Martin T17 Joinery saw back in service

[Joe Calhoon]

I rebuilt my T17 starting last December working on it when I could. Put it back into use a few weeks ago and just finished up the last 2 items this week. Mounting a Suva Guard and a oil pump instead of the oil nipples common to this vintage. A previous owner had converted it to grease lube at some point and that was a mess!
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[Jacques Gagnon]

Congratulations Joe; your machine looks better than a brand new one!

The result is amazing and clearly indicates your attention to detail.

Regards,

J.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Joe,

Wow, what a beautiful restoration job! A labor of love.

A couple of things I see of note about that saw:

I really like how the extension table can fold down and still be on the saw but out of the way. That looks very convenient. Does the right fence do a similar hinging / folding down out of the way on the opposite side? I’ve seen that on some Martin saws.

Is that a a Felder crosscut fence and if so, how long is it when the extension isn’t pulled out?

I just acquired an older SCM short stroke slider (SI-15F) that has a 52” stroke and a cast iron extension table similar to yours and is very heavy and solid, but it’s obviously not as refined as a Martin and now I’m a bit jealous!

That saw looks very handy for door parts.

[Jeff Bartley]

Great job Joe! That is one good lookin saw. Is the oil delivered by pumping the lever by hand?

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks for the nice comments everyone!
Phillip, the fence does fold out of the way and yes that is the Felder short fence. I have the original long fence that goes out past 10’ but where this saw sits I don’t have the room. Plus I still have my bigger slider for large cuts. The short fence goes out to about 80”. One thing I found out is at 45 degree cuts it is short and the stops cannot be calibrated to the blade. I might get a better fence at some point if this becomes my only saw. Good thing with the Felder fence is it mounts at the rear so the scribe marks for angle still work.
Jeff, yes pumps by handle. It’s the same one Martin uses on newer machines.
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[Patrick Kane]

That is really fantastic, and i am very envious. This is precisely what i want to do with my T-17. Im for sure going blue, and i think i will copy your Martin logo. I like that you painted the gray raised background. A few things:
How do you and Mark polish all metal parts to such a sheen? Every piece of nonpainted metal on that machine looks like chrome. I see it all the time, and you guys make it look like everything was freshly milled and machined.
Next, do you have any wear on your sliding table's beam's V ways? I have a tiny groove in mine, and i am trying to decide if i should send it out to be milled. I am slightly concerned by this, because its a long piece, and the 4 sides of the 2 V's need to be dead parallel with one another. Maybe this is child's play for a good machine shop. I only found one with the machines large enough to handle a 60" long part.
How does the suva guard connect? I really like my Felder's optional overhead guard, and would like to add something similar to the T17. This looks like a better plug n play solution.
Finally, this is selfishly for my own needs, but the crosscut fence connects via two points. I have the post and the cast connector, but i am missing the second connection point. It looks like you maybe had that part made on your saw. Can you post a photo or two of what this looks like, please?

[Ronald Blue]

That's a beautiful machine Joe. You as was already said have made it look better than new. Restoring machines is an art in itself and you have done an awesome job. The before and after is like walking into a dark room and flipping on the light. I can't imagine the hours and work you have devoted to this. I'm sure this is the same level of skill you devote to everything you do. Thanks for sharing the finished result. It's a treat to the eyes and I'm sure a joy to use as well. Well Done!!!

[Brian Holcombe]

Very nice work, Joe!

[Patrick McCarthy]

Joe, very nicely done, sir. I may have to sign up for another Alpine class so i can come worship at the Temple of Martin in Ouray.

Best to you Joe. Patrick

[Jim Becker]

What a fine looking machine! You did a wonderful restoration...totally worthy!

