SCMI SI12 short stroke sliding table saw - any owners here?

[Phillip Mitchell]

I am strongly considering upsetting my current tandem table saw setup and getting a used short stroke slider. I’ve seen the value and wanted one for years, but until a recent shop re-arrange, never quite saw the space available for one in my ~500 sq ft shop. For build quality, track record and price the SCMI SI 12 is at the top of my list. Budget is $3k or under. Not interested in Felder or lighter duty Minimax (SC 3) as I have a strong preference for heavier machinery and don’t see the value in paying a premium for more aluminum and electronics. I like to keep my machinery as simple as reasonably possible and none of my current machines are newer than early 90s for a reason. I considered a few older SC 3 saws that I have seen for sale recently, but something tells me that unless I find a really cherry example of one, that I may be disappointed and wishing I’d gone with a saw with a slightly heavier build. I’m open to being wrong on this.

I currently have a dual table saw setup in the middle of my shop that consists of a Tannewitz Model U (16” + blade, fixed table, 5 HP, 24” rack and pinion fence) and a Powermatic 66 facing each other with a short outfeed table between them. The saws are coplanar with each other and the 66 has a 52” bies fence on it. Right now I use the Tannewitz for ripping, crosscutting, and joinery that doesn’t involve a dado blade. I use the 66 for dadoes and plywood, though I still generally use a track saw first to put an initial reference edge on the sheet and often times for the first cross cut because of spatial/outfeed clearance challenges at the table saw. Because of (3) load-bearing block columns that run down the very center of the shop, I am limited to a little less than 24” of clearance to the left of the blade on the 66, which can make full sheet plywood cuts impossible sometimes depending on actual dimensions needed.

I’m considering selling one or possible both of them and adding a stoutly built short stroke (~50” +) sliding saw. I would prefer to sell the 66, keep the Tannewitz for heavy ripping duty on longer stock, which I tend to do plenty of and try and nest the Tannewitz back to back with the slider, obviously on the side where the sliding table is not. Even with both current saws gone, I don’t think I would have room for a full stroke (8’+) slider and even if I could physically get it through the door and fit it in the space, I’m not sure I want to commit to taking up ~18’ of stroke space.

Tasks that I would use this saw for would include solid wood and sheet stock crosscutting, solid wood joinery cuts, cabinet, etc sized sheet stock dimensioning, short length ripping, tapers, etc. I build a wide variety of custom woodwork from small things all the way up to entry doors and sometimes beyond. As nice and heavy and accurate as the Tannewitz miter gauges are with long wooden fences, they have their limits for cross cutting when thicker stock lengths start to exceed 4-5’ and that happens with enough regularity in my work that I have felt the need for a better crosscut solution for some time. I have been working with enough sheet stock as of late also to see the value in a short stroke slider that has enough crosscut for a 48” sheet.

I do not currently have a miter saw set up in my shop and haven’t for a few years. I have considered tracking down an industrial miter saw and setting it up with a side table with stops, but would rather not due to space constraints and if I could kill 2 birds with one stone with a well-built short stroke slider, I would rather go that route.

The SCMI SI 12 (late 80s, 90s, early 2000s? era) is at the top of my list. I have also seen the older SCM L’invincibile SI 15(F), though this looks less capable, convenient with sheet stock than the more modern SI12, but maybe I’m too quick to judge. I have a soft spot for old SCM stuff, but not brand loyal by any means. Is there anything else similar in build quality, capability, price and size that I should be looking for? As much as I love OWWM and the old iron, all the short stroke sliders I’m aware of are more optimized for solid wood and thus don’t have enough crosscut capacity for the 48” sheet stock crosscut.

3 phase up to 10HP is not an issue. Space (width and length) is a big concern. I’ve attached a few pics of my current table saw setup. The slider would go in place of the Tannewitz and if possible the Tannewitz could stay and go where the 66 is, but it’s hard for me to visualize it accurately without actually having the slider in the space.

If this matters to you, I do this professionally as my means to make a living. While I won’t always be in this shop space, I would like to try and find a saw that will not only fit here for the next handful of years and really increase my efficiency/accuracy, but also provide value later on in a larger shop space.

Thanks for any input.

[Erik Loza]

Phillip, those short-stroke Si's are solid machines. They literally don't make them like any longer. It sounds like you know what you're looking for but a few observations from having seen so many:

-Machines are often rode pretty hard. Sliding tables may need adjustment or possibly new ball bearings if they've been sitting for a while in a humid shop.
-Make sure all crosscut fence flip stops are present. Those always seem to be missing. Ditto for riving knives and sawblade guards.
-Spare parts may/may not still be available.

Hope this helps.

Erik

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks Erik,

Ideally, I’m looking for a well kept example with as many accessories and fences present. There is actually an SI12 on IRS auctions ending in a few days in Baltimore, that I considered but it’s missing the rip fence, crosscut fence, stops, hold down clamp. Unless I’m missing a source for parts then I plan to pass even if it’s very cheap as I don’t have the space and time and energy to put the saw in storage for months while I try and track down all the accessories that I have so far seen no evidence of on the used market. I’ve learned that it’s worth waiting longer and paying a bit more for older machines that are well kept and largely complete with accessories if you use these machines to make your living.

[Warren Lake]

You need alot of width for those saws. Buy complete both my Invincibles came from original german owners, 100 complete. Plug and play. Buy used and if you need a bit of care you saved and end up with 2 or 3 machines of what new would cost. New is no guarantee of set up right or all castings true. Old stuff may be rode hard but was built to be rode hard. Those old machines were built for industry.

