Hold fasts

[Jack Frederick]

I am in the planning stages of a woodworking bench. I have the Benchcrafted Classic and a 52 1/2 Record for vises and the BC plaining stop. I intend to get one or two hold fasts. I see BC has a 1” and LN has 3/4.” The 3/4 would be simpler as I intend to use 3/4 round bench dogs and cheaper. The BC is $165 vs the LN at $70. Is there a substantial difference in performance of these two?

[Joshua Lucas]

I don't see much sense in getting either of those cast iron holdfasts when you can get forged steel ones from Gramercy for a fraction of the cost. (https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-HOLDFAST.XX) Seriously, you can get SEVEN Gramercy holdfasts for the price of ONE Crucible.

And for the same price of the Lie-Nielsen, you can get a much prettier forged steel holdfast from Black Bear Forge (https://www.etsy.com/shop/blackbearforge/). Looks like they're currently sold out of 3/4" holdfasts but the 1" versions are still available.

[Jim Koepke]

Sadly Harry Strasil Jr is now making holdfasts in the great beyond. His were made with 5/8" rod and work fine in a 3/4" hole.

462086

Here a pair is being used to secure a batten for cutting a dado.

In my experience with a Sjöberg bench it might be better to have a second row of holes for using holdfasts. Hold fasts can exert a lot of force on the hole where they are used. Dog holes near the edge of a bench may start to split out.

Harry's holdfasts will work in a 3/4" hole drilled in a piece of 2X used as tops on my saw benches.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

Recently (last 2-3 years) the Gramercy holdfast has been top of the heap in thread after thread here for price/value. In a softwood top I would plan to not use holdfasts in the dog holes.

On my first (and still only) bench I started with 3/4 holes and holdfasts not Gramercy. I eventually upgraded to a pair of Crucibles and rebored the holes in my top. There are many many pieces of bench top jewelry that won't work on my bench.

I like having the extra reach, the extra height of the Crucibles, but as my work evolves I need the extra height less and less but have to move the heavier holdfasts around every time.

If you are doing mostly flat work, rarely dealing with stock thicker than say 6/4 or so on the benchtop, I can't think of a good reason to think about the crucibles until you are stacking all four sides of a drawer to chop all your dovetails at one end in a matter of a few minutes. Someone who routinely uses Gramercys on 8/4 stock may be along shortly with good news, I can't argue with them; but I see a 36" table leg at 4x4 square as something a Gramercy can do, but 12 feet of 8/4 stock ten inches wide is a different beast to hold on to.

The other thing is reboring 3/4 holes up to 1 inch is a pain, but it isn't that bad. Plugging one inch holes to rebore at 3/4 is a serious pain in the neck. My next bench is at least three years away, but one thing I will look at for my next build is how often I really need the crucibles. I will give serious though to trialing a pair of Gramercy before boring my next bench top.

[Dave Mills]

I don't see much sense in getting either of those cast iron holdfasts when you can get forged steel ones from Gramercy for a fraction of the cost. (https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-HOLDFAST.XX) Seriously, you can get SEVEN Gramercy holdfasts for the price of ONE Crucible.

Does Gramercy say their holdfasts are forged? I'm not sure on the technical details of forging, but theirs are made from bending steel rods. Maybe the flattened business end is forged? I'm not trying to discount the product, I'm just not sure they even claim they are forged.

[Jim Koepke]

Does Gramercy say their holdfasts are forged? I'm not sure on the technical details of forging, but theirs are made from bending steel rods. Maybe the flattened business end is forged? I'm not trying to discount the product, I'm just not sure they even claim they are forged.

This is what they say:


We ended up designing a tool ourselves: a modern holdfast, made of modern formed wire, in a modern factory.

Mine are welded between the rod and the top piece.

jtk

[Daniel Culotta]

Gramercys work fine in the softwood bench top (5" thick), saw benches (1 1/2" thick), etc. for me. I had trouble with them bouncing in a few holes in the thick bench top, so I put a few dimples on their shafts with a center punch and now you could easily lift the bench with one once they're set. They lock down on items that are 3-4" high, too with no problem. Unless you're very sure you need more height or reach or you just like the style of something else, Gramercy is a good option in my experience.

[Richard Verwoest]

I have 2 black bear forged, 2 gramercy and 2 Crucible. On an 8' bench. I have dedicated holes for the crucibles to hold my Moxon vice and my BC high vise. The Black Bears have a little longer reach than the Gramercy. But other than that, I just grab whatever is close and smack with a lump hammer.

[Rob Luter]

Have a couple from Gramercy. They work great.

edit: 3 1/2” maple bench top with 3/4 holes. Shafts roughed up with 80 grit. YMMV.

