Please help. Going NUTS! -- Jointer

[Lincoln Myers]

Please help a woodworker who is about to go NUTS. I am using my jointer 6" Sprunger model that I recently got up and running, and "thought" I had it setup/calibrated right.

I am face jointing poplar to glue up for bed legs. The pieces go throught great, w/ no snipe to be seen or felt. The problem is when I put the 2 freshly jointed faces together, they rock back and forth around the center. If I force one end together, I get a 1/8" gap at the other end.

I tried pushing a little harder in the center, to create a slight "cup" in the center, no luck. I tried resetting my knives, w/ the Jointer Pal, no luck.

Please help. Any tips or fixes are GREATLY appreciated. I am desperate and frustrated. Leaving the shop for the night.
-Linc

[Todd Burch]

Your knives are too low, or, your outfeed table is too high. Or, perhaps you are putting too much pressure on the intial feed section or the last feed section.

Todd.

[Mike Evertsen]

Please help a woodworker who is about to go NUTS. I am using my jointer 6" Sprunger model that I recently got up and running, and "thought" I had it setup/calibrated right.

I am face jointing poplar to glue up for bed legs. The pieces go throught great, w/ no snipe to be seen or felt. The problem is when I put the 2 freshly jointed faces together, they rock back and forth around the center. If I force one end together, I get a 1/8" gap at the other end.

I tried pushing a little harder in the center, to create a slight "cup" in the center, no luck. I tried resetting my knives, w/ the Jointer Pal, no luck.

Please help. Any tips or fixes are GREATLY appreciated. I am desperate and frustrated. Leaving the shop for the night.
-Linc


your just down the road from me,,if your out this way stop in I'm on 14 just before onys tree farm and about a mile before GC mill ,,,,,,my sign is out front,,,,,

[Philip Berman]

This may or may not be an issue here, but I spent the better part of a YEAR producing less-than-perfect faces 'cause I presumed that by using the "Jointer Pal", the knives were set correctly, and problem I was having was due to "operator error". I had re-set the knives MULTIPLE times, and still no improvement, further convincing me that I was screwing up. Then I started to suspect it was the machine itself (JET 6"), but a chat with the Jet customer service people convinced me to re-set my knives using nothing more than a straight-edge. Lo and behold, I'm suddenly producing perfectly flat faces, edges that are a perfect 90 degrees to the face, and life is good again. Don't know what the problem was with the Jointer Pal, but I'm over having to have a "thingy" to help me set the knives, and doubt I'd try to use it again.

[Kent Cori]

Lincoln,

I had the same problem briefly with my jointer and, for me, the cause was that I had the outfeed table at exactly the same height as the tops of the knives. Then I read a tip on one of the forums that recommended dropping the outfeed table about 0.003". I used the straight edge method with a feeler gauge under it and reset the table. The results have been outstanding and the high point totally eliminated. It only takes a couple of minutes to do so give it a try.

[Roger Myers]

Regarding setting the knife height with respect to the outfeed table... I also think this is your most probable cause. The method I was taught is also very simple. Lay a short straightedge on the outfeed table projecting over the cutter head. When you rotate the cutterhead in its normal direction, it should just barely touch the straightedge, in effect picking it up and dragging it (toward the infeed table) about a 1/4" or so....do this on the back edge of the table, then on the fromt, and repeat with all the knifes. The "lift and drag" mmovement and measurement is simple and surprisingly accurate... I sometimes use a dial indicator with a magnetic base, but it doesn't improve over the simple method which yields great results.
Regarding technique....important issue here is that the attention should be payed to the contact of the board being jointed with the outfeed table. Once I have enough material past the cutterhead for my push blocks to hold it and move it, I take all pressure and influence away from the infeed table, and just use a hand-over-hand movement on the outfeed table. There can be lots of debate over convex up or concave up - to me it depends on the piece being jointed - in general, I will start with the concave side facing up .... U ...... which means that the board may not actually be cut by the cutterhead for the first few inches, and the same for the trailing edge.

just my 2 cents having been there and shared your frustration.....

Roger

[Jim Becker]

One other comment...assuming the tool is set up properly, it's important to understand that the "pressure" you use on the board should only be enough to keep it on the tables. Do not press hard enough to "flatten" it on the table as you will no longer be shaving off the high spots. There is a "feel" to jointing where you get to know just how to move the board and your body to get the lumber across the knives without distorting the material.

[Phil Phelps]

The "lift and drag" movement and measurement is simple and surprisingly accurate... I sometimes use a dial indicator with a magnetic base, but it doesn't improve over the simple method which yields great results.