[Brian Holcombe]

Joe, if I may, where did you acquire that oiler? Looks great, I would like to add one to the wadkin

[Joe Calhoon]

That is really fantastic, and i am very envious. This is precisely what i want to do with my T-17. Im for sure going blue, and i think i will copy your Martin logo. I like that you painted the gray raised background. A few things:
How do you and Mark polish all metal parts to such a sheen? Every piece of nonpainted metal on that machine looks like chrome. I see it all the time, and you guys make it look like everything was freshly milled and machined.
Next, do you have any wear on your sliding table's beam's V ways? I have a tiny groove in mine, and i am trying to decide if i should send it out to be milled. I am slightly concerned by this, because its a long piece, and the 4 sides of the 2 V's need to be dead parallel with one another. Maybe this is child's play for a good machine shop. I only found one with the machines large enough to handle a 60" long part.
How does the suva guard connect? I really like my Felder's optional overhead guard, and would like to add something similar to the T17. This looks like a better plug n play solution.
Finally, this is selfishly for my own needs, but the crosscut fence connects via two points. I have the post and the cast connector, but i am missing the second connection point. It looks like you maybe had that part made on your saw. Can you post a photo or two of what this looks like, please?

Patrick, I have this air die grinder with flap wheels from Klingspor that makes polishing metal easy.
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My V ways have very little wear. Gary Shultz who used to post a lot on the OWWM had a T 17 that he had to re machine the ways on. He was very knowledgeable about these machines but unfortunately was insulted so bad on that forum he left and deleted all his posts. I may still have his contact info if you need it.

The Suva attaches to a 25mm rod. I bought that from McMaster and a metal work friend made a mount for it out of 2 1/2” and 2” square stock. I did all the finishing and taping of holes. I like it for the near perfect dust collection and safety. They are hard to get used to but I like the one on my T72. This one can be moved back and raised to get out of the way quickly.
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For the cast fitting that holds the fence at the post, my T17 has that but my T23 was missing this. John Clark was restoring his and found a machinest to make new ones from aluminum. The dimensions have to be precise in order for the fence to be accurate on the angles. Look close at the picture below and you can see the new one.
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[Joe Calhoon]

That's a beautiful machine Joe. You as was already said have made it look better than new. Restoring machines is an art in itself and you have done an awesome job. The before and after is like walking into a dark room and flipping on the light. I can't imagine the hours and work you have devoted to this. I'm sure this is the same level of skill you devote to everything you do. Thanks for sharing the finished result. It's a treat to the eyes and I'm sure a joy to use as well. Well Done!!!

Thanks Ronald
it is a lot of work and I knew what I was getting into after doing the T23 shaper. A lot of pain but now forgotten now that I am using it.

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Patrick and Jim for the comments!

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, if I may, where did you acquire that oiler? Looks great, I would like to add one to the wadkin

Hi Brian,
I bought this from Martin. It was expensive but heck when riding the Titanic might as well go first class!
in Mark’s post on his T17 he and Chris Hall had other sources for less expensive oilers.
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there might be another source for this brand. It works well

[David Kumm]

Typical Joe work. My regret is that you aren't 20 years older than me and wanting to downsize. Dave

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks, Joe!

[Joe Calhoon]

Typical Joe work. My regret is that you aren't 20 years older than me and wanting to downsize. Dave

Only working part time solo now Dave and figuring out I could get by with less space and machines.

[David Kumm]

Only working part time solo now Dave and figuring out I could get by with less space and machines.

I'm getting into metal working ( to fix old machines ) and finding it interesting but those machines take up some room. Dave

[Mark Hennebury]

Great job Joe! You have done a great job on all of the details right to the last one. excellent!

[Patrick Kane]

I forgot to ask, what is the paint code? Is it RAL 5021?

Do those flap wheels remove any appreciable amount of metal? I assume they come in varying grits.

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Mark! Your thread on your T17 breakdown was a great help on this.

[Joe Calhoon]

Patrick, yes that is the correct code- Water Blue.
Martin changed it slightly earlier on. It can look different in photos depending on the lighting.
The flap wheels can remove metal in the rougher grits. I tend to use 120 and higher

[Tom Bussey]

Does the saw have Babbitt Bearings? is that why you need the oiler? Don't get me wrong , Nothing wrong with Babbitt bearings. Just asking because I am interested.

[Joe Calhoon]

Does the saw have Babbitt Bearings? is that why you need the oiler? Don't get me wrong , Nothing wrong with Babbitt bearings. Just asking because I am interested.

