And You Thought a GE Refridgerator Was Bad!

[Bruce Wrenn]

Currently there is a shortage, as in none available, of PACCAR DEF gauges for Peterbilt, and KW trucks. DEF is diesel exhaust fluid, which is required in newer diesel trucks. The gauge reports to the computer on the amount of DEF in the tank. As the DEF level falls, computer slows engine down , finally to an almost stop, rendering the engine useless. This means trucking companies, both large and small are having to park trucks worth a half million, because they can't get a $500 replacement part. To me $500 seems a little steep for amounts to a fuel level sensor. According to what I read, about 25% of their trucks are effected by this faulty level sensor. Wait times for new sensors are over 3 months now. And you thought a GE refridgerator was bad. Remember when these trucks are parked, their owners aren't getting any income, but the payments are still due. Wouldn't be surprised to see a Class Action Lawsuit over this

[Ronald Blue]

This type of thing is wide spread and not unique to Peterbilt and Kenworth. We have a Cat backhoe down because of a similar issue. The supply chain is the issue. I would say the DEF sending unit is the issue on the trucks. That's the issue with the backhoe. Because there is so much shared in these types of applications it wouldn't surprise me if it is a virtually identical part. The ECM put's them in derate and then if the issue isn't resolved it will shut them down. The issue is across numerous brands/engine builders. Maybe the parts that are needed are on one of the 40 container ships anchored off California in the Los Angeles/Long Beach area.

[Jim Koepke]

If there was a way to hack the sender there would likely be all kinds of diesel owners doing just that so they wouldn't have to fill up with DEF every so often.


Maybe the parts that are needed are on one of the 40 .

As time goes by those "40 container ships anchored off California in the Los Angeles/Long Beach area" likely won't have enough DEF supply sender units on board to fill all the need. The problem is like a growing snowball.

Sounds like an opportunity if someone can find a way to repair the non-working units.

This is our fate from "globalization." For the profits of cheap labor we can not get critical parts in a timely manner during rough times.

What would happen if things got really rough?

jtk

[Tom Stenzel]

It doesn't just sense the level in the tank, it's also a DEF quality sensor. Just to make sure you don't fill the tank with water.

The problem isn't just tractor-trailers and backhoes it also includes RVs, combines and other inconsequential things like fire trucks and EMS vehicles.

Before the parts can be shipped to the east coast, the west coast trucks have to be fixed. Unless you fly the parts across the country. Then hope the FedEx truck doesn't founder and die on the way!

-Tom

-Tom

[Jim Koepke]

It doesn't just sense the level in the tank, it's also a DEF quality sensor. Just to make sure you don't fill the tank with water.

The problem isn't just tractor-trailers and backhoes it also includes RVs, combines and other inconsequential things like fire trucks and EMS vehicles.

Before the parts can be shipped to the east coast, the west coast trucks have to be fixed. Unless you fly the parts across the country. Then hope the FedEx truck doesn't founder and die on the way!

-Tom

-Tom

My point questions why these can not be made in North America to fulfill our needs?

BTW, my truck is a diesel and these kinds of service problems worry me.

jtk

[Tom Stenzel]

My point questions why these can not be made in North America to fulfill our needs?

BTW, my truck is a diesel and these kinds of service problems worry me.

jtk

Jim, if you can't get parts for your diesel don't feel picked on. I just replaced a sensor in my daughter's car. Normally $20 on line, $30 in the store, but $60 if I wanted one in my fist anytime soon. At least I got it and the car runs OK.

My minivan has the Chrysler Pentastar V-6 that uses a cartridge oil filter. Nice but the plastic oil filter housing has a crack in it. It's not leaking yet but when it lets go it's a $400 part that needs the upper and lower intake manifolds removed. If I get the work done at the dealer: over $800.

That is if they can get the housing. It's on national backorder. Remember, this is to save me all the problems that spin-on oil filters have :mad:. I'm sure I can get it done cheaper elsewhere but still...

I replaced a Maytag washer last fall because it needed a part. On national backorder with no deliver date. I now have a Speedqueen.