[Erik Loza]

...I’ve learned that it’s worth waiting longer and paying a bit more for older machines that are well kept and largely complete with accessories if you use these machines to make your living.

Phillip, from a guy who is in shops all the time, I must disagree with that statement. In my experience, shops who are serious about making a living are far better off buying a new machine. I don't mean this to sound disrespectful but EVERY customer I have ever met who gives the whole, "I'm just going to hold out for that perfect used machine" has one thing in common: They never find it. To the contrary, this mentality actually holds you back from business standpoint. No sales schtick: Just being honest. If someone wants a vintage machine because they want a vintage machine, that's one thing but making it a business plan to wait for the perfect used machine is a good way to not move forward professionally (who was that guy here who found his perfect used martin slider, then had basically a year-long thread about trying to actually get it running and usable? Didn't he "buy it for business"). Again, no disrespect intended. Just my observations. I hope this all makes sense.

Erik

[Phillip Mitchell]

No offense taken. I don’t fundamentally disagree with you and certainly understand the point. Traditionally speaking in business and scaling a business, I’m sure you’re correct, however I look at it a little differently and intentionally do not want to scale beyond myself at this time. It really comes down to budget and what I can afford with cash. I don’t like borrowing for a machine purchase if at all possible and would rather sit tight and wait for the right used machine to come along that is in my cash budget than be in the hole for a new saw that is 3-5x (+ ?) the price. I simply do not have the cash available and am very unlikely to have it over the next few years for a new slider that is built to a level that I’d be happy with. In your estimation, what would a comparable new model saw cost right now and how long would the wait be?

I’m a small, one man shop and I don’t need a sliding saw so bad that I want to put myself in a position with a loan to have to make a payment on each month. Could I do that? Sure. Do I want the added overhead / burden of that in my small operation? No. If there’s anything that I’m willing to go into debt for it’s funding a new shop build on my own property, that will happen one of these years and I’m saving my debt for that experience / opportunity.

As for spending a year getting a used saw up and running, that’s not the game I’m trying to play right now, which is why the search is limited to what I’d call plug and play machines (that will cost appropriately more than a basket case.)

Your point about how long it will actually take to find the right saw is of real concern and sometimes the worst part of being picky and looking for used machines within a narrow set of filters. I have still found a lot of value over the years in being patient, keeping my eyes peeled on the used market and buying when it felt like the right machine/place/price. With my particular budgets, I’ve always felt like I could stretch my dollars way farther by searching hard and going used industrial compared with new. I don’t have the same budget or work at the same scale as a large shop.

I realize that this is intentionally limiting and counter to the approach of many scalable businesses. Thanks for your comments.

[Albert Lee]

I couldnt wait for the perfect saw and ordered a L'Invincibile double tilt short stroke (2200mm) panel saw. my shop is 30 x 20. my current slider is a 3800mm slider Griggio

[Kevin Jenness]

The shop I used to work at had an SI12. It was a good solid saw, and if you can find one in decent shape it should serve you well. All the ripping was done on a 66 and the SCMI was used strictly for crosscutting- in fact when I came on the rip fence was in storage! We sold it to get a long stroke slider, first an 80's era Griggio SC3000 and later a similar vintage Martin T71. The SCMI was a bit better made than the Griggio but "it's not a Martin". The full format machines were a game changer for us but your shop space limits you. Using the tracksaw for establishing an initial straight edge on sheets is a reasonable compromise.

The SI12 is probably a few inches wider than a PM 66 to the right of the blade for the same rip width due to the size of the fence casting. The sliding carriage is only about 12" wide as I recall, less than many full size sliders, and the extension is probably about 4' or less, so smaller than some but still pretty wide for your space. I can't remember for sure but I think the extension went on and off pretty easily, while the crosscut fence needed to be carefully reset to square. It's been 15 years since I had my hands on the saw so my memory is not that crisp.

The crosscut stops were kind of funky and I replaced them with a wood flipstop, so if you find a saw that is missing them no biggie. We never put a dado on the saw and I don't know if that's possible- if not that might be an issue for you although I guess you can get a dado set to fit your Tannewitz arbor. The scoring was run by a serpentine belt off the main arbor and worked ok, but it did tend to drift out of lateral adjustment and need frequent attention.

It seems like the big problem is those columns- they will just have to go! Will you rip pieces wider than 24" with the tracksaw? It looks like you wouldn't be able to crosscut a 4' sheet with more than that to the right of the blade either. You said " it’s hard for me to visualize it accurately without actually having the slider in the space." Do you use cad for drawing? If so you can plan it out to the fraction of an inch using material paths around the saw to determine clearances, if not make cardboard models and shift them around on a floor plan. I was convinced that we couldn't get a large slider into our space but after considerable fiddling in cad figured out a solution with a few inches to spare.

Sorry, I can't suggest other short stroke sliders from experience but I can say the SI12 is a good one to shoot for if available at a fair price. We got $2500 for ours when it went.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Albert,

Thanks for the comment. I have seen the video of your shop and while our square footages are similar (mine is basically 17’x28’) you have essentially a wide open space with no built-in obstructions and reasonable ceilings. I have multiple obstructions and low ceilings (it’s a walkout basement) and thus it’s not quite the same palette to paint on, as you might say.