[Todd Trebuna]

Pronghorn ironworks is on Etsy. The 5/8 (for 3/4 dogs) are exceptionally made, reasonable and hold fast.I have 4. I bought 2 and they were so well made, I bought 2 more. I tried the cast ones and they wouldn’t hold in my bench. There are forged ones available on Etsy for around 30 apiece and will give you a much better experience than cheap cast ones.

[Frederick Skelly]

Got 4 of the Grammercy. Love them.

[Derek Cohen]

I would stick to 3/4” holes and shafts. My hold fasts are both the Gramercy and the Veritas screw downs, and both perform superbly well in my 3 1/2” thick European Oak bench top.

Here is a video I made of how easy it is to use the Gramercy (recommended viewing for the insomniacs amongst us) …

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OaI_E2Yv1O0&pp=sAQA

The advantage of a 3/4” hole is that it opens up the door to many choices. I’ve never seen an advantage in a 1” shaft as I am not a reenactor nor have the desire to clamp a tree to my bench.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jack Frederick]

Much obliged to you all for your responses. Gramercy it is…well, now all I have to do is build the bench. More questions to follow;)

[Phil Gaudio]

I started out using the LN holdfasts and they worked quite well. At some point I saw what Christian Becksvoort was using and thought I'd give them a try: Excellent! I pretty much use these now exclusively. Veritas Hold-Down.
https://i.postimg.cc/j54KkYRL/05-G1401-veritas-hold-down-u-01-r.jpg (https://postimg.cc/jw2GL9wb)

[Edward Weber]

I would stick to 3/4” holes and shafts. My hold fasts are both the Gramercy and the Veritas screw downs, and both perform superbly well in my 3 1/2” thick European Oak bench top.

Here is a video I made of how easy it is to use the Gramercy (recommended viewing for the insomniacs amongst us) …

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OaI_E2Yv1O0&pp=sAQA

The advantage of a 3/4” hole is that it opens up the door to many choices. I’ve never seen an advantage in a 1” shaft as I am not a reenactor nor have the desire to clamp a tree to my bench.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Couldn't agree more.
Hold downs are usually used in conjunction with a stop of some kind anyway. Why you would need the added size and mass of a 1" thick shaft to simply keep your work from lifting off the bench is elusive to me. Maybe because I'm not an 18th century woodworker.
Just because something is based on an old design doesn't automatically make it good.
When something gets to the size where I would need a holdfast with a 1" thick shaft, gravity alone usually takes over.

[Scott Winners]

When something gets to the size where I would need a holdfast with a 1" thick shaft, gravity alone usually takes over.

I found the crucibles most useful when I was trying to learn timber frame joinery indoors in the winter time. I bought two rough sawn pieces, a 4x10 and an 8x8. Both were over ten feet long. For scrubbing those down to where I could use a fore plane to get them smooth enough for pencil layout I found the crucibles nearly ideal. I could have used maybe ratcheting tow straps, but that would have been time consuming.

The Doug Fir blank for my face vise chop was 16/4, 9 feet, 13" wide. The gramercy's might could have handled that, the plank I bought had been surfaced green, so I was able to go immediately to straight edge and pencil layout. Besides the chop I got all four legs for my next bench out of that plank.

[Derek Cohen]

An older photo, but I did not say anything about the Veritas hold downs. The Gramercy cannot be beat for their price. Some have experienced difficulty with this kind of hold down in their bench. The reason is usually that the bench top is under 2” or 4” and greater. There is a fix for both. My Gramercy hold downs work effortlessly. Now consider the Veritas. They are even better. They set with a twist of the brass knob. This allows also for a range in the downforce. They can, therefore, fit into more confined or restricted areas (where you cannot swing a mallet). They have a longer reach. I’ve used them in a sliding deadman, mine being 1” thick. The down side is they are expensive. I got lucky with two of mine for $50 at a garage sale.

https://i.postimg.cc/pdHnghY8/16a.jpg

More recent photo … note the space between the bench and cabinet for the shafts. Plan for this if considering something similar …

https://i.postimg.cc/wTM3GWzV/Underbench-Cabinet-Completion-Cabinet-html-140159d4.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joshua Lucas]

Does Gramercy say their holdfasts are forged? I'm not sure on the technical details of forging, but theirs are made from bending steel rods. Maybe the flattened business end is forged? I'm not trying to discount the product, I'm just not sure they even claim they are forged.


A bit late getting back, but Gramercy's may be formed cold rather than forged, I don't know. The important part is that they're steel and not cast iron.

[scott lipscomb]

I made holdfasts by bending concrete forming stakes (and other cold rolled rod) right out of a forge. They work well. This how the gramercy hold fasts appear to made to me.

[Jim Koepke]

A small limb from a tree can be used to make a holdfast. Of course it isn't as strong as one made of steel.

jtk