Drum Sander upgrade

[Jim Barstow]

I have a Supermax 19-38 drum sander and am considering an upgrade. I wasn’t sure how much I’d use it but it’s become a key part of my workflow. A project now starts with wood that is perfectly dimensioned with no mill marks and no snipe. My shop is pretty full and I have no space for a wide-belt sander plus I really don’t want to add in the additional infrastructure (i.e., compressor) that a wide belt needs. Are there any drum sanders out there that are a step up in quality and power? The open-ended design has always concerned me and I spent a bunch of time making sure the surfaces were parallel; I’d rather go with a closed design that is more stable. General seems to be out of business. Grizzly now has a South Bend drum sander but it has zero reviews. Anything else that would be considered better than the Supermax?

[Warren Lake]

No secret I think drum sanders stink for sanding and are for dimensioning lumber. If you are sanding your wood when you begin a project then you will be dulling your tooling all the way through when you do further machining to it.

[Jonathan Jung]

I researched this extensively and settled on the Supermax 37 x 2. From everything I read, the only upgrade above your machine is a closed end model, without going to a widebelt. My 37x2 dimensions really well, within .01" across the 37" width. The setup is key, like any machine. It has the 3hp motor which is strong enough to remove heavy amounts on full width panels. The key is to get the grit right. Too fine a grit and it will have problems more easily. I use 80g for dimensioning.

[Cary Falk]

I have the SuperMax 25/50 and think that SuperMax is probably the best in it's class of sanders. That being said it sounds like your planer need to be fixed of it's snipe. I don't have any snipe on mine. I consider a drum sander to have mill marks in the fact that it still needs a ROS before finishing.

[Alex Zeller]

Do you need the open end of what you have now? If not then I would look into something like a Woodmaster. I have an older 26" wide one with the reverse switch. You can feed the board in and once you hear the sanding stop you can reverse the direction and get a second pass without walking around the sander. My plan was to get something like the Supermax 19-38 but I couldn't act quick enough when one came up used and I just never got around to buying one new. The Woodmaster style of sander is much more substantial than the open end sanders but take up about the same amount of floor space. I would try to figure out how wide you need and then figuring out what will work for you.

[John TenEyck]

My advise is to get a dual drum as wide as you need with a 5 hp motor. Mine is 24" wide and covers 95% of my needs. Dual drum is just a lot more efficient than a single drum, provided you have enough HP to drive them both. I keep 80 or 100 grit on both drums. I'm not suggesting you use it as a planer, but it takes significant power to take off even 0.005" on something 24" wide with 2 drums.

For Warren's benefit, I also run almost every piece of stock through my drum sander before machining the parts I need. I've never noticed any shortening of tool life whether power or hand tool. If there is it's not enough to be of concern.

I agree with Cary who said a drum sander leaves mill marks and you still need to use a ROS and/or hand sanding. What a drum sander does do exceptionally well is sand surfaces dead flat and eliminate tearout, snipe, etc. from a planer. It is a wonderful machine for dimensioning shop sawn veneer.

John

[Warren Lake]

Not my benefit its to your benefit. If you are industry its important not to be going backwards. Grit gets embedded in the wood from the sanding process, even more so from a drum sander that has a high contact pressure. I learned that at least 40 years ago.

If you don't believe me find a sandpaper supplier who knows they are doing, not a salesman in a nice shirt like the last 3M guy that replaced the one before who knew what he was talking about.

Its fact.

[John TenEyck]

I've been using a drum sander to prep wood for 15 years. I haven't seen my chisels or hand planes get dull any faster than before. That's fact enough for me.

John

[Mike Wilkins]

I went from a Performax 16-32 to the Woodmaster 25" dual drum sander. I keep 100 grit on the first drum and 120 on the 2nd. Lately I have been using it for leveling cutting board glue-ups, as my Hammer J/P leaves a finish ready for 150 grit on the random orbit. For surfacing rougher lumber I would go 80 and 100.
Make sure your dust collector is up to the task, as these machines can generate some dust.

[Jim Barstow]

Couple of replies

Has supermax declined since bought by Laguna?

