True divided light cabinet door joints

[Alex Horvath]

Hi, building a divided light cabinet door with 3/4" stock, about 18" wide x 30" high, 2x3 lights, 1/8" glass.
I have a Freud 88-281 bit set that is made for glass doors and thus there is a rabbet on the back. This set does not make tenons.

I was planning to make the muntins with tenons but after reading up on glass cabinet doors I noticed that almost no one uses tenons on the muntins anymore. Apparently glue + brads on the back is good enough for cabinet doors. I also have a book on making windows and the author says they generally don't make tenons on the muntins anymore. Of course they don't make many true divided light windows anymore either.

My main concern is the strength of the frame joints. Because of the rabbet there is no tenon on the rail and the cope profile is not a tight fit in the stile. Could be because I was just practicing and stock not held 100% stable as I don't have a coping sled (I'll make a sled) From various sources on the web it seems that they just glue the frame joints as is but they don't really say.

In theory a floating tenon could be done, is this a good idea? If so would it be a 1/4" thick tenon and would it be centered on the stock? It's a little awkward to make the mortises on cope and stick stock because your ploughing through the profiles.

Regardless I'm going to make a practice door with softwood first.

Thanks

[John TenEyck]

You might consider an alternative approach, one I learned from an article by Steve Latta in FWW several years ago. Instead of making complete moldings, you make the rabbet portion separately, and join them as half-lap joints. Here are some parts for a set of doors I made with divided lites.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLWlf35Btu2DoR2Bnc48G_ThIksxsegr93WyXF2iX1oKlSGcU eqg_uVygmy145HXeZVtXdmMrBT8nLcGArm4v5XflG6esELROIp qhd-19gOgBUlYksVUIuw7uUPtF6lIVyBbJ5g59wEquPqkA_Uoqloug Q=w820-h615-no?authuser=0

The tenons on the ends of the parts fit in mortises in the stiles and rails of the door frame as you glue up the door.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLXYAhSuut9tSEchuV-ECqgykbqzGf9tIQiLavy0oE9mLyvNSkYDGizxbyInBKOHfBD77 CF5vneq-u_fDl7BgqTIRqKeLA3Uqc2GyTwn9WJixYXltBpXQkrfx3gAIKB 4hrc82xSz3_DfaPUyCqwR3RIMfw=w820-h615-no?authuser=0

You cut the moldings and then run a shallow dado on the back to register over the half lapped frame. I think you could use the molding set you have by ripping off the rabbet or?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLUuwLdmPo4n-seDwr8h9gw35DvLaxrZB6oZwLczWel47lRQqDXCtC1ADiifKKU UhL4J0ZtiYhybztO-ubWfPEE37gH6iYBT8L60XT4Ilu3MADYsmSAu2YTQLu0KLzOoSN YONBz2Pty_YLj4MNfygAgAjA=w820-h615-no?authuser=0

The ends are coped to match the same profile already cut on the door frame. The sections in the other direction are coped on the ends as well. I did it on a wide piece of stock first.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLUavEdwBo5uUz9OwcRsGyhtUEK69Hrz9nvttOXAcY3rGgQGh foWl-rL-LNqjaOwvSIiZdoXkhBr260UO-IANXwHV0p3oNLUdCBcm4iCJtobEhMYZdHYskdrmv2DcmLMmWz9 Dxl0sBeuejF6UYxzBDw08A=w820-h615-no?authuser=0

Then ripped them to width and ran the molded profile.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLUoK2bvqiFt_BMfHf5RXbn2K3nuPT2gR0VKeaZ66nn8dtjmT bWq-aG0SFrzGPrWzO50iAUutKInNhSQtcJuH0ikjiN-O35OZn0CvH1ZZLrXk_MLL7xxm6zJMvxYWHmsczgnCmwqHThg6f PXG-qBSFfFbg=w820-h615-no?authuser=0

I glued on all the molded parts at once in order to make sure nothing moved along the way. And when you're done it looks like this.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLW8uC4xp442XrI5ZxKyXrAq9BHLi1QciI6uMNZropzd-E0Shu-L9p3m_X0u1XdnIWn73zURBhLWTcCWbKeMmAMxPslT0ygXM47Pr 6_MKfRhB7qaKhzCa6IjIKBzC-NfLeHT74sV1bakHDSNeGmG-RLPoQ=w820-h615-no?authuser=0

All in all, it's a pretty straight forward process and the result is inherently flat and strong.

