BG auto products.

[Dave Lehnert]

A lot of opinions but like to hear from a auto tech or someone in the know.

Are BG additives worth the money? I'm not big on additives other than injector cleaner.

My trusted repair shop I have used for years and years recommended BG PM109 and MOA after I did have a control valve solenoid (intake and exhaust) replaced because it was plugged up. A common problem for my SUV.
The dealer AWAYS push BG stuff. I never trusted the dealer so never had it done. My trusted shop never pushes it but did recommend it this time. Again I trust them 100% so I gave the go ahead.

Just like to know with my new car purchase planed in a year and a half if I should make it a regular part of my maintenance? Just like a mechanic point of view who is not selling me the product or anyone who has regularly used it and noticed a difference.

[Jim Becker]

Other than in some very specific situations with specific vehicles/engines, I doubt that there is much benefit to using additives other than to the retailer and the manufacturer. If you are using a good quality, "top tier" fuel, there's already plenty of detergents and other things in the fuel, so it would be very surprising to me that adding something else would have much, if any effect, including "targeting" specific parts. Good fuel and regular maintenance per the manufacturer schedule or sooner should do the job.

[Ronald Blue]

I'm inclined to agree with Jim. Unless your driving conditions are unique I'm doubtful you would see any benefit to additives. Usually they are a hail mary to try to avoid more extensive internal work. In my opinion/experience the hardest thing on any engine is not being driven long enough to reach full operating temperature. Two blocks to the store 3 times a week but never any drives of at least a few miles to get all components fully warmed up and moisture burnt out. We've probably all saw vehicles that they start them up and literally have water running out the exhaust almost immediately even in warm weather. That's a result of not getting hot enough to burn the moisture out. Long term it will become an issue.

[Bob Turkovich]

A lot of opinions but like to hear from a auto tech or someone in the know.

Are BG additives worth the money? I'm not big on additives other than injector cleaner.

My trusted repair shop I have used for years and years recommended BG PM109 and MOA after I did have a control valve solenoid (intake and exhaust) replaced because it was plugged up. A common problem for my SUV.
The dealer AWAYS push BG stuff. I never trusted the dealer so never had it done. My trusted shop never pushes it but did recommend it this time. Again I trust them 100% so I gave the go ahead.

Just like to know with my new car purchase planed in a year and a half if I should make it a regular part of my maintenance? Just like a mechanic point of view who is not selling me the product or anyone who has regularly used it and noticed a difference.

In my 35 plus years working for an automotive OEM (retired in 2008), I neither experienced nor heard of an OEM approving any specific after market product for their vehicles. This included the period from 2000 - 2008 to where my department had responsibility for (among other components) fuel injector systems, air/exhaust control valves, etc.. These particular components are not designed by the OEM's but rather by the major component suppliers (such as Bosch, Siemens, Continental, Delphi, etc.) under the concept of "black box designs". The OEM provides the performance requirements of the parts and specific mating parameters (e.g., injector o-ring to manifold material) but leave the component internals and expertise up to the supplier (e.g., internal injector o-ring design and material) allowing the supplier to develop their advantage over their competition (e.g., pricing and performance). The OEM and chosen supplier then jointly coordinate the verification program to prove out the design.

The OEM's and suppliers do not have manpower and capital to test every after-market additive. In addition, the after-market additive suppliers do not have the facilities/capability to endurance test every vehicle/application that they are selling to.

Back in that time frame I had a vehicle at the dealer for an unrelated issue. The write-up tech tried to push a BG program. Here's how the conversation went:

Is this stuff approved by the manufacturer?
Absolutely!
I have the corporate fuel injector specialist on my speed dial. Should I call him to confirm? (It was not an idle threat - he was on my speed dial...)
I guess you're not interested in the package...

There is a time and place for using injector cleaners but it should be one under the name of the name of the OEM. Back in the time above, it was a cleaner that was made by an after-market supplier but had been approved by the injector manufacturers we had sourced to.

