Determining appropriate design for a ladder shelf

[Michael Jasper]

Hi all -
My daughter asked me to build her a ladder type shelf - the free-standing kind. In looking around, I've see quite a variety in terms of construction features- some with a shelf or cross piece at the very top, some that come to almost a point at the top, some with cross-braces in the back. Some have no boards between the front and rear upright elements other than the shelves - while others add additional pieces between the uprights and or between the sides.

So my question is - how does one determine the appropriate design to provide adequate stability and strength? I'm planning to make it out of oak and use joinery - no screws or nails for the most part. Although I've seen dozens of different designs in commercial products, I've not come across anything that would provide some guidelines for design choices that impact strength.

Any thoughts? Am I overthinking this?

Thanks,
Michael

[Ronald Blue]

I have built several. Somewhere I have a rough sketch in the shop with the dimensions I used. I cut dado's in the legs that the shelves just fit in. There were 5 shelves ranging from as I recall about 11" at the top and increasing to about 21 or 22" at the bottom. I'm going from memory though so I could be wrong. The key is the back of each shelf is in line with the one below. When against the wall they all touch. Even on hard wood floors it stayed put nicely. I might be able to come up with photos but I found the design I made on here and drew up my own dimensions. I've attached an image from one I found online that is basically the same.

https://ak1.ostkcdn.com/images/products/is/images/direct/a736987f48f8e011751f20bb622a5d77f0107119/Sheridan-Transitional-Ladder-Bookcase.jpg

[Kevin Jenness]

I would want to secure something like that to the wall just in case with keyhole fasteners or some similar hardware, or even a long pocket screw into a stud through the bottom of a low shelf.

[David Bassett]

I just (truly & literally) noticed Lee Valley has an article about doing this. Maybe some of the information would be useful to your design:

Building A Leaning Ladder-Style Display Shelf (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/discover/woodworking/build-a-leaning-ladder-style-display-shelf)

[johnny means]

My main goal would be joinery that won't allow the shelves to rotate downwards. racking forces won't be that great, unless it's loaded up with books or bricks. I used to build ladders for my children's furniture that were pretty much built like your photo. Joinery was nothing but dados in the sides and glue. I never had any issues and assume they were exposed to much harsher conditions than a shelf would ever see.

[Ronald Blue]

My main goal would be joinery that won't allow the shelves to rotate downwards. racking forces won't be that great, unless it's loaded up with books or bricks. I used to build ladders for my children's furniture that were pretty much built like your photo. Joinery was nothing but dados in the sides and glue. I never had any issues and assume they were exposed to much harsher conditions than a shelf would ever see.

Agreed, the legs were 1-1/2" thick with a 3/4" deep dado. While they weren't hammer drive tight they were close enough the shelves weren't going anywhere. I think I glued the shelves in place as well.

[Michael Jasper]

Thanks all. As I mentioned, I'm planning on a freestanding version, ie two sets of legs, rather than leaning on the wall. I'm using 3/4" white oak. Legs 1.5" wide is the recommendation?

[Ronald Blue]

Thanks all. As I mentioned, I'm planning on a freestanding version, ie two sets of legs, rather than leaning on the wall. I'm using 3/4" white oak. Legs 1.5" wide is the recommendation?

So you are going to build the style with two vertical and two diagonal legs? As for the size I would think it will depend on the shelf design. Small lip on the sides and back so small legs but larger lip then larger legs to keep it all proportional. I think I used 1 x 4's for both legs and shelf lip. The legs were doubled but in a free standing style that wouldn't be needed. Actually its returning slowly to me since it's been a few years. The first one I made I cut angled dado's. Subsequent one's I cut the short blocks and glued them into place. Much easier way to do it with the same result. The nice thing is you can alter the design to suit your tastes easily.

[Jim Becker]

Iff it's still going to be placed at a wall, make sure the design accounts for things like baseboard/shoe, etc., unless you intentionally want a large gap at the back of the shelves. Even though the unit is "open", there is this same challenge as with a traditional shelving unit.

[Michael Jasper]

Hi Jim, could you elaborate? As far as the gap... Are you saying extend the shelves beyond the rear legs to fill the gap? How would you want the design to account for baseboard?