Roger[/QUOTE]
Rodger, if you set the one knife with the lift and drag, and take that setting with the dial, would that speed things along, or make it more accurate?

[Don Henthorn Smithville, TX]

I finally found that the best method FOR ME is to lower the outfeed table until I had a couple inches of snipe on the end of the board and then raise the outfeed table ever so slighty until the snipe disappeared.

[Bart Leetch]

Ditto what Don said.

I set my knives with a dial indicator then start lowering the back table till the snipe disappears. Then the jointer works perfectly.

[Roger Myers]

The "lift and drag" movement and measurement is simple and surprisingly accurate... I sometimes use a dial indicator with a magnetic base, but it doesn't improve over the simple method which yields great results.


Roger, if you set the one knife with the lift and drag, and take that setting with the dial, would that speed things along, or make it more accurate?Phil,

I'm sure you could do that also but I haven't tried it...I usually just use the scale and never have a problem...
Roger

[Tony Shaftel]

I'm a hobbyist with about three years experience so I'm certainly no expert, but my opinion is there seems to be more discussion about getting good results with a jointer, relative to its fairly simple purpose, than for just about any other tool. Except the lathe, of course, and lathe use is always crossing over that no-man's land into art...

I use the jointer mainly to smooth the first face of the board. I'll use it to joint the edge in non-critical casees, but If I need a smooth 90 degree edge and need it kept parallel to the other edge, I don't rely on my mastery of the jointer--I just use the tablesaw with my Forrest blade.

There, now it's out in the open. I feel better already. ;-)

Tony

[Jim Becker]

...but If I need a smooth 90 degree edge and need it kept parallel to the other edge, I don't rely on my mastery of the jointer--I just use the tablesaw with my Forrest blade.

That's certainly one way to do it, but unless you have your TS perfectly in alignment and use a gazzillion hold-downs and featherboards, it is very difficult to truely get a straight edge on a saw. Jointer technique can be tricky at first, but one one gets the feel of it, it works each and every time to give you a perfectly flat face and straight edge perpendicular to the aforementioned flat face. (It took me several projects before I got it right)

[Renardo Subrosa]

Hi there,

I learned to set the jointer knives and table height by the following method many, many long years ago. Take a nice block of wood such as maple, maybe 3/4" x 1" x a foot long or so. Hand planing makes a nice edge for this purpose. Place it on the outfeed table, smooth side down, so that one end is just nicked as the knife passes around. Mark the place on the wood block where the outfeed table ends. Rotate the cutter head until the knife moves the block of wood and mark where the end of the outfeed table is now. The table is set right when it barely moves the block but it should move some, say 1/16" perhaps. Then put the wood block on the other end of the knife and get it set nice and even all the way across using the same method. Then set the second and third knife the same way so the block moves the same for all three knives, no matter where it's placed across the table. Now, try testing it by jointing one edge of a piece of scrap. Eyeball this carefully and if the edge is not straight, move the outfeed table up or down until it is and also so there is no sniping. Actually, on a properly set jointer, there will always be an infinitesimal little bit of sniping but it should be virtually imperceptable. I think you just you raised the outfeed table a whisker too much.

Cheers,
Reny

[Steve Inniss]

What Kent said - worked for me for the same problem. -Steve

[Jeff Pilcher]

Is there an advantage to using a jointer over a thickness planer for this type of work?

[Jim Becker]

Is there an advantage to using a jointer over a thickness planer for this type of work?
Excellent question.

If you don't joint one face flat and an ajoining face perpendicular to that original face, you cannot get a square component when you use the thickness planer to do the other two sides. Planers will only make two opposing faces parallel, but will not insure that the other two faces make a square...you would end up essentially with a parallelogram or a trapezoid, depending on how those other faces are oriented to their ajoining surfaces.

[Jeff Pilcher]

Thanks for the quick response Jim.

From Lincoln's original post it sounded as if he was trying to get flat faces for face gluing to create a post.

The reason for my question is that I will be doing exactly that very soon. I have been saving my milk money for years so I could buy a thickness planer thinking it was the only way to get flat boards (I recently got the Dewalt 734).

Now, after reading this thread, I am wondering if a thickness planer might not give a truly flat face. The engineer in me is thinking that the feed rollers might distort the shape of the board during planing and it might spring back to a non-flat state after it leaves the planer.

Are people using a jointer to dress the face of a board because ...
It is the best choice to achieve the desired result ... or ... that is the tool they have?

