Sharpening

[Adam Herd]

I’m looking for an alternative to water stones as I’m tired of the mess and the constant flattening. What do people recommend? I was thinking diamond stones but they are very expensive. Are glass or ceramic stones better then water stones? I’ve seen that they are much cheaper than diamond stones but don’t know if they are less work than water. Thank you!

[Rob Young]

I’m looking for an alternative to water stones as I’m tired of the mess and the constant flattening. What do people recommend? I was thinking diamond stones but they are very expensive. Are glass or ceramic stones better then water stones? I’ve seen that they are much cheaper than diamond stones but don’t know if they are less work than water. Thank you!

Oil stones & free-hand.

Least expensive new stones is to go with a fine India stone (they wear in a bit and after a while the scratch pattern looks about like what an 800 or 1000 grit water stone leaves) : https://smile.amazon.com/Norton-614636855653-8-Inch-Combination-Oilstone/dp/B000XK5ZDY/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=norton+india+stone&qid=1624463962&sr=8-2 ($22 at the time of posting)


Baby-oil + kerosene about 50:50 as the honing oil.

I use the leather wheel of a Tormek as my power strop so most of the time I don't bother using my other finer stones. Just spend an extra 10 seconds with the strop. If I'm not near the Tormek, I have a strop made from 2 layers of 3/4" MDF with butt-leather glued to one side. Charged with Autosol. Using that it takes maybe 20 or 30 strokes with firm pressure and for me the blade is ready to go.

Works just fine with O1 and A2 steels. I have some chisels of older vintage "cast" steel and it seems fine and a few that I think are D2 and those also sharpen just fine. Just takes a few extra strokes or a few extra seconds of stropping with the harder stuff.

I do have Washita, soft and hard Arkansas stones but if I'm near the power strop, I generally don't get them out.

Always try re-stropping first before returning to the stones.

[Barney Markunas]

This is pretty well plowed ground if you do some searching.

Ceramics (for example Spyderco but I'm guessing there are others) would check your "no flattening' and "no mess" boxes but you will probably be spending well north of $50/stone and you will want/need several. Assuming you don't drop them onto a concrete floor, they will last you a very long time so your up front investment can be amortized over a fairly long service life. You do need to do a little research though. Some stones marketed as ceramics have ceramic abrasives that work well on tough steels but they are really a water stone variant so they have the flattening and mess issues that you are trying to avoid.

There are a lot of different ways to get to the sharp edges you desire. My suggestion is stick with one system until you get there and then review your gear and approach and see if there are gains to be had. if you start looking before you master what you have, you will quite easily find yourself in a "grass is always greener" situation and find yourself spending $$ on tools/supplies that you might not ever master before the next great sharpening solution comes around.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I like the Shapton stones, which, although they are water stones, they are no soak water stones. I put down a silicone place mat, spritz them with water, and I can then move on. Still do need to flatten them sometimes, but they stay pretty flat. I do not want to soak my stones.

I like my Arkansas stones, hardly ever need flattening; I have never flattened one. I prefer Dan's Whetstones. With a Dan's Whetstone, I will use the Soft, Hard, True Hard, and Black stone; don't bother with the expensive translucent, Dan's claims that the translucent is similar to their True Hard and that their Black is their finest.

The Spyderco Ceramic stones are very nice and stay very flat. I was told to check them for flat when I bought them but I don't remember people talking about flattening them after use.

Some people really like the Diamond stones, and they should stay flat. Over time they become "less coarse" with use, but if you do not abuse them, they last a long time.

I agree with the Norton India stone mentioned already. They stay pretty flat, but, you will still need to keep it flat for woodworking tools. Lots of bang for the buck there. I use these often for things such as axe heads and knives.

You can easily sharpen using sandpaper on glass or tile (I have glass and I have a flat granite stone). In the long run, this method (scary sharp) is more expensive, but, it is how I usually flatten the back of blades with sand paper since I only have to do the big job once.

I should note that I do my primary sharpening with a Tormek, which leaves a "hollow grind" and then it is easy and fast to free hand. This means that I do not need to do a lot of work or put a bunch of strain on my Shapton glass stones.