After expanding my skills into machining, my standards for accuracy have gotten a lot tighter and when I dimension wood I like to get it to within a couple thousandth’s. This is hard to do on a planer (at least mine) where you can’t take 0.005 in a pass. The snipe is not really visible but I can feel it and measure it. Since the end of the board is where a lot of joints are cut, I want to eliminate all of it. I used to mill boards long then just cut it off. Don’t need to do that anymore.

Seems like I use my drum sander differently in that I use 150 grit almost exclusively. I’m not trying to remove ”large” amounts of wood, just a couple hundredths at the most. I’ve learned that I’ve got to make lots of light passes but I end up with material that is perfect and only requires a little work with a ROS or hand sanding.

As to leaving grit, you have to integrate both the possibility of something happening and the magnitude of the effect. It may be an established fact that sanding leaves grit but what is the magnitude of the problem? It would have to be a substantial amount to cause enough dulling to be a problem. I suspect that if you examined sanded wood under a microscope you’d see residual sandpaper grit but not enough to really effect anything. I’ve not seen the problem and the benefit of perfectly dimensioned lumber far outweighs the potential downside.

[Warren Lake]

Amazing how many guys here are smarter than trained european cabinetmakers and the sandpaper companies that make the paper you use.

You want to see what you are doing in fast forward because you are convinced it does nothing then run some barn board, its exactly the same thing embedded grit. The barn board will take about 20 minutes to trash your knives.

Go ask a sandpaper supplier and learn what you dont know and refuse to accept.

[Rick Potter]

I have had a 37" Woodmaster for over 15 years. It replaced a Delta open end, which was much lighter duty. No complaints. I also process pieces before assembly now, and have no complaints about the machine.

The only thing I would change is that I wish I had gotten the 25" model, as I found I don't need the width.

It has been trouble free for me, if you can use a closed end type.

[Richard Coers]

No secret I think drum sanders stink for sanding and are for dimensioning lumber. If you are sanding your wood when you begin a project then you will be dulling your tooling all the way through when you do further machining to it.
You must use some really cheap sandpaper. When I ran a custom woodworking business, every board went from the thickness planer to the stroke sander. I didn't see any grit, nor did I get excessive wear on any other tooling. I had a part time business for 15 years before going full time and adding the stroke sander. So plenty of experience with tooling wear before using the stroke sander.

[Mel Fulks]

Any machining should be done before any sanding. Many times I’ve had to run beads, ogees,etc. on sanded wood brought to me by the
village radio toting ,comic book reading ,care-free know-nothing. Pick up an un- sanded block of clean wood. Sand one side. Run a sharp
knife over the unsanded side several times. Knife will still be sharp. Then do test on sanded side. You will teach yourself.

[Warren Lake]

good grief

one more that doesnt he doesnt know. If you did that in the shop the old guy ran you would get your ass kicked.

I used many different papers starting with Hermes then to 3M. Others as well.

Id be impressed if you actually listened and called up a belt supplier and got an experienced guy, he would confirm what I said. Instead its easier "I see nothing"

[Warren Lake]

thanks Mel you got in while I was typing.

There were a lot of good people that did great work on this site that have vapourized in the last years. Usually I heard I dont need the grief or nonsense.

Really miss the old guys I knew, be nice if they could return for a day here or there.

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks, Warren. Some things are intuitive, but I don’t think the imbedded grit is one of them. I still remember thinking it was a nutty
precaution ! But my early bosses gave decrees….not suggestions.

[George Waldner]

I have had to hand plane wood after hand sanding, and plane iron dulled instantly. I use a drum sander now, and then cut panels to size on table saw. Sometimes I use a handplane to trim an edge, and really dont notice any dulling. I think that drum sander paper is a lot tougher than sanding sheets intended for hand sanding, and does not lose as much grit on the wood. I also dont think that embedded grit affects carbide tools as much as a plane iron. Also, realistically, if someone is chiseling dovetails on a drum sanded board the chisel will get dulled a lot faster chopping end grain than by stray grit. Yesterday I sanded a bunch of drawer bottoms to 3/16" with drum sander and trimmed with table saw. A thickness planer really doesnt do that well in such thin material. I have thicknessed drawer bottoms and 1/4" drawer sides with a handplane but really dont feel like doing it anymore. To summarize, sanding grit dulling tools is a real thing, but a thickness sander does such a great job for some of us hobbiest, that we have decided to live with it.

