Upgraded planer recommendations

[Jeff Roltgen]

Close to 15 yrs on a grizzly G01021X 15". No complaints in full time woodshop - rebuilt gear box/brgs/seals, and recently had motor repaired (points stuck/burned) and new bearing in it as well. In process of gearbox rebuild, learned the weak link is a ~5/8" pinion engaging the gear-drive system. Had that guy ground down to about 1/2 of its tooth profile in 10 yrs of work. Would like to trade up sooner than later, as in the process of repairing, you naturally start looking....

Not necessarily needing larger capacity (43" wide belt on hand), but features such as adjustable bed rollers and segmented chip-breakers seem appealing, and could help get even better results (or more adjustment headaches?)

Observations:
1> Have an awesome new F900z shaper - why no planers offered by the Felder/Hammer group? All J/P combos. Definitely not interested.
2> Most all of these light industrial machines have way shorter beds. Currently 52" infeed through outfeed on the Grizz, yet 20-24" machines are short, like only 30" of feed-through material support. Concerned I'll miss those long iron wings, but almost all machines that meet upgraded specs are short like this. A non issue once I get used to it, perhaps?

Considerations:
1> Ironwood P500
2> Laguna PX-22
3> Grizzly G0544
4> South Bend 15 or 20" (separate, variable speed feed motors mitigate the tiny pinion issue, but no chip-breaker/roller upgrade)

Experience with any of these? Pluses/minuses? Any other good options I'm overlooking here for manufacturers?
3Phase - rather not, but have new digital converter, so could do. Trying not to hit 5 figures, but willing to stretch if it knocks it out of the park for performance.

MUST be helical cutter head, but then you already knew that, right? :D

Thanks!

jeff

[Bill Dufour]

How much would it cost to get an older industrial unit rebuilt? Rockwell wedge bed planners are known for failing worm gears that cost over $500 + installation.
Three phase +vfd would allow slow start and some speed variation. Also reverse if wood jams in cut. But you really should lock out reverse in the programing. Not sure how the gear train and chip breaker pressure bars would like reverse.
Bill D

[Phillip Mitchell]

Do you have to buy new? Does it have to be single phase? So many higher quality/long term options than your original list for well under 5 figures if you can work with those 2 variables. What type of converter do you have (VFD or RPC) and what’s the biggest motor it can start?

I have seen several Powermatic 180 (18”) single phase (5 or 7.5 hp) machines with Byrd cutterheads pop up over the last few years used.

I would look for a SAC or SCM 20-24” machine with helical head. Sectional chip breakers and infeed rollers, bed rollers, powered raise and lower on the table and digital read out on the bed height on most of them in the last 25 years. Definitely out there for under $10k and likely miles ahead of your Taiwanese list.

How much do the Felder Format machines go for?

[Jeff Roltgen]

Bill - Not real interested in a rebuild at this time - too much wrenching and electrical in the shop as of late. I got work to do!

Phillip - As stated above, strongly inclined towards new. Again, 3phase do-able, as I've got a 20HP Phase perfect I just put into service last week to replace a rotary. It starts my 20HP wide belt, and breezily handles 10HP shaper(one machine at a time, but I'm a one-person shop)
Also- I did see that SCM has some contenders...
Felder Format - Aha - I see. Did not realize I had to search under "Format" class to see they do have planers (sorry, thicknesser). Guess I'll have to make an inquiry on it's pricing.

The Ironwood's on top, as it appears to have it all, but not sure of country of origin = probably Taiwan (?) Just really curious if anyone has any experience with those.

[Phillip Mitchell]

If you have a 20 HP phase perfect then 3 phase seems like a no brainer as the build/quality of most 3 PH machines is going to be better/stouter than single phase offerings, though that is, of course a generalization.

Not sure how it compares, but you might add Cantek to your list? They have a 20” helical head planer with all the digital bells and whistles for around 10k - P508HV. I know the simpler 20” machine without digital stuff is under 10k but can’t remember if there is a helical head offering on that one.

[John P Clark]

FELDER/ Hammer make stand alone planes and jointers - look for a hammer A3 41 D which is just a planer and you could step up to the FELDER Planers

[Charles Coolidge]

Two things you said, "Close to 15 yrs on a grizzly G01021X 15". No complaints in full time woodshop" and "I got work to do!" so the choice seems obvious buy another G01021X2 stay with the machine you know. If you purchase a different planer in the same size/class as the Grizzly there's no guarantee you won't run into new/different issues. As you say you got work to do.

CAUTION: I doubt any of these planers coming out of Asia are using Byrd Shelix cutterheads. I just purchased a Powermatic 15HH and it does NOT have a Byrd Shelix cutterhead. It's an Asian knock off and looks exactly like the current Grizzly G01021X2 cutterhead. Powermatic quietly removed the word Byrd Shelix from their web site. Retailers like Woodcraft have also removed Byrd Shelix and now only say "helical". Other retailers I'm guessing who have not updated their web sites are still advertising them as coming with Byrd Shelix. I called Byrd Tools and got a somewhat cryptic response. They told me you have to specifically request a Byrd Shelix cutterhead now when ordering.