[Jim Becker]

Jeff, in the end, you'll want both a jointer and a thicknesser...they do different things. In the short run, many folks like having the planer in their shop and use other methods to deal with making edges straight and perpendicular to the face, including hand planes, a router table setup with a split fence, etc. Using a sled and light cuts, you can use the planer to "flatten" boards that are reasonably workable. The combination allows you to compensate for the roller pressure effect you mention. (There is another relatively current thread here at SMC that discusses this)


Are people using a jointer to dress the face of a board because ...
It is the best choice to achieve the desired result ... or ... that is the tool they have?
Flattening the face of a board is one of the essential uses of a jointer. You're really not "dressing" it per se, but making it flat. It is likely that same face will also see the planer knives after you process the other side in the planer to make the faces parallel as it's always a good practice to take about the same amount of material off both sides. And then you start with the other tools that finalize the "finish" on the wood surface...


Now, after reading this thread, I am wondering if a thickness planer might not give a truly flat face.
The planer can only make two opposite surfaces parallel. If the "bottom" (guide) surface that rides on the planer bed isn't flat...is twisted, cupped, bowed, etc...the surface you cut on the top will essentially mirror that when it comes out the other side. If the board is "almost on", careful technique will result in a "pretty flat" board. For truly wonderful fitting joinery, the jointer (or hand-techniques that do the same thing) will make for a happy craftsman. It's really eye opening sometimes!<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Ted Shrader]

Jeff -

The jointer will make a flat face (or edge). The reference for flattening a face is the table of the jointer. The knives are in the same plane. For squaring an edge, the reference is the flat face (now against the fence). Assuming the fence is perpendicular to the table, anyway.

A planer, on the other hand uses as its reference, the opposite face of the board that it is cutting. The face that rides against the planer table. The output of the planer is two parallel faces. If you start with rough wood and at the planer, the faces may not necessarily be flat, but they are parallel to each other. That is the reason for starting at the jointer. - to flatten a face before thicknessing the wood.

Ted

[Ted Shrader]

Interesting aside - This thread was started July 16, 2003 and was resurrected by a new member with a question. Isn't it great to have such an easily workable and accessible forum format? Thanks Keith, Aaron, Jackie, et al!

Jeff -

Like Jim says, you will want both a jointer and a planer. They are a complementary pair. Think of the planer as a thicknesser/dresser and the jointer as the straightener.

Regards,
Ted

[Renardo Subrosa]

Interesting aside - This thread was started July 16, 2003 and was resurrected by a new member with a question. Isn't it great to have such an easily workable and accessible forum format? Thanks Keith, Aaron, Jackie, et al!
...
Regards,
Ted

Hi Ted,

Not meaning to be argumentative but when I responded to an old thread, it wasn't obvious to me that it WAS an old thread. I guess with a bit more experience in this SMC board by vBulletin I will find it easy but the fact that I missed that likely means others find it less than obvious too. But I do genetally like what I see here at SMC.

Best to all,
Reny

[Jeff Pilcher]

This is really interesting, thanks everyone for the responses. I did not realize this thread was that old either.

I have definitely learned something in this thread. I would never have thought to use the jointer to flatten the face of a board. Perhaps because I only have a 4" jointer (Shopsmith assessory) and I consider it too narrow to be of much use for face jointing. I have used the jointer to square edges of boards for making panels many times. I also never considered that a thickness planer would not flatten a board. Most of my projects start out with store bought dimensional lumber and I do not recall having used boards that were noticably cupped (but I never thought to check too carefully either). I guess I'll be more aware of this now.

Thanks everyone. I can feel my level of craftsmanship improving already.

[Bart Leetch]

[QUOTE=Jeff Pilcher]This is really interesting, thanks everyone for the responses.
I would never have thought to use the jointer to flatten the face of a board.

Jeff even with a 4" jointer you could face joint material for face frames for cabinets.

This would allow you to use rough planed material. You can set you jointer to take 1/32" off & edge joint 1 edge then face joint 1 side Then go to your table-saw & rip the un-jointed edge to with in 1/32" & with the jointed edge down rip the un jointed side to with in 1/32" & then go back to the jointer & edge & face joint the side & edge you just ripped. This takes a little time to do but if your like me you have more time than money.

I do have a portable planer so I finish the last side on the planer.

[Jim Becker]

You can set you jointer to take 1/32" off & edge joint 1 edge then face joint 1 side...Best to face joint (the widest surface) first so that when you do your edge, you have a surface that is easy to keep against the fence and so that the edge is truly perpendicular to the flattened face.

[Jeff Pilcher]

OK, here is what I have determined from the information so far.

