Sliding Table Saw - Slider Toe Out - Please Explain

[Matt Culik]

I purchased a used Grizzly G0623X that needs adjusting. This is my first slider. I've got the tools necessary to get it dialed in (dial indicators, machinist's level, etc.) and have been reading and watching a lot of how-tos online. But there's one thing that is REALLY confusing me - TOE OUT.

From what I've read and watched, folks seem to set sliders to 0.001" - 0.002" of toe out across the face of the blade - so a distance of about 9" in my case. The Grizzly G0623X is small as far as sliders go, and has a slider capacity of about 5', so 0.001" across the blade equates to about 0.007" of total toe out.

Here's where I'm getting confused... If the slider is toed out, and the wood is "fixed" to the slider, doesn't that mean the wood is also toeing out? Which means the cut won't (technically) be square?

I drew what I think is happening in CAD, and even at "extreme" toe out values over the whole 5', the resulting angle is VERY, VERY close to square (89.95 deg). So, I'm guessing that what I think is happening mechanically is correct, but it's so minor it doesn't matter in real life. Can anyone confirm this?

The reason I'm second guessing this is primarily because I watched a guy on YouTube with a really nice Martin slider show that he had 0.002" of toe out over his 12" or 14" blade, and then do the five-cut test. His result was perfect to the hundredth of a millimeter over a piece that appeared to be about 2' long, so equivalent to 8' because of how the five-cut test compounds error. Now, he didn't spin the saw blade when he did the toe out measurement and he added a caption to the video about hitting an expansion slot in the blade, so maybe his slider is PERFECTLY parallel to his blade and it was a bad test. But 0.002" across a 12" blade = 0.016" over 8' = 0.41 mm, which surely would have been detected on his digital calipers. It just seems highly unlikely he'd be able to achieve such a perfect result IF my thinking about the wood also toeing out is correct. Hence my confusion and the question...

Here's the video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNUvF3q2IJk
Toe out measurement at 08:40
Results at 19:30

Thanks in advance!

[johnny means]

The cut line is parallel to the direction of the slider. It has nothing to do with the direction of the blade. Imagine if the cutter were a hot wire. The squareness of your cut depends on how square your crosscut fence is to the movement of the slider. Your blade only really needs to be aligned enough to not cause binding against the blade body. This parameter will vary between blades, so It's best to shoot for as close to perfect as you can get. Personally, I think toe out is a mistake that needs to be put to rest. Many people carry the practice over from cabinet saws, where it makes some sense, as it prevents binding between the fence and the blade. It makes a whole lot less sense when you start cutting on both sides of the blade.

[Mark e Kessler]

You need toe out on the slider for the same reason you need it on the rip fence, so the trailing edge of the board do get cut twice for lack of a better description, and yes it’s so little it doesn’t matter.

I think you know this part but…Raise the blade all the way up, mark an x right behind a gullet, zero to that, move slider with gauge to the other end of saw blade, rotate blade measure at x…

Then square your fence and you are golden, I’d have to check but pretty sure mind is dead nuts over 6’. Edit, just checked a post that I did on Instagram, was 0.0025 over 4.5 ft on my first attempt then tweaked it a bit and got 0.0000…. I left it at that, bet if I did again without adjustments I wouldn’t get that, hell probably never in a million years…

also before you do that have you checked to make sure the slider is coplaner to the cast top and is above the cast the whole length? I would do that first…

[Kevin Jenness]

I agree with Johnny on the need for toeout. I have the table travel and the rip fence parallel to the plane of the blade.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

The cut line is parallel to the direction of the slider. It has nothing to do with the direction of the blade. Imagine if the cutter were a hot wire. The squareness of your cut depends on how square your crosscut fence is to the movement of the slider. Your blade only really needs to be aligned enough to not cause binding against the blade body. This parameter will vary between blades, so It's best to shoot for as close to perfect as you can get. Personally, I think toe out is a mistake that needs to be put to rest. Many people carry the practice over from cabinet saws, where it makes some sense, as it prevents binding between the fence and the blade. It makes a whole lot less sense when you start cutting on both sides of the blade.

I agree completely, except that I'll go further and say I don't think it makes any sense what so ever on a cabinet saw either. This old myth needs put to rest.