It's not just diesel trucks. It's everything. As far as making things here I'd be more than glad to discuss but it would rapidly turn political so I'll shut up :cool:

-Tom

[Bruce Wrenn]

A cartridge filter? It's been over fifty years since I saw one of those. So much for forward marching technology. Even on my fifties Ford Y blocks, we bought a conversion kit to allow for spin on filters. Same went for Chevy 283's.

[Jim Koepke]

As far as making things here I'd be more than glad to discuss but it would rapidly turn political so I'll shut up

Paraphrased from Aesop's Fables:

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

Someone with the ability to start up manufacturing could really rake in the money. Start with something easy and expand as the profits roll in.

It might not be long term.

jtk

[Kev Williams]

Glad the only diesel I have to worry about is 21 years old. ;)

[Bruce Wrenn]

Paraphrased from Aesop's Fables:

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

Someone with the ability to start up manufacturing could really rake in the money. Start with something easy and expand as the profits roll in.

It might not be long term.

jtk


Because the sensor is part of the emissions system, it has to be submitted to EPA for verification (meaning it works as well as OEM one.) This is a lengthy drawn out process. But the government could "fast track" it, same as with Covid vaccines. With the Presidents "Right to Repair" mandate this seems likely to happen. Because of the Urea content, truckers refer to DEF as "Cat Pee."

[Ronald Blue]

Paraphrased from Aesop's Fables:

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

Someone with the ability to start up manufacturing could really rake in the money. Start with something easy and expand as the profits roll in.

It might not be long term.

jtk

Most likely it's proprietary information. Could it be reverse engineered? Probably. But only if there isn't any patents involved. They are far more than just a fuel sending unit. They sense a delivery/flow issue they will set a code. The fluid level in the tank is another part of it as well. As was mentioned if the DEF fluid deteriorates in quality that will cause issues. Whether the units in question are sourced from the same supplier or multiple suppliers I have no way of knowing. Bosch is a major player in fuel systems but the after treatment systems may be manufacturer's own design. Because of EPA mandates the systems have several linked components so the system isn't bypassed. Even if someone was willing to make the investment to produce the components here then the issue of finding employees becomes the next challenge. I truly hope that manufacturing begins to return but I won't hold my breath. So many factors at work here.

[Brian Elfert]

I am seeing reports that the latest semi tractors with emissions are getting almost 50% better MPG than older semi tractors. Trucking companies that use owner operators are recommending to them that they get a 2017 or newer semi tractor as the sensor problems are mostly fixed and the MPG is much higher. An operator can cover their financing payment with their fuel sabings. This is more true than ever with diesel prices getting to be well over $3 in a lot of places.

[Roger Feeley]

Paraphrased from Aesop's Fables:

Someone with the ability to start up manufacturing could really rake in the money. Start with something easy and expand as the profits roll in.

jtk
a little company in Lenexa Kansas called Filti used to make all sorts of filter fabric for industrial applications. When the pandemic hit, they switched all production to raw fabric for surgical and n95. Then, seeing an opportunity in all the good people sewing masks, they set up an e-commerce site selling the fabric by the yard. The masks I made have an inner pocket for the filter. Then seeing opportunity in all the fuss over air filtering, they started manufacturing HEPA (MERV > 16) filters for home HVAC. As far as I know, they are pretty busy.

[Bill Dufour]

Does this sensor go bad or is it timed so it shuts down until replaced after so many hours/miles of run time? I do not think the engine oil monitors shut down the engine until the oil gets changed do they?
Ge water filters do shut it down after so many gallons.
Bill D

[Ronald Blue]

Does this sensor go bad or is it timed so it shuts down until replaced after so many hours/miles of run time? I do not think the engine oil monitors shut down the engine until the oil gets changed do they?
Ge water filters do shut it down after so many gallons.
Bill D

My experience is the fail. Length of service varies greatly.

