Handplane courage

[Mark Rainey]

OK, Neanders, I admit, I used sand paper. I am making a dining room table and handplaned the top. Leveled with the jack, smoothed with a Clifton #3 Blade so gently sharpened to reduce edges...gossamer shavings, looking great. Used a scraper. I put a raking light on the top and I saw plane tracks. I probable shouldn't have done that, but I am putting on a glossy finish and I don't want any "defects". I probably have a lot to learn about using a fine smoother. BUT my question is this...has anyone posted a completed project over the past few years in the woodworking projects sub-forum using only handplanes ( and scrapers )? If so please reference it. Or when the project is close to complete do we get some anxiety and resort to sandpaper?

[Patrick McCarthy]

i recall that Brian Holcombe used to post some all handplaned projects; that might be a good place to start looking. Of course, anything Brian does is worth looking at.

[Mel Fulks]

Even old pre -sand paper stuff was sanded with horse-tail reed which has grit that ranges from 180 to 220. And long before “sand paper”
guys were putting glue on paper and sprinkling sand on it. Read that when I was a kid, then I made some “multi-grit”….useful and easy
to make !

[Bill Carey]

OK, Neanders, I admit, I used sand paper............... I put a raking light on the top and I saw plane tracks. ...................

Sack cloth and ashes for you!! LOL, nothing wrong with sanding in my book, Mark. (I'm sure other opinions will be expressed) Smaller pieces get hand planed, then scraped and then sanded with an ROS, and finally sanded with the grain by hand to remove the swirlies. Larger pieces get scraped (sometimes) then sanded. I just don't have the stamina anymore to hand plane large pieces, like table tops. A more discerning eye might see a difference, but I like the finish I get on most of the things I make. And so do the folks who have my work. 10 to 1 this devolves into how to put a camber on a plane irons.

[Robert Hazelwood]

It's pretty difficult to get a large surface like that perfect enough to apply a high gloss finish.

If you learn to set the cap iron and sharpen well, you can get a very smooth tearout-free surface without needing to scrape. For best results, you also need to get it flat enough that you can take a series of very thin shavings with a smoother that are full-length from one end of the table to the other, with no low spots that the plane skips, and with each pass overlapping with the previous. Anywhere the blade comes out of the cut will leave a visible mark once you start getting finish on.

This can be frustrating to achieve on something wider, especially if there is any flexing of the piece going on. Even when I manage that, I still see some little scallops once I build up the gloss enough. It isn't really plane tracks, but more like the camber of the blade (which is tiny on a smoother) showing where the passes overlap. It's not apparent from all angles but in the right light I could see them.

If I use a thinner finish like a light french polish, OSMO, or danish oil, the little scallops aren't noticeable, and I do think the result is a little "livelier" than a sanded surface. Especially with an oil finish, it can increase the amount of blotching (or figure, depending on how you look at it) versus sanding to a higher grit like 400.

So on those kinds of surfaces I would hand plane until very flat, no tearout, but not go all the way to perfection. Then get out my half-sheet sander and go from 150 up to whatever grit. This gives me a flat surface that is very even in terms of taking finish.

Flatness is very important for the high gloss finish to look good, and hand planes will get you there if you don't have a wide belt sander. I've seen some slab tables where they just went to town on a rough milled slab with a ROS, and with a high gloss finish you can see every dip and wave, with all the knotty or crotchy areas standing proud.

[chris carter]

I never really use sandpaper on furniture pieces. Just a smoother and sometimes a scraper if there’s a problem area. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with sandpaper – I just don’t want to go through the effort. Can you occasionally see a planing mark if you look really carefully? That black end table if you look really carefully you can find a diagonal plane mark that I didn’t fully get rid of with the smoother on the top. But here’s the thing, once you start using the piece, nobody can see any of that stuff. I made these pieces and when I finished them I had complaints about every single one – motivation for improving. But after a few months I can’t really remember where the flaws are. I’m not making museum-quality pieces like some people in this forum, nor am I even going to try! I suppose if I were trying to do that, it would drive me nuts.

That said, sometimes with pieces with a lot of curl I can get annoyed trying to get the finish even without having to put on so many coats of finish, so I keep telling myself I should sand the whole thing to 220 before putting on finish. But then I forget…..

I wouldn’t worry about a stray plane track that is so subtle you need a raking light to see it. That’s how you prove to people you made it by hand! If you make it too perfect, then people think you made it in one afternoon with fancy power tools. I make a lot of gifts for family members and I kind of feel like I need to intentionally make sure there’s a clear defect so everyone knows how hard I sweated with hand tools to make it.
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[Joe A Faulkner]

Mark, I am just now wrapping up a project where I set out to go sand paper free. Unlike you, I finished the piece with a satin finish; when it was done and I turned on the overhead light at night and saw all of the tool marks, I decided nope, not gonna live with that. I had prefinished the parts and done a dry fit. I won’t say how long the piece sat in my shop before I finally got around to resuming work. I Sanded out the finish and the tool marks on all show sides and refinished. I will try the no sand paper method again some time in the future. I hate the dust and the noise, but for what it is worth, you are not alone. Been there done that or been there doing that.

[Mark Rainey]

i recall that Brian Holcombe used to post some all handplaned projects; that might be a good place to start looking. Of course, anything Brian does is worth looking at.

I agree Patrick. If Brian can't do it no one can.

[Mark Rainey]

Sack cloth and ashes for you!! LOL, nothing wrong with sanding in my book, Mark. (I'm sure other opinions will be expressed) Smaller pieces get hand planed, then scraped and then sanded with an ROS, and finally sanded with the grain by hand to remove the swirlies. Larger pieces get scraped (sometimes) then sanded. I just don't have the stamina anymore to hand plane large pieces, like table tops. A more discerning eye might see a difference, but I like the finish I get on most of the things I make. And so do the folks who have my work. 10 to 1 this devolves into how to put a camber on a plane irons.

Bill, I am glad to hear you are in the same boat. And like you, heavy handplaning can be physically tough - many years ago I enjoyed planing for a couple hours with soaking t shirt and shavings up to my ankles. Those days are gone.