I do not remember noticing where you live, but, if you want to give any of these things a try, and if you live near the center of Ohio, just let me know.

<added content>
I see now, New York, nope, not near Columbus Ohio.

[Jim Koepke]

Adam, Hopefully you are ready for a book's worth of conflicting opinions.

If you are lucky you may be able to find some decent stones second hand at an estate or yard sale.

There really isn't one best choice for every woodworker.

Something Rob mentioned caught my eye:


I do have Washita, soft and hard Arkansas stones but if I'm near the power strop, I generally don't get them out.

When my stones were kept in a tub under the bench sharpening didn't happen as often as it should. Currently there are actually three+ spots in my shop for sharpening. My water stones have a small bench next to my Power Sharpening System's bench. There is a granite slab ~6" X 4' with abrasive paper attached to it in another spot and another bench has a few square feet dedicated to my oilstones. Currently my oilstones do the bulk of the work.

My diamond stones are mostly for use in the kitchen to touch up knives between sharpening sessions in the shop. (the diamonds tend to wear down over time and use.)

Your choices depend on your needs balanced with what tools you use.

If you have molding planes and gouges you may want to consider oilstones. (there are gouges in my water stones from trying to work curved blades.)

If you have many A2 blades you may find your best choice is faster cutting water stones.

Another consideration is do you have a powered grinder or sharpening system of any kind?

My needs are different than your needs which are likely different than other folks needs. My set up sharpens various woodworking tools including lathe tools, drill bits, garden tools, hatchets, axes, kitchen knives and scraping tools. There is also other metal work to do at times.

To provide a proper answer to what sharpening stones to use, it is necessary to know what kind of metal you are working with and what kinds of tools are being sharpened.

jtk

[Eric Rathhaus]

I don't really think using the PSA lapping films and a flat surface is more expensive in the long run. I think very few workers who switch to stones buy just a few. Most end up with a collection of stones that cancels out any of the claimed savings.

[Rob Luter]

I don't really think using the PSA lapping films and a flat surface is more expensive in the long run. I think very few workers who switch to stones buy just a few. Most end up with a collection of stones that cancels out any of the claimed savings.

After being down that road I guess I'd offer a different perspective. I used PSA on glass blocks for several years. It was effective, but very slow. The film was vulnerable to damage and wore out quickly. Still, it worked and seemed less expensive than stones. That said it was about $65 annually for replacement sheets and took time to cut and replace the worn film. Any serious material removal to repair an edge needed to take place on a grinder or a diamond plate.

I wound up changing to the Rob Cosman method using a diamond plate and a couple Shapton Glasstones. I use a horsehide strop as a last step. It's much faster and my tools have never been sharper. The investment wasn't horrible and at my age the kit will last me the rest of my life. At the rate I was replacing film the payback will be a few years. I still have a few sheets of film and a granite block if need be, but there's been no need since last December.

Link to original post here: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?287898-Cosman-Sharpening-Method-Thoughts&p=3078389#post3078389


Before:

https://live.staticflickr.com/1488/26712452175_7e480b7af1_b.jpg

After:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50988878701_f02602a1bb_b.jpg

[Jack Frederick]

Following Rob’s suggestion so time back I too watched the Rob Cosman videos on sharpening. I have the same set-up Rob shows but it is darned sure not as neat. I have all manner of water stones, abrasives, etc. the Current set-up is just so much cleaner, easier, smaller and the results have been excellent.

[Rob Luter]

....I have the same set-up Rob shows but it is darned sure not as neat. ......

I prettied it up for the photo shoot :D. Plus the melamine top is easy to wipe down.

[Eric Rathhaus]

Rob, I guess you're the outlier that resists the temptation to chase the perfect stone set up. :) BTW: I don't use a grinder for heavy material removal. I just use 80 grit paper (not psa film) stuck to the top of my table saw.

[Rob Luter]

Rob, I guess you're the outlier that resists the temptation to chase the perfect stone set up. :) BTW: I don't use a grinder for heavy material removal. I just use 80 grit paper (not psa film) stuck to the top of my table saw.

I did all the chasing I needed to. I started with the Diamond plate (300/1000) and the 16K Shapton. I added the 6K Shapton as an intermediate step. The Shaptons cut so well I don't need any others.