[Kelson Ditch]

Are you envisioning something like this:

463375


(apologies for the clutter and rotated image)

[Jim Becker]

Hi Jim, could you elaborate? As far as the gap... Are you saying extend the shelves beyond the rear legs to fill the gap? How would you want the design to account for baseboard?
Yes, I'm suggesting that the rear legs...if they are just straight sticks, at least...will be away from the wall if there's a baseboard/shoe. Now this is subjective, but I think the unit would look somewhat weird if the back wasn't against the wall. (and it really is a best practice for any kind of shelving unit to be connected to the wall at the top in some unobtrusive way for safety, although if it's short and there are no kids or rambunctious animals in the house it may be ok) So you could just extend the shelves that extra inch and a half, give or take or do a contoured rear leg design that provides enough material to notch out for the baseboard/shoe. Again, subjective, but something to consider. I'm actually glad this thread was posted as this kind of design would be perfect for the areas on either side of the fireplace in our new home to display artwork, etc.

[Michael Jasper]

Something like this is what I'm planning...
463390

[Jim Becker]

Looks nice. The photo is small on my screen, but it does appear there is wall contact if my eyes are not playing tricks. :) What's nice about that format is that it's likely quicker and easier to move around and it will stand by itself when necessary. I'm debating in my mind if I would want that or prefer the style back in post 2.

[Michael Jasper]

My daughter is just out of college and no doubt will move many times so i figured this format is better for apartment living. Trying to figure out how to do the curved rails at top. Cut them out as one piece or assemble from straight legs and join to the curved pieces to form the inverted U.

[Jim Becker]

For me, joinery first with "non curved" material and then trim to the concour. I think I'd embrace pattern routing to clean up after roughing to shape with a bandsaw and/or jig saw and then round/chamfer the edges to suit preferences. Good point about your daughter potentially moving for frequently for awhile. The "four post" design will be a lot more flexible for that.

[Michael Jasper]

For me, joinery first with "non curved" material and then trim to the concour. I think I'd embrace pattern routing to clean up after roughing to shape with a bandsaw and/or jig saw and then round/chamfer the edges to suit preferences. Good point about your daughter potentially moving for frequently for awhile. The "four post" design will be a lot more flexible for that.

Hi Jim -
Not sure I followed that - are you suggesting to create the top part as a straight horizontal section, join it to the vertical and then contour it? Or to cut out a contoured section on bandsaw, smooth with router, and then join to the verticals? I think the latter is probably what you meant.

By the way, is there any good way to create a joint that would allow easy breakdown for moving without using Ikea style hardware? Would a mortise/tenon that is not glued be reasonable, or is that not really stable enough? It's probably hard to see on that photo I posted, but it looked like they might have done something like that for shipping (of course, that was a commercial one that was shipped unassembled). I was thinking if I could allow it to be separated into sections along the verticals, it would be easier to put into a car.

Thanks!
Michael

[Jim Becker]

I would build each side as a unit and then do the shaping of the curved parts at the top...the rail would have to be oversize. Then remove excess "proud of the line", clean up and do edge treatments. Alternatively, do the same but not glue it up so the parts could be shaped close before final assembly, cleanup and edge treatment. To make this knock-down, I'd likely handle it via the connections between the sides and the shelves. There are quite a few ways to do that, ranging from stopped sliding dovetails to fancy knock-down hardware methods. I would not make the sides break down, however. Any mechanical fasteners can be largely hidden with careful design and coloration.

[Mike Ontko]

Michael, I'm just offering another possible design suggestion. I'm currently building (for my daughter) a Mid-Century style bookcase based on the photo below. When finished the general dimensions are approximately 71" h x 38" w x 14" d.

463432 463434

[Michael Jasper]

Thanks Mike! Nice sketch and design. What do you use for the sketches, by the way?

[Charles P. Wright]

I made this one and a matching vanity for our bathroom. As Jim pointed out, the back legs are forward to avoid the baseboard. I did not do any complex joinery, I just put screws into the sides of the shelves, which are not visible unless you turn over on your back and look up. They are edged with 1x2, but the middle is just 3/4" plywood, so it is a convenient place to hide the screws. If you use glue instead of making it disassemble, I think floating tenons would be a pretty easy way to do it.

[Mike Ontko]

Thanks Mike! Nice sketch and design. What do you use for the sketches, by the way?

Sorry for the slow follow-up, I'm out of the daily habit of checking for updates in SMC :/

The image I'd included on the left came from the original image photos that I found through Pinterest. The image on the right is what I drew using SketchUp, so I could figure out some of the dimensions and angles for the side frames. I'd be happy to send the file if you're interested.