[Mark e Kessler]

It may be an old myth but the reality is either parallel or toe out can work, I have had it both ways in the past 30 years and currently prefer toe out…

[Bobby Robbinett]

I tried it both ways on my other cabinet saw. I personally prefer no toe out on my cabinet saw as I get perfect cuts and so far haven’t had any issues with the wood binding or causing any issues due to no toe out. I have had my cabinet saw setup like this for many years. I only recently got a slider and it has toe out on the sliding carriage but I can’t figure out how to adjust it and it’s driving me nuts. LoL. I might start a separate thread on this matter. My slider is a Griggio sc3200b which is I believe identical to a Holzher 1243 and probably many other brands as it is a common design. If anybody knows how to adjust this on my saw please post up.

[Steve Rowe]

Matt,
I am the guy that made that video and that blade is a 12" (300mm) blade. Toe-out is necessary on the sliding table trajectory since we can seldom adjust things to where they are perfect and blades can vary so you don't want to have to check this every time. The cut is made at the leading edge of the blade and toe-out is intentionally built in to avoid cutting by the trailing edge of the blade. While there are some safety aspects of this, it is especially important for quality of cut in melamine sheet goods and veneers. The squareness of cut is determined by the crosscut fence square to the trajectory of the sliding table. The logic is the same for toe-out of a rip fence.

I have used a slider for the past 17 years and the only problem I have ever noted with toe=out setup is when I use the sliding table in combination with the rip fence pulled back and used as a gage stop to cut thin strips for edgebanding on the offcut side as it will generate a very slight taper over the length of the strip. The reason for this is the sliding table trajectory and rip fence both have toe-out but in opposite directions. To compensate for this I typically use a piece of painters tape on the rip fence to essentially eliminate the toe-out on that side.

David Best recently posted a video on adjusting the sliding table on a Felder saw that may also provide some useful insights. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s2a02XI3BQ

Steve

[Kevin Jenness]

" toe-out is intentionally built in to avoid cutting by the trailing edge of the blade"

Toe-out on the sliding carriage will necessarily induce cutting by the trailing edge of the blade on the offcut, so unless you recut that piece the problem remains.

" the only problem I have ever noted with toe=out setup is when I use the sliding table in combination with the rip fence pulled back and used as a gage stop"

That's another reason for eliminating toe-out. If you think you need toe-out go for it, but I have had no problems without it.

[Mark e Kessler]

If you set it perfectly parallel and no other variables are introduced then yea it can work, even if you get a little recut or burn/rub on occasion is it really a problem? nope not generally. If one has their saw set “parallel” and never ever, ever…ever… has the recut/burn/rub then I would be checking my measuring methods/equipment because if it never occurs you are more likely to be toe out…

one of the other issues i found with “parallel” for me on the Rip fence (which I typically would want very close if not parallel) is that my extrusion is not perfectly straight, it actually has a slight hook in it so depending on where i set the extrusion (forward/back) i am either toe in, zero, tow out… so if you have an aluminum extrusion I would check it in multiple spots as I would imagine it’s fairly common for the extrusions to not be perfectly “parallel”, I marked mine so i know if i am +,-,0…

[Warren Lake]

what you do and how do you work.

Ive rammed tons of solid through saws where set up a few thou heal clearance would make no difference. Ideally rough material was jointed one edge before the rough rip but often skipped that and ripped crown to the fence leaving extra that was needed plus any more for tension release. I had no splitter so enough times material was closing on the heal of the blade. Even if I had jointed that stuff as I should have before ripping theres still a tension release on lots of it. There goes your clearance.

Most people use a splitter or riving knife so eliminate most of the heal pinching that could occur. You can set it up as accurate as you want but the material and how you work will have dynamics. I was on cabinet saws and didnt have the benefit to pull a fence back. A board could have been clamped on the fence as well but never did that just put the material through the saw.

Mark makes a good point. I bet many fences are not truly straight, my besemeiyer at least on the rip saw is not straight. The SCM was pretty close to bang on have to check it again.