The reality is the Diamond Plate gets used very rarely, and only to re-establish the primary bevel. The 6K and 16K Shaptons take care of day to day.

[Joe Wood]

OK, I'm not much in to sharpening, but need to be! I ordered the woodcraft deluxe honing guide set a month and a half ago and it's finally being shipped, so I need to get the proper stones now.

I've decided on getting the diamond hones so would appreciate any recomendations of the set I should get.

this is the longest chisel I have, 13" long, and the one I use the most for notching tmbers, so I need long stones. What set should I get?

460122

[Rafael Herrera]

I get by with a Washita stone when a tool needs to be resharpened. When repairing or refurbishing one, I use a bench grinder or sandpaper or a coarse diamond stone or a double sided crystolon or a medium India or a fine India, whatever fits the type of grinding needed. The constant flattening and the whole ritual of using waterstones steered me to oilstones.

[Joe Wood]

Thanks Rafael but I want to do with diamond stones.

[Derek Cohen]

I’m looking for an alternative to water stones as I’m tired of the mess and the constant flattening. What do people recommend? I was thinking diamond stones but they are very expensive. Are glass or ceramic stones better then water stones? I’ve seen that they are much cheaper than diamond stones but don’t know if they are less work than water. Thank you!

Adam, media choices will be influenced by how and what you sharpen.

If you are sharpening O1 or high carbon steel blades, and using a honing guide to create a secondary bevel, then you can get away with most ceramic stones. In which case, for the least upkeep and cleanest sharpening, I would recommend a 600 or 800 grit diamond stone, to be followed by Medium and Ultra Fine Spyderco Ceramic stones. The downside of the Spyderco is that they are only 2” wide. I use these, but freehand sharpen, so the width is not an issue.

There is a strategy within the recommendation above: when you reduce the amount of steel to work, you begin to level the playing field when it comes to sharpening media. So, even A2 and PM-V11 steels - considered by many to be among the more difficult owing to their abrasion resistance - will no longer be a challenge.

There are two ways to reduce the amount of steel: if you use a honing guide, then simply add a micro secondary bevel. If you freehand (or use a guide), hollow grind the primary bevel. Then freehand on the hollow, which acts as a jig. This is what I do. To add to this, I use a 180 CBN wheel, which reduces heat and has much less mess.

The Sigma ceramic waterstones are my recommendation, followed by Shapton Pro (not the glass stones). My personal selection is a Shapton Pro 1000, followed by Sigma 6000 and 13000. I use a 400 grit Atoma diamond stone for flattening. Once flattened, the stones are spritzed with a little soapy water. This prevent stiction and keeps the stones clean.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[William Fretwell]

Adam you don’t really quantify whether the mess or flattening is the main issue. There is some mess with all methods. As for flattening this is minimized by rotation of the stone and using the whole surface.

Once the primary bevel is established sharpening is very quick and even just using the strop brings back an edge for some time.

As for flattening I use a CBN plate. Very quick and you can see your progress very clearly. Splash with a running tap, the vacuum holds them together, rotate, slide some more, flush and you are done. Far from constant, just periodic. The price of CBN plates seems to have come down considerably.

Think about your ratio of work to sharpening, perhaps something is wrong with your sharpening results? It could be an easier fix than replacing your whole system.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

OK, I'm not much in to sharpening, but need to be! I ordered the woodcraft deluxe honing guide set a month and a half ago and it's finally being shipped, so I need to get the proper stones now.

I've decided on getting the diamond hones so would appreciate any recommendation of the set I should get.

this is the longest chisel I have, 13" long, and the one I use the most for notching timbers, so I need long stones. What set should I get?

I think that two things dictate the size. The length of the chisel is not one of them. The width tells you how wide and then the fact that you will use a guide rather than free hand means that it needs to be long enough that you can use the guide.

You already stated that you intend to use diamonds so that part has been decided.

My first recommendation is that you get get "solid plates" as opposed to the style used by the DMT DuoSharp, which has a mesh with diamonds on it and space in between that does not. For the DMT, that means the Dia-Sharp products.

