Frame and panel door, how to construct the panels?

[Scott Clausen]

Even though I had thought about using cedar but it was starting to make this to complicated. This is my first rail and style door and I am making it out of treated lumber for exterior access to crawl/basement space. I have milled down 2x8's into 4" styles, a 7" bottom rail, 5" lock rail & top rail. In the middle I am planning on using a 3" piece or narrower off cuts to connect the rails (not sure if that is a middle style?).

Question: How to assemble the panels? I have cut a 1/2" groove in the rails and styles that matches my 10mm mortice chisel that I will use to cut the mortices. It is a little over 3/8" where the panel material will go. My idea for the panels are:

1) Tongue and groove the 3/8" thick slates that make up the panel but not glue them together to allow for expansion and entire panel will also float.

2) Make a panel by gluing up treated pieces and plane a bevel to fit in the 3/8" groove.

I have Tite Bond III for glue but I have never worked with a treated panel or use glue on an exterior piece. Do you think a glued panel can hold up? House has a wide overhang but some splashing will hit the door at times. Thanks in advance for any help or ideas. This is my first door build.

[lowell holmes]

I would make three sample joints using scrap to perfect the joint.

[Warren Mickley]

I would not glue anything. With this type of thing, you could easily have to replace the bottom rail or part of panel. You want it to come apart very easily.

I guess you could glue up panels, but they should be somewhat captured in the frame, so they cannot really fall apart. I would lean toward groove or rabbet joints. With the crawl space on one side and the weather on the other there can be quite a differential moisture environment.

[Scott Clausen]

Very interesting but I don't think I can get an exterior door to hold together with a friction fit if that is what you are getting at. I haven't really gotten much of a response on this probably because not many people hand build a exterior door out of treated wood. I think I will need to glue up for strength and might even run a pin through the tenons. I am also thinking of beveling (hand plane) the non show side of the panels so the panel can be slightly larger than the groove and hopefully be forced to the front of the groove to limit moisture. I don't have a lot of material cost in this and like all I do it is a training project. The education will continue as I see how well it wears and lasts, if it doesn't make it I can build another.

[Mike Allen1010]

Scott, for sure you want to glue the M&T's that hold the frame together and pinning them wouldn't hurt. Also recommend gluing up the panels to the dimensions you need to fit the frame (no reason to leave an unglued joint here).

If your central question is how do I fit/retain the panels in their frames- fiquire how much expansion/contraction you can expect based on your current Humidity and the range over time and plane the panels to appropriate width. Back bevel on the inside is also a good idea. If the width of the panels captured in the groove is small ~1/4", compression of the panel will provide a little extra cushion for expansion, recognizing in exterior application a tight fit will help keep water tight.

Don't know what to expect with PT lumber for expansion? Titebond III is good for exterior applications. Love to see some pics of your progress.

[steven c newman]

Ok...been a long time since I have done doors....last ones were passage doors...and a couple screen doors..

I used through mortises....with both pins and wedges. The panels were raised, but they were glued up.....they were a hair undersized as to width...to allow plenty of room in the grooves, IF need be. On the "inside" face of the doors...I place a small finish nail deadcentered on each panel, one top, one bottom....Keeps the center of the panel in place, yet allows the panel to swell, or shrink, as they see fit....and the panel will NOT rattle.

Last Passage door I made....was a "Pre-hung", Louvered, to go between the basement and their Kitchen.....that is build the door, build the jamb, install the lockset...then take the assembly to their house and install it....then let them paint as they liked...all I did was sand, and primed. That was almost 30 years ago, BTW.

[Warren Mickley]

Yes, you want the door held together with pins. The pins you can knock out from the back side. Using waterproof glue in mortises could easily tip the balance from just replacing a part to junking the whole thing and starting over.

You can have the backs of the panels tapered so they fit nicely in your grooves, but the grooves should have extra clearance for expansion. This is an exterior door near the ground. Between a damp, rainy spell and a hot dry spell, there could be a lot of movement in the panels.

[steven c newman]

Let's see..
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Top rail through mortise
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Lay out marks..
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Lock rail mortises...
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Lock Rail...pins and wedges

[Jerry Olexa]

Agree with Lowell...Joints very important...Test on scraps of same thickness before diving in.