[Mark Rainey]

It's pretty difficult to get a large surface like that perfect enough to apply a high gloss finish.

If you learn to set the cap iron and sharpen well, you can get a very smooth tearout-free surface without needing to scrape. For best results, you also need to get it flat enough that you can take a series of very thin shavings with a smoother that are full-length from one end of the table to the other, with no low spots that the plane skips, and with each pass overlapping with the previous. Anywhere the blade comes out of the cut will leave a visible mark once you start getting finish on.

This can be frustrating to achieve on something wider, especially if there is any flexing of the piece going on. Even when I manage that, I still see some little scallops once I build up the gloss enough. It isn't really plane tracks, but more like the camber of the blade (which is tiny on a smoother) showing where the passes overlap. It's not apparent from all angles but in the right light I could see them.

If I use a thinner finish like a light french polish, OSMO, or danish oil, the little scallops aren't noticeable, and I do think the result is a little "livelier" than a sanded surface. Especially with an oil finish, it can increase the amount of blotching (or figure, depending on how you look at it) versus sanding to a higher grit like 400.

So on those kinds of surfaces I would hand plane until very flat, no tearout, but not go all the way to perfection. Then get out my half-sheet sander and go from 150 up to whatever grit. This gives me a flat surface that is very even in terms of taking finish.

Flatness is very important for the high gloss finish to look good, and hand planes will get you there if you don't have a wide belt sander. I've seen some slab tables where they just went to town on a rough milled slab with a ROS, and with a high gloss finish you can see every dip and wave, with all the knotty or crotchy areas standing proud.


Robert, thanks for your detailed and informative response. And you do point out the value of using planes to get a flat surface, even if one decides to finish with sandpaper.

[Mark Rainey]

I never really use sandpaper on furniture pieces. Just a smoother and sometimes a scraper if there’s a problem area. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with sandpaper – I just don’t want to go through the effort. Can you occasionally see a planing mark if you look really carefully? That black end table if you look really carefully you can find a diagonal plane mark that I didn’t fully get rid of with the smoother on the top. But here’s the thing, once you start using the piece, nobody can see any of that stuff. I made these pieces and when I finished them I had complaints about every single one – motivation for improving. But after a few months I can’t really remember where the flaws are. I’m not making museum-quality pieces like some people in this forum, nor am I even going to try! I suppose if I were trying to do that, it would drive me nuts.

That said, sometimes with pieces with a lot of curl I can get annoyed trying to get the finish even without having to put on so many coats of finish, so I keep telling myself I should sand the whole thing to 220 before putting on finish. But then I forget…..

I wouldn’t worry about a stray plane track that is so subtle you need a raking light to see it. That’s how you prove to people you made it by hand! If you make it too perfect, then people think you made it in one afternoon with fancy power tools. I make a lot of gifts for family members and I kind of feel like I need to intentionally make sure there’s a clear defect so everyone knows how hard I sweated with hand tools to make it.
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Chris, thanks for your insight and pics of your beautiful pieces. I do agree that we can be a bit obsessive with finishing and assumed defects are usually not noticed by others. Some evidence of handwork can be desirable and even enhance the piece.

[Mark Rainey]

Mark, I am just now wrapping up a project where I set out to go sand paper free. Unlike you, I finished the piece with a satin finish; when it was done and I turned on the overhead light at night and saw all of the tool marks, I decided nope, not gonna live with that. I had prefinished the parts and done a dry fit. I won’t say how long the piece sat in my shop before I finally got around to resuming work. I Sanded out the finish and the tool marks on all show sides and refinished. I will try the no sand paper method again some time in the future. I hate the dust and the noise, but for what it is worth, you are not alone. Been there done that or been there doing that.

Joe, thanks for sharing your experience and commiserating with me.

[Mark Rainey]

Even old pre -sand paper stuff was sanded with horse-tail reed which has grit that ranges from 180 to 220. And long before “sand paper”
guys were putting glue on paper and sprinkling sand on it. Read that when I was a kid, then I made some “multi-grit”….useful and easy
to make !

interesting Mel, thanks!

[Scott Winners]

I tuned into a live webcast by Chris Scwarz a few months ago, dunno how many he has done. One of the "questions from a viewer" was how do I get a table top smooth enough for a clear film finish, both Chris and Megan Fitz said "sandpaper" more or less in unison.

I have never been happy with the look of a freshly dried clear film without having used sandpaper on the wood. I am sure there are folks that can do it, besides Brian possibly Edwin Santos and maybe Derek Cohen that I know of. I wonder if Rob Lee uses sandpaper. He has more or less unlimited access to NASA grade sharp plane irons.

[William Fretwell]

A sharp plane blade is the best finish you can obtain on wood. If you are adding 7 coats of varnish then sanding will be filled by the varnish and look fine. If you are using an oil finish sanding will look worse.
Curving the edge of a plane blade will reduce track marks.
If you sand, wipe the wood with a moist cloth to raise the grain of the wood that may swell, let it dry then sand lightly.
Vacuum the surface, wipe with a cloth moistened with spirits to remove more dust then varnish.

The more that growth rings differ in hardness the more sanding will enhance that difference, creating ridges. A plane will treat the rings the same.

[Mark Rainey]

I tuned into a live webcast by Chris Scwarz a few months ago, dunno how many he has done. One of the "questions from a viewer" was how do I get a table top smooth enough for a clear film finish, both Chris and Megan Fitz said "sandpaper" more or less in unison.

I have never been happy with the look of a freshly dried clear film without having used sandpaper on the wood. I am sure there are folks that can do it, besides Brian possibly Edwin Santos and maybe Derek Cohen that I know of. I wonder if Rob Lee uses sandpaper. He has more or less unlimited access to NASA grade sharp plane irons.

Good input Scott, thanks!

[Mel Fulks]

Horsetail is easy to grow, but should be in containers since it spreads by rhizomes that stake out lots of territory before starting to fill in.