My opinion is that you can probably get by with 8" stones (for length). Your Standard Shapton Glass stone is about 8 1/4" x 2 3/4", which is pretty standard for sizes. At least in the DMT world, you have your choice of:

(disclaimer: I did not shop around, but i have dealt with Sharpening supplies and you can probably get these from your local woodcraft or similar with no problems).

8" x 3" (wide enough for your plane irons). here is a set of four grits for $226 https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT-8-Dia-Sharp-Diamond-Kit-P405C24.aspx

There is also a 10" x 4", and if you really want the biggest there is, you go for:

12" x 3" for closer to $400 for a full set (https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT-12-Dia-Sharp-MagnaBase-System-P532C24.aspx)
Part of the cost for the larger stones as linked here is that it comes on a nice large magnetic base so that you can very easily flip things over to get to the other side. Yes, I have this set and love it, but, it is a hard sell to go from $226 to jump to $400. To be clear, however, you might spend $70 for two similar bases and the larger stones are available without the base i think.


If you get all four grits for DMT, you will have:

Extra Coarse 60 micron / 220
Coarse 45 micron / 325 mesh
Fine 25 micron / 600 mesh
Extra-Fine 9 micron / 1200 mesh

Compare to Atoma

Extra Coarse 140
Coarse 400
Fine 600
Extra-Fine 1200

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?253694-diamond-stones-DMT-dia-sharp-vs-Atoma

I have never used Trend stones, but I have not heard anything bad about them off hand. But you should at least consider them.

I have simply always used DMT, but, some people prefer Atoma stones.

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Atoma-Diamond-Plate-P1067C272.aspx

This has the Atoma stones at about $400 for a set of four at 8 1/4" x 2 13/16", and that is with just the stones.

The Atoma is supposed to have a better pattern on the stone and fewer "rogue" spots. I had some rogue spots on one of my DMT stones (I probably own 12 double sided stones). I had to "break it in" to remove it.


Trend does have a double sided 8" x 3" for about $130 at Woodcraft

extra Fine 1000 grit / 15 micron and Coarse 300 grit / 50 micron
Fine 600 grit and Extra Coarse 180 grit

I saw the extra fine / coarse for about $130 at Wood craft and they have a kit that comes in a case with both stones, a strop, some of their honing solution, and some honing compound for the stop that is included, about $400.

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/diamond-sharpening-kit-complete

Best bang for your buck is the DMT 8" x 3" set for $226 (link is shown earlier).

The primary concern I have heard about diamond is that the diamonds leave harsher deeper scratches, which may translate into a more fragile edge. I assume that if you go with a diamond stone you probably need / want a strop with stropping compound. I am partial to the Formax Green Chrome Oxide Compound
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/green-chrome-oxide-compound-6-oz
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/micro-fine-honing-compound

If I remember correctly, when I asked the Sharpening Supplies people about it they said that their Green Honing Compound was Formax.

I hope that this helps at least a little.

[Joe Wood]

That's some Great Info Andrew!

[Russell Nugent]

I have the trend 300/1000, as well as the dmt diasharp coarse, fine and extra fine. For most of my sharpening I use the dmt's but I definitely find the trend 300 cuts much faster than the dmt coarse plate does. All mine are 3" x 8".

[William Fretwell]

I would point out that diamond hones wear out. Then you throw them away and buy water stones. My DMT grid hones reached a point where you wonder if it’s doing anything.

[Russell Nugent]

I understand that but this has been since they were new and both are only about a year old.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The Sigma ceramic waterstones are my recommendation, followed by Shapton Pro (not the glass stones). My personal selection is a Shapton Pro 1000, followed by Sigma 6000 and 13000. I use a 400 grit Atoma diamond stone for flattening. Once flattened, the stones are spritzed with a little soapy water. This prevent stiction and keeps the stones clean.

Derek, I am curious as to why you prefer the Shapton Pro Stones to the Shapton Glass stones. Is is based on the feel of the stone? You have probably answered this before but my brain has forgotten; bad brain! :rolleyes:

When I purchased my first Shapton, I was told that the difference was that the PRO stones are thicker so that you get more stone for your money.