Kevin,

Thanks as always for the feedback. Yes, the columns are a major problem...I have made some spatial changes recently to the shop space that have opened up a few more opportunities, but the columns (and low ceilings) continue to be the bane of my shop existence. Regarding machine layout, I took a closer look at it yesterday (based on measurements I gathered online, so grain of salt there...) I’m pretty creative with spatial challenges and figuring out what can fit where if I have accurate and actual measurements. The reason I made that comment is because I don’t know if the measurements I’ve been seeing online (that vary to a degree) are accurate enough for me to be scrutinizing every inch with. Based on dimensions I’ve seen, it seems like I could position the slider on the same side as the Tannewitz is currently and have ~40” to the right of the blade before I hit the column and ~60” to the left of the blade (sliding carriage side) before I run into the bandsaw. This is better than what I currently have for sheet goods processing by a large margin, but still less than ideal as I couldn’t crosscut a full sheet right in the middle...maybe I will look at what it would look like with the saw shifted to the left just enough to clear ~ 48” between right of blade and the column. Crosscutting a sheet exactly in half isn’t always what’s needed, but there have been plenty of times when that’s the most reasonable course of action when processing and it would be nice not to have to rely on the tracksaw for the rip and the first crosscut.

I know I won’t continue to survive and thrive as a business in this space for too much longer, but I have so much (relative) time, energy and (to a less extent) “infrastructure” money into making it what it has become that moving to a short term rental space (and adding in shop rent and drive time to and from) does not feel worth it to me at the moment unless I come across the ideal shop space, which I have yet to do. Physically moving my shop will be no small feat and will cost some $$ both in terms of moving heavy machines and re-doing specific electrical things. I’d rather only do it once to a new space that will be somewhat permanent.

My goal is to build a new large shop on our property, but there has been serious talk between my wife and I of selling/moving in the next few years, so I will likely wait it out and work with what I have for now. Building 3 custom interior doors at the moment and it is always a bit of a challenge (spatially) working with parts/assembled doors of this scale in this space, but I make it work.

[Joe Calhoon]

Phillip, buying late model machinery used and keeping debt low is always a good business plan.
no experience with the SI 12 but I owned a SI 15 long stroke for a while and used a SI 15 short stroke in another shop. It’s a decent saw and heavier than the 12. The SI 12 looks pretty nice though. My favorite short stroke slider that I have used is the Altendorf TRK 45. It’s not a solid cast iron saw but heavy built and very functional. The later models have hydro tilt and raise.

I just spent the last 6 months working part time restoring a Martin T17 short stroke joinery saw. More for a hobby project (a terrible business plan). Knowing full well that could buy a brand new Martin, Altendorf or L’Invincibile for the same dollars if I counted my time! It’s a way better saw than any of the highly cost engineered new short stroke sliders produced now though.

[Jim Becker]

If you can actually find what you are looking for and in the condition you want it with the stuff you need, that would be great. The time frame of your actual need certainly plays into things, too. At the same time, new/newer machines are still pretty darn good. :)

[Kevin Jenness]

One thing I would add is that the sliding carriage ways are the heart of the saw and if heavily worn can make it worthless for precise work. The ways on our SI12 were v-shaped with balls riding in the v. The ways need to be oiled regularly to minimize wear, an often overlooked task in a busy shop. If the grooves worn by the balls are wider than 1/16" it is likely that the unit is clapped out and not economically repairable. I would not buy a slider without personal inspection of this detail unless from a trusted source.

As always, Joe has the goods on heavy iron. If you could find a used Martin or Altendorf in the size you want that would surely be a step up.

For myself, I managed to squeeze a 4' x 8' format saw into my shop. The utility of the 8'+ stroke for solid wood as well as sheet processing is not something I would give up easily. I often remove the extension table to save space, but when it is in place being able to rip up to 8' without removing the crosscut fence is a real plus compared to a short stroke saw. If you can, definitely keep the Tannewitz for long rips.

[Jared Sankovich]

One thing I would add is that the sliding carriage ways are the heart of the saw and if heavily worn can make it worthless for precise work. The ways on our SI12 were v-shaped with balls riding in the v. The ways need to be oiled regularly to minimize wear, an often overlooked task in a busy shop. If the grooves worn by the balls are wider than 1/16" it is likely that the unit is clapped out and not economically repairable. I would not buy a slider without personal inspection of this detail unless from a trusted source.

As always, Joe has the goods on heavy iron. If you could find a used Martin or Altendorf in the size you want that would surely be a step up.

For myself, I managed to squeeze a 4' x 8' format saw into my shop. The utility of the 8'+ stroke for solid wood as well as sheet processing is not something I would give up easily. I often remove the extension table to save space, but when it is in place being able to rip up to 8' without removing the crosscut fence is a real plus compared to a short stroke saw. If you can, definitely keep the Tannewitz for long rips.

Does it have solid or laminated ways? I think all the SCM ways I've seen were sold, but that doesn't mean much.

The laminated ways are easy enough to replace if worn, and I would think depending on the design, laminating a previous solid way as a repair would likely work.
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[Warren Lake]

are you focused on that model and what are the specs. The SI16SW has a good slider set up, 14" blades and can take to 16 inch no scoring. Most ive seen were 6.5 - 9 HP Then the SI16SF has the simpler slider that runs on a bar. Saw them at auctions. usually around 2k but remember one went over 3k

[Phillip Mitchell]

Warren, it’s the short stroke and heavy build that I’m after. SI12 - 12” blade, 50 something “ stroke, 4-6 HP, scoring, ~450kg, Manual controls. Looks like a scaled down SI16 best I can tell.I think the sweet spot for being able to crosscut ply and still not taking up nearly the entire shop with the stroke range would be a ~50-60” crosscut capacity. I have a relatively narrow space to fit said machine that must navigate between a block column to the right of the blade and a 20” bandsaw/the wall to the left. Of course I’m trying to get some of both worlds and be able to accurately crosscut long solid stock (up to something like a entry/passage door stile) as well as crosscut and dimension plywood on the same setup...proving to be spatially challenging to satisfy both of those criteria and I may not get there in the current space.