Hi Tom, no it has sealed bearings. Originally it had bearings with zerks. On the advise of several people I went back in with sealed bearings. The saw has 3 speeds 2800/4000/5500 to handle large blades, small blades shaper cutters, adjustable groovers and dados if desired. The bearings are fairly substantial.
The oil system is to lube the ways mostly for the saw raise and lower. Here are pictures of the oil lines.
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[Correy Smith]

Hi Joe thanks for posting so many detailed pics of your T17.
A friend just gave me one recently. It's in fair to good shape.
Some or all of the electrical is not working. I believe the last owner just used a knife switch between his phase converter and the main motor, gasp! There was a 4 pole male receptacle mounted in a box I guess he used as a disconnect. I wired up the same way for my pigtail and the motor came on when I plugged in. If I had been even looking at what he had done bypassing all switches I would have know that before plugging in. Alls good and safe, at least I can confirm that the motor worked and no awful sounds emitted. I am not seeing any replacement switches on line that match the part numbers on the originals. Or at least the newer versions of the same switch do not appear that they will fit the original face plates and such.
The saw has a scoring motor as well. May be just a bit older than yours as it has the wooden fence attached.
I would be quite quick to just put a VFD on it if anyone( you) thought that would be a easy fix. I don't intend to wire up or use the scoring unit.
Couple of questions other than switch if you have a moment to offer your thoughts....

Was removing the arbor bearing very involved? Seems like this may have been a "feature" on this saw to be able to easily replace the bearing. I have the original wrench with the saw, seems one end is a spanner type but missing the pins. I am assuming this fits the inside flange.

Do you think it's possible that your machinist friend could make another dado nut? I have the original arbor nut and outside flange. I need to be able to dado with this saw.

Grease zerks, I see a coupe zerks one on the arbor bearing, I will replace with sealed if removing the flange and bearing is doable. Other wise I'd replace or clean the zerk and give more grease? Should I squirt some sort of degreaser initially to free up any old grease prior?

I have everything moving pretty good, tilt, height, spindle locks, table. There is light surface rust on the tilt ways that has been clearing up with repeated movement and wd40. Whats the goto for this type of clean up? Your flap sander on rotary tool?

I will also like to re do the oil lines, mine are located by back door. Seems easy enough. What would one call the out feed port of the lines for google searching a replacement? I may just be able to blow them out. I am guessing the line is a small surgical type hose?

I was half looking for a large table saw for power feeding and this fell off the truck. But starting to liken to having an extra slider around makes a cool compliment to the scm 10 footer. It has a patina for sure. pretty much the same as when you first got yours. Except the controls seem faulty. The push button switch does not give any continuity from one side to the other. And not getting any continuity thru the main switch either. I didn't bother to look at momentary scoring buttons. There is a largish what seems to be a transformer or a start ramp up? just before going to the main motor. I am not getting continuity thru that either.... Just seems new controls would be easiest that replacing original parts... unless you know the right place?

Ok, sorry to drawl, lol last thought.... I was a little bummed to realize the arbor was 1.25. I may either get my 12"x1" blades reholed to 1.25 and then bushing on 1" abor or if for who knows why the arbor needs replacing on the T17 have the new one spun up at 1". But seems silly to reduce the size of the arbor on this saw. Is it costly for a new arbor? I don't want to have to retool yet another table saw in the shop.

Thanks again for posting so many great pics, between you and Mark it's a pretty through overview of this model.

[Joe Calhoon]

Corey,
You will like this saw when you get it operational. It has become my all around saw for different tasks and in a retirement shop could picture this as my only saw. They are solid, vibration free and dependable stops for square that are repeatable.

The arbor is easy to pull and if you have the spanner wrench that makes it easy. I had to make my own.Just remember it’s a left hand thread. Don’t ask how long it took me to figure this out…. For this saw Martin had a pre made arbor package when bearings went out to make the change quick. This is no longer available. Do not even think about having an arbor made if yours is OK. Just change bearings if needed. No big deal to have blades bored to 1.25. This saw will sink a 12” blade below the table but not a 14 like my T72. With the 1.25 shaft you can run shaper cutters and large groovers. The arbor nut is still available from Martin. I’ll get you a part number. It’s the same as the T72 era.
do you have the arbor dado extension? Please post a picture of your saw.

For rust without taking things apart and using Evaporust, WD40 with scotch bright works good for light rust. The tubing for the oil lines is metric size available from McMaster.