[mreza Salav]

I have a (Made in USA) 37x2 Supermax with 5HP motor. I have 80g/120g paper on it. It's a good machine but it's hard to get rid of sanding marks using ROS so I try to avoid using it unless it's absolutely needed (using sharp edges on a well tuned planer, I go straight to ROS). When I was building a lot of passage doors I used the full width of it to send the doors through after glue-ups to flatten them. Worked very well....

[Mel Fulks]

I alway used one grit coarser for the orbital sanding. Then the finish grit orbital . That works pretty fast.

[Jebediah Eckert]

I have been using The ROS on the same grit as the drum sander, and still find it sloooow…I’m going to try Mel’s way and drop back a grit, thanks!

[Sam Puhalovich]

I'm surprised that there hasn't been any mention of the Oscillating Spindle Sander.
My first drumsander was a Woodmaster 718 with the multi-kit that you could use with saws and planer blades. The bed flexed ... only way that I could come close to getting a even cut across the board was to run down-the-middle ... and everything sniped. Going-back through the set-up-alignment I had the 'sides' set to cut the same within .002 ... when I ran the same piece down-the-middle ... the cutter missed-it completely ... there was a .010 flex from the sides to the middle.
Searching for a improvement I came across the Jet 22/44 OSS ... the oscillating function leaves a finish pretty-much equivalent to a ROS. I found that I could run pine without loading-up the paper when run in the oscillating mode ... and very soon ... for the last 8 years ... I've been doing just like John TenEyck ... everything is being sized thru the sander. I now mainly use the jointer for edging and the planer (thicknesser) for extensive stock removal. I get better all-round results using the sander with a sled. I've been using 80 grit for stock-removal ... and just ordered some 60 grit to get less dependent on the planer.
I was skeptical about the open-end drum-overarm ... and it HAS always been a pain to re-set since the parallelism changes when the screws are tightened ... persistence pays-off.

463607

I've been able to gang-sand stiles ... any group of strips ... with hardly a measureable variation ... using 150 grit ... a pass with a ROS with 220 grit before unclamping nets a ready-for-finish surface.
A few months-ago I looked at the new model and noted that instead of adjusting the overarm the table is now adjusted for alignment when sanding wider than 22" materials ... I 'adapted' that feature with a .010 shim at the 'outboard' side of the table for a recent 28" wide panel ... that worked much better.

[Rod Dilyard]

Amazing how many guys here are smarter than trained european cabinetmakers and the sandpaper companies that make the paper you use.

You want to see what you are doing in fast forward because you are convinced it does nothing then run some barn board, its exactly the same thing embedded grit. The barn board will take about 20 minutes to trash your knives.

Go ask a sandpaper supplier and learn what you dont know and refuse to accept.

I've been woodworking as a hobby since I was a teenager and since I'm only 60 I realize that I'm just a youngster and lack experience. I'm always open to new ideas so when I read this thread I thought I'd re-examine my workflow since, like some others who replied, I hadn't noticed the damage that my drum sander was inflicting on the tooling that followed. I decided to start with a rough-sawn piece of oak and ripped a piece about 4" wide and 5' long. Two passes on each side through the 15" helical head planer had it pretty smooth. I then ran it through my 24" 5HP dual drum sander (50 grit on the front and 80 grit on the rear) to remove the snipe. 2 light passes and it looked pretty good. Here's where it gets interesting - I then took it over to the miter saw to cross cut it and, well, here's a picture of the blade after I was done.

463664

I guess I never noticed the sparks and flying debris before reading this thread. To get a better understanding of this I put out the fire and took the freshly cut pieces of oak over to my electron microscope.

463665

I bought at a yard sale because it was a good deal. It takes up a lot of shop space, but as you'll see it uncovered something amazing. Here's a close up of the wood right after sanding.

