Tormek vs Scheppach Sharpening Systems [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

View Full Version : Tormek vs Scheppach Sharpening Systems

Dennis Collins

01-10-2006, 10:08 PM

Scott Coffelt

01-10-2006, 10:22 PM

I bought one in December when they had the 20% off sale. I have not used it much, but it does support many of the brand T jigs. I bought the T brand wood turnings kit, eveyrthing works but the honing wheel (different sized shaft).

The wheel is smaller on brand S, so you'll have more hollow grind. In general I am pleased with the performance. Heck, i even used the brand T cover for brand S. I am thinking maybe some babies are in the future.

Anyways, for me I was able to get the grinder, pretty much all the jigs I will use for under $400. Not bad considering folks have spent well over $800 to deck out brand T.

I was able to easily shave the hair off of my arm ont he chisels which usually is sharp enough for me.

Dennis Collins

01-10-2006, 10:27 PM

What are the effects (in regards to woodworking) of a deeper hollow grind? I understand the principal on the tool but not sure of the user impact? Maybe you have a sharper curve at the cutting edge which does what?

Thanks

Steve Schoene

01-10-2006, 11:57 PM

The hollow grind will disappear in fewer honings if it is shallow. Perhaps the edge is slightly better supported with a shallow hollow grind.

By the way, Scheppach makes a 2500 model that has a wheel very similar in size to the Tormek, but at a higher price than the 2000 model. Don't know if that is imported here or not. I saw it on a UK sellers site.

Frank Hagan

01-11-2006, 12:35 AM

I viewed the demo's on the T at sharptoolsusa, and I'm a little concerned about the way you "break the grit down but not away from the binder" with a stone when you go to remove the scratches from the coarser wheel. It makes the coarse stone fine. Does the Scheppach sharpening system use the same technique?

For some reason, this just seems hokey to me. How do you renew the wheel for coarse grinding? Grind off some of the wheel with the stone again?

Brad Olson

01-11-2006, 1:46 AM

For some reason, this just seems hokey to me. How do you renew the wheel for coarse grinding? Grind off some of the wheel with the stone again?

Yup, you are correct. These systems come with a "stone grader" that allows you the "change" the grit of the stone from coarse to fine and back again.

Mike Wenzloff

01-11-2006, 3:42 AM

Using the Tormek stone grader as it is called is simple, effective and doesn't take but a second or two. This does not wear any apprciable amount off the stone wheel.

I have used my Tormek for years--and it is used a lot by my wife, a turner. More gets worn away truing the wheel, but no more and probably less than a carefully refreshed high speed dry grinding system.

The stone grader has a coarse and fine side. Want the wheel coarse? A couple seconds with the coarse side of the stone grader. Want it fine? Likewise with the fine side.

I grew up with grinding systems, from water wheel systems [i.e. large] to stone wheