Roughing Tools (Gouges) and 40-40 Grind?

[Allen Mattsen]

What are your favorite tools for roughing bowls?

I'm without a large bandsaw at present and am considering ideas on how to best rough out larger bowls, etc.

I have 3/8, 1/2 and 5/8" bowl gouges. I'm interested in learning the 40/40 grind and techniques and wonder what the best tools are to add to my growing arsenal.

I'm thinking of getting another 5/8 Thompson, this time V-fluted for a 40/40 grind. My current 5/8" is a Jaimeson w/ Ellsworth grind.

What about a 3/4" bowl gouge? I wonder about the flute shape and grind ideal for the 3/4 if it's NOT a bottom feeder but used primarily for roughing out-of-round, more difficult material on my Laguna 2436.

I've only been turning since January, so go easy 😅

[Brian Deakin]

You may find the following video of Stuart Batty demonstrating 40/40 grind useful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhlMQr7Hk0k&ab_channel=DeniseSawyer

I would also suggest watching Stuarts videos on YouTube

[Jeffrey J Smith]

for what its worth, I'd suggest roughing with the Ellsworth grind is the way I'd go. It can take a huge shaving, getting the blank through the roughing process with a minimum of fuss. Starting from a blank with the corners lopped off with the chainsaw is an adventure at times, but goes pretty quickly to a more balanced form. Watch one of Lyle Jamieson's videos on roughing out.

I've been experimenting with the 40/40 grind and find it useful once the blank is round and pretty well balanced but still rely on the swept back grinds for most of the hogging off. If I had more experience with the 40/40 I might feel differently, but I've been doing it this way for nearly two decades now and it works for me. Old habits die hard...

I find the Thompson 5/8" Jamieson gouge to be just about the perfect roughing tool. The parabolic flute takes the Ellsworth grind well and its stout enough to do most of the work of a 3/4" gouge while small enough to manipulate nearly as well as a 1/2" gouge.

[roger wiegand]

You can waste a lot of wood in a hurry with either the 40/40 or the Ellsworth. I think the 40/40 is a little faster and easier for hogging off big roughing cuts, but we're not talking more than a couple minutes on a big blank.

I knock the corners off with a chain saw and then mount on the lathe, I haven't found the extra band saw rounding step to be either faster or easier.

[Edward Weber]

I'd go with the 5/8" gouge regardless of grind. The larger flute leaves more room for chips and debris to be removed quickly. A 3/4" would work but is usually a bit heavy and they just don't seem to get as much all around use, a 5/8" is more of a sweet spot.
The 40/40/ grind works for SB but it's not the be all end all of grind profiles.
If the primary job for this tool is roughing, develop your own grind that suits you. Your body size, your handle position, your method of work etc, not what someone else tells you is the right grind.
JMHO

[Reed Gray]

Well, being an oddball, I prefer a 1 inch Big Ugly tool, which is a scraper with a hard metal silver soldered on the end. Traditional for the Oregon Coastal myrtlewood turners. If I am going to use a gouge, I use the 5/8, either Thompson or D Way. I do have one 3/4 inch D Way gouge, and didn't like it. I don't use the swept back gouges at all any more. I replaced them with the 40/40 and several different BOB (bottom of bowl) tools.

As for taking off huge shavings, it can be done if you have the skills, sharp tools, and the horse power to drive your bowl blank through all that wood. The swept back gouges can pull off a very wide shaving. The 40/40 can't pull off as wide of a shaving as a swept back, but it can pull off a thicker shaving. With my Big Ugly tool, I can pull off wide or narrow shavings depending on what I am doing with it.

I have a bunch of bowl turning videos up on You Tube. Scary Scrapers is one where I demo the Big Ugly. Shear Scraping is another. Haven't done NRSs yet, Negative Rake scrapers. Sharpening as well....

robo hippy

[Kyle Iwamoto]

My rougher is a 5/8 Thompson V gouge. I find the V gouge to already be really aggressive, so the 40/40 makes it even more aggressive IMO. I can't do the final cuts that SB does with it, I just saw him a couple years ago, still trying to grasp exactly how to use the 40/40. I've always been using a 65 degree Ellsworth for everything.

I also think I should mention that Ron Brown sells a 40/40 jig setting tool for the Wolverine. I can't hand sharpen, I been using a Tormek. Ground away a lot of my Thompson trying to learn to get that 40/40. The RB set up jig works like a champ IMO. Saves a lot of metal for ME, since I have a hard time hand sharpening.

[tom lucas]

I have both a Thompson 5/8" U and V gouge. I use with a swept back grind. I used the u-gouge when first cutting a lot of air but as soon as I can get enough round to ride the bevel for a push cut, I switch to the v-gouge. I prefer the v-gouge for smoother push cuts. I haven't tried a40/40 grind yet. On my to-do list.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

Ive been using traditional tools for maybe a couple weeks or so, just now starting to get some color back in my knuckles.I have a 3/4" Carter and Son 40/40 and a 5/8" Carter and Son Parabolic Mahoney Style.
I'm learning to sharpen with the Kodiak System and have a 10-347 bandsaw coming in next month. I should be able to give advice in a week or two :)

[Richard Coers]

Cut the blank into an octagon with a chainsaw first. Then the 5/8 gouge you have will be fine. Larger is a very vague term for size, but I just assume the chainsaw will work well. In my opinion, that 40/40 is a gimmick used to make demo and tool money on the demo circuit.

[Don Stephan]

Surprised there has not been a question which type of cut is to be used - push or pull. If a new concept, Lyle Jamieson has Youtube video on each.

My preference is to do all the rough shaping with a pull cut, and a thompson 5/8" bar diameter spindle gouge is wonderful. I did try pulling with a bowl gouge, just long enough to confirm R Raffan's statement that a bowl gouge flute can get clogged with the shavings. Yes, the surface can be rough if the spindle gouge wing is not sharp, bugt I always finish with push cuts anyway.

[Allen Mattsen]

Great stuff here folks.

Glad to hear about the Ron Brown jig being a possible option.

One of these days I'll have to find someone to help weld me a Big Ugly tool. The guy I bought my chainsaw from in Portland had one on his wall and I knew exactly what it was, though not for sale. Maybe a drive to visit Mr. Reed some day. I bet I'd learn a ton.

I had considered really dropping some coin on a large bandsaw for cleaning up blanks. Well, I'm still considering it.

I have watched a ton of S. Batty videos re: the 40/40 (and a few others showing it as well.) One of our club members spent time with Stuart, knows it, and I think can teach me directly. I did try a 1/2" Thompson V w/ 40/40 while with him a few weeks ago which still registers positively with me. I wanted to pick up another gouge or two before trying to make that happen so as to be prepared and also learn to sharpen them.

Still trying to figure out the 3/4 gouge stuff. I've held a Thomson w/ 20" handle in my hands and it is a substantial bit of metal! I didn't know what flute it had. Seems a lot of the 3/4s out there are some specialized 'named' tool or a U shaped flute. I've seen some grind a BOB type 3/4 into a swept back or 40/40 grind if I remember correctly...

[Reed Gray]

Well, it surprises me to hear people commenting that the 40/40 grind is 'aggressive'. I never noticed that any particular tool was aggressive, because to me it is all based on how much push you are putting into the cut, not the tool itself. Brings to mind the old song by the Seeds, for you garage band freaks, Pushing Too Hard. A common problem. I do use a push cut with it and the flutes tend to be more up than sideways.

The pull cut is another one that mystifies me. As near as I can tell, most of the time a swept back gouge is used. The handle is dropped. I have seen people doing the identical cut, but some stand on the push side and some stand on the pull side.

I did look at the Ron Brown jig. It does require a 3 inch protrusion. There is a post by Dennis Gooding on the AAW site where he figured out how to do it with the Wolverine jig, in the tips and tutorials section of the AAW Forum. I didn't really understand it and didn't really try to figure it out since I don't use the Wolverine jig.

robo hippy

[Edward Weber]

I never noticed that any particular tool was aggressive, because to me it is all based on how much push you are putting into the cut, not the tool itself.

robo hippy

Exactly.
How you present to tool to the wood affects how aggressive a cut will be.

I understand when people say aggressive or grabby (I've said it too) but it's either the incorrect tool for the cut or improper tool presentation.

[roger wiegand]

In my opinion, that 40/40 is a gimmick used to make demo and tool money on the demo circuit.

Doubt it sells many tools, it's just a reshaping that can be done on most any gouge. Most of us already have spares. Certainly if you find no benefit to it you shouldn't bother. Some of us find it useful some of the time.

Or, perhaps every grind is a gimmick for someone-- lots of people have spent money for a "signature" gouge pre-sharpened with an Irish grind variant.