John

[Kevin Jenness]

There really isn't enough material in a 3/4" muntin to insert a spline tenon- maybe a dowel. John's method is the way to go for a strong result. Simply gluing the copes will be adequate but weaker. You could reinforce the copes with some fabric glued into the corners but that would be hard to hide under the stops. I'm not sure what you would accomplish with brads.

[Richard Coers]

The way I do it, is use a standard cope and stick cutter set and build up the door and mullions. When dried I use a flush trim bit and take off the back side of the dado so I get a rabbet. I square up the corners with a chisel and then make a glass stop.

[Greg Quenneville]

If you have a domino machine you can machine a small mortice right through the profile to fit the stub tenon on the end of the muntin. I used that method with good results on my garage doors.

[Kevin Jenness]

The problem with using a domino (or spline tenon) is the available width in the stock in this situation. Even a square sash bar would have to be at least 24 mm wide to accept a 5mm domino, and the specific profile used might require more width. Glazed cabinet doors look best with narrow muntins.

[Jared Sankovich]

Glazed cabinet doors look best with narrow muntins.

Imho 3/4" width is ideal. These are 1.125 or so square and as narrow as I could get away with based on the profile, and still quite a bit wider than I'd prefer.
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[Rod Dilyard]

Here's a video that might help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIyHjoV0qxo. The door building begins at 8:55 and it's the same technique I used to build the doors on my wife's china cabinet pictured below. If you look closely you'll see that he's using a jig to align and guide the chisel at 45 degrees while cutting the miters. This little tip was key to making the miters fit tightly and consistently at all the joints. I found the process to be one of the most rewarding woodworking experiences I've ever had. Take your time and sneak up on the fit and when it slides together you'll get a smile on your face every time. I purchased a bearing-guided router bit set to make the muntin profile. I don't recall where I purchased them, but I can do some digging and probably find out you're interested in purchasing your own set. One of the issues you'll discover pretty early is how to put the profile on both sides of the muntins since they are very thin and that's where the "negative" profile of the bit set became very useful. I routed the positive profile on the edge of a piece of whatever material you're using (in my case it was cherry) and ripped that off on the table saw to the width of the muntin. I then inserted that finished positive edge into a jig routed with the negative profile. I didn't do anything other than rely on friction to hold it while I routed the other side. I opted to make thin strips of the profile to hold the glass in place and used clear silicone to hold then in place. The result was invisible and reversible if I ever need to replace one of the panes. Hope this helps!

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[Warren Lake]

the guy in the video is an excellent cabinetmaker. Putting wood on a floor you talk on is just about a gaurantee to chip your knives unless there is something under it I dont see.

The door and window companies ive seen do cope and stick and have mortise and tennon into the rails and styles.

Hes doing it the other way ive seen other small shop or old cabinetmakers do it with Mitres. Old guy said they had a machine that came down and cut it all in one shot so I presume he meant the mullions and muntins and also where they go into the rails and styles. I think those are the two ways its done by cabinetmakers. I have a sample here from one company that made doors for historic places in canada and the US and they are stave core, thick and all the muntins and mullions are cope and stick to them selves and cope and stick mortise and tennon into the rails and styles. I kind of like to take it apart but will try when a bit more time to take photos of the of the details. That company also made their own thermal pane glass in a clean room that was part of the shop but kept closed all the time.

Likely Joe has shown the cope and stick and mortised into the rails and styles in some past photos. Not sure but that is how the second generation door and window company I last looked at did it.

[Tom M King]

I've never made a divided light door, but many replacement window sash, and even fixed old sash by knocking the pegs out, making replacement parts, and putting them back together. There is plenty of wood in 3/4" muntins for mortise, and tenon, and even 5/8".