OP there have to be adjustments on your saw. On the SCM there are several adjustments more than enough. Its just getting it dialed in. You should be able to find parrallel on your slider even with out a dial just run the saw and make a cut and see if you are rubbing on the heal of the blade when you get there or not that will as a start show you how you are in relation to the blade. Then you can square the back or front fence after that. Your ear can tell you alot and its what you saw is doing rather than a dial on a blade that is likely not even flat.

[Matt Culik]

Thanks, everyone! Great info, and the David Best video was also very helpful!

[Zach Macklin]

Good luck dialing that saw in to that level of precision.

[Mark e Kessler]

Adjusting toe out, in or parallel is simple, leveling the slider to the cast is where it becomes a difficult potentially tail chasing “i’m gona jump off a cliff” kind of event…lol

[Gabriel Marusic]

I recently adjusted the toe out and the slider height on my hammer and while I'm nowhere near perfect, it's better than it came from the factory. I learned the hard way that when I tightened up my slider in place those turns on the adjustment slightly moved the toe out on the slider. It was a painful experience with all the back and forth dialing it in to have the first thing I set bounce out at the end. I had multiple iterations of this over the course of a week and I ended up taking it back to scratch and loosening everything. I settled somewhere in between what I started with and what I hoped for.

[Bobby Robbinett]

I am also curious as to how you guys are measuring the toe out or travel on your sliders? A dial indicator on the cast iron to the right of the carriage or?

[Mark e Kessler]

I am also curious as to how you guys are measuring the toe out or travel on your sliders? A dial indicator on the cast iron to the right of the carriage or?

i use a oneway holder and a cheapo dial gauge, not shown but i clamp it to the table as well but you don’t need to do that if you can hold it steady. I have also used the indicator holder but you could just use a wood block or nothing as long as the dial gauge doesn’t move. I will say that the oneway holder is awesome and has many uses…

https://www.instagram.com/kessler_woodworks/?hl=en

461933

also used on the rip
461935

[Mark e Kessler]

I recently adjusted the toe out and the slider height on my hammer and while I'm nowhere near perfect, it's better than it came from the factory. I learned the hard way that when I tightened up my slider in place those turns on the adjustment slightly moved the toe out on the slider. It was a painful experience with all the back and forth dialing it in to have the first thing I set bounce out at the end. I had multiple iterations of this over the course of a week and I ended up taking it back to scratch and loosening everything. I settled somewhere in between what I started with and what I hoped for.


Glad to see you took it on, everyone wants to believe the sliders can be used as delivered and in most cases they can but they all benefit from good tweaking here and there depending on the user preference. I always recommend, checking and recording all measurements on install, checking cast flatness and twist (this is critical, if it has a twist you will be chasing your tail trying to dial in the slide), blade squareness to the top, slide coplanar to the cast (so you are 90deg on both sides of the blade, and other reasons..) what the toe out is, ect. and comparing the measurements to the manufactures spec and as long as it is close to and the slide is not below the cast just use it for awhile to determine if anything needs to be done at all (it will if you want to optimize it). Note: In the case of Felder/Hammer before any adjustments are made under warranty, you need to call/place a service ticket and get it on record that way if things go south you will be covered...

Yes, it is a bit tricky but once you wrap your head around it it becomes more clear what is going on, I level/make co-planer on 3 points then systematically tighten the others, for me I found if it moves too much after tightening 2-3 other points I just start over by loosening everything just like you did.

You stopped at a logical point, you will never get it exact and that's ok, use it for awhile and see how it goes. I like my table 6-8 thou above the cast leaning to the 8 thou, I ended up with 6-9 thou and the last foot or so jumped to I think around 0.015, I called that good - I have a 9ft slide and unless I need a perfect depth of cut on a dado past 8' it doesn't matter what is most important to me is that the slide is coplaner to the cast....


Here is a quick run down, I am sure there will be naysayers but it only takes 1/2 hour to do the first four steps which is important if you are going to adjust the slide, the more info you have the less you will be chasing your tail.