463666

As you can see, when magnified to 10x it looks pretty rough, but when you magnify it to 10,000x you get this:

463667

That's right! Completely embedded with sanding grit! I was shocked that I never noticed this before. I then tried to but an edge on one of the sanded boards (one that wasn't burnt) and here's the bit:

463668

At first glance it looks fine, but it started out as a Roman Ogee bit!

I was in shock at the damage done! Just on a fluke I decided to check some of my other tools and look at this:

463669

A phillips screwdriver that was just sitting in a drawer is now ruined and a wire brush that was hanging on the wall 25' away now has bent bristles!

463670

As one final test I took the last unburnt piece and ran it back through my planer and now this is happening outside my house:

463679

I am just livid! I tried calling my sandpaper salesman, but remembered that I don't have one. He's probably in on the conspiracy anyway. I don't know what to do now. I thought I was happy with how I did things and was pretty sure I was producing some nice pieces, but now I know I was just fooling myself. All of my tools are ruined and it's all because of that stupid drum sander! I guess my only choice is to give up the hobby or plan a trip to Europe to learn from the old world masters.

[John TenEyck]

Just about spit out my drink.

John

[Malcolm McLeod]

I've been woodworking as a hobby ... learn from the old world masters.


Just about spit out my drink.

John

I can't even see the pictures, but was able to follow your process quite nicely via the narrative. I too, think you should give up. But there is hope ... I'm sure you have a wonderful future as a writer. :cool:

And I need a towel for my drink as well!!

[richard poitras]

I have had a 37" Woodmaster for over 15 years. It replaced a Delta open end, which was much lighter duty. No complaints. I also process pieces before assembly now, and have no complaints about the machine.

The only thing I would change is that I wish I had gotten the 25" model, as I found I don't need the width.

It has been trouble free for me, if you can use a closed end type.

Plus #1 on the Woodmaster sander, I had two 38'' units over the years and a open end sander and the Woodmaster blow them away. Great machines for a drum sander, they are the best one out there in my opion.

[Patty Hann]

I've been woodworking as a hobby since I was a teenager and since I'm only 60 I realize that I'm just a youngster and lack experience. I'm always open to new ideas so when I read this thread I thought I'd re-examine my workflow since, like some others who replied, I hadn't noticed the damage that my drum sander was inflicting on the tooling that followed.



I guess I never noticed the sparks and flying debris before reading this thread. To get a better understanding of this I put out the fire and took the freshly cut pieces of oak over to my electron microscope.

463665



As one final test I took the last unburnt piece and ran it back through my planer and now this is happening outside my house:

463679

I am just livid! I tried calling my sandpaper salesman, but remembered that I don't have one. He's probably in on the conspiracy anyway. I don't know what to do now. I thought I was happy with how I did things and was pretty sure I was producing some nice pieces, but now I know I was just fooling myself. All of my tools are ruined and it's all because of that stupid drum sander! I guess my only choice is to give up the hobby or plan a trip to Europe to learn from the old world masters.

Very cool E-M. Been looking for one myself the past 3 months (missed out on the Black Friday sales). How much was it?

[Carl Beckett]

I have had a number of sanders over the years. Performax. Grizzly dual drum. A little reliant 13” belt that was a beast! A Woodtek belt. A timesaver (too big). Before settling in on one of the 16” open ended belt sanders. Yes you need air but small amounts (some have electronic tracking but might still need air, not sure)

Drum sanders are popular and I used them all a lot. The open ended belt sander takes less space in the shop and is heavier duty all around. It might be worth considering.

[Nick Lazz]

Hands down, best post I’ve read here in quite some time! 🤣

[Michael Burnside]

I've been using a drum sander to prep wood for 15 years. I haven't seen my chisels or hand planes get dull any faster than before. That's fact enough for me.

John

Same experience. Quite pleased with how the 19-38 works for me and my workflow. It doesn't replace the orbital, but it really helps with glue-ups and other minor dimensioning tasks that a planer would otherwise not do adequately or the work is too delicate for.

To the OP, if you're happy with Lagua I'd stick with that brand since you know the machine and paper is working for you.

@ RonDilyard I salute you!