I think a full stroke saw (even 8’+) would just take up too much space lengthwise which would interfere with where my 20” planer lives as well as would likely not quite fit width wise if the extension sliding table/fence was any wider than what’s on the SI12 for example. That is the reason for the relatively narrow parameters, but I’m asking this here in case I’m missing something and should also add others saws to my short list.

Joe, thanks for the input. I’m not familiar enough with a T-17 to know how big of a footprint it actually needs, but went down a rabbit hole earlier on CWW forum and saw your beautiful restoration job. What a saw!

Jim, thanks for the input as always. I think I will need to keep my eyes peeled and play the waiting game for a bit, which has been no different than any of my other used machine acquisitions.

Kevin, thanks for the notes on the ways and tolerances. Definitely something I will keep with me when inspecting. The last thing you want is to go through the time, effort and expense of buying and moving a slider to have it be an expensive and inaccurate boat anchor. I would try to keep the Tannewitz as much as possible. I like it too much to give it up easily and it’s a fantastic ripping saw.

[Warren Lake]

THere are a number of models of those saws or least least different model numbers of the 12, 15 and 16 with different letters that followed. Ive seen them for years at auctions.

Likely they all weigh the same (1,300 lbs) without looking it up, some older ones like the Beige one below maybe more. In any of the shop auctions I saw the machines were plug and play. Reason is european shops 10-50-80 employees stuff was cared for. Here is one example of many. Mostly all were two tone green and different numbers and letters. have seen 9 HP on a number of them.

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[Brian Holcombe]

Phillip, from a guy who is in shops all the time, I must disagree with that statement. In my experience, shops who are serious about making a living are far better off buying a new machine. I don't mean this to sound disrespectful but EVERY customer I have ever met who gives the whole, "I'm just going to hold out for that perfect used machine" has one thing in common: They never find it. To the contrary, this mentality actually holds you back from business standpoint. No sales schtick: Just being honest. If someone wants a vintage machine because they want a vintage machine, that's one thing but making it a business plan to wait for the perfect used machine is a good way to not move forward professionally (who was that guy here who found his perfect used martin slider, then had basically a year-long thread about trying to actually get it running and usable? Didn't he "buy it for business"). Again, no disrespect intended. Just my observations. I hope this all makes sense.

Erik

Personally, I’d rather put a few evenings into a good used piece of equipment then buy new. Heck, I’ve had to fix all of the machines in shop at one point or another anyways.

Personally, I’m happy to do so becuase then I know what’s in the machine and I know how to break it down for repairs when the time comes. Everything needs repair work eventually..,


Patrick’s saw was a restoration, totally different math than a simple repair what’s broken, replace what’s worn, renovation. And that said, that saw is a workhorse now and for a heck of a lot cheaper than a new Martin. And no, he did not buy it for business. He ended up working from home because his home workshop was much more capable than the shop he was working in.

[Albert Lee]

Brian, I understand where you guys come from. the joy of repairing and restoring, but what about the time involved? do you need to have two panel saw because one is being worked on and the other one is a functional panel saw to do the daily business/cuts? I cant imagine having two panel saws in a workshop. the room it takes. etc.

[Jim Becker]

Albert, that's a very good point. There has to be a balance struck that's workable for the individual. Some folks can take on a major project like Patrick's that was previously referenced and others barely have time to uncrate a new tool and take off the cosmoline. Somewhere between those two things is where most people live. Some folks enjoy doing the work and have skilz, too...Brian's an example of that for sure. While I'm not personally enamored by working on machines, I'm able and willing to do enough of that to be "dangerous" if need be. I still like "shiny new" most of time it seems, however. But that's me. I think that the OP has a good idea about where his balance point is around the level of effort he's willing to put forth to get a beefy, older machine up and running for his shop at what's hopefully a reasonable cost...as well as the time frame he's willing to wait to find what he's looking for. I did ask him that earlier in the thread. If "the one" doesn't come along, then it will be interesting to see what the alternative happens to be. There are only so many "diamonds in the rough" out there when looking for a very specific make/model for sure.

[Phillip Mitchell]

There’s not always joy in repairing or restoring :D but there is typically satisfaction and knowledge gained in the process that only helps you as time goes on. I don’t love restoring machines and as such, typically only get a machine to the point of functioning properly / accurately and leave the cosmetics alone simply because I don’t have the time to put towards that end of the spectrum at this point in my life. I can certainly enjoy and appreciate it when others do that to their machines and want to share it.

Regarding the time it takes to find and acquire specific used machinery - I would say all of my machines (except my Oliver jointer, which was almost in my backyard and fell into my lap way more than any other machine...) have come to me through a process of assessing needed specs/level of quality/budget and waiting anywhere from a month to several months and in one case over a year for the right machine to pop up within the right parameters. I’m ok with this and not typically putting myself in a position where I will suffer greatly from not having the machine I seek. A sliding saw will help me, change my workflow and improve efficiency and accuracy, but I will get along just fine in the meantime if it takes several months to find a suitor. You may have gathered this, but I don’t buy many big ticket items that are new and typically spend considerable time and energy to maximize my budget with strategic used purchase. Different strokes for different folks.

This has been a good discussion so far on the differences of how folks approach purchases, business, etc.