[Scott Winners]

A sharp plane blade is the best finish you can obtain on wood. If you are adding 7 coats of varnish then sanding will be filled by the varnish and look fine. If you are using an oil finish sanding will look worse.
Curving the edge of a plane blade will reduce track marks.
If you sand, wipe the wood with a moist cloth to raise the grain of the wood that may swell, let it dry then sand lightly.
Vacuum the surface, wipe with a cloth moistened with spirits to remove more dust then varnish.

The more that growth rings differ in hardness the more sanding will enhance that difference, creating ridges. A plane will treat the rings the same.

I agree with everything William has contributed.

When possible, I apply finish straight off the tool. I only go up to 4000 grit (diamond) and hardly ever strop, but off the plane if I sand at 220 grit (homestore) the sand paper roughens the surface. Except in hardwood endgrain or rising grain.

My smoother is honed straight accross, with just a bit of curve at each corner with radius maybe 2-3 x the thickness of the shavings I will take.

After sanding I use a fairly wet wipe of isopropyl alcohol to float dust out of pores and raise grain. I like steel wool- gently- to cut off the raised grain bits once the alcohol dries, but leaving wee bits of steel on the surface can complicate finishing.

Doug Fir is a wood I use a lot of where the spring growth (dark rings) is much harder than the summer growth, light rings. William is exactly right, sanding Doug Fir make furrows in the light wood and has jack doodle effect on the dark rings. I will occasionally use a scraper on reversing grain in Doug Fir, but it is pointless to sand DF. So my Doug Fir pieces have a little tearout here and there, but the surface cross section doesn't look like the Golden Gate bridge.

At the end of the day you couldn't push a plane iron wider than your table top even if you could find it to buy.

I did see a floor standing sander at a door building shop. It could only handle stock up to maybe 40" wide, one meter, and I have heard of wider ones, but that would be a five figure purchase.

I sure hope Rob Lee chimes in on this one. I suspect that if I owned Lee Valley and had a team of talented engineers at my beck and call, designed and manufactured my own sharpening guides, had a flock of interns to use those guides to sharpen my irons all summer, I think I would still have to use sandpaper here and there on table tops.

[Charles Guest]

Well of course all you have to do is just do it -- plane it up, slap a few coats of Watco on it and declare to the world that all the flaws are "evidence of hand tool craftsmanship," "how the old guys did it," etc., etc. You've heard it all by now, and it's an easy trap to fall into. "I haven't scraped or used abrasives since 1974" and all that rot. Then, somebody actually knowledgeable can come in behind all of that strutting and fretting with a pad of Post It notes and stick one on every flaw that would show up like a huge pimple in the middle of kid's forehead on prom night under a real finish, on a real article of woodworking, not some monument to rectilinearity, American Country, Shaker, or the usual beginner-to-bare-intermediate planing project. There are a few reasons you won't see a Georgian carved kidney-shaped desk, or a Louis XV commode, in the pages of "Fine" Woodworking. You can count on a pretty steady diet of Shaker and Arts & Crafts stuff though. There's a difference between frying hamburgers for the summer at the pool snack bar and the cuisine of Alain Ducasse.

Every single culture that has ever produced an article of woodworking of merit has used some kind of abrasive on wood. To suggest otherwise is just willful ignorance, picking and choosing of sources, manipulating a narrative, and reading between lines to fit one's delusions.

Is there evidence of hand tools on woodwork made with hand tools? Of course there is. But it's not because the idea of using an abrasive was the equivalent of pooping in the punch bowl as it's often presented today - usually in the context of "needing" another hand plane, honing system, etc. all in the name of a purity that never existed in the first place.

Anybody on this board could do a quick search and post pictures of furniture from all over the world with components for which it would be virtually impossible to hand plane to a finished surface -undulating small drawers on a Georgian secretary come immediately to mind. God knows there are thousands of other examples. The only way to remain a purist is simply to never build anything that your No. 4 won't fit on or into. Adjusting your taste to your worldview about hand planing isn't craftsmanship. It's eschewing woodworking that you could never in a million years pull off yourself, and the sign of a total ignoramus. Maybe you'll never build something that complicated, or your legitimate personal tastes don't run that way, but thumbing your nose at it all just confirms insularity.

Rainey please don't stop doing the beautiful work that you do, using appropriate finishes for the style, because you somehow feel compelled to not use sandpaper. Brick dust, cattail rush, ground glass, river sand, beach sand, desert sand, and probably many other substances lost to history have been employed on furniture through the ages.

[Jerome Andrieux]

I don’t use sand paper because I don’t like glossy finishes.
That said, I built a desk and a coffee table out of pear that I blackened using iron acetate. Works great but definitely reveals all the defects. I resorted to wax over varnish to ‘dull’ the reflection differences.

Metal planes leave all kinds of traces of wood: tear out, tracks, not-quite-sharp-enough dull tracks, shiny wax residues, metal burnishing if you push too hard and eventually some black marks if iron meets sweat. I spend some time “burnishing” the surface with a good handful of heavy shavings to even out what can be.

Perfect finish requires tool and operator perfection but doesn’t mean the piece actually looks great.

[Mark Rainey]

Well of course all you have to do is just do it -- plane it up, slap a few coats of Watco on it and declare to the world that all the flaws are "evidence of hand tool craftsmanship," "how the old guys did it," etc., etc. You've heard it all by now, and it's an easy trap to fall into. "I haven't scraped or used abrasives since 1974" and all that rot. Then, somebody actually knowledgeable can come in behind all of that strutting and fretting with a pad of Post It notes and stick one on every flaw that would show up like a huge pimple in the middle of kid's forehead on prom night under a real finish, on a real article of woodworking, not some monument to rectilinearity, American Country, Shaker, or the usual beginner-to-bare-intermediate planing project. There are a few reasons you won't see a Georgian carved kidney-shaped desk, or a Louis XV commode, in the pages of "Fine" Woodworking. You can count on a pretty steady diet of Shaker and Arts & Crafts stuff though. There's a difference between frying hamburgers for the summer at the pool snack bar and the cuisine of Alain Ducasse.

Every single culture that has ever produced an article of woodworking of merit has used some kind of abrasive on wood. To suggest otherwise is just willful ignorance, picking and choosing of sources, manipulating a narrative, and reading between lines to fit one's delusions.