[Edward Weber]

Or, perhaps every grind is a gimmick for someone-- lots of people have spent money for a "signature" gouge pre-sharpened with an Irish grind variant.

Gimmick is right.
I don't know why but people constantly buy tools that are marketed as a BOB gouge or an Irish grind or a signature blah blah blah.
It's your tool, grind it how you want to, what works best for you.
Buy a Benjamin's best or a Harbor freight tool and experiment.
Diameter and flute shape are far more important factors than the grind when purchasing tools.
When I buy a new tool, the grind doesn't come into play, since I'll more than likely put my own grind on it as soon as I get it home or delivered.

[William C Rogers]

Gimmick is right.
I don't know why but people constantly buy tools that are marketed as a BOB gouge or an Irish grind or a signature blah blah blah.
It's your tool, grind it how you want to, what works best for you.
Buy a Benjamin's best or a Harbor freight tool and experiment.
Diameter and flute shape are far more important factors than the grind when purchasing tools.
When I buy a new tool, the grind doesn't come into play, since I'll more than likely put my own grind on it as soon as I get it home or delivered.

Don’t disagree with most, but some. I agree each has their grind on a tool that they like. However not all gouges are the same. A BOB gouge is different from a standard bowl gouge and requires a different grind. See post "Mystery Gouge” for dimensional differences. If the grind is 60 degree or some other angle that is user preference. Many of the signature tools have different flute shapes. Again the angle is user preference, but the design may be more fitting to an individual preference.

[Edward Weber]

I brought up flute shape as a distinguishing characteristic in another thread, I failed to here. (my mistake)

1. The point is that some tools are sold as different when the only real difference is the grind.
2. Some tools actually have a different flute shape and are indeed, a different tool.
Other than U,V and parabolic, I'm not sure what other flutes shapes are very common.
I would say I believe the fist category outweighs the second.

[Reed Gray]

A conundrum of sorts. Any tool can be ground a number of different ways. I don't know if I would buy a signature tool because of who has their name on it, but the flute shape can make big differences as well as how it is ground.

I don't use a swept back grind any more. They are generally 60 or so degree nose bevels, and the wings are ground back maybe twice the diameter of the tool. To me, it is more of a 'one tool does it all' type of gouge. To me, the more specialized tools, in this case bowl gouges, do the job better. The 40/40 for the outside, and down the walls on the inside, then the specialized BOB tool for the transition and across the bottom. The U flutes do not make for a good swept back grind or 40/40 grind tool. I don't think I ever tried to grind a half round flute to a swept back grind or a 40/40, but the ones I have are the first set I ever bought from Craft Supplies. Parabolic and the more open V shaped flutes will make fine 40/40 tools and swept back grind tools. The deeper V flute like on the old Glaser tools did not do well with these grinds. They did plug up when I tried to do heavy roughing with them.

Pretty much any flute shape can be ground to a BOB tool, and some work better than others. I do prefer a ) nose shape. The V gouges are on my least preferred flute shape, but the half round, U shaped, detail gouges, and the fluteless gouge from Doug Thompson all make excellent BOB tools.

I am blessed or cursed with having to experiment with 'different' things....

robo hippy

[Allen Mattsen]

I asked Stuart Batty during his AAW Symposium demo conversation today if he preferred a parabolic or 'V' flute for the 40/40 grind and he said parabolic (elliptical). In part, because he said the V shape can be slightly harder to sharpen correctly (obviously not for him). Specifically, blending the nose and wing can be more challenging. I found this interesting.

I have yet to try the grind, but that may inform my decision on which gouge to buy for this purpose.

[roger wiegand]

I'm not a good or experienced enough turner to tell the differences in performance between the subtly different flute shapes (perhaps in another 40 years...); but different grinds on the same tool certainly perform differently and do different kinds of cuts better or worse. I suggest people starting off pick one of the general purpose grinds on any gouge that is not some weird, extreme shape and master its use. Then try something else to see whether it offers any improvement for your work.

I used only an Ellsworth/Irish grind on a Henry Taylor "Superflute" gouge for the first 20 some years. I now have two more from Doug Thompson, one ground for BOB (which I find I almost never use) and one ground 40/40. I find myself reaching for the 40/40 tool quite a lot when roughing.