1. Get the saw reasonably level, I just use a carpenters level so the slide stays put wherever I put it.
2. Check flatness of cast table, there will probably be a dip in the center, left of center, Felder has an adjustment for that inside the cabinet (not sure on the Hammer)
a. you may not be able to get it all out, mine has a slight dip close to blade and this is on a 900 series - this is ok, we are cutting wood not machining metal.
3. Check for twist, more than likely it's good enough mine was but I have heard of others that were not
b. This is important because if for example your cast table is high/low in one corner you will be chasing your measurements when trying to adjust the height. if it has a twist doesn't necessarily mean you need to adjust it, could be that it just keeps you from going nuts when you are adjusting the slide
4. Adjust blade 90 deg to Cast
5. Adjust slide to preferred height above cast AND coplanar to cast (use three dial gauges, you will thank me later :))
a. depending on slider, the toe out at the same time, I bumped mine way out while I was adjusting and didn't discover until I nailed the height then had to loosen all the bolts....
6. Adjust outrigger, height, coplanar, tracking...
7. Square fence

Did I miss anything? probably...lol

[Gabriel Marusic]

Glad to see you took it on, everyone wants to believe the sliders can be used as delivered and in most cases they can but they all benefit from good tweaking here and there depending on the user preference. I always recommend, checking and recording all measurements on install, checking cast flatness and twist (this is critical, if it has a twist you will be chasing your tail trying to dial in the slide), blade squareness to the top, slide coplanar to the cast (so you are 90deg on both sides of the blade, and other reasons..) what the toe out is, ect. and comparing the measurements to the manufactures spec and as long as it is close to and the slide is not below the cast just use it for awhile to determine if anything needs to be done at all (it will if you want to optimize it). Note: In the case of Felder/Hammer before any adjustments are made under warranty, you need to call/place a service ticket and get it on record that way if things go south you will be covered...

Yes, it is a bit tricky but once you wrap your head around it it becomes more clear what is going on, I level/make co-planer on 3 points then systematically tighten the others, for me I found if it moves too much after tightening 2-3 other points I just start over by loosening everything just like you did.

You stopped at a logical point, you will never get it exact and that's ok, use it for awhile and see how it goes. I like my table 6-8 thou above the cast leaning to the 8 thou, I ended up with 6-9 thou and the last foot or so jumped to I think around 0.015, I called that good - I have a 9ft slide and unless I need a perfect depth of cut on a dado past 8' it doesn't matter what is most important to me is that the slide is coplaner to the cast....


Here is a quick run down, I am sure there will be naysayers but it only takes 1/2 hour to do the first four steps which is important if you are going to adjust the slide, the more info you have the less you will be chasing your tail.

1. Get the saw reasonably level, I just use a carpenters level so the slide stays put wherever I put it.
2. Check flatness of cast table, there will probably be a dip in the center, left of center, Felder has an adjustment for that inside the cabinet (not sure on the Hammer)
a. you may not be able to get it all out, mine has a slight dip close to blade and this is on a 900 series - this is ok, we are cutting wood not machining metal.
3. Check for twist, more than likely it's good enough mine was but I have heard of others that were not
b. This is important because if for example your cast table is high/low in one corner you will be chasing your measurements when trying to adjust the height. if it has a twist doesn't necessarily mean you need to adjust it, could be that it just keeps you from going nuts when you are adjusting the slide
4. Adjust blade 90 deg to Cast
5. Adjust slide to preferred height above cast AND coplanar to cast (use three dial gauges, you will thank me later :))
a. depending on slider, the toe out at the same time, I bumped mine way out while I was adjusting and didn't discover until I nailed the height then had to loosen all the bolts....
6. Adjust outrigger, height, coplanar, tracking...
7. Square fence

Did I miss anything? probably...lol

Thanks Mark. This is incredibly helpful. Your flow is pretty much what I followed in terms of setting it up. How close are you getting with dialing in twist? I'm using a Starrett 98-12 machinist level which is a bit more accurate than a contractor's level but a far cry from something like say the 199.

Are there any recommendations on the sequence of bolts to adjust when raising and lowering the slider as well as the slider position?

[Warren Lake]

where does the twist come from, I can see non flat from constant use over years and or maybe some sag. Ive seen low on shapers from constant wear from using power feeds. Near as I could tell I could not put any twist in the saw (SCM) with the base being so rigid.

[Mark e Kessler]

where does the twist come from, I can see non flat from constant use over years and or maybe some sag. Ive seen low on shapers from constant wear from using power feeds. Near as I could tell I could not put any twist in the saw (SCM) with the base being so rigid.