Is there evidence of hand tools on woodwork made with hand tools? Of course there is. But it's not because the idea of using an abrasive was the equivalent of pooping in the punch bowl as it's often presented today - usually in the context of "needing" another hand plane, honing system, etc. all in the name of a purity that never existed in the first place.

Anybody on this board could do a quick search and post pictures of furniture from all over the world with components for which it would be virtually impossible to hand plane to a finished surface -undulating small drawers on a Georgian secretary come immediately to mind. God knows there are thousands of other examples. The only way to remain a purist is simply to never build anything that your No. 4 won't fit on or into. Adjusting your taste to your worldview about hand planing isn't craftsmanship. It's eschewing woodworking that you could never in a million years pull off yourself, and the sign of a total ignoramus. Maybe you'll never build something that complicated, or your legitimate personal tastes don't run that way, but thumbing your nose at it all just confirms insularity.

Rainey please don't stop doing the beautiful work that you do, using appropriate finishes for the style, because you somehow feel compelled to not use sandpaper. Brick dust, cattail rush, ground glass, river sand, beach sand, desert sand, and probably many other substances lost to history have been employed on furniture through the ages.

Charles, thank you for your expert opinion and enjoyable and humorous essay on this topic. I am so glad you contribute to this forum.

[Edward Weber]

I think I'm on the same page as Charles, it's mostly all nonsense.
Throughout history, anything that was rough to the touch, poked or pricked your finger has been used to smooth wood. Rocks, seashells, sand, bark, fish and animal skin, the list is endless.
Anyone can do a quick search and find that the Chinese were using some form of sandpaper in the 13th century and probably long before that.
A "purist" is the person that always tells you how you should do something but never seems to share their own work, makes you wonder.
Being a woodworker, when I see a piece, I look at the end result and then work backwards trying to figure out how it was built. Many times it's impossible to tell what joints were used or how a piece was milled. It's no different with the finish, if there's an area that requires some type of abrasive in lieu of a blade, it's not a problem. In the end, you may be the only one who knows anyway.
I think it says something about you and your work ethics that this topic concerned you enough to ask the forum, keep up the good work.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Sandpaper certainly has its uses and I make no pretense of avoiding it when it is necessary. On the Queen Anne handkerchief table I recently posted made with highly figured maple there was no way I could prep the cabriole legs for finishing without abrasives. The constantly reversing grain direction made my scraper chatter and gouge out the softer face grain even when applied diagonally. My spokeshaves caused tearout on the grain which reversed every 1/2". Sandpaper and my Auriou 14 grain rasp were my saviors. The top of the table was hand planed and then sanded so that dye and finish would absorb as evenly as possible.

[Mark Rainey]

Ed, thanks for your input. Interesting that the Chinese used sandpaper in the 13th century. Some of their work just boggles the mind.

[Mark Rainey]

Sandpaper certainly has its uses and I make no pretense of avoiding it when it is necessary. On the Queen Anne handkerchief table I recently posted made with highly figured maple there was no way I could prep the cabriole legs for finishing without abrasives. The constantly reversing grain direction made my scraper chatter and gouge out the softer face grain even when applied diagonally. My spokeshaves caused tearout on the grain which reversed every 1/2". Sandpaper and my Auriou 14 grain rasp were my saviors. The top of the table was hand planed and then sanded so that dye and finish would absorb as evenly as possible.

Once again Dave, that table is a masterpiece.

[Derek Cohen]

I use three finishing methods. Hand planing, scraping with a card/cabinet scraper, and sanding with a ROS or hand sander. It really is horses for courses - some woods are better served with one or the other.

The key to planing without tracks is, as you all know, to use a cambered blade. Plane with overlapping runs.

Note, one cannot mix-and-match methods. Each will leave a different surface, and this will be seen. So, if you start to sand, finish all by sanding. If you scrape, finish all with a scraper.

https://i.postimg.cc/cJ0vfbRw/Scraping-html-m71472171-zpsyhe3wigb.jpg


Double iron planing helps ignore grain direction.

https://i.postimg.cc/qRPPq9sk/1.jpg


Mitred ends best managed with sanding faces, but planing top edges (current project) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/bNr66wQZ/12.jpg
Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

Figure out why you are trying to do this. It is certainly possible to get a trackless surface, but you will improve your chances by working with favorable woods and reading grain. Brian and Derek and many others can certainly do it with more challenges, but there are couple myths you'd be well to be disabused of:

A sanded surface is inferior to a planed surface.
Sanding above 150 or 220 grit is a waste of time.
Handplaning is faster than sanding.
Most people either sand OR hand plane.

I will submit that the easiest way to a flawless finish is to use a handplane for the FLATTENING (at which is certainly excels vs sandpaper). A flat surface is the first, most important thing to any kind of flawless finish - oil or film.
How FAR you take the planing is another matter. For me, it is more work to properly sharpen several planes and go back 20 times with raking light to insure I've removed every track mark. Rather, after flattening and some initial smoothing, I can usually START at 220 with the sanding and remove the track marks on any dining table about as fast as with a hand plane - and with way less stress about creating more or tearing out.
Sanding up to 600 grit will produce just enough dust to provide a clear visual on any remaining track marks, which can be addressed on a spot basis. For an oil finish, I'll sand up to 1000 grit.

For the life of me, I cannot tell a difference between this kind of prepped surface and a strictly planed surface.

A lot of advanced furniture makers do it this hybrid way. While many of us aspire to the level of proficiency of Brian or Derek and Mike Allen and countless others here, it doesn't inherently lead to an more "unicornly" finished product.

I guess all I'm saying is that I may wish to run a marathon, but may achieve the same practical level of fitness with significantly less effort by running a half marathon and biking the rest.

[Mark Rainey]

Figure out why you are trying to do this. It is certainly possible to get a trackless surface, but you will improve your chances by working with favorable woods and reading grain. Brian and Derek and many others can certainly do it with more challenges, but there are couple myths you'd be well to be disabused of:

A sanded surface is inferior to a planed surface.
Sanding above 150 or 220 grit is a waste of time.
Handplaning is faster than sanding.
Most people either sand OR hand plane.