Sorry no help on the electrical. So far this one is ok. On the T23 shaper I was able to find some of the no longer made German electric parts on EBay.

I liked the fence with wood bottom on my old T75. Did you get the setting gauge with it? Mine has a newer type fence similar to the T70s.
it’s long and I haven’t restored it yet. For the time being I put a Felder short fence on. It’s marginal but easy to take off and walk around.
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[Bill Dufour]

Never seen a one shot oiler on a wood working machine. Looks like a good idea. Do you give it a pull before every day or what?
Bijur is the name brand for metal working machines. They come manual or even automatic that can give a pump every few hours or whatever time.
"Metering units" are the restrictors that control flow to each nozzle. They come in different flow rates, more flow for bigger bearings. They often get clogged and are not really possible to be cleaned out.
Bill D.
https://bijurlubrication.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwi46iBhDyARIsAE3nVrZmL5UCBKK28kwC0Ot t0sQblhMyIDMq5jBMVXUj9vd6S5ozys0PQcQaAqlBEALw_wcB

[Bill Dufour]

Be careful with the one shot lubricator. There is no good way to verify each metering unit is not working. Look at the part each one lubes from time to time and make sure it looks wet with fresh oil.
Bill D.

[Joe Calhoon]

Bill, for the one shot oiler a couple pumps per week if the shop is busy. All the Martin machines have these either with the pump or a press. Their press is a pain to use. This is light oil like 20 wt and just for ways and moving parts. It doesn’t clog up.
my straight line rip has a automatic oiler similar to Bijur using a heavier oil. This has also worked well with the only problem after 20 years is some of the plastic tubing rotted out.

[Correy Smith]

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[Correy Smith]

Sorry guys my attempt of posting pics seems a bit unskilled. Unsure why they came out 90 to the left. I even went back and changed the image ratio to 1:1. Anyways.... Many thanks Joe for replying. Mark has responded to a couple quick emails, but I thought that a public post was more appropriate to share with others and not put anybody on the spot if they are busy. If anyone thinks that I should start a new thread please advise, don't mean to hijack a ongoing thread....
In general, the saw probably has not seen alot of use for many years. The table is micro pitted but still very smooth, more like a patina. The slider ways are in really good shape it seems. There is some bearing wear but think it will probably be fine if I replace the bearings. Doesn't slide any worse than my T130 with cast slider which still makes a fine tenon cut.
I am unsure what the tilt ways are called but any exposed area on them has some very light rust. Any moving parts that have been covered with their mating part is pretty much cherry. I think the oiler when operational and grease zerks really saved this machine even if they haven't been used for some time.
The oil lines are all rotted away but the hardware is still all in tact. I probably will just bring back to original to get started. Too much going on to get overboard.
The dado extension is missing but have the original arbor nut and flanges. I hear you on not puling anything if not needed. The arbor bearing from the 5 seconds I ran it sounded fine. And feels fine. I have not mic'd it for run out.
Tilt , up/down, slider, and fence, all moving well enough to use. The one thing that took a few hours of lube and wiggle was the arbor lock. But it's freed up enough to work properly now. It's in a tight spot and after two hours of wiggle left me with blisters between my fingers. lol. I think I get a little OCD sometimes...
I will replace the slider bearings and fence bearings. We have a great bearing and belt shop locally. A boon for being 2500 miles of shore.
My height lock doesn't lock. Seems maybe there was supposed to be a washer or something behind the turn knob?
I included a pic of the electrical box if anyone can walk me thru testing some things. I'm getting some weird continuity across all three lines for a single point on the other end so unsure if that is proper.
I did find the main breaker switch seems working. But unsure of the other components. I would probably quickly opt for an easier set up to replace the whole thing. It was an Eric Riebling Co. import.
One thing I see when looking at the range of modifications that martin made on these is the right side table insert that is held with screws. Joe, yours is longer than mine. The whole insert set up is a little wonky and you invented the best option for next to zero clearance as you can get I think. The right side little insert on mine seems to only be there for the leading edge of the blade.