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian, I understand where you guys come from. the joy of repairing and restoring, but what about the time involved? do you need to have two panel saw because one is being worked on and the other one is a functional panel saw to do the daily business/cuts? I cant imagine having two panel saws in a workshop. the room it takes. etc.

Albert, this comes down to the value of your time. If I can spend considerably less on
a good machine and turn it into a critical piece of machinery in few hours or days, and it saves me the same or more as my hourly rate than it is financially worth it.

It’s sometimes a wash, often works in my favor, and I get the machinery I want rather then settling for a new machine which doesn’t check all the boxes for me or costs a premium plus shipping/tax.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I have located an older SCM / Rockwell SI 15F sliding saw in what appears to be nice condition with all original fences, stops, etc for what seems to be a nice price, though I would need to get it freighted to me and it’s too far from me to go and inspect prior to purchase. I am awaiting videos of the saw running, table sliding, blade tilting, etc.

It looks identical to the photo Warren posted above, though I may post some photos of it here in this thread for reference / feedback. This saw a little larger / heavier / older than the SI 12, but does have a crosscut capacity of right around ~51” from what I’m told, which should be perfect for crosscutting a sheet stock. Doing some measuring and math now to see if its dimensions vary much from the SI 12, but I think it will squeeze in my space.

I own 2 other SCM L’invincibile machines (planer and shaper) from this same era, well mine are a little older than this saw, but they are built like tanks and I’m comfortable with this era of machine, as crude as it may seem compared to today’s circuit boarded machines.

I suppose I’m posting this to elicit any feedback specific to this saw and any potential major drawbacks in design or practical use. I work just as much or more with solid wood/joinery as sheet goods. Not sure if this saw has dado capability or not.

One thing I’m seeing is the sliding table is not right beside the blade but instead there is about 8” of fixed table between blade and sliding table. Not sure how much difference that makes in practice. I also see that for some reason the crosscut fence was cut at around 4” away from the blade, but I’m led to believe that the fence can loosened and slide left to right, which would obviously require a new measuring scale to be applied.

The previous owner had the saw in a location with 480V incoming, hence the transformers, but it is a 230V (3 phase) motor.

[David Kumm]

I believe that crosscut fence is similar to later models in that it is mounted with T nut in bottom of extrusion into an eccentric bushing in the outrigger. The rip fence is the same as what SCm used for the sliding table on their NPS shaper. I don't know if there was another type available. The distance to the blade is only a factor for short cut offs but that is no big deal.

While I understand that old machines can be a rabbit hole, I see enough posts about problems with new that I'm not convinced old is necessarily a lot more work than new. Unless you are buying the really high end stuff, the build difference is significant enough that working on old machines spoils you with the quality available. I recently bought a like new few year old Sharp Milling machine. 35K new. It sits next to the Rambaudi mill I have about half of my sharp cost in. The Sharp is one of their better machines and very nice but everything about it is cost reduced in comparison to the old Rambaudi. I feel the same way about my old saws. They are still better machines at 75 years old than anything I can buy for less than 15-20K. Makes it hard to enjoy the new stuff although I completely understand the benefit when in business. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

Phillip, the SI 15 will be more of a saw than the 12. Probably just a little bigger and heavier. My T17 has the sliding table away from the blade. There are probably more advantages to have it next to the blade but 2 good things about away from the blade is the ability to quickly install shaper cutters or groovers on the arbor and sometimes it’s nice to have a same level of table both sides of the blade. The sliding table raised slightly above the cast table can sometimes be a drawback on fine joinery cuts. As Dave mentions for shorter work next to the blade is better.

total restoration is involved and time consuming but a machine like you are looking at should not be difficult to get into service. At one time I was looking at rebuilt window machines from a company in Germany, Engelfried that specializes in this. He takes the old machines apart, cleaning, fixing and changing new bearings and sometimes updating electronics. I asked him why he didn’t paint the machines? He said it was not economically feasible and would put the cost up too high to be worthwhile.

[Joe Calhoon]

Looks like the sliding table is cast Iron. Another advantage over the typical aluminum sliding table.

[Jim Becker]

While I would personally prefer a wagon that's right up to the blade, if you are comfortable with the offset of the slider from the blade, that's certainly a "stout" looking tool!

[Warren Lake]

Im partial to two tone green vintage. Have a feeling beige is heavier than two tone green.

Good logic there Joe on the metal left of the blade. I have that and its fine. + My sliding table is not cast but rather metal not aluminum but not cast. Not sure how heavy cast would be if you had reason to take it on and off. I have had my sliding table on and off a few times but thinking it will always stay on.

ill check for photos of the two models memory they were S16SF or close to that.

[Mark e Kessler]

”sometimes it’s nice to have a same level of table both sides of the blade. The sliding table raised slightly above the cast table can sometimes be a drawback on fine joinery cuts. As Dave mentions for shorter work next to the blade is better”

Joe that’s a good point, although I can make it work I think I run into a scenario almost every project where having a little bit of table to the left of the blade would be benefit. Looks to be a good 6”, that might cause a little pain if you are doing smaller furniture pieces but am sure it’s workable

to

[David Kumm]

If the table away from the blade causes problems when doing some furniture work, find a hammond Trim o saw and convert it to wood. Doesn't take up much room and a wonderful little saw for fine work. Dave

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks for the replies; reassuring that I may have found a contender. I still have some due diligence to do, but it seems promising so far.