The only 3/4 ones I've made were for 18th Century houses. After then, or at least around here, they went to the narrower 5/8".

Here's a picture of one before putting it together. No glue needed.

[Warren Lake]

thanks for posting that narrow looks good. Have to find the time to take pictures of this one door since it was a full time door and window company. Id almost like to take it apart but think will try photos first of all.

[Greg Quenneville]

I agree that narrow sash bars look best. My tip about the domino was just using it to cut the mortice in the frame and trimming the stub tenon left on the sash bar to fit that hole. Which still leaves you with a 20mm sash bar when using the 5mm domino cutter.

[John TenEyck]

With Steve Latta's method you can make the muntins any width you want with no worry of having sufficient cross section to create a strong M&T joint. I don't think you can create a stronger structure than his process.

John

[Kevin Jenness]

I agree that narrow sash bars look best. My tip about the domino was just using it to cut the mortice in the frame and trimming the stub tenon left on the sash bar to fit that hole. Which still leaves you with a 20mm sash bar when using the 5mm domino cutter.

That makes sense. I thought you were suggesting using the domino tenons, which would require a margin around the mortise in the muntin. Of course you have to have a cutter set that makes a stub tenon for that to work. Traditional sash work is really properly done with square cornered mortises and coped integral tenons.

I couldn't find the Freud set the o.p. mentioned, but I would guess it is similar to this https://www.freudtools.com/products/99-281, which does not lend itself to spline tenons due to the small section left after milling. It may be possible to fit a small dowel in the joint. Freud actually makes a router bit set for 3/4" glass doors that can be used to make 1/4" long stub tenons fit into square mortises https://www.freudtools.com/products/99-270

I dug these samples out of storage. The doweled joints are made with a Freeborn cope and stick set. The other two are made with full length coped tenons for the rail/stile joints, trimmed back on the munts to meet in the center of the sash bars, They range in thickness from 1 3/8" to 1 7/8". Two have 3/4" wide muntins, while the pine munts are only 1/2" wide, 3/16" wide rabbets and only 1/8" bars between the glass openings. Delicate. I made several for an old library building in a neighboring town, vintage early 1nth century.

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[David Stone (CT)]

You might consider an alternative approach, one I learned from an article by Steve Latta in FWW several years ago. Instead of making complete moldings, you make the rabbet portion separately, and join them as half-lap joints. Here are some parts for a set of doors I made with divided lites.


That is genius. I'm sure I'll use it someday. Thanks to Steve Latta for the concept and you for posting your excellent pictures and description. Very nice work, BTW.

[John Erickson]

I seen a couple articles in Fine Woodworking (No. 38 & 72) giving a pretty good description of how to build barred glass doors and thought this would make a nice glass cabinet door for a kitchen build. I always made my own doors and enjoy a challenge.
I made a PDF's of the articles but the file was too large to upload, if you want I can email them or try to PM to you.
The attached image is result of many many hours perfecting a method I'd never done before. The mullions are .5" wide round (.25" radius) attached to the ribs as the article describes. The oval mullion is thin strips to form a bent lamination using several pattern culls to form and mill.
Each door has 11 panes of glass held in with glazing points and then glazed with putty. I also attached a couple images of the radius doors I built in the same build. I run into that customer from time to time and after 15 yrs no issues.

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[Kevin Jenness]

Very nice work, John. I used the same built-up technique on some arch-top church windows with insulated glass units. It avoids the difficulty of milling rabbets into thin curved muntins (hard enough to get accurate results on straight material). I was first introduced to the method in Joyce's Encyclopedia of Furniture Making.

[Joe Calhoon]

That is some outstanding work John!.
To the question about using the domino for TDL work- I have one exterior door set that I use the XL Domino with a 5mm bit with a jig to hold the Domino cross way to the stiles. I think the stroke of the Domino is too great to work on a cabinet door but works well on house doors. This works well with the 2 piece TDL and also a one piece if you end up with 5mm between the profiles. I also use the HC mortiser sometimes using a spacer when needed.
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