I will submit that the easiest way to a flawless finish is to use a handplane for the FLATTENING (at which is certainly excels vs sandpaper). A flat surface is the first, most important thing to any kind of flawless finish - oil or film.
How FAR you take the planing is another matter. For me, it is more work to properly sharpen several planes and go back 20 times with raking light to insure I've removed every track mark. Rather, after flattening and some initial smoothing, I can usually START at 220 with the sanding and remove the track marks on any dining table about as fast as with a hand plane - and with way less stress about creating more or tearing out.
Sanding up to 600 grit will produce just enough dust to provide a clear visual on any remaining track marks, which can be addressed on a spot basis. For an oil finish, I'll sand up to 1000 grit.

For the life of me, I cannot tell a difference between this kind of prepped surface and a strictly planed surface.

A lot of advanced furniture makers do it this hybrid way. While many of us aspire to the level of proficiency of Brian or Derek and Mike Allen and countless others here, it doesn't inherently lead to an more "unicornly" finished product.

I guess all I'm saying is that I may wish to run a marathon, but may achieve the same practical level of fitness with significantly less effort by running a half marathon and biking the rest.

Thanks for your explanation Prashun. I like your hybrid approach, which seems to be the best option for most of us ( not all ). Your furniture is beautiful and reflects your hard work and talent.

[Joe Bailey]

Mitred ends best managed with sanding faces, but planing top edges (current project) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/bNr66wQZ/12.jpg
Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

Audiophiles everywhere need to know: What brand/model of turntable is going into that base?

[Richard Hart]

462739

I really like this... sorry if I hit you with two messages by mistake.

Rich

[Rob Lee]

(snip). I wonder if Rob Lee uses sandpaper. He has more or less unlimited access to NASA grade sharp plane irons.

Sandpaper for me, unless scraped…..

Cheers,

Rob

[Doug Dawson]

OK, Neanders, I admit, I used sand paper. I am making a dining room table and handplaned the top. Leveled with the jack, smoothed with a Clifton #3 Blade so gently sharpened to reduce edges...gossamer shavings, looking great. Used a scraper. I put a raking light on the top and I saw plane tracks. I probable shouldn't have done that, but I am putting on a glossy finish and I don't want any "defects". I probably have a lot to learn about using a fine smoother. BUT my question is this...has anyone posted a completed project over the past few years in the woodworking projects sub-forum using only handplanes ( and scrapers )? If so please reference it. Or when the project is close to complete do we get some anxiety and resort to sandpaper?What is the point of hiding how we did stuff? Are we not men, or are we machines?

[Warren Mickley]

From my phone.

I stopped using scrapers in 1976 when I realized that the surface was better before using the scraper. In 1978 I made a small box and sanded it with 400 paper. When I realized it was better before sanding, I went back and planed it again. That was the last time I sanded a flat surface.

I use a double iron jack plane with the grain followed by a double iron beech try plane. As Robert mentioned, ending with full length strokes. I use a smooth plane just before gluing or finishing to clean up scuffs and marks. Usually just one pass.

If sanding improves the surface, there is nothing wrong with that, but your planing could be improved.

[Jason Buresh]

If it looks too perfect, it looks machine made

[Rafael Herrera]

If it looks too perfect, it looks machine made

Ron Swanson wouldn't like it. https://youtu.be/H_NfvRX_LP0?t=111

[Mark Rainey]

From my phone.

I stopped using scrapers in 1976 when I realized that the surface was better before using the scraper. In 1978 I made a small box and sanded it with 400 paper. When I realized it was better before sanding, I went back and planed it again. That was the last time I sanded a flat surface.

I use a double iron jack plane with the grain followed by a double iron beech try plane. As Robert mentioned, ending with full length strokes. I use a smooth plane just before gluing or finishing to clean up scuffs and marks. Usually just one pass.

If sanding improves the surface, there is nothing wrong with that, but your planing could be improved.

Thanks for your expertise Warren. I am sure my planing could use some work.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek,

Audiophiles everywhere need to know: What brand/model of turntable is going into that base?

Joe, a way to go before this is done.

I have owned this Thorens TD150 for 35 years. It is 10 years older than that.

New spring suspension, 10mm acrylic arm board, 10mm acrylic base with IsaAcoustic feet, and a modified Rega RB300 arm complete this. I am waiting on a new perspex lid being custom made. I completed all the other mods. Herbie’s mat. Cartridge is either a Dynavector Ruby Karat or Supex Mk V. All these are some decades old!

https://i.postimg.cc/6p0r9kcS/31.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joe Bailey]

She's a beauty, Derek-- thanks for the info.

Believe it or not, my first two guesses were going to be Thorens or Empire.

I just recently recapped the first Sony receiver I bought in '75 -- I'm running it with Polk Audio Monitor 7s and a Dual CS606 turntable.

[Derek Cohen]

Joe, I know the Dual to be a very capable turntable. I am not familiar with the Polk speakers, other than they have a very good reputation.

Going off on a bit of a tangent here, but there is a relevant back story ...

In 2010, I built an entertainment centre based on twin campaign chests (this was before Chris Schwartz began to popularise the style). The idea was to leave space for the hifi, like this ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ItsJustNotCricket_html_m49355832.jpg

But I made the error of showing my wife, Lynndy, what it could look like with added drawer fronts ....

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ItsJustNotCricket_html_m2aef1aee.jpg

At that point she decided that twin chests were better than an entertainment centre, and that was it!

The TV was sited on one, and my hifi system became reduced to CD and DVD. The turntable and other equipment were banished to another family room.

Here you see it with one (of a pair) of Bowers & Wilkins DM 7 (mk 2) speakers. These are now 40 years old!

https://i.postimg.cc/fy46SYN4/Campaign-Chests.jpg


Well, the years went by and the turntable was hardly used. Younger kids and big dogs with swishing tails were not conducive to turntables with expensive cartridges. Then, a couple of months ago, a good friend showed me his new turntable, and how he was delighting in re-discovering his old vinyl collection. This brought back such memories and desires. I decided to do the same.