[Bruce Wrenn]

I am seeing reports that the latest semi tractors with emissions are getting almost 50% better MPG than older semi tractors. Trucking companies that use owner operators are recommending to them that they get a 2017 or newer semi tractor as the sensor problems are mostly fixed and the MPG is much higher. An operator can cover their financing payment with their fuel sabings. This is more true than ever with diesel prices getting to be well over $3 in a lot of places.


Watched a Video from ET Trucking last night. First fuel MPG isn't 50% more. Older trucks get around seven miles per, while newer gets about 8.5 MPG. Fuel costs are lower, HOWEVER, this doesn't include the cost of the DEF (three bucks a gallon,) nor lost revenue when truck is in shop awaiting parts. Remember the lease payments continue, no matter that the truck is in the shop. Often the wait time is 2-3 weeks. With an older truck, you can do an in frame rebuild in a week, then it's back on the road for the next 250 - 500 K miles. Usually older truck is bought out right, while newer truck is leased. In five years, the truck goes back to leasor, and cycle starts over. No equity in the truck. In five years, older truck sells for about, or more than you paid for it. Very few of the older trucks have APU's, which mean engine idles all night every night, which on paper means fuel economy goes down. Hang an APU on it, and instantly fuel usage drops. As with most things, it isn't the price, but what it costs in the long run.

[Richard Hart]

What would happen if things got really rough?

jtk

Unless the present political climate changes, it will.

[Richard Hart]

I am all for non-predatory capitalism and less, not more, government but there are some things where it does need to step in and outlaw some things outright-"proprietary" parts being one, that are vital for said piece of equipment (your 18 wheeler or GE refrigerator, as mentioned here) There are some things that should be made by law to adhere to an industry standard-period-no matter the manufacturer. Wanna require a DEF gauge? Fine. Make one part that fits every vehicle that requires it, no matter the make.
I'm old school, but I love technology. My experience is in electronics and as far as I'm concerned computers do *not* belong in motor vehicles-or home appliances.
Glad I'm old.

[Bruce Wrenn]

[QUOTE=Richard Hart;3142 My experience is in electronics and as far as I'm concerned computers do *not* belong in motor vehicles-or home appliances.
Glad I'm old.[/QUOTE] I feel the same about alcohol in gasoline. Liquor was made for drinking, not driving.

[Brian Elfert]

I'm old school, but I love technology. My experience is in electronics and as far as I'm concerned computers do *not* belong in motor vehicles-or home appliances.
Glad I'm old.

You would rather go back to carbs or mechanical fuel injection? Not me. I like my electronic fuel injection. Vehicles have had electronics/computers in them since EFI became a thing. I also like ABS living in a snowy state. I don't believe I could manualy pump the brakes as well as ABS does.

I have a 1995 coach bus converted to a motorhome. Both the engine and transmission are electronically controlled. I like the throttle by wire rather than an air throttle or, even worse, a cable throttle. Cables corrode or break over the years. Air throttles can be finicky, probably because air compresses. I really wanted a four stroke engine instead of a two stroke the older buses have. I get one to two MPG better than the folks with the older engines.

[Ronald Blue]

You would rather go back to carbs or mechanical fuel injection? Not me. I like my electronic fuel injection. Vehicles have had electronics/computers in them since EFI became a thing. I also like ABS living in a snowy state. I don't believe I could manualy pump the brakes as well as ABS does.

I have a 1995 coach bus converted to a motorhome. Both the engine and transmission are electronically controlled. I like the throttle by wire rather than an air throttle or, even worse, a cable throttle. Cables corrode or break over the years. Air throttles can be finicky, probably because air compresses. I really wanted a four stroke engine instead of a two stroke the older buses have. I get one to two MPG better than the folks with the older engines.

I'm in agreement Brian. I like the performance and drivability of of todays electronically controlled engines and transmissions. I don't miss carbureted engines. No pumping the accelerator and feathering it to keep it running until it warms up. Reliability has became very good on todays vehicles. So many things you would give up if you turned back the clock 40 plus years. Cruise control for example. The electronic cruise is so smooth and seamless. Mechanical cruise controls worked but not nearly as smooth as todays electronic ones. Maybe some things are overkill in todays vehicles but I'm not complaining about them. I know the old vehicles are easier to work on but I'm at the age I am not really interested in working on my vehicles much anymore. I used to do a lot of repair work to save money. I'm happy with todays vehicle technology.