The twist would come from the attachment to the base, in my case bolt in each corner. Highly unlikely at least in a new saw that it is out but a good thing to check because it will put the measurements you get when adjusting the slider into context. Mine is a little low, can’t remember how much but when i was adjusting I kept that in mind knowing that what ever measurement I was reading it was actually a little lower…

Pic attached - one of my adj bolts.

461986

[Warren Lake]

ILl have to look at it again, I cant see it being possible the top is thick and the base is very rigid. Not there yet but have to get to it again i was getting it on track and you are right there are many dynamics. This one has a bar, the bar has wear as its gone many cycles. I put new bearings timken which was cheap but the bar is still low. If my tool and die maker friend still had his shop id trust him to have flipped the bar to a new surface end to end and re drill it all. Might be worth trying to find someone. Last CNC shop I tried could not even make an accurate spacer.

[Mark e Kessler]

Thanks Mark. This is incredibly helpful. Your flow is pretty much what I followed in terms of setting it up. How close are you getting with dialing in twist? I'm using a Starrett 98-12 machinist level which is a bit more accurate than a contractor's level but a far cry from something like say the 199.

Are there any recommendations on the sequence of bolts to adjust when raising and lowering the slider as well as the slider position?

As far as levels go for checking twist I would think you would need something that resolves to 0.001, i used a 199 that I borrowed from work but is complete overkill and almost frustrating to use, I think the 98-12 is 0.005” not really enough for the twist check but more than enough for everything else.
I think there is a import one out there for under $100 but unless you have other needs for it probably not worth buying, more than likely it’s close enough.

And as far as the adjustment sequence, the only one I really follow regular is the initial height adjustment which is
1. loosen all the upper bolts
2. Loosen all the lower bolts except 3, the 2 that align with the infeed/outfeed of cast and one across from the 2. The two next to the cast adjust the height and the one pivots the table so it is coplanar to cast.
----Edit, oops have it a little flip flopped, on #1 - loosen all but 3, the three I talk about in step #2....
3. Adjust table to desired height while maintaining coplanar, also this is with the slider position centered and forward/back maybe 20”
4. Once you are good with #3 i then snug up all the bottom nuts and top nuts hand tight, light touch.
5. Then I just go for it, a little at a time on the top nut, and i mean a little.

it’s a good idea to know where the bearing cage is in relation to where the slider is, if you peak in there you can see it. But in general when the slide is centered the bearing cage is close to the center, when pulled all the way back, its close to front of the cast, same goes for forward. Kinda obvious but it is the bearing cage that is holding your position if that makes any sense

hope that helps!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I am also curious as to how you guys are measuring the toe out or travel on your sliders? A dial indicator on the cast iron to the right of the carriage or?

It's an excuse to break out the fun measuring stuff, but really you can do it by clamping a board to the carriage and making a cut. If the cut contacts the leading edge of the blade, but not the trailing (or vice versa), you know you have toe in/out. Turn the blade by hand with the test board along side of it and you can also see and measure arbor wobble. Use a feeler gauge if you want to quantify it. This test process is actually easier on a slider than a cabinet saw. The adjustment to correct though, that is a whole level harder.

[Joe Calhoon]

Free cut on the slider can be checked easily by raising the blade to max height and cutting a 15” or so piece of MDF or similar. Listen to the noise the blade makes when cutting and as the blade cuts the last part that noise will go away. Burning or black marks on the cut piece will also indicate no toe out or possibly out the wrong way.

I don’t know what other mfgs Recommend but Martin says 0.1mm over one meter of travel. Or about .004 inch. That’s very slight. And about the same for the rip fence. My T72 came set like that from the factory and I have never needed to touch it. I think it is difficult to check this off the blade with a dial indicator. There is so many variables and distortion with blades. I am in the process of fine tuning my newly restored T17 joinery saw and going to try adjusting that using a feeler gauge.

here are some of the tools Martin uses in the factory to adjust sliders.
462009

[Erik Loza]

Our techs use dial indicators to set free-cut. As Joe mentioned, we are talking thousands of an inch over the full slider travel. The riving knife will tell you.

Erik