[Scott Winners]

In a recent thread about choosing wood species for drawboring a user here Tom King was talking about the old houses he works on and how the window parts are MT joints, pinned but with zero to minimal drawbore and no glue. When he needs to replace a part he can knock the pins out, take out and replace the one bit that needs replaced and then pin it back together and paint.

It makes perfect sense to me. I can't see the old timers making it hard on themselves to maintain their homes before latex paint was invented.

I have never glued PT, but I have read countless times you want the wood to dry out first. If the wood is damp the glue won't cure until the wood dries and then the glue dries, two years from now.

[Scott Clausen]

As requested, some progress pictures. Tenons rough cut. My grooves are possibly not dead center so I will fine tune with my router plane to get them dead on.
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[Scott Clausen]

I think I like the idea of using treated plywood. So let me make sure I have this right. With plywood it is dimensionally stable so I can than glue it in place and not only will it add to the strength but also allow me to seal (caulk) the plywood where it meets the frame rails & stiles. Does this sound correct?

[Edward Weber]

Yes, that's correct

[Scott Clausen]

And a big thank you to all who have helped me over think this project.

[Joe A Faulkner]

While the plywood is dimensionally stable, the door frame pieces are not. If you glue the panel inside the frames, as the middle “lock” rail expands and contracts I’m guessing there will be added stress on the glued styles. I’d be inclined to let the panels float inside the frames. Side to side you may make the panels fairly tight, top to bottom, I’d allow for some movement of the rails, especially the lock rail. In your region, are crawl,spaces typically vented? They are here, so having air tight door panels wouldn’t buy much. Maybe Tom King will chime in. My sense is he has a good deal of experience with door and window construction techniques.

[Scott Clausen]

The tight panels are not so much to "seal" the space but an attempt to help hold the door together and allow me to seal the joint between the panel, styles & rails to prevent moisture intrusion. The adding strength thing came up when I had my first screw up on this project. Chopping the mortises I had gotten as deep as I could so I shortened the tenons to fit what I had chopped. I woke up the next morning at 4:30 and thought " you dummy, use a drill to remove waste deeper". I did this last night and it worked great using the mortise walls as a guide. Too late for that first joint so if the door fails the next version will be better for it.

[Joe A Faulkner]

Typically panels are not used to hold the door together. With pressure treated lumber you may want to consider a polyurethane glue. The stuff sets up quickly though, so you have to work fast. You could tape off your mortise and tenon now and apply an exterior grade stain or water sealer to the panel grooves. This won’t prevent wood expansion but will provide some sealing. One final thought is that you could add a couple more horizontal rails to add more strength to the door. Typically 5 panel doors are interior doors, but what’s to say you couldn’t have a cust style for this situation?

[Scott Clausen]

Thanks Joe, The short open time of polyurethane glue could be a major issue. I hear that Tite Bond III does okay with dampness and has a good open time but have never used it before. I think I will prime the grooves prior to assembly just to add some protection there if I don't glue them in. It wouldn't hurt to prime the plywood edge too. The door is only 4 1/2' high and 3' wide and right now has two panels but I al thinking about adding another style in the middle which would make it a four panel door.

[Ben Ellenberger]

Lost Art Press has a book “door making and window making” that is a reprint of an old guide on how to do it. You can get the pdf for less than $15.

It is a good resource for a traditional way different door types were made.

[Scott Clausen]

Ben, I think I may go ahead and get that book but I will probably opt for the hard cover version.

I decided to get treated ply and was going to get the 1/2" but it was so badly warped that I went with the 3/4" since it was only $83 vs $77 for the 1/2". I hope the added weight doesn't bite me. A nice surprise was at the register when he said "I guess they need to change the sign, it's $68 in my system."

[Scott Clausen]

Door progress, things ready for glue up.
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I glued using Tite Bond III and opted to let the panels float. I did a dress rehearsal and was confident I could get this dead square. After glue was applied and clamped together I realized that I lack a clamp long enough to pull the door into square. Running out of open time fast I started pounding the styles with my dead blow mallet with no movement. Plan "B" was to bounce the style on the floor to move the door frame. Good thing I left the styles long to protect the finished door. I got it close, maybe a 1/32 to an 1/8" so I clamped it and let sit over night.
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On to the jamb.
Also as a side note I learned the hard way not to leave a nice plane on treated wood overnight.
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Scared the crap out of me but I was able to bring it back thank God.
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