to cut a full sheet? however this information is not available on SCM's brochure/online material,, why not call it 2600mm slider? I have no idea. On SCM' top of the line L'Invincibile, there is even less information... a while back our SCM had a L'Invincibile saw in its showroom, I happened to be in the nearby area for other business and able view it in person - it took my breath away... When I was wanting to upgrade/downsize the panel saw recently (realising I will not move and the 3800mm slider is a massive hindrance), I compared SCM with a "comparable" Felder K590 (Felder here has one on display) I still went ahead with the SCM.

[derek labian]

here is my shop's most recent video..

Cool shop, you packed it in there without it feeling cramped. I misread what you said earlier about what you had and what you were receiving. I thought your video had a 2200mm/5200mm full stroke. I can see why the 3800mm is challenging.

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of woodworking do you do, and what lengths of wood do you typically work with? Do you work much with 8' lengths of wood?


The 5200mm slider is the full stroke, its actually 8.5 ft back and 8.5ft front, measuring from the center of the saw arbor, if you use a smaller blade and without scoring saw you should be able to cut a full sheet? however this information is not available on SCM's brochure/online material,, why not call it 2600mm slider?

I'm not sure about the L'Invincible, but the ST 5 ES has a 2250mm, a 2600mm, and a 3200mm option. The 2600mm slider providing a 7180mm stroke. It was my understanding I needed the 2600mm at least to slide 8' wood. Alas, there is no information there either about the actual capacity.



I think SCM's strength is in heavy industrial machines, anything with "combo" is actually for artisan who may not have access to a lot of work space/large shop. I originally wanted to buy SCM's FS7, but when I found out how much more they wanted in comparison to Felder's AD951, I hesitated, its about $7000 USD more, different caliber of machine but $7k is $7k.


I have no idea. On SCM' top of the line L'Invincibile, there is even less information... a while back our SCM had a L'Invincibile saw in its showroom, I happened to be in the nearby area for other business and able view it in person - it took my breath away... When I was wanting to upgrade/downsize the panel saw recently (realising I will not move and the 3800mm slider is a massive hindrance), I compared SCM with a "comparable" Felder K590 (Felder here has one on display) I still went ahead with the SCM.

Your equipment in a different league than I :) Is the K590 your referring to must be the Kappa 590? I only see a "590" in the Format 4 series.

As best as I can tell for SMC and Felder end up keeping their product lines fairly close by functionality but named very differently.

The Minimax Classic is comparable to a Hammer K3/K4?
The Minimax Elite is comparable to an lower end Felder K500's.
The Minimax ES is comparable to a Felder 700? (In features they line up pretty closely) or Minimax ES is effectively a SMC Nova in combo or a bottom end Nova for single function.
The SMC Nova is comparable to a Felder 900?
The SMC Class is comparable to the low end Format 4 Kappa?
The SMC SI X is comparable to the high end Format 4 Kappa?

Of course that just from looking at the documentation, I've never used any of these machines. Depending on who you talk to you get very different responses.

[Pat Rice]

My shop is 24’ x 24’ and I have a 2800mm Felder slider which allows me to rip 8’ with the use of my Airtight clamps.

[derek labian]

My shop is 24’ x 24’ and I have a 2800mm Felder slider which allows me to rip 8’ with the use of my Airtight clamps.

Hi Pat, have any pics of your shop configuration?

[Albert Lee]

Cool shop, you packed it in there without it feeling cramped. I misread what you said earlier about what you had and what you were receiving. I thought your video had a 2200mm/5200mm full stroke. I can see why the 3800mm is challenging.

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of woodworking do you do, and what lengths of wood do you typically work with? Do you work much with 8' lengths of wood?



I'm not sure about the L'Invincible, but the ST 5 ES has a 2250mm, a 2600mm, and a 3200mm option. The 2600mm slider providing a 7180mm stroke. It was my understanding I needed the 2600mm at least to slide 8' wood. Alas, there is no information there either about the actual capacity.