[Richard Hart]

You would rather go back to carbs or mechanical fuel injection? Not me. I like my electronic fuel injection. Vehicles have had electronics/computers in them since EFI became a thing. I also like ABS living in a snowy state. I don't believe I could manualy pump the brakes as well as ABS does.

I have a 1995 coach bus converted to a motorhome. Both the engine and transmission are electronically controlled. I like the throttle by wire rather than an air throttle or, even worse, a cable throttle. Cables corrode or break over the years. Air throttles can be finicky, probably because air compresses. I really wanted a four stroke engine instead of a two stroke the older buses have. I get one to two MPG better than the folks with the older engines.

Oh boy... you got me! I was thinking along different lines.
I wouldn't have a carburated [sp] engine now for nuthin.' Every one I did have was trouble and each successive one was worse than the last. How easy you forget...
Appliances though? I stand by that one, aside from the fact that they spy on you.

[Frank Pratt]

Oh boy... you got me! I was thinking along different lines.
I wouldn't have a carburated [sp] engine now for nuthin.' Every one I did have was trouble and each successive one was worse than the last. How easy you forget...
Appliances though? I stand by that one, aside from the fact that they spy on you.

You definitely have a good point with appliances. Many have functionality that is basic enough that simple timers & temperature controls that would do just as good a job, be far more reliable & easier to find replacements for when they fail.

[Doug Garson]

Oh boy... you got me! I was thinking along different lines.
I wouldn't have a carburated [sp] engine now for nuthin.' Every one I did have was trouble and each successive one was worse than the last. How easy you forget...
Appliances though? I stand by that one, aside from the fact that they spy on you.
Back in the day I had a Datsun 240Z (pronounced Zed up here:)) with side draft carburetors and starting it in even mildly cool (not cold) temperatures would require careful application of the choke and playing with the throttle until it warmed up. When I traded up to a 280Z with electronic fuel injection, starting was easy as pie even in cold weather.
If your worried about your fridge spying on you, put on your pants before you make that midnight trip to the kitchen for a snack. :D

[Brian Elfert]

None of your appliances are going to spy on you if you don't actually connect them to the Internet. No reason they should need Internet access anyhow. I bought a $600 Frigidaire fridge last September. It appears that the controls are still all manual in it.

I have a 2016 vehicle with no touchscreen, no Bluetooth, and not even a backup camera. It has dials for the HVAC, but the HVAC is totally electronic behind those dials! This model was supposed to be dropped after 2016 and replaced with a new model with a new name in 2017. That is the reason the car is relatively free of the stuff new cars all have now. In the end, the manufacturer released the new model and kept producing the old model as a cheaper alternative until May 2020.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Our beloved government has criminalized the act of altering the "environment" systems on diesels, meaning that it is illegal to even try to figure out a solution that alters the system or that does not use OEM parts. You can't even change a computer setting on your own vehicle legally now. No exceptions. No, the right to repair nonsense has nothing to do with this. DEF systems were a terrible design to appease the same moronic dictates, they were not and cannot be made reliable. Go open the door on the semi truck DEF dispenser at your local truck stop and you'll see why. That horrible crystalizing, freeze prone crap is being used in a highly engineered fuel system in a way that is absolutely impossible to design for any extended reliability.

No, there is no 50% increase in mileage. I guess 50% fuel savings is possible because the machines are just not reliable and they aren't burning any when broke down. DEF ain't free either, so don't forget to add the cost of your emissions BS into per mile cost. There is a real reason that the older trucks with 3206E or 60 Series Detroits are selling at a huge premium. They are reliable. Pay attention to the trucks on the road, you'll see it's starting to look like Cuba, the old stuff is just getting resurrected by the little companies who can't afford to rotate a backup fleet through the shop.

Trying to keep a business going without reliable diesel engines is one of the dailey problems of my job, so yes I'm biased.