Having owned the Grizzly G0453 planer with a Byrd Shelix cutterhead I installed (plus 6 other Grizzly machines) and now my 2nd Powermatic 15HH planer I prefer the Powermatic over the Grizzly. With Grizzly's recent price increases the Grizzly G01021X 15" with shipping is only $130 less than the Powermatic on sale for 10% off with free shipping. Jeff likely can't wait for the next Powermatic sale but just saying. My G0543 had a textured outfeed roller basically small shallow teeth that would press that pattern into the wood ever so slightly often not visible until you put some finish on the wood. That's why I switched to the 15HH which had a smooth outfeed roller. Grizzly may have fixed this issue since.

Having shopped planers earlier this year, ending up choosing another 15hh this was my thoughts. There were abundant used industrial Powermatic and Rockler planers for sale. But like Jeff I decided I wanted to use a planer not restore one. The new 20 inch planers in the 15HH class seemed too light weight to me. The cast iron tables are wider and a bit longer but not thicker or more rigid. If I'm going to hog a 20 inch wide board I'd want one of the 5-7.5 hp industrial planers. Not only did not need one of those but they are quite large and I don't have the 3 phase power for them. Just way overkill. Again like Jeff a better option would be the 15HH plus a wider belt sander.

[Jeff Roltgen]

John - thanks - adding that one to my inquiry with my Felder rep. Sometimes Felder is a little confusing to navigate. In fact, the Felder shop shows all the Hammer combos, but no stand alone thickness planers. They say a re-designed website is about to be launched soon.

Charles, thanks for seeing that pattern in my rambling! Perhaps I answered my own question. Good point. I still wouldn't rule out keeping things simple, possibly going for the Powermatic version of the Taiwanese iron. As stated, tons of machines with different nameplates and paint, clearly rolling out of same factories over there. I have a lot of Grizzly's, most of which are very respectable performers too.

Have to admit, I've got "the fever" now that I've upgraded to one Felder machine and fully realizing the qualities these European machines bring in terms of performance and safety.
Doesn't mean the other stuff isn't serviceable, as stated, but finding myself more and more asking " but what if I went one or two steps up in class of machine..."

Very intrigued by the South Bend offerings. Separate feed motor and a markedly different looking helical head on those really have me thinking that's just enough upgrades to cost ratio to consider the 15 or 20". Would love to hear anyone's feedback with real-time use of these.

[David Buchhauser]

My G0543 had a textured outfeed roller basically small shallow teeth that would press that pattern into the wood ever so slightly often not visible until you put some finish on the wood. That's why I switched to the 15HH which had a smooth outfeed roller. Grizzly may have fixed this issue since.


I also own the G0453 (G0453z) with spiral cutter head. Grizzly is still shipping these machines with the serrated-steel outfeed roller, although this marking problem was brought to their attention several years ago. They do currently offer a replacement rubber outfeed roller for around $100, and advertise this as "Eliminates marks serrated-steel outfeed rollers can leave in the wood when taking a very fine or finishing pass." I'm really not sure why Grizzly doesn't simply offer this as stock equipment on their planer.

David

[Bobby Robbinett]

Get the Grizzly g9740g. I have a lot of experience with this planer and it is fantastic. A very well built and highly precise machine. I used to also own an older large heavy SCMI planer and that particular Grizzly does everything the SCMI could do too. Of course the SCMI was a much older machine but I honestly preferred the Grizzly.

[David Kumm]

Ideally a true upgrade machine will have a 5" head, a 40"+ length table, four post design and if bed rollers, the mechanism to adjust them should be accurate or at least easy to lower as they make more sense if powered but few planers provide that upgrade any more.. If Tersa ( my favorite ) the machine should have a well designed chipbreaker and pressure bar and particularly the PB adjustments should be easy and accessible. Two outfeed rollers are nice. If going with an insert head, the chipbreaker and PB details are less important but the manufacturing tolerences of the head are very important. Any flaw in an insert pocket is fatal. Look and learn the details for the various builds to get an idea. There are " upgraded " planers out there that lack some of the components that really improve finish quality. Insert heads mask some of those omissions but a good straight knife machine , particularly with a Tersa type head should be considered. Dave

[Mike Kees]

I own a Cantek 20'' planer. the one that has an insert head and no extra bells and whistles. It is a very solid and well made machine with segmented infeed roller and segmented heavy duty chipbreaker as well as fully adjustable pressure bar. The outfeed roller is urethane. 5h.p. three phase motor. These are around $7300 new here in Alberta. Not sure what U.S. pricing would be. This is a very good machine and a real big step up from any of the four post models. I found mine used about 6-8 months ago. Also has lever adjustable bed rolls.