I had been out of the hifi scene for 30 years. Frankly, I am not interested in what audiophiles do, that is, listen to their systems rather than listen to the music. It is exactly like woodworking. Some purchase all the expensive tools and hang them on the wall, and this makes them feel good (all strength to their elbow). I appreciate and enjoy good tools, but at the end of the day I want to be building. In hifi I want to be listening. So I did a lot of research. It blew me away.

In addition to re-building the Thorens - I discovered that I had good taste all those years ago, and had purchased really good stuff - the next change was to get new speakers. Lynndy hated my B&W coffins, and had nagged me for years to get something smaller. So I did - Kef LS50 Meta speakers on stands. Quite amazing for such small speakers. I plan to add the matching KC62 subwoofer in the near future. Their imaging is extraordinary.

Now I needed to move the equipment off the cabinet. Time to add a matching stand. Again Jarrah ...

https://i.postimg.cc/DzVBTs59/1.jpg

New to me (but not to others) is streaming. I purchased a Cambridge Audio CXN (v2) streamer/DAC, have a subscription to Tidal (master disk recordings) and began ripping all my old CDs to FLAC files, which is stored on an old MacBook Pro. The amplifier is a 1990 Harman Kardon HK6500 (high current and high power). Still blows away modern stuff :) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/mDBjcsvV/2.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/bvQLNJBs/3.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/HnLt2tsy/5.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/vBhzfKMy/4.jpg

But it started with the turntable and its re-build. Here is the rear (minus the base and top plate) ..

https://i.postimg.cc/DZLNG4w4/18.jpg

Still tuning the suspension ...

https://i.postimg.cc/sgx0cN2r/23.jpg

The top plate was sanded back to aluminium and then clear coated ...

https://i.postimg.cc/0yxG1kYD/30.jpg

This is definitely a thread/post for audiophiles, but it has been a fun project in the middle of a very cold winter here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[chris carter]

But Derek, the REAL question is this: do you SAND or HANDPLANE your vinyl???

I jest of course. I can talk about audio all day long. My entire adult life I’ve been self-employed as a producer/mixer. I’m a voting member of the Grammys and also serve on the Grammy Producer’s and Engineer’s committee.

BTW – from the photo it looks like your right speaker might be generating SBIR. Make sure the distance from the woofer to the right wall is different than the distance from the woofer to the rear wall. They look like they might be pretty close. Weather you can hear this (or even care!!) is questionable; particularly given the asymmetry of the system (and corner location of any speaker). But if you hear excessive funkiness in the low end, simply slide everything over so that distances are different and you will likely hear a noticeable improvement (but not so much that one of those distances is the same as the woofer to the floor distance!). Of course, this is a living environment so aesthetics and comfort should always win out. But given the money invested in some of that playback equipment, it would likely be worth it to try to maximize the quality of playback within the confines of a living environment as much as reasonably possible.

[Derek Cohen]

Chris, I have heard of some who clean their vinyl with wood glue?! I suppose it is intended to come off as a dry sheet???

With regards sound waves bouncing off the walls, I am conscious of this. Our living room is not a great environment for hifi insofar as it is a large, open-planned space surrounded by floor-to-ceiling glass walls. I have tried to have as much space around both speakers as possible, but obviously this is different for each speaker, with the right side closer to a wall, and the left along an open space. These Kef LS50 Metas work best out in the open, and firing straight on. No toe in. However, I have given the right speaker a few degrees of toe in, and this makes a positive difference.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I do appreciate the comments and opportunity to share the woodwork in a hifi system.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Rainey]

Ron Swanson wouldn't like it. https://youtu.be/H_NfvRX_LP0?t=111

Rafael, the video is hilarious!

[Doug Dawson]

Chris, I have heard of some who clean their vinyl with wood glue?! I suppose it is intended to come off as a dry sheet???
It’s an extreme measure, a last resort, perhaps for those people who are unwilling to invest in an ultrasonic cleaning system (either commercial or home brew.)

OB woodworking, you of course know that you can construct cartridges out of wood, and this is an eastern delicacy. High dollar stuff.

[Mike Allen1010]

Joe, I know the Dual to be a very capable turntable. I am not familiar with the Polk speakers, other than they have a very good reputation.

Going off on a bit of a tangent here, but there is a relevant back story ...

In 2010, I built an entertainment centre based on twin campaign chests (this was before Chris Schwartz began to popularise the style). The idea was to leave space for the hifi, like this ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ItsJustNotCricket_html_m49355832.jpg

But I made the error of showing my wife, Lynndy, what it could look like with added drawer fronts ....

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ItsJustNotCricket_html_m2aef1aee.jpg

At that point she decided that twin chests were better than an entertainment centre, and that was it!

The TV was sited on one, and my hifi system became reduced to CD and DVD. The turntable and other equipment were banished to another family room.

Here you see it with one (of a pair) of Bowers & Wilkins DM 7 (mk 2) speakers. These are now 40 years old!

https://i.postimg.cc/fy46SYN4/Campaign-Chests.jpg


Well, the years went by and the turntable was hardly used. Younger kids and big dogs with swishing tails were not conducive to turntables with expensive cartridges. Then, a couple of months ago, a good friend showed me his new turntable, and how he was delighting in re-discovering his old vinyl collection. This brought back such memories and desires. I decided to do the same.

I had been out of the hifi scene for 30 years. Frankly, I am not interested in what audiophiles do, that is, listen to their systems rather than listen to the music. It is exactly like woodworking. Some purchase all the expensive tools and hang them on the wall, and this makes them feel good (all strength to their elbow). I appreciate and enjoy good tools, but at the end of the day I want to be building. In hifi I want to be listening. So I did a lot of research. It blew me away.

In addition to re-building the Thorens - I discovered that I had good taste all those years ago, and had purchased really good stuff - the next change was to get new speakers. Lynndy hated my B&W coffins, and had nagged me for years to get something smaller. So I did - Kef LS50 Meta speakers on stands. Quite amazing for such small speakers. I plan to add the matching KC62 subwoofer in the near future. Their imaging is extraordinary.