Since that time, I have found information such as:

The Shapton Pro stones are Harder and release abrasive slower, they are formulated for more basic alloy blends of stainless and carbon steel. The Pro line is special in that each stone is formulated for a specific task.


The Glass series is considered Softer and releases abrasive faster allowing them to cut faster. (I assume this means I need to flatten the PRO stones less often). This is where the density difference comes in, the Glass stones are more dense than the pro stones making them seem harder yet still called "softer" because they wear quicker. Confusing, right?
The Glass stones don't have the same specific stone to steel formulation as the Pro's, they are simply made to be able to sharpen very hard and highly alloyed steels. These stones were originally made for the specific purpose of sharpening high end wood working chisels and that is why they are hard and promote flatness so much in the advertising.
GlassStones were developed specifically for the US market based upon experience gained from the Pro Series. Glass Stones differ in that they cut more quickly in the tougher steels such as cryogenically treated A2 common in Lie-Nielsen and Hock and Veritas blades. They are also engineered to be more economical by employing a glass base. (less sharpening material)
On the other hand, the Shapton Pro Stones feel more like traditional waterstones in use and are more tolerant of coarse flattening plates like the DMT DiaFlat-95 product which produces excellent results.
If I remember correctly, you said that you do not care for your Wine (4K Pro) stone.

I think Derek, that you have probably done more sharpening than I and are probably (therefore) more opinionated in what you like (for good reasons).

Apart from stiction and speed, most of the stones seem to work for me, just some are faster others. Hand stropping, on the other hand... I need to sit with someone who is good at that and just do it!

[steven c newman]

Hand stropping? Come on up! I have a couple that will need it, anyway....

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, I am curious as to why you prefer the Shapton Pro Stones to the Shapton Glass stones. Is is based on the feel of the stone? You have probably answered this before but my brain has forgotten; bad brain! :rolleyes:

When I purchased my first Shapton, I was told that the difference was that the PRO stones are thicker so that you get more stone for your money.

Since that time, I have found information such as:

The Glass stones don't have the same specific stone to steel formulation as the Pro's ….

If I remember correctly, you said that you do not care for your Wine (4K Pro) stone. …

Apart from stiction and speed, most of the stones seem to work for me, just some are faster others. Hand stropping, on the other hand... I need to sit with someone who is good at that and just do it! ….

Andrew, the only Shapton I use is the 1000 Pro. It was the 5000 Pro I disliked, since it loaded up and glazed over quickly no matter what I did. The 12000 is a nice stone. I prefer Sigma 6000 and 13000, and have do so for several years.

Shaptons are good stones. What I object to with the glass stones is that they wear more quickly, and you also purchase half the size of the Pro. That makes them very expensive, and unnecessarily so since I really do not see a benefit in the different formulation (also it needs to be noted that I have not “tested” them alongside one another). I rather doubt that one would see a difference unless honing full face bevels of non-laminated blades.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

I might have a chisel for Andrew to fiddle with.....
460165
I strip the paint for ya....

[Meryl Logue]

I might have a chisel for Andrew to fiddle with.....
460165
I strip the paint for ya....

That looks brutal.

[Jim Koepke]

I strip the paint for ya....


That looks brutal.

It was made more for plumbers and electricians doing rough work than those doing fine woodworking.

The Crescent chisel came with the red and blue paint.

460170

The pinkish paint was likely acquired when the chisel was doing double duty as a drop cloth.

jtk

[steven c newman]

And...cost me a whopping fifty cents yesterday, plus fifty cents for the Irwin screwdriver...

[steven c newman]

My "Sharpening Center" was in use, today..
460186
It is what it is.....
460187
Freshly sharpened Stanley chisel....cutting a bevel on some Ash....

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Hand stropping? Come on up! I have a couple that will need it, anyway....

I am over-due I think.... I need to wander out, extract knowledge, then ply you with food and drink! :-)

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Andrew, the only Shapton I use is the 1000 Pro. It was the 5000 Pro I disliked, since it loaded up and glazed over quickly no matter what I did. The 12000 is a nice stone. I prefer Sigma 6000 and 13000, and have do so for several years.