[John Pendery]

Man I wish I had friends like you, Correy! A free T17 is a ridiculous score! I have a similar vintage T17 that I plan to fully restore down the road, but don’t have the time to commit to that just yet and the saw runs great as is. Mine is missing the dust chute unfortunately so I’ll have to fabricate one. Yours looks like it has a lot of potential. I don’t have the same level of knowledge that Joe and Mark do on these matters, but would strongly encourage you to keep the saw and get it operational. They are very nice machines and run incredibly smooth. The dado extension is really nice to have along with the 1.25” arbor that gives the flexibility to share shaper cutters as Joe mentioned. I take advantage of the ability to do that surprisingly often. Good Luck!
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[Joe Calhoon]

Correy,
Both yours and John’s appear to be maybe one or 2 years older than mine with the E stop down low. They both have the better rip fence.
I actually wish I had the old style cross fence like yours.
I post pictures from a I pad and find if I rotate them once around they usually post fine. Don’t worry about posting your gear on this thread. I like to see other saws.
joe

[Correy Smith]

john, is that a spacer sitting under the nut or is it part of the nut? Seems like it would be easy to get made. Your saw is in pretty good shape. Mine is no far behind it. Completely useable as is. Joe and Mark did just completely amazing restores but I don't know if I will ever get there. Cutting true and reliable is the current goal, which should be a fairly direct path. I'm hoping a VFD or simiiar would be an easy plug and play fix for powering the main motor.

[John Pendery]

Correy, that’s a spacer under the nut. Sorry I made that photo more confusing than it needed to be. My saw came set up with the dado arbor in place, but without the main arbor nut. Joe saved the day on that one providing me with the part number. It’s the same one used on the newer T72’s.

My T17 experienced heavy use in its past, and even with its history required very little work on my part to get it operating accurately. It beats the hell out of any modern cabinet saw I’ve used, but I am partial to these old cast iron German machines. I would assume the same can be said of what you have on your hands.

Joe and Mark’s restorations are works of art. I hope to get my saw there one day, but in the meantime it works for me and earns a valuable place in my shop. I’m happy to do my best to get any information you need that might be helpful.

[derek labian]

Amazing work Joe! I love to see OWWM restored to original glory. In your case, perhaps, better than original.

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Derek! It’s a lot of labor and not something you will ever get a ROI on other than using it for your own pleasure. I’m semi retired and have a little time for this. John and Corry are smart to just get the mechanical working properly and put them into service. The painting and detailing are very labor intensive.

Corry, I will measure the threads and size of the extension nut. McMaster has large metric nuts but not sure if they have LH. The nut should be a simple job for a good machinest.

[Correy Smith]

Hi Joe, John.
Here's my nut and outer flange. Can I assume if you use a dado you leave the inner flange on? How would that work with a shaper groover where the flat around the arbor bore may not be the same as the flange? Since the flange contacts on the outer rim.
In regards to the dado ext and nut, is there a separate nut specific to the extension? Could you not use the regular nut with spacers? It would be really cool to use my adjustable groovers for dado on the saw since they are already 1.25".

Just curious Joe, How many hours/days do you think you had tied up in breaking down and painting the saw? Did you start yours before Mark , were you guys doing this at the same time? Bewtween both of your generous photos digests you'd be saving someone days of head scratching.

Oh, hey, another question for John, joe, who ever knows... The sliding arbor lock, There's the slotted screw that comes down thru the top in the trunnion block and holds it. When I was looking at Mark's rebuild of that his spindle lock rod has two grooves. There doesn't seem anyway to remove it without pulling the top off. The screw on mine if backed off 1/4 turn from tight seems to act as a stop for the rod in and out. Feels like there is a flat on top of the rod. Are you supposed to lock the rod in place with the screw or is the screw just for depth stopping?

As far as switches, I see a number of these machines on EU sites that have some sort of simple mag start. Is that even an option with this type of motor?
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[Joe Calhoon]

Correy,
I don’t use the flange with the dado extension as it is a different nut. The hole is larger on the flange to accept the shoulder of the normal nut.
Not remembering but I think the top has to be off to remove the spindle lock. That screw holds a spring loaded ball detent.
I measured the nut and it is 2mm thread spacing X 30mm LH. I think different from the arbor nut but I will check.