Now I needed to move the equipment off the cabinet. Time to add a matching stand. Again Jarrah ...

https://i.postimg.cc/DzVBTs59/1.jpg

New to me (but not to others) is streaming. I purchased a Cambridge Audio CXN (v2) streamer/DAC, have a subscription to Tidal (master disk recordings) and began ripping all my old CDs to FLAC files, which is stored on an old MacBook Pro. The amplifier is a 1990 Harman Kardon HK6500 (high current and high power). Still blows away modern stuff :) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/mDBjcsvV/2.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/bvQLNJBs/3.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/HnLt2tsy/5.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/vBhzfKMy/4.jpg

But it started with the turntable and its re-build. Here is the rear (minus the base and top plate) ..

https://i.postimg.cc/DZLNG4w4/18.jpg

Still tuning the suspension ...

https://i.postimg.cc/sgx0cN2r/23.jpg

The top plate was sanded back to aluminium and then clear coated ...

https://i.postimg.cc/0yxG1kYD/30.jpg

This is definitely a thread/post for audiophiles, but it has been a fun project in the middle of a very cold winter here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Wooooo daddy like! Okay that does it – I want to make my own turntable! I did know that was a thing you could do – but of course Derek is on it! I'm currently running an alldigital system with CAPS4 , (Computer Audio Pocket Server) optimized for audio playback , with Red Wine battery power source into a Bryson D/A converter. I love the convenience of playing lossless FLAC files using J River media systems app on my phone is remote. That said, I'm dying to spin some vinyl. That said odds that I will invest the time to figure out/acquire/assemble the necessary components (tone arm, cartridge, turntable mechanism etc.) are realistically play pretty slim.

I was recently helping to clean out my Dad's garage and I found the box for a Bang and Olufsen, Beogram turntable – has two "tone arm" that can generally track across the disk with early optical sensor technology. This was my first college student loan purchase in 1978. Sadly dad kept box but threw out the turntable – Arghhhh! Derek, you do have good taste in audio components – those old HK amplifiers are rock solid and sound great IMHO.

Thanks to the OP for sanding question. This is an issue I've always struggled with, I think due to my self perceived Krenovian mysticism around the quality of a hand planed finish. FWIW, I will evolve to hand plane, card scraper for those small/shallow/reverse ingrained spots and 400 grit in an orbital sander. It feels like cheating, but to my eyes, produces a more uniform surface. YMMV

Cheers, Mike

[Derek Cohen]

Wooooo daddy like! Okay that does it – I want to make my own turntable! I did know that was a thing you could do – but of course Derek is on it! I'm currently running an alldigital system with CAPS4 , (Computer Audio Pocket Server) optimized for audio playback , with Red Wine battery power source into a Bryson D/A converter. I love the convenience of playing lossless FLAC files using J River media systems app on my phone is remote. That said, I'm dying to spin some vinyl. That said odds that I will invest the time to figure out/acquire/assemble the necessary components (tone arm, cartridge, turntable mechanism etc.) are realistically play pretty slim.

I was recently helping to clean out my Dad's garage and I found the box for a Bang and Olufsen, Beogram turntable – has two "tone arm" that can generally track across the disk with early optical sensor technology. This was my first college student loan purchase in 1978. Sadly dad kept box but threw out the turntable – Arghhhh! Derek, you do have good taste in audio components – those old HK amplifiers are rock solid and sound great IMHO.

Thanks to the OP for sanding question. This is an issue I've always struggled with, I think due to my self perceived Krenovian mysticism around the quality of a hand planed finish. FWIW, I will evolve to hand plane, card scraper for those small/shallow/reverse ingrained spots and 400 grit in an orbital sander. It feels like cheating, but to my eyes, produces a more uniform surface. YMMV

Cheers, Mike

Mike, see here is another reason I shall be visiting you one of these Covid-past days. :) Your system sounds so interesting. My turntable should be completed this weekend, enough to finish tuning the suspension, then connect up and play. I have a few hundred albums to re-discover. At present, in addition to the ripped CDs (using the XLD app), I am listening to streamed digital music via Tidal courtesy of the Cambridge Audio CXN 2. Much of this is better than lossless FLAC! Direct off the master tapes. Impressive. 7 million albums to choose from. :eek:

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Curt Putnam]

I will have to investigate Tidal. My current streaming is SiriusXM which was selected in order to have tunes on our road trips. There are not many broadcast towers in rural Western America. For serious listening I have ripped all my CDs to FLAC files using a program called "Exact Audio Copy". Playback is through a Cambridge Audio DAC100 and then to my Stax Earspeakers. Background listening uses a Camridge Audio integrated amp which push a set of Polk bookshelf speakers. Works for my and my hearing loss. Spending more would not yield better sound in my head.

There was a time when I thought that hand planed surfaces were the ultimate. Both Rob Lee and Derek Cohen quickly altered that belief. Much depends on the surface finish and sheen that is desired.

[Derek Cohen]

Curt, Tidal is amazing.

My apologies all for taking this thread off on a tangent. To add in some woodworking, here is the final pictures of the turntable plus isolation table ...

https://i.postimg.cc/wjpDCYsS/46.jpg

The isolation table, which is to counteract the cabinet on which it sits, which may act like a sound board. This is Jarrah and acrylic (the acrylic does not vibrate) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/vmRPwFh9/56.jpg

It sits loosely on top. Underneath a shallow sorbothane feet ..

https://i.postimg.cc/nh9dWc4p/57.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/GpkXc7gf/58.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/ZR4V0815/55.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Curt Putnam]

Thanks Derek,

Do you prefer vinyl? I have one album in both CD & vinyl and found that there was some sampling loss at one particularly poignant guitar note. I've been under the impression that acrylic does vibrate albeit not much. The table in my low end U-Turn is cast glass or some such with a fabric cover that I am thinking of swapping for cork.

For jazz lovers, try kjazz.org also available on IHeart radio

[Derek Cohen]

Kurt, thank for the jazz link - I am a mad fan of 60s jazz. Until recently I was an avid user of Internet radio in the workshop. This has now changed.