Shaptons are good stones. What I object to with the glass stones is that they wear more quickly, and you also purchase half the size of the Pro. That makes them very expensive, and unnecessarily so since I really do not see a benefit in the different formulation (also it needs to be noted that I have not “tested” them alongside one another). I rather doubt that one would see a difference unless honing full face bevels of non-laminated blades.

I have the 5K and 8K Pro stones. I have trouble with stiction on the 5K PRO while flattening backs sometimes. I am not sure I really need the improved speed of the glass stones either (since I hollow grind so I am rarely taking off a bunch of of material with them). I have a bunch of Glass stones as well, but they are not used often except for the 16K, which I use all the time. Apart from the fact that I will be taking Steven up on his offer to let me ruin some of his blades on a strop, if I was good at stropping I might not use the 16K as often.

As always, thanks for the detailed response!

Andrew

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I might have a chisel for Andrew to fiddle with.....
460165
I strip the paint for ya....

I am looking forward to having Steven show me how to gets those shaving sharp using just a strop! :D

[Rob Luter]

There have been some concerns raised about how fast the Glasstones wear versus the Shapton Pros and how often one needs to flatten with a Diamond plate. I've read a number of accounts saying that the Glasstones wear slower but cut faster than the Pros. Derek opines the opposite above, and I respect his opinion.

All that said, what I found was that after refreshing the edge on six chisels (A2) and four plane irons (A2 and PM-V11) the stone was still flat as new. I still hit it with the diamond plate briefly but basically just to verify flatness. After a whole bunch more sharpening since then I see similar performance.

The enabler that did the demo for me at Woodcraft on this system is the guy that puts on the sharpening and plane tuning clinics. He said he's had his 16K for years and sharpened thousands of edges on it during clinics and such. He goes right from a 1000 Grit Trend Diamond to the 16K Shapton. He trues it up with the 300 Grit Trend plate frequently. There was well over half of it left. I'm thinking that a hobbiest like myself will likely never need to replace it. This is certainly the case since I've added a 6K intermediate grit stone to help share the load. Whether a chisel or plane iron, it just gets a couple swipes on each grit.

[steven c newman]

Any time....

[Warren Mickley]

I don't really think using the PSA lapping films and a flat surface is more expensive in the long run. I think very few workers who switch to stones buy just a few. Most end up with a collection of stones that cancels out any of the claimed savings.

Many questionable posts in this thread, this is but one example.

"Switch to stones"? I have been sharpening seriously since 1962. I never tried sandpaper, not entirely sure what lapping films are. However, my cost is about $0.0008 per tool sharpened. And I sharpen carving tools, turning tools, molding planes, knives, razors, and more. How do your costs compare?

[Jim Koepke]

I don't really think using the PSA lapping films and a flat surface is more expensive in the long run. I think very few workers who switch to stones buy just a few. Most end up with a collection of stones that cancels out any of the claimed savings.


Many questionable posts in this thread, this is but one example.

"Switch to stones"? I have been sharpening seriously since 1962. I never tried sandpaper, not entirely sure what lapping films are. However, my cost is about $0.0008 per tool sharpened. And I sharpen carving tools, turning tools, molding planes, knives, razors, and more. How do your costs compare?

In my case more has been spent on stones than abrasive sheets. My case would be one to make Eric's case. My basic set of water stones set me back less than $200. This was many years ago. Since then a set of slip stones has been added along with a few other grits of stones purchased used. To add to this well beyond a full set of oilstones has also been added to my sharpening equipment. My finest water stone is a Norton 8000 (3µ). My desire for a finer stone has been abated over the years.

The big problem with 'Scary Sharp' is more about the inconvenience of finding fine grit sandpaper. Most retail outlets do not carry abrasive sheets beyond a 600 grit. The retailers catering to those who do automotive painting usually only carry up to a 2000 grit. My tools will need sharpening on a regular basis and running around town to purchase sandpaper isn't my idea of woodworking. If finer papers or films are needed, my project might have to wait for them to arrive from an online order.

Now, in my shop, abrasive sheets are only used when something rough has to be cleaned up. They aren't even used on wood much with the exception of on the lathe.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

There have been some concerns raised about how fast the Glasstones wear versus the Shapton Pros and how often one needs to flatten with a Diamond plate. I've read a number of accounts saying that the Glasstones wear slower but cut faster than the Pros. Derek opines the opposite above, and I respect his opinion.