Your equipment in a different league than I :) Is the K590 your referring to must be the Kappa 590? I only see a "590" in the Format 4 series.

As best as I can tell for SMC and Felder end up keeping their product lines fairly close by functionality but named very differently.

The Minimax Classic is comparable to a Hammer K3/K4?
The Minimax Elite is comparable to an lower end Felder K500's.
The Minimax ES is comparable to a Felder 700? (In features they line up pretty closely) or Minimax ES is effectively a SMC Nova in combo or a bottom end Nova for single function.
The SMC Nova is comparable to a Felder 900?
The SMC Class is comparable to the low end Format 4 Kappa?
The SMC SI X is comparable to the high end Format 4 Kappa?

Of course that just from looking at the documentation, I've never used any of these machines. Depending on who you talk to you get very different responses.

I dont make one off item, and absolutely hated them...
I process sheets sometimes, as I need to make the shipping boxes for out of town clients.

From my experience it will be quite hard to compare SCM and Felder. SCM machines are always more expensive and heavier than Felder with "equivalent spec/function", so do you compare machine based on cost or spec? you will probably get more bang for your buck by going Felder, My L'Invincibile si X costed a lot more(more than $5k) than Kappa 590 of similar function and accessories, my si X costed about the same as a Martin T75, I would have and could have bought a Martin T75 but there is no Martin dealership here in NZ which complicates things.

I think SCM cost more is because everything is made in Italy including the casting. There is no foundry in Austria due to regulations, so its outsourced.

Felder's support and after sales seems to be better than SCM? at least this is what I've seen on the forum? I havnt had any real issues myself with either Felder/SCM's service/after sales.

However I must say, SCM's user manual is not as detailed and helpful as Felder's user manual.

[derek labian]

I dont make one off item, and absolutely hated them...
I process sheets sometimes, as I need to make the shipping boxes for out of town clients.

From my experience it will be quite hard to compare SCM and Felder. SCM machines are always more expensive and heavier than Felder with "equivalent spec/function", so do you compare machine based on cost or spec? you will probably get more bang for your buck by going Felder, My L'Invincibile si X costed a lot more(more than $5k) than Kappa 590 of similar function and accessories, my si X costed about the same as a Martin T75, I would have and could have bought a Martin T75 but there is no Martin dealership here in NZ which complicates things.

I think SCM cost more is because everything is made in Italy including the casting. There is no foundry in Austria due to regulations, so its outsourced.

Felder's support and after sales seems to be better than SCM? at least this is what I've seen on the forum? I havnt had any real issues myself with either Felder/SCM's service/after sales.

However I must say, SCM's user manual is not as detailed and helpful as Felder's user manual.

Good Info, thank you.

[Pat Rice]

464692464694464693
Here are a couple of photos for you.

[derek labian]

5) I haven't found anyone complaining about SMC support, but I am wondering if anyone has interacted with them and how the experience has been.

Well this sounds like quiet the nightmare if you are unlucky enough to arrive with damaged equipment. I suspect Felder handles this type of situation better.

forums.woodnet. net/showthread.php?tid=7336269&highlight=minimax

[Ned Otter]

Hi Derek,

My shop is not quite 11.5 feet wide (138”) and about 40 feet long, at least that's the part of the structure where my machines will reside, when they arrive in December. With the exception of the DC, it’s all MiniMax: 16” jointer, 16” planer, 8 foot slider, and 20” band saw.

I'm a firm believer in buying more machine than you actually need right now, as upgrading is costly, and it’s either dangerous or expensive to move stuff this heavy. I’m also not 100% convinced that this shop will be the “final resting place” for this set of equipment.

For the slider, I definitely have the length to accommodate it, but I also definitely don't have the width, which requires about 14 feet if handling sheet goods and using the full rip capacity. I expect to use the slider for lumber 99% of the time, so I don’t see that as a problem. The motor is 24” wide, the wagon is 15”, and the minimum footprint of the 90 degree fence is 68 inches, for a grand total of 107”. I’ll have to position the machine such that the 90 degree fence traverses the part of the shop where the doors are, so that I can open them for really long pieces, should the need arise.