My HT tool was getting pretty short so I recently bought a "signature" gouge made by Thompson (to get a parabolic flute he doesn't sell in his regular line) that came with a version of what I know as a "standard" bowl grind-- not swept as far back as the irish, relatively straight wings). Tried it for a while and didn't find it as useful as my usual Ellsworth style, so reground it to the Ellsworth shape. Given how long the Thompson gouges last I may not get a chance to compare the parabolic to his usual shape.

[John K Jordan]

...I suggest people starting off pick one of the general purpose grinds on any gouge that is not some weird, extreme shape and master its use. Then try something else to see whether it offers any improvement for your work.
...

That's good advice. My opinion based on experience and observation is a skilled turner can pick up nearly any sharp tool with any grind and after an experimental cut or two can make it work well. There are big differences in some but often they are subtle. Notice I said "sharp".

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

As far as difficulty of sharpening a V flute compared to a parabolic flute, it is all about how you roll the tool. If you have a half round flute, you roll at the same rate, smooth and steady. With a parabolic flute, you roll at pretty much the same rate, but less time around the nose. With a V flute, I sharpen the wing first, and then a quick roll onto the nose. If you go slow around the nose arc, you can over grind just past dead center, and you get a little scallop or bird's beak as I have heard it called. It was not a difficult thing to figure out and correct for me.

robo hippy

[Edward Weber]

As far as difficulty of sharpening a V flute compared to a parabolic flute, it is all about how you roll the tool. If you have a half round flute, you roll at the same rate, smooth and steady. With a parabolic flute, you roll at pretty much the same rate, but less time around the nose. With a V flute, I sharpen the wing first, and then a quick roll onto the nose. If you go slow around the nose arc, you can over grind just past dead center, and you get a little scallop or bird's beak as I have heard it called. It was not a difficult thing to figure out and correct for me.

robo hippy


That's just about exactly how I sharpen mine. The wings and the transition area take the most attention as there is more material to be removed. It only takes a second or two on the very tip to blend in the two sides.

[Allen Mattsen]

As far as difficulty of sharpening a V flute compared to a parabolic flute, it is all about how you roll the tool. If you have a half round flute, you roll at the same rate, smooth and steady. With a parabolic flute, you roll at pretty much the same rate, but less time around the nose. With a V flute, I sharpen the wing first, and then a quick roll onto the nose. If you go slow around the nose arc, you can over grind just past dead center, and you get a little scallop or bird's beak as I have heard it called. It was not a difficult thing to figure out and correct for me.

robo hippy

Thank you. I'd like to ask you why you decided to use 45° instead of 40 and what do you like about it as opposed to the 40°? What's different in how you use it or how it performs?

[Jim Barkelew]

In metal machining the material removal rates of a machine are directly related to the horsepower at the spindle. Other variables have a minor effect. I suspect wood cutting is the same, the more power, the faster the wood comes off. A sharp tool and a 3-4 HP motor will remove a huge pile of chips regardless of the gouge. Using 5/8 gouge with minimal HP won't perform well, regardless of the grind IMHO. I like making sawdust so I keep my tools sharp and they work for me, even if they weren't ground perfectly.

Jim

[Don Stephan]

Find and join a woodturning group in your area. Most likely there will be several people willing to get together with you and let you try several different flute shapes and grinds at the same time, before purchasing something.

[Allen Mattsen]

Find and join a woodturning group in your area. Most likely there will be several people willing to get together with you and let you try several different flute shapes and grinds at the same time, before purchasing something.

I've done this and it's exactly why I want to investigate the 40/40 👍😎

[Allen Mattsen]

In metal machining the material removal rates of a machine are directly related to the horsepower at the spindle. Other variables have a minor effect. I suspect wood cutting is the same, the more power, the faster the wood comes off. A sharp tool and a 3-4 HP motor will remove a huge pile of chips regardless of the gouge. Using 5/8 gouge with minimal HP won't perform well, regardless of the grind IMHO. I like making sawdust so I keep my tools sharp and they work for me, even if they weren't ground perfectly.

Jim

I've found I can take nearly full 5/8" shavings with my 5/8" Jaimeson/parabolic bowl gouge with my 3HP lathe. It's a blast!
I have to keep getting better, find efficiency, and continue to develop my eye for form, as well as fill out my tools and tool choices (among other things). Seems like a large, long handled, stable 3/4 gouge may also be fun - and perhaps better than that: absorb more of the contact my body takes while roughing large, out of balance material.