[Bob Turkovich]

Other than in some very specific situations with specific vehicles/engines, I doubt that there is much benefit to using additives other than to the retailer and the manufacturer. If you are using a good quality, "top tier" fuel, there's already plenty of detergents and other things in the fuel, so it would be very surprising to me that adding something else would have much, if any effect, including "targeting" specific parts. Good fuel and regular maintenance per the manufacturer schedule or sooner should do the job.

How do you know which fuel is "top-tier"?

While I agree with the concept, it may be more complex than you think. I had experience with Fuels & Lubricants specialists back in 2007 and found that service station supplies are refinery-based more than brand name based. For example, a BP station may get BP gas one week and Exxon gas the next - they are only contracted to sell their instore products (oil, coolant, etc. ) from their parent company and not the gas...and Sam's Club/Costco get whatever the cheapest blend the refinery is selling that week (which may be that BP gas one week and "xxxx" brand the next...)

Those same specialists conducted quality audits every couple of years and the highest quality gas was - at the time - from a regional chain in the Midwest known for their competitive pricing. Based on the above, they stopped doing the audits.

This may have changed since 2007, but I doubt it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I bought an 86 Toyota 4-Runner 4WD with a 2.2L RE engine. My daughter and her husband (now EX) had both graduated with a college degree in automotive mechanics. The SIL was working for a dealership for one of the major US manufacturers. Every 20 months or so, I would notice the 4-Runner would start idling roughly at a stop sign or stop light. The fix was to take it to the dealer and pay approximately $250 to have the injectors cleaned. After the 2nd time, I got fed up with the expenditure. I called the SIL inquired about the cost of the professional injector cleaner tools and asked his advice. He recommended I fill the tank with Chevron gas which had a Techron injector cleaner additive, buy a bottle of the Techron additive and add it to the tank. Then put the vehicle on the road until it need to be filled up again. Then stick with Chevron gas. I did as he instructed and never had to have injectors cleaned again in that 4-Runner or any of my company cars or other personal cars since then. At the time, Chevron was considered a top tier gas.

[Kev Williams]

My only experience with injector cleaners was way back in the 80's. My '84 Buick Regal Ttype started running really funky after some bad gas came to town. I pulled the 6 injectors and took them to an injector shop. It was a Friday afternoon just before they closed. The guy put the 6 injectors in the machine and ran a test spray. The differential was 73%. He said that was BAD. One of the injectors would only 'pee', it wouldn't even spray. He then fired up the acetone, and the machine power washed the injectors the entire weekend. The guy didn't shut the machine down until I came in Monday at lunch time. He stopped the cleaning and ran another spray test. Differential was now 97%. The 'pee' injector was still lagging a bit. He told me that was 'within spec' but if I wanted to wait another day it might come up a bit. I just bought a new injector from him to replace it...

I just figured: If straight acetone spraying thru the injectors @ 90psi for 56 straight hours could barely clean the injectors 'to spec', then I was probably not going to expect some stuff added to the gas tank to help much... ;)

[Bob Turkovich]

I bought an 86 Toyota 4-Runner 4WD with a 2.2L RE engine. My daughter and her husband (now EX) had both graduated with a college degree in automotive mechanics. The SIL was working for a dealership for one of the major US manufacturers. Every 20 months or so, I would notice the 4-Runner would start idling roughly at a stop sign or stop light. The fix was to take it to the dealer and pay approximately $250 to have the injectors cleaned. After the 2nd time, I got fed up with the expenditure. I called the SIL inquired about the cost of the professional injector cleaner tools and asked his advice. He recommended I fill the tank with Chevron gas which had a Techron injector cleaner additive, buy a bottle of the Techron additive and add it to the tank. Then put the vehicle on the road until it need to be filled up again. Then stick with Chevron gas. I did as he instructed and never had to have injectors cleaned again in that 4-Runner or any of my company cars or other personal cars since then. At the time, Chevron was considered a top tier gas.

Thanks for jarring my memory, Ken!

Chevron Techron was the cleaner that the injector suppliers recommended.