I dealt with Sam Blasco, who was great. He suggested angling the slider as he does in his shop, but my shop is so narrow, it cuts off the shop too much. If you want to DM me, I can send you a diagram of how I initially want to lay things out. I have a Pentz EF5 in a different part of the structure, but I don’t want to purchase/connect ducting until I know for sure the exact location of machines in the main shop area.

I’ll have to see when I get the equipment how I’ll set the slider up – I probably won’t be able to use the rip fence, but I don’t think that will be an issue for me, as it’s possible to rip on the wagon, with some type of parallel fence and flip stop.

Best of luck to you --

[derek labian]

Hi Derek,

My shop is not quite 11.5 feet wide (138”) and about 40 feet long, at least that's the part of the structure where my machines will reside, when they arrive in December. With the exception of the DC, it’s all MiniMax: 16” jointer, 16” planer, 8 foot slider, and 20” band saw.

I'm a firm believer in buying more machine than you actually need right now, as upgrading is costly, and it’s either dangerous or expensive to move stuff this heavy. I’m also not 100% convinced that this shop will be the “final resting place” for this set of equipment.

For the slider, I definitely have the length to accommodate it, but I also definitely don't have the width, which requires about 14 feet if handling sheet goods and using the full rip capacity. I expect to use the slider for lumber 99% of the time, so I don’t see that as a problem. The motor is 24” wide, the wagon is 15”, and the minimum footprint of the 90 degree fence is 68 inches, for a grand total of 107”. I’ll have to position the machine such that the 90 degree fence traverses the part of the shop where the doors are, so that I can open them for really long pieces, should the need arise.

I dealt with Sam Blasco, who was great. He suggested angling the slider as he does in his shop, but my shop is so narrow, it cuts off the shop too much. If you want to DM me, I can send you a diagram of how I initially want to lay things out. I have a Pentz EF5 in a different part of the structure, but I don’t want to purchase/connect ducting until I know for sure the exact location of machines in the main shop area.

I’ll have to see when I get the equipment how I’ll set the slider up – I probably won’t be able to use the rip fence, but I don’t think that will be an issue for me, as it’s possible to rip on the wagon, with some type of parallel fence and flip stop.

Best of luck to you --

Congratulations! That shop is long and narrow. Ill PM you.

[Mark e Kessler]

I have had the Felder 700 series and 900 series saw and the 900 series j/p. both are ok, I would consider the 900 series entry level commercial

[Rod Wolfy]

I don't know what you're planning, but I'd go with 2 machines, if given the choice. I had an older Felder 4 in 1. I liked the compactness, but I didn't have a 8' slider.

Using part of the j/p for depth on the table saw was tedious, as I had to move the jointer fence. When using the shaper, I couldn't saw stuff, as it was a process to bolt down the shaper hood & set up the belts & the shaper is mounted on the same table as the table saw, about 12" behind the saw blade.

Get 2 machines! A j/p and a saw/shaper. You can park the j/p against a wall, taking up only about 2' out, or move it around on a base, while the table saw takes up the center... The other idea would be that you could order a Felder of one and an SCM of the other type, if you choose to.

I talked to Eric via phone last year and then put in an order for a Hammer j/p in June (great guy & he's worked for both SCM and Felder). I didn't get the machine until July of this year, due to Covid/factory issues. Hopefully, your turn around time will be less!

[Jim Becker]

Get 2 machines! A j/p and a saw/shaper. You can park the j/p against a wall, taking up only about 2' out, or move it around on a base, while the table saw takes up the center... The other idea would be that you could order a Felder of one and an SCM of the other type, if you choose to.

I agree with this idea and it was more or less the way I handled things for my previous shop. The minor difference was that I couldn't afford the extra hit for the saw/shaper combo, so I bought the slider and added my own "shaper" to it with a cast iron router table and lift. I had a narrow space in the area where the machines would live (about 16') and the combo(s) worked out well.