Having limited use on a sliding saw, how is having the table away from the blade with short pieces (8” or less?) different than the way a miter gauge might work? This is how I typically crosscut now if not using a shop built cross cut sled for one reason or another. Is the potential annoyance of that simply that the short stock is sliding over the fixed part of the table (against the crosscut fence) and not actually touching the sliding table or am I missing something?

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe that’s a good point, although I can make it work I think I run into a scenario almost every project where having a little bit of table to the left of the blade would be benefit. Looks to be a good 6”, that might cause a little pain if you are doing smaller furniture pieces but am sure it’s workable

to
Mark, one big advantage of slider next to the blade is the ability to use a double miter. This gets a lot of use on my full length slider and is my go to for any small angle work and small straight cuts. I do a lot of curve work and it’s great for joining curve moulding to straight. That always involves two angles and with the double miter it’s easy to go back and fourth between angles. If I ever downsize I think I could make a subtable for the T17 to use the double miter.
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And here is a example of where the slider next to blade is not so handy.
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[Albert Lee]

my first wide belt sander was this colour series, very heavily built on a steel frame, probably the thickest gauge of steel, I am yet to see a thicker frame!
I sold it because I needed a wider unit and double head, otherwise would have kept it.

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[Jacques Gagnon]

…not sure if this makes sense, but could some form of Fritz and Franz jig be adapted to make handling of small/short pieces easier?

Looks like a nice piece of equipment.

Regards,

J.

[Christopher Giles]

Philiip,
I bought my SI12 new in 1991 when I made the decision to go pro full-time. I felt it was an important upgrade to processing panel stock, which is central to my business. A few observations about the saw: It is heavy and well constructed. Once the miter fence was initially adjusted square, I have never had to readjust it. It has stayed perfectly square for the past 30 years, and that goes for the 45 degree setting as well. The aluminum sliding table is a better choice than cast iron, very strong, and the extrusion allows for a closer fit to the blade. You can rip on this saw, although I keep a 10" Jet for ripping and dado operations. Slider is right tilt, Jet is left tilt. I need both options at different times. The stops on my SI12 are very accurate and reliable, no need to alter or replace them. I have made a living with this saw for the past 30 years, and have never regretted the purchase. I believe it was $5800.00 at the time. I have found that the space required for the saw is secondary to the space I need for the stock being fed through it. I need 10' to the left of the blade, and 16' in front and behind the blade. I use 10' conveyors in front and behind the saw to manage the boards going through. I would be happy to help with any questions you may have about the saw.

[Mark e Kessler]

Thanks for the replies; reassuring that I may have found a contender. I still have some due diligence to do, but it seems promising so far.

Having limited use on a sliding saw, how is having the table away from the blade with short pieces (8” or less?) different than the way a miter gauge might work? This is how I typically crosscut now if not using a shop built cross cut sled for one reason or another. Is the potential annoyance of that simply that the short stock is sliding over the fixed part of the table (against the crosscut fence) and not actually touching the sliding table or am I missing something?

The slider portion will be slightly above the cast so for pieces that only bridge the slider portion you would be at a slight (very slight) angle which may or may not affect the end result you are looking for, might be awkward as well. I haven’t used one like that but would imagine if you piece was short where it only rode on the cast it would work if you were holding the piece tight to the fence, just won’t move as smooth potentially.

You could also build some type of bridge, something that would kinda look like a mini sled use on a cabinet saw, piece of ply with 2 returns on front and back to stiffen it, clamp it to the slide…may need to shim the bottom that rides the cast but might hang up a little depending on how well it is adjusted however you would be making short strokes so probably no big deal.

i have made ply fixtures to cut narrow parts like bridal joints, dovetails…
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disclosure- not Mac’s clamps…
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[Mark e Kessler]

Mark, one big advantage of slider next to the blade is the ability to use a double miter. This gets a lot of use on my full length slider and is my go to for any small angle work and small straight cuts. I do a lot of curve work and it’s great for joining curve moulding to straight. That always involves two angles and with the double miter it’s easy to go back and fourth between angles. If I ever downsize I think I could make a subtable for the T17 to use the

Joe, thanks for the picks. Would love to get the quadrant, i know you show the Martin here but is it difficult to put on and take off?

also i would love if my saw had the ability to put the xcut fence in the middle of the outrigger, I find I do a lot of small and medium size cuts and it’s always a kinda uncomfortable reach when the fence is in the forward position, i like it in the rear position (operator side) for the smaller cuts but I always find myself moving it to the forward position at some point, a middle position would be a good compromise I thought I saw a saw that could do this was it a Martin?

[Warren Lake]

If you look into those saws you will find a number of configurations and models. In the two tone green there is the slider bar model and that leaves you with table top left of the blade maybe 7 inches cant remember,. Then the full sliding mechanism those will come both right up to the blade, then some with table top left of the blade. Just will depend on what you find for sale. They have a lot of different model numbers or letters after numbers and those sliders that design goes back to invincible models. Not sure if he beige one you posted is but will look. Usually heavier and same still today with them having an Invincible line.

[Joe Calhoon]

[QUOTE=Joe Calhoon;3134309]Mark, one big advantage of slider next to the blade is the ability to use a double miter. This gets a lot of use on my full length slider and is my go to for any small angle work and small straight cuts. I do a lot of curve work and it’s great for joining curve moulding to straight. That always involves two angles and with the double miter it’s easy to go back and fourth between angles. If I ever downsize I think I could make a subtable for the T17 to use the

Joe, thanks for the picks. Would love to get the quadrant, i know you show the Martin here but is it difficult to put on and take off?

also i would love if my saw had the ability to put the xcut fence in the middle of the outrigger, I find I do a lot of small and medium size cuts and it’s always a kinda uncomfortable reach when the fence is in the forward position, i like it in the rear position (operator side) for the smaller cuts but I always find myself moving it to the forward position at some point, a middle position would be a good compromise I thought I saw a saw that could do this was it a Martin?