[Frederick Skelly]

How do you know which fuel is "top-tier"?

While I agree with the concept, it may be more complex than you think. I had experience with Fuels & Lubricants specialists back in 2007 and found that service station supplies are refinery-based more than brand name based. For example, a BP station may get BP gas one week and Exxon gas the next - they are only contracted to sell their instore products (oil, coolant, etc. ) from their parent company and not the gas...and Sam's Club/Costco get whatever the cheapest blend the refinery is selling that week (which may be that BP gas one week and "xxxx" brand the next...)

Those same specialists conducted quality audits every couple of years and the highest quality gas was - at the time - from a regional chain in the Midwest known for their competitive pricing. Based on the above, they stopped doing the audits.

This may have changed since 2007, but I doubt it.

Bob,
I use this list to identify Top Tier fuel suppliers. There is usually a green "Top Tier" sticker on the pump as well. Do you think this is credible, based on your experience in the business Sir? LINK (https://www.toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/)

[Jim Becker]

How do you know which fuel is "top-tier"?

While I agree with the concept, it may be more complex than you think. I had experience with Fuels & Lubricants specialists back in 2007 and found that service station supplies are refinery-based more than brand name based. For example, a BP station may get BP gas one week and Exxon gas the next - they are only contracted to sell their instore products (oil, coolant, etc. ) from their parent company and not the gas...and Sam's Club/Costco get whatever the cheapest blend the refinery is selling that week (which may be that BP gas one week and "xxxx" brand the next...)

Those same specialists conducted quality audits every couple of years and the highest quality gas was - at the time - from a regional chain in the Midwest known for their competitive pricing. Based on the above, they stopped doing the audits.

This may have changed since 2007, but I doubt it.

You are correct that supplies are refinery-based...in most cases, gasoline isn't "branded" until it's in the tank at the station and you look at the sign. But my understanding is that the system is setup so that orders get the additive packages applied as part of the delivery process so that each "brand" gets gasoline that has the additive formula for the given brand, ranging from "minimal" to "it slices, it dices" for many top-tier brands. Top Tier supposedly encompasses brands that have additive packages that exceed some threshold. It's apparently a licensing situation for the name, however. The listing can be found at: https://www.toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/. Obviously, one has to mentally keep track if this is a shopping thing for them. I keep it easy...99% of the gas I buy comes from Costco because it's the best price in the area and we get another 4% back on the card rebate. They actually do promote that they are a Top Tier brand.

[Ronald Blue]

You are correct that supplies are refinery-based...in most cases, gasoline isn't "branded" until it's in the tank at the station and you look at the sign. But my understanding is that the system is setup so that orders get the additive packages applied as part of the delivery process so that each "brand" gets gasoline that has the additive formula for the given brand, ranging from "minimal" to "it slices, it dices" for many top-tier brands. Top Tier supposedly encompasses brands that have additive packages that exceed some threshold. It's apparently a licensing situation for the name, however. The listing can be found at: https://www.toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/. Obviously, one has to mentally keep track if this is a shopping thing for them. I keep it easy...99% of the gas I buy comes from Costco because it's the best price in the area and we get another 4% back on the card rebate. They actually do promote that they are a Top Tier brand.

I've been told in the past by drivers I knew who were hauling fuel that there were trucks from all the well known chains lined up and being filled from the same fuel source as all the others. In their opinion everyone was receiving the same fuel whatever the additives were. Whether this is valid info I don't know. I've not ever had a fuel injector issue that I can recall. I do know bad gas can cause such things though. I think because of EPA standards etc there are fewer issues with contaminated fuel then there once was. Storage tanks being upgraded mainly.

[Kev Williams]

How do you know which fuel is "top-tier"?

463156 << a list of "Top Tier" retailers--

[Jim Becker]

I've been told in the past by drivers I knew who were hauling fuel that there were trucks from all the well known chains lined up and being filled from the same fuel source as all the others. In their opinion everyone was receiving the same fuel whatever the additives were. Whether this is valid info I don't know. I've not ever had a fuel injector issue that I can recall. I do know bad gas can cause such things though. I think because of EPA standards etc there are fewer issues with contaminated fuel then there once was. Storage tanks being upgraded mainly.