1. Rough saw to over desired width (maybe 1/4" oversize).
2. Joint FACE #1
3. Joint EDGE #1 (with FACE #1 against the jointer fence).
4. Saw width to just over size (maybe 1/32" oversize).
5. Joint EDGE #2 until final width is achieved (with FACE #1 against the jointer fence).
6. Thickness plane FACE #2 to achieve desired thickness.

I do have both a jointer and a portable thickness planer, so I think I can get this done.

Again, I would never have thought this was necessary. I would have blindly run the boards through the thickness planer on both sides until I got the thicknness I wanted. Then, I would have gone to the jointer to square up the edges.

These are exactly the kind of tips I have been needing to bring my work to the next level.

Thanks again.

[Jim Becker]

You got it, Jeff!!

[Norman Hitt]

OK, here is what I have determined from the information so far.

1. Rough saw to over desired width (maybe 1/4" oversize).
2. Joint FACE #1
3. Joint EDGE #1 (with FACE #1 against the jointer fence).
4. Saw width to just over size (maybe 1/32" oversize).
5. Joint EDGE #2 until final width is achieved (with FACE #1 against the jointer fence).
6. Thickness plane FACE #2 to achieve desired thickness.

I do have both a jointer and a portable thickness planer, so I think I can get this done.

Again, I would never have thought this was necessary. I would have blindly run the boards through the thickness planer on both sides until I got the thicknness I wanted. Then, I would have gone to the jointer to square up the edges.

These are exactly the kind of tips I have been needing to bring my work to the next level.

Thanks again.


Well, here comes "Ole Norm" having to Disagree a little. My problem is with step #5.

My problem, is that after 1 or more passes over the jointer with edge 2, most likely, edge 2 will No Longer be parallel to edge # 1, as "Each trip" over the jointer will most likely "Taper" the board somewhat.

This can be correctly accomplished, however, by standing 1 or more of these identical pieces with edge #1 down on the "PLANER" bed, (Not jointer), and then make passes until desired thickness/width is achieved by planing off the top of edge #2, and the two edges WILL then be parallel and of uniform thickness throughout it's length. (Note:) This procedure would Not be for Wide boards for glueup, but for narrow finish pieces like Face Frame pieces, Rails/stiles, etc.

Check me out Jim, & see if I stated this right & didn't get it twisted around, as some of this "Crud Medicine" has me kinda "Fuzzy" today..

[Chris DiCiaccio]

1-Joint face #1
2-Thickness Plane face #2
3-Now we can put either face against the jointer fence to joint edge #1. My point is that we have a choice of which face goes against the fence to favor wood grain to prevent tear-out on #1 edge.
4-Use table saw to get width
5-Back to jointer for 2nd edge, with again, two choices of faces for the fence to favor wood grain and avoid tear-out.

Any comments welcome, just trying to learn.

[Norman Hitt]

1-Joint face #1
2-Thickness Plane face #2
3-Now we can put either face against the jointer fence to joint edge #1. My point is that we have a choice of which face goes against the fence to favor wood grain to prevent tear-out on #1 edge.
4-Use table saw to get width
5-Back to jointer for 2nd edge, with again, two choices of faces for the fence to favor wood grain and avoid tear-out.

Any comments welcome, just trying to learn.

That looks good to me, Chris, with all the right options. I've used this method more often than the Joint one face, then straighten one one edge method, (whether using jointer or saw to straighten that edge). It just depends on the situation, for me.

[Jim Becker]

Norm, that last jointer pass is oh-so-very-thin and only to clean up the saw marks on the edge. There is little chance of the two edges going out of parallel if proper jointer technique is observed. Remember, we're talking one 1/32" pass here! Now, if you had a bunch of these to finalize, the planer is a great way to finish that last edge by ganging them up and running them all through at the same time...as long as you have a snipe-free planer or leave extra length...

[Ted Shrader]

Chris -

That is the way I do it. For exactly those reasons. You have the flexibilty to joint the edges either way to avoid tearout.

One other thought. If the table saw is set up correctly and there is a good blade in it, that last pass on the jointer is not required.

Ted

[Norman Hitt]

Norm, that last jointer pass is oh-so-very-thin and only to clean up the saw marks on the edge. There is little chance of the two edges going out of parallel if proper jointer technique is observed. Remember, we're talking one 1/32" pass here! Now, if you had a bunch of these to finalize, the planer is a great way to finish that last edge by ganging them up and running them all through at the same time...as long as you have a snipe-free planer or leave extra length...

I agree on 1 "Thin Pass", but in some of the posts, as much as 1/4" was mentioned to be removed, and that's why I didn't think the procedure would work well, BUT, as I said, I'm a little "fuzzy" today and could have missed something.