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[Joe Calhoon]

The saw I did not keep track of time. It was 5 or 6 months of part time. I did keep track when I did the T23 shaper. It was ridiculous- around 250 plus hrs. The saw was a lot quicker. Learned a lot with the shaper. If your dealing with rust that adds a lot of time.

[John Pendery]

Correy, here are some additional photos the the arbor extension setup to compliment Joe’s examples. Trying to show how it goes together which is why the one photo shows them just starting to thread together. The ability to share shaper cutters and spacers is really nice and a huge benefit in my shop.

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[Correy Smith]

Hi guys I think you gave me plenty of info to get the dado ext. made.
I'm getting some good help on OWWM.org with the controls too.

Joe, 250 hours seems pretty reasonable for the results. How'd you get the table so shiny to bare metal? Lemon juice?
Thanx again big help guys.

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Corry,
Scotchbrite in an orbital sander works pretty well for making things shiny. Some people take it to another level using a buffing wheel and compound.
Mark is a very talented and experienced machine rebuilder and I’m sure his restoration was a lot quicker than mine. On both the saw and shaper I had to back up several times to redo things. I do enjoy it and find it relaxing. And frustrating at times!

[Correy Smith]

So what type of grease for the arbor and pulley are you using?
Are you also using the 20w20 oil for lube points or??

[Correy Smith]

Also curious what size belts are original size. Seems like mine are not exact fit....

[Joe Calhoon]

Correy, I’ve always used the oil and grease Martin supplies that came with my newer machines. The oil seems like about a 20wt. They call the grease long term and it is white color. With the old machines the question is always what did the previous owner use. They might have a spec for the grease. I’ll take a look in the manuals.
I can check my belt length. They suspend the motor (I think) so length should not be critical.

[Correy Smith]

Hi joe, I get you on what ever they used previously. Who knows really. No squeeze out any where to guess. Isn't white typically lithium?
I think , like you suggest the length of the belt not so critical. The belts that came with the saw don't seem to sit proper in the pulley v grooves.
The saw seems to run smooth. It has so much mass that I am unsure if you would feel anything out of balance, or bad belt while at speed. What I am experiencing is a little vibration at the very end of the motor slowing to stop. The belts look pretty new. I think my friend's uncle maybe replaced them.500561

Pulleys could probably be brightened up too it looks like......

[John Pendery]

Correy, when I was looking for the proper grease for a couple Martin machines Ed Papa recommended Kluber as an alternative to sourcing directly from Martin.

[Joe Calhoon]

Correy,
here is a picture of my belts. They are what came with the machine and not sure if they are correct but seem to be fine. I ran the numbers and believe yours are the same length but wider.
a bad belt can cause vibration on slow down. On my T23 I ordered a new belt from Martin when I rebuilt it. It had a vibration on slowdown that I could never figure out. At one of our workshops a skilled machinest was here and he played with it and discovered the belt was bad.
I put the original belt on that came with it and ran fine. I think the new belt from Martin had been sitting on the shelf for years and deformed.

Bad motor bearings can also do that. These are easy to change but a bearing heater helps for the install.

agree with John about the grease.

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[Correy Smith]

That's really helpful Joe, John.
Thank you for all your goodwill in providing info and supporting images.
The manual makes it sound like pulling the motor is a breeze. I was kinda doubting the release motor and remove with two hands. My Aussie buddy was here and we was looking at it and the location trying to figure out how one person could lift the motor out of a hole on his knees lol. He reminded me that "two hands" is probably two people as they might say in Europe.

I think I am finally all set. Everybody's input has been extremely helpful and supportive. Many thanks.
Joe, on my way out, is there a site that shows all the possibilities that your Rangate head you pictured on your T17 with dado ext. can do? The head specifically not necessarily on the T17.

[Joe Calhoon]

Correy,
the head in the picture above is a Garniga Multiuse head. Rangate has the newer version that is about the same. They should have info on their site. It is basically a large adjustable groover that can be used in many configurations with slots for grooving and edge rounding cutters. Also capable of furniture size tenons. Its only 160mm diameter so depth of cut is limited on the T17. 140 diameter tools will not raise above the table. I also have a 250 diameter 15 to 30 adj groover that I use for light tenoning on the shaper and as a groover in the saw. And just had my old Systematic dado set bored to 1.25 for the saw. It was my favorite from cabinet saw days.