It wouldn't surprise me... :)

Back in 1979 when I briefly worked for Mobil Oil after getting out of school (I ended up not really "fitting into" the strict corporate structure they had at the time) the company had their own refining, their own storage, their own pipeline, their own terminals and their own fleet with custom trailers designed to deliver product efficiently. Once all the mergers and acquisitions and subsequent divestitures of infrastructure hit the industry, that kind of thing became a "dodo bird", for the most part.

[Bob Turkovich]

The 2007 incident I referred to earlier was stuck idle air control valves (not to be confused with stuck throttle!) on a vehicle/engine combination that had been in production for a few years without issue. Teardown of failed parts showed a foreign substance that had built up on the control valve seal. Chemical analysis of the substance determined that the only way it could be present is thru the combustion process. We knew that since day1 we were getting a slight bit of exhaust backflow thru the valve but couldn't understand why the issue just started happening.

We took a deeper dive into the warranty data and found there were zero cases west of the Mississippi or from the New England area. Breaking down the data further showed the cases concentrated on the I-65/75/77 "Snowbird" lanes from the Midwest down to Florida. Customer Relations phone calls to the affected owners revealed that they almost exclusively purchased their gas from wholesalers (i.e., Costco/Sam's Club/Meijers).

It was at that point that we brought the Fuels & Lubricants Specialists into the discussion and learned it was probably refinery dependent (due to an unknown additive) and not station dependent (i.e., don't blame the wholesalers).

In the audits I referred to earlier, the top gas consistently came from Speedway. Their parent company (Marathon) performed OK. At the current Top Tier website, Marathon is listed as Top Tier but Speedway is not.:rolleyes:

Fuels and Lubricants are unusual commodities. I had experience once on pre-production wheel bearings where we had two production runs: one passed, one failed miserably. They came from the same bearing plant off the same line. One was made with Exxon grease made in Hamburg, Germany - the other was made from the same Exxon grease - to the same specifications - made in Pittsburgh but with a different "filler" source. The filler contained material that contributed to excessive wear.

[Edward Weber]

I don't know what BG is
I use Archoil products, they work for me
https://www.archoil.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuLSuzOC48gIVEz2tBh1ocwO6EAAYASA AEgImuvD_BwE

[Malcolm McLeod]

How do you know which fuel is "top-tier"?

While I agree with the concept, it may be more complex than you think. I had experience with Fuels & Lubricants specialists back in 2007 and found that service station supplies are refinery-based more than brand name based. For example, a BP station may get BP gas one week and Exxon gas the next - they are only contracted to sell their instore products (oil, coolant, etc. ) from their parent company and not the gas...and Sam's Club/Costco get whatever the cheapest blend the refinery is selling that week (which may be that BP gas one week and "xxxx" brand the next...)

Those same specialists conducted quality audits every couple of years and the highest quality gas was - at the time - from a regional chain in the Midwest known for their competitive pricing. Based on the above, they stopped doing the audits.

This may have changed since 2007, but I doubt it.

^ True 'dat.

Few stop to think about the infrastructure by which road (et.al.) fuels are delivered. Typically, there is a pipeline from a refinery or cluster of refineries; Corporate 'A' refinery pumps X-gallons of a given octane of fuel into the pipe (very accurately metered via a custody transfer process); 'B' refinery pumps Y-gallons of ~same grade(?) into same pipe; insert pig (no, not the bacon kind); 'C' refinery pumps Z-gallons of a different octane; insert pig - - rinse & repeat. At the other end of the pipe, aka the local delivery terminal, each company (or their customer) gets custody of the amount they put in, regardless of whether it is the actual fuel they physically pumped in. Any corporate specific additives, or octane 'adjustments', are introduced to their fuel when each pulls out their share. One pipeline supplies many distributors and retailers; bottom-line, BP gas may have come from a Chevron refinery. (When the pig arrives, they'll switch flow into a different tank train - hopefully.)