[Alan Lightstone]

I have the Felder D951 Planer (or thicknesser, or whatever you want to call it) with the Digi-Drive and spiral cutters and love it. No fuss, no bother. Just works great. 19-7/8". You could go bigger with the D963 which is 24-3/4" as well. They sell Format4 versions as well, but the normal Felder is already so solid, I didn't think I needed to upgrade.

Call Felder and talk to your local rep (Erik would know who it is). In my experience they are extremely helpful. Great customer service.

[Jeff Roltgen]

Alan - do you have the segmented chipbreaker option on the D951? Wondering if that makes much of a difference.

Oliver 4455B is a 22" with a genuine Byrd Shellix head. Really like those, as I upgraded my 10" jointer to one many years ago. Wonderful finish, so very appealing feature on that machine. No motorized height, but that hasn't bothered me with current machine. Any Oliver fans out there?

Looked a bit closer at the Ironwood P500/600. Many features to like, but their multi-piece insert style helical head concerns me. 2 sided carbide with 2 retainer screws fastened to gib, then a spacer and set screw to fasten knife/gib set to the head. Lots of room for error with so many parts for each insert. It's one thing to set inserts in this fashion on a 3 bit shaper head, but with 100+ on that 20-24" head seems like replacement and getting all in harmony would be a complete nightmare. Not sure why they did this, but thinking it knocks that one out of the running due to complexity of that head.
Anyone have experience with one of those to counter my concerns on those inserts?

Thanks for all the responses - helping a lot to zero in on a proper fitting machine for my shop.

[Alan Lightstone]

Alan - do you have the segmented chipbreaker option on the D951? Wondering if that makes much of a difference.


I'm not sure what that is. I don't see it on the receipt, FWIW.

[Charles Coolidge]

I also own the G0453 (G0453z) with spiral cutter head. Grizzly is still shipping these machines with the serrated-steel outfeed roller, although this marking problem was brought to their attention several years ago. They do currently offer a replacement rubber outfeed roller for around $100, and advertise this as "Eliminates marks serrated-steel outfeed rollers can leave in the wood when taking a very fine or finishing pass." I'm really not sure why Grizzly doesn't simply offer this as stock equipment on their planer.

David

Hard to believe it still has that lame outfeed roller. And you get to pay another $100 to fix their design flaw? You know what else that outfeed roller is really good at? Grabbing a wood chip and mashing it down into the board now you have to pry out the wood chip and there's a big dent. Oh now the nightmare is coming back to me. lol

[Jeff Roltgen]

I'm reading that Felder terms it as " Sectional pressure bar (optional)", so likely would be stated on invoice as such

Basically, instead of a single bar spanning full width as a chipbreaker, it is broken down into segments ~ 1" wide with individual springs. Idea is, if you send boards through with varying thicknesses, a thinner one or two may be fluttering loosely between two taller ones, creating chatter marks. EG: I like to gang-plane 1-3" FF/door stock stacked on jointed edges with opposite edge up for surfacing/cleaning up that last edge once the first 3 are surfaced and true. Usually 4-6 pieces at a time. With a segmented chipbreaker, you are supposed to get a finer surface, as the individual segments control the stock better.

Just found this illustration at a Felder dealer site:


https://files.hoechsmann.com/lexikon/img/610x240/fel_gliederdruckbalken.jpg

A lot of my direction for contenders is based on this feature, as the hope is it will help produce better results than old machine, regardless what brand. Perhaps some of these upper-tier
machines simply handle stock better by design, but the fact that it is offered as an option on the D951 tells me it must make a significant difference. I'll be asking rep to quote this option - just curious if you do similar processes and if you're getting a nice finish either way.

[Alan Lightstone]

Personally I don't use that work flow, and don't believe my D951 has one. That being said, I certainly haven't missed it. Sounds like it might be a worthwhile option for you, though.

[andrew whicker]

Why do you prefer a Tersa head?

[Jeff Roltgen]

Andrew - had the same question- here's an article by Sam Blasco describing his experience with them and why it's all he want's to use. Seems so odd, as we all are programmed to ask for spirals/helicals in this day and age. Would love to see this system at work in person - just highly skeptical about longevity and wear, but they seem reasonable on price for 2 sided replacements, other than carbide - over half a grand for a set of 3 of those. Seems individual chips would be less trouble for the occasional knicks/dings, but it sure looks interesting:

https://www.elitemetaltools.com/article/tersa-vs-xylent-cutter-heads-expert-opinion

And here's a video of the blade change process. Hard to believe, but there it is- slide knives in place, fire up machine, centrifugal force sets them in place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ro0hEOtXdw

[Erik Loza]

No dog in this fight but I have do lots of hours on Tersa machines. My experience: Tersa is capable of giving you the best FINISH quality of any cutterhead system out there but what I think most folks are looking for as far as as the overall ownership experience of a jointer or planer, is a spiral head. You can't go wrong with either. Just a matter of what your budget and expectations are.

Erik