My Notes state:


The Shapton Pro stones are Harder and release abrasive slower ...... The Glass series is considered Softer and releases abrasive faster allowing them to cut faster. This is where the density difference comes in, the Glass stones are more dense than the pro stones making them seem harder yet still called "softer" because they wear quicker. Its something that confused the crap out of me until I experienced both sets.

This agrees completely with what Derek said. I have not needed to flatten either very often, but that is probably more a testament as to how I use the stones than anything else.

My experiences have been similar to yours.

[steven c newman]

There are 3 Stanley No. 5002, Made in England, sitting here....needing some work.

The Crescent "Plumber's Chisel" is done. The 2 black oval handled Stanleys ( That I have found..) are done.

460322
Paint is now dry, edge is done....Good enough for a Plumber..
460323
Ooooh, look at them Blue handles....
460324
Unicorn Machine...

[Anuj Prateek]

I’m looking for an alternative to water stones as I’m tired of the mess and the constant flattening. What do people recommend? I was thinking diamond stones but they are very expensive. Are glass or ceramic stones better then water stones? I’ve seen that they are much cheaper than diamond stones but don’t know if they are less work than water. Thank you!

I have setup based on Derek's website with some difference. Instead or tormek rests I have lee valley grinder rests (were cheaper to buy). And for CBN wheels I use Lee Valley 8" wheels (again economics). I have Shapton Pro in 5k and 12k from previous setup.

After grinder it only takes few swipes on 5k and 12k to get chisels sharp. I then do a few swipes on green compound. End result is an edge that can effortlessly shave hairs and is easy to maintain.

Fresh bevel of grinder takes maybe 10 minutes end to end.

Shapton stones just need light water sprinkled and are not messy.

Link to Derek's website:

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp.html

Past:

I have a set of DMT Diasharp stones, Extra Coarse to Extra Fine. Shapton were bought along with them. DMT does not see any use any more except the Extra Coarse one. I use extra coarse to flatten Shapton. Thinking about it, I will most like sell them now.

I have tried sandpaper. They work wonderfully but I found them slow, similar to DMT. Plus maintaining edge is difficult. With hollow grind, I I can free hand on stones and edge is good to go in seconds. When non-hollow grind is needed (only for one plane blade) I still use sandpaper and jig.

I have tried worksharp as well. They are good for chisels but not plane iron (IMO) and left a flat bevel. I find flat bevel difficult to maintain.

This is a 2" chisel I sharpened yesterday. It had chips that were grinded out and then a new 25° bevel was freshly grinded. Honed edge is difficult to photograph right now. With subsequent sharpening it becomes more visible. It shaves end grains or arm hairs happily.

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[Edward Weber]

Since there have been about 100 ways to sharpen mentioned I'll add 101.
I use a granite sharpening plate, abrasive paper and a Veritas MK2 sharpening guide (I don't micro bevel)

[Joe Wood]

How important is the micro bevel, for notching and hacking out softwood timbers?

I just did fine real sharpening of this 2" chisel using the veritus jig and diamond stones. This baby's never been so sharp! Do I need that micro bevel?

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[Dave Zellers]

How important is the micro bevel, for notching and hacking out softwood timbers?

I just did fine real sharpening of this 2" chisel using the veritus jig and diamond stones. This baby's never been so sharp! Do I need that micro bevel?

Not now. Save it for the first touch up.

BTW- love the chip barrel under your work.

[Joe Wood]

So I got the 3x8" DMT diamond, I was reading that the diamonds might be a little course to start with and will smooth out after a few uses,

but I wondered, could you take the extra course and course and rub them togeter a swipe or two, same with the fine and extra fine, just to even them out a tad? After their first use, and washing with soap and a nail brush, I can feel the raised grits.

[Russell Nugent]

I wouldn't do that. Just let them wear in naturally.