Mark,
the double miter comes on and off easy. Just a simple lever clamp under. These are all pretty similar from the different mfgs. Just want to make sure you get one specific to your saw. They are spendy, if you don’t use one a lot Guido Henn shows how to make one in his book on sliders.
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[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks for the replies; reassuring that I may have found a contender. I still have some due diligence to do, but it seems promising so far.

Having limited use on a sliding saw, how is having the table away from the blade with short pieces (8” or less?) different than the way a miter gauge might work? This is how I typically crosscut now if not using a shop built cross cut sled for one reason or another. Is the potential annoyance of that simply that the short stock is sliding over the fixed part of the table (against the crosscut fence) and not actually touching the sliding table or am I missing something?

Phillip,
The slider next to the blade is better in this respect but I wouldn’t let it be a deal breaker. In your case finding a used saw with all the parts and in decent condition is the main thing.
Cutting short pieces is better than with a miter guage because of the rigidity of the cross fence. I made half of a F&F for the T17. Fence has to be in the front position to use it.
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[Matthew Hills]

Phillip,
The slider next to the blade is better in this respect but I wouldn’t let it be a deal breaker

I'd think a slider like this would still be pretty useful for working with sheet goods and crosscuts.
Are you giving up the ability to rip boards with the slider? (either a straight-line rip or a rip-to-width with a f&f jig)

Matt

[Phillip Mitchell]

I'd think a slider like this would still be pretty useful for working with sheet goods and crosscuts.
Are you giving up the ability to rip boards with the slider? (either a straight-line rip or a rip-to-width with a f&f jig)

Matt

I would be keeping my Tannewitz Model U for ripping and hopefully I can track down a dado arbor for it with some luck and patience. It has a beautiful 24” rack and pinion rip fence and I would try to nest it back to back with the fixed table portion of this sliding saw.

[Joe Calhoon]

I'd think a slider like this would still be pretty useful for working with sheet goods and crosscuts.
Are you giving up the ability to rip boards with the slider? (either a straight-line rip or a rip-to-width with a f&f jig)

Matt
Hi Matt
very usefull for ripping and crosscuting. Limited by the short stroke for F&F. If this ever becomes my only saw I would straight line on it using the old Tage Frid style jig. For building cabinets from plywood I would probably do the dust cut with a track saw then proceed ripping and crosscuting on the saw.

[Ronald Blue]

There is an SI15 in my general area and for all I know it might be the one you are looking at. Cedar Falls Iowa? Price listed is $2250. Just throwing this out there. On Waterloo Iowa CL.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks Ronald. That is not the one I’m looking at, but does look reasonably complete and decent condition.

The one I located (and pictured on the previous page) is outside of Boston / Metro West. If anyone reading this happens to be in the Boston area and willing to check the saw out for me in person, I would be grateful and offer compensation for your troubles. I’ve reached out to a couple local folks directly but no takers yet. I may start a thread asking for potential help - is that allowed, Jim and if so, where would be the ideal place to post it?

[Ronald Blue]

There is a fellow creeker in this area and he might be willing to have a look if you needed him to. I've met him and had a business transaction with him. He's probably 30 minutes away. I'm probably a solid 3 hours away so not much help.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I came across this thread on OWWM from several years back and it gave me a bit of pause...anybody have anything to say or add regarding these findings? Wondering is this affliction is universal or only specific to saws with overly worn bearings and how to remedy the problem if the sliding table bearings are unobtanium.

https://owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=127894&start=30

Some excerpts for those not wanting to click a link:

——————



I've been trying to get the sliding table adjusted properly. I have the manual and have been following the directions but am having a heck of a time getting consistent travel along the entire length of the slider. Because this is not a new saw, I'm worried something might be damaged. Hopefully, it's just my incompetence. Any hints?

No worries, that saw has a design flaw in the bearing setup. There needs to be an extra set of bearings for the table to travel on, so when the slider is pulled to either extreme, there is excessive slop in the table.
...
I'm just a noob with table saws in general, let alone sliders, but that seems like a pretty major design flaw. Isn't one of the big advantages of the style to be able to make very accurate, repeatable cross-cuts? Is there any was to do a fix or work-around? Or is it not such a big deal?
...
You'd think SCMi would've noticed that, but they may have missed it. I think making sure all your bearings are aligned properly on all axes should minimalize the issue. If you keep it riding on all three bearings, you will be fine, it's the extremes that cause problems.
...
I've got most of the slop out by very carefully aligning the bearings. Just a bit at the extremes as Sal mentioned.

The slider is parallel to the main table but the main and miter slot are not parallel to the blade. I've aligned a table with blade on a Unisaw but of course it's much lighter. Should I use the same technique (loosen bolts, tap/pound table into parallel with blade)

[Mark e Kessler]

I came across this thread on OWWM from several years back and it gave me a bit of pause...anybody have anything to say or add regarding these findings? Wondering is this affliction is universal or only specific to saws with overly worn bearings and how to remedy the problem if the sliding table bearings are unobtanium.

https://owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=127894&start=30

Some excerpts for those not wanting to click a link:

——————

I've been trying to get the sliding table adjusted properly. I have the manual and have been following the directions but am having a heck of a time getting consistent travel along the entire length of the slider. Because this is not a new saw, I'm worried something might be damaged. Hopefully, it's just my incompetence. Any hints?