I enjoy both digital and analogue. The analogue interest is evident above. Tidal is a terrific digital source. And the Cambridge Audio CXN (2) is an amazing piece of kit. Via Tidal, it streams master tape level recordings. The quality is superb! Good enough to enable my wife and I to agree that a recording from an original release of Santana's Abraxys was significantly better (more detail and better imaging) than a re-release from 2012.

I also stream Tidal to the workshop via an old iPhone connected to a system comprising Cambridge Audio amp and Mordant Short speakers. Tidal has replaced Internet radio.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joe Bailey]

Kurt, thank for the jazz link - I am a mad fan of 60s jazz. Until recently I was an avid user of Internet radio in the workshop. This has now changed.

I enjoy both digital and analogue. The analogue interest is evident above. Tidal is a terrific digital source. And the Cambridge Audio CXN (2) is an amazing piece of kit. Via Tidal, it streams master tape level recordings. The quality is superb! Good enough to enable my wife and I to agree that a recording from an original release of Santana's Abraxys was significantly better (more detail and better imaging) than a re-release from 2012.

I also stream Tidal to the workshop via an old iPhone connected to a system comprising Cambridge Audio amp and Mordant Short speakers. Tidal has replaced Internet radio.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I KNEW IT! - for some reason, when I first saw that turntable, I said to myself: "I bet he's into jazz." Maybe, subliminally, I derived this from your taste in furniture.

That is also my music of choice - predominantly '50s & '60s jazz: Blakey, Mingus, Coltrane, Rollins, Getz, and of course Miles and Brubeck, to name just a few.

One of my 1TB drives has nearly 7,000 jazz FLAC tracks!

[Curt Putnam]

Mu DISCOGS reports 285 vinyl entries thus far. At least 150 are straight jazz. At 8 tracks per record that would put me somewhere in the vicinity of 10% of your collection on vinyl. My CD collection is maybe the same size. I have not yet recorded my vinyl - already did that to cassette tape - which have all been chucjed.

[Derek Cohen]

Curt, my vinyl collection is about the same as yours (closing in on about 300 albums), with possibly the same amount of CD's. This is a drop in the ocean compared to some guys I know, who have tens of thousands of albums! But when you consider that average album now can cost about $50, with the older editions (such as many I have) having prices of between $250-$350, then it starts to get very pricy! The equipment is the cheapest part. This is one reason I am also geared up for digital. Tidal have around 7 million albums at master tape level from which to choose. It is mind boggling!

I am on a MacBook Pro, which means that I use XLD for ripping CDs into Flac files. The digital from Tidal has a sampling rate a few times better than CD! You really get a chance to decode the individual instruments, and the image is also more strongly defined. One of the problems with iPhones is that they do not work with Flac, but do their own version of lossless, which is Alac. The iPhones will not support Alac directly, that is via the native music player. You can get around this using Vox. Alac files into the car system are as good as listening to CDs.

Joe, I listen to all the same artists you do. I have a special fondness for jazz piano, with my absolute favourite, Bill Evans, whom I have been listening to for around 4 decades. Also lots of blues and more "modern" jazz (all too numerous to mention), and popular crossovers, such as Steely Dan and Van Morrison.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Howard Pollack]

Ah, Bill Evans! He was the most lyrical piano player! I was in a restaurant in rural Umbria in Italy. The music in the restaurant was very familiar. I asked the owner and he said, with a big smile, Bill Evans! One of those moments...

[steven c newman]

Too smooth a surface...and it begins to look like you merely laid a sheet of glass on the top....or, poured a layer of clear epoxy.....Kind of hard to sell as "Hand Made", isn't it?

[Bill Carey]

I KNEW IT! - for some reason, when I first saw that turntable, I said to myself: "I bet he's into jazz." Maybe, subliminally, I derived this from your taste in furniture.

That is also my music of choice - predominantly '50s & '60s jazz: Blakey, Mingus, Coltrane, Rollins, Getz, and of course Miles and Brubeck, to name just a few.

One of my 1TB drives has nearly 7,000 jazz FLAC tracks!


Let's not forget Art Pepper, Coleman Hawkins, Frank Morgan, Sidney Bechet or Son House and Junior Kimbrough.

[steven c newman]

And...the late Charlie Watts....

[Derek Cohen]

Let's not forget Art Pepper, Coleman Hawkins, Frank Morgan, Sidney Bechet or Son House and Junior Kimbrough.

Oscar Peterson, Theloniuos Monk, John Coltrane, Billie Holiday, Jim Hall, Charlie Parker, Louis Armstrong, Art Pepper, Dave Brubeck, Ahmad Jamal, Diana Krall, Ella Fitzgerald, Nina Simone, Julian Large, Keith Jarrett, Kenny Burrell, Wynton Marsalis ...........................................

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Allen1010]

I know it's a digression from woodworking, but really enjoyed this music/audio talk! Thanks for motivating me to re-explore my vinyl.

This thread is further evidence why SMC cocktail party would be awesome; friendly, outgoing people with multiple shared interests and now sound track under development! Sign me up for "wood shop casual" dress code!

Cheers, Mike

Btw: Derek you & Lindy are always more than welcome at our house. Hope you will visit anytime! After this pandemic isolation I've gained renewed appreciation for genuine in person fellowship.

[Curt Putnam]

I would have to say that the Gene Harris/Ray Brown hookups are my favorite. Despite that, Gene Harris' "Trio plus One" rides on top of the list. It was a day in early Sep (about 60 yrs ago) when I was 1st introduced to jazz - Dave Brubeck and "Take Five".

I think I have all of Bob James' recordings and many of Dave Grusin's. On Sunday mornings, SiriusXM plays 3 hours of acoustic blues. The blues have taken over from jazz as background noise because my wife will listen to the blues but hates jazz. None of this is hifi but I can get it in the mountains, plains, and deserts. Here, at the house, the only :music: is the Mexican style brassy stuff the border blasters play.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Double iron planing helps ignore grain direction.
Derek

Hi Derek, what do you mean by that? what is double iron plaining?

[Derek Cohen]

Assaf, a "double iron" is another name for a blade+chipbreaker.

When the chipbreaker is closed down, the plane can plane equally into- and with the grain.

Regards from Perth

Derek