Same with n.gas - anyone can pump (compress) into a distribution pipeline grid so long as their product meets specs (BTUs, H2O, O2, CO2, etc).

Moral: Careful what additive sales pitch you buy into.

(A bit like injecting electrons on powerline, no matter who owns the wires, if you inject agreed power spec on one end, you can bill someone for using it on the other.)

+: I believe all the O/G majors have now divested their US retail outlets..?? Your local Texaco station is under no requirement to buy only Texaco-refined fuels.
++: Finished reading and looks like this AM, Mr. Becker alluded to similar info as in my rant. Pardon the repeat.

[Kev Williams]

I've been told in the past by drivers I knew who were hauling fuel that there were trucks from all the well known chains lined up and being filled from the same fuel source as all the others. In their opinion everyone was receiving the same fuel whatever the additives were.

Every truck may connect to the same 'fill' line, but different brands of gas in any given refinery are stored and distributed separately. Each company 'doctors' their gasoline with their own additives and such. There's 5 refineries within 20 miles of me, several years ago I got the job of making individual brand labels for all the separate pipelines running thru one of these refineries. There may be some sharing between gas companies, I don't really know. But to the best of my knowledge, most gas trucks get loaded with 'their' brand of gas...

[Malcolm McLeod]

... Mobil Oil ..., their own pipeline, ...

Regulatory environment has changed significantly too. Most, if not all, states regulate pipelines as public utilities - with same morass of rules you see impacting electric delivery. The entire corporate structure of a major would have had to operate under these same rules, so the pipelines got spun off quickly. (Parent company may have retained 100% stock ownership, but spin-off still met the objective of 'separation'.)

[Malcolm McLeod]

... trucks get loaded with 'their' brand of gas...

Loading terminal can literally inject the 'brand' additives into the fill neck of the tanker truck.

[Ronald Blue]

Every truck may connect to the same 'fill' line, but different brands of gas in any given refinery are stored and distributed separately. Each company 'doctors' their gasoline with their own additives and such. There's 5 refineries within 20 miles of me, several years ago I got the job of making individual brand labels for all the separate pipelines running thru one of these refineries. There may be some sharing between gas companies, I don't really know. But to the best of my knowledge, most gas trucks get loaded with 'their' brand of gas...

I checked the closest terminal to me geographically and they have "Top Tier" fuel listed. They are an independent fuel distributor operating in 7 states. They have no specific brand affiliation and I know all their terminals are serviced by pipelines which isn't a surprise. What I don't know is whether gas deliveries from here go to the major brands. However I would hazard to say it does. What additives are in the fuel and when are difficult to say. They may well be "doctoring" it up at discharge line. The main thing I take from this is that the base fuel is the same even if additives are added later.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... They may well be "doctoring" it up at discharge line. ...

Hadn't thought about this until I saw your comment, but I have purchased gas at a few stations where you can select from an array of additives that are metered directly into the fuel flow at the very high tech pump. All while watching a pump-borne video claiming resulting additive virtues of faster, cleaner, taller, sexier, AND smarter! (Guessing that the value-add (profit) for the retailer is huge?)

...not sure how you'd actually verify you got this 'extra' that you paid for??

[Alex Zeller]

Every location could be different but at least around here the fuel is supplied by just a couple of distributors. The tanker trucks that fill the stations only have the name of the distributor on them. The fuel is shipped by train to the distributors. I'm sure if there's something specific added to the fuel it could be done by the distributor but otherwise every brand uses the same fuel. Even the tanks in the ground at the stations are owned by the distributor, not the station. I've owned vehicles with over 200,000 miles on the injectors. I'm sure they didn't operate as they did when new but they still did work.

My guess is that most problems with injectors are caused by using fuel from questionable stations. I look for stations that I know sell a lot of fuel. That way I know the fuel isn't stilling in the tank for too long. I also avoid gas stations that also repair cars. We had one around here that was dumping engine oil into the tanks to get rid of it.