[Alexander Mahmoud Helmy]

Hi everybody, new to the forum.
I started woodworking 4 years ago, thanks to Paul Sellers, I work completely by hand and sharpen all my tools freehand. Until a year ago, more or less, I used Paul Sellers’ sharpening system of 3 diamond stones (250, 600 and 1200) and a strop.
Last summer I bought a bench grinder and a 180 grit CBN wheel, inspired by Mr. Derek. After I got the CBN wheel I started using the coarser diamond stone a lot less: if I had to get that coarse I simply go to the grinder.
This winter simply out of curiosity, I bought some cheap Naniwa combination stones (220-1000 (tel:220-1000) and 1000-3000 (tel:1000-3000)) and a King 6000, I immediately realized that the sharpness I could get with this set up was on a different level. I am currently using this setup, but I don’t really like the mess and need of maintenance of the waterstones. Another disadvantage is that I developed the habit of rounding the corners of plane irons to avoid plane tracks, I tried to change and put a slight camber on the iron but I don’t really like that system.
A couple of months ago I discovered this:https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Naniwa-Diamond-Stone-P1594C3.aspx, they could be the answer I was looking for, combining the pros of diamonds with those of waterstones.
Due to the huge price tag I would like to know more about them, but the only informations I found are from knives enthusiast, does anybody here use or ever tried these stones?
Thanks, cheers from Italy.

[Elise Anna Boer]

I would point out that diamond hones wear out. Then you throw them away and buy water stones. My DMT grid hones reached a point where you wonder if it’s doing anything.


Actually, when my diamond plate was worn out I bought a new one. I have an iWood 300/1000 combination plate and my first one lasted almost 4 years. I love it because it quickly makes a burr.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Alexander and welcome to the Creek. For a long time my main sharpening set up was water stones made by Norton. The middle grade stone is a King 4000.

These are a lot less expensive than the Naniwa stones > https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Water-Stones-P25C25.aspx < don't bother with the 220 grit.

Since then most of my sharpening has been switched to using oilstones > https://www.danswhetstone.com/product/wide-bench-stones/ < my preference is for an 8X3" stone for use with wide blades. A one inch thick stone is nice but gets pricey on the finer stones. It looks like some of the stones are out of stock and some have become a bit higher priced since mine were purchased. To me there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference between Dan's soft Ark and the hard Ark.

Diamond stones tend to wear faster than other stones. Elise mentioned:

I have an iWood 300/1000 combination plate and my first one lasted almost 4 years.
They do cut faster than many of the others.

Water stones wear and can be messy. They are not hard to flatten. One can also do their sharpening in a way to reduce the need for flattening.

Natural Arkansas oilstones are becoming more expensive since natural stones are mined and the more mining, the less there is left in the ground. They tend to stay flat longer. They are slower cutting than diamond or water stones. The softer Arkansas stones like a Washita does cut faster but it also wears from use. A true Washita is difficult to find in larger sizes.

Smith's stones are carried at Lowe's and other stores. They are 6X1-3/4" for ~$20. They are a soft Arkansas stone that is decent as a first stone in a sharpening session.

jtk

[Alexander Mahmoud Helmy]

Hi Jim, thanks for your inputs.
I am aware that there are cheaper options than the naniwa stones I linked, currently I am using these: https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Naniwa-Economical-Combination-Waterstone--P559.aspx, and a King 6000. I think I paid 20€ each, more or less and I can’t say anything wrong about, except for the maintenance and mess with water that all waterstones need
(It appears from the link above that the coarse side is 120, not 220 as I stated. I never use it anyway)
Before this I used some cheap diamond plates I bought on ebay glued on some aluminum, my “poor man’s diamond plates”, in the Paul Seller’s style.
I really like the simplicity: pull out your stone holder from under the bench, spray some glass cleaner, sharpen, swipe with a rag, done!
What I don’t like is the choice of grits available for diamond stone which is, in my opinion, way too coarse: my 1200 diamond plate, well worn by years of daily use, still feels rougher than my 1000 Naniwa wetstone (I know this is not a scientific test, just my 2 cents)
Those Naniwa diamond plates caught my attention because I can replicate my diamond sharpening setup with my current waterstones grit (1000-3000-6000) and I think it could be a lifetime investment.
I never tried oilstone, since i tend to be a little messy myself I would be afraid having of staining workpieces.
Cheers from Italy