No worries, that saw has a design flaw in the bearing setup. There needs to be an extra set of bearings for the table to travel on, so when the slider is pulled to either extreme, there is excessive slop in the table.
...
I'm just a noob with table saws in general, let alone sliders, but that seems like a pretty major design flaw. Isn't one of the big advantages of the style





So that’s the risk in buying an old slider like this, I am sure there are a few out there that are fine but most of those sliders were used in commercial shops not by a hobbyist so they need to be checked over. If I was considering one of these old saws I would need to look at it in person which would eliminate a lot of concern.
Totally not against old equipment just would need to inspect in person. As fate would have it I ended up with new after having equipment 30ish years leftover from my business. Because of the issues i had with my k700 I ended up with the k940, if I had known I was going to spend that much money i would have been looking at used Martin like joes t17 or perhaps an Altendorf…

As far as the slider goes, if the parts are no longer available then you will need to have them fabricated (obviously), a quick check of what’s going on with the slide could be setting up a dial gauge on the cast and reference off the slide and moving it fore and aft to see the deviation. There could be a challenge in that that being an old saw the edge of the slider that you would be referencing off of may be chewed, banged up in that case maybe a straight edge of some sort clamped to the table or the t-slot in the top (however the t-slot is probably not precision milled but could still give you an indication of what is going on) I would also wipe the ways down because it’s one of the things most don’t do and might not be as bad as it sounds without cleaning.

I don’t know about ball bearing sliders but on the older Altendorfs with the phenolic ways you could see a deviation in a short area it it was used mostly for narrow pieces for example. Your not looking at old altendorfs but i was as there was one local and I personally would not by one with phenolic ways without personally checking it like I described above, my understanding is that it is that the phenolic ways are not field replaceable to any degree of accuracy and for me the whole point of a slider (well on anyways) is for it to be dead nuts…. i think at one point you were able to send the slider extrusion back to Germany for a rebuild - imagine the cost for that!

[David Kumm]

In my experience, lateral play in old cast iron sliders is the weak link in some machines. I don't know what the SI15 system is but bearings that travel some with the table seem to hold alignment better than stationary bearings where one ceases to be engaged at either end. The upside is that I have not noticed that to be as big a problem as I expected in use. I think the mass of the table tends to keep it tracking if the bearings are aligned so there is no hitch when the outer ones are engaged.

An alternative since you have a second saw for ripping is an 80" slider. they are unloved ( rightfully so ) as they are inconvenient as a stand alone machine so they tend to be better priced on the used market. I have a Knapp 80" and while it is my least favorite size, I use it as a short stroke with my other saws and leave the crosscut fence on. The only thing it lacks vs the 50" is you lose some space. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

No experience on the old cast iron patternmakers sliders, but I had heard the same thing about play in the tables. How is the Robinson in that respect Dave? I also prefer the Euro fences that slide fore and aft. I’m sure the rack and pinion fences are stout but seem unhandy for woodworking. The ball bearing fence on the T17 is probably the best feature of this saw.
The T17 has top and bottom V ways with bearings with excentric adjustment so a saw or shaper with this type beam should last indefinitely. Shapers now have linear bearings here and more precise but probably not the longevity of the old type. The downside of the T17 type on sliding saws is the beam can be adjusted back and fourth to get the full stroke of the table or to have a shorter stroke with no protrusion of the beam. This gives flexibility but the beam is so heavy it’s difficult to move singlehanded. I made a fixture for my pallet jack to adjust it but still unhandy. If you are cutting much sheet goods the fixed beam table like on the SCM and Altendorf would be better. In Later years Martin, Panhans and some of the others got away from the beam on sliding saws.

[David Kumm]

Of my three old iron sliders, the Robinson has the best system although it doesn't use bearings. I put an AL extrusion on my old saws to mimic the newer rip fence design. The fence on the whitney is most stout and I'm used to moving it into the proper holes so no big deal. Works well with a feeder as the pressure is directed between the supports. The PK and Robinson depend on a single T slot for the rip fence so the keys need to be just right.462241462242462243 Dave

[Ronald Blue]

Did you settle on a saw? There is a 12" that is on the Chicago CL currently.

[Albert Lee]

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/marketplace/building-renovation/tools/power-tools/saws/listing/3225478642?bof=RpIyGdLS

This came up locally... looks in great condition. starting bid $700 USD.

Only if I had the space

[Phillip Mitchell]

Ronald, thanks for updating the thread. I bought the SI-15F that is pictured earlier in this thread. It arrived unscathed via freight this afternoon at a local shop close by that I have occasional forklift / storage access to. I was planning on hauling it home and moving it on today, but the tropical storm rains have overtaken us and it will have to wait for a clear day.

I did get the chance to look the saw over a bit this afternoon after it arrived. I’ve seen videos of it under power but not yet fired it up myself. There does not seem to be any appreciable slop in the tables even at either extreme of the stroke. Everything glides well and feels tight side to side. There is a a good bit of mass and momentum accompanying the cast iron sliding table.

I will post some photos and update once I get the saw moved into my shop and in place.

I just looked at the saw on the Chicago CL and it looks to be in very nice condition and a reasonable price, though I paid roughly half of that asking price for this SI-15F which helps the cause.

[Ronald Blue]

Congratulations on your acquisition. I look forward to the photos as you update us.

[Jim Becker]

Congrats, Phillip! 'Looking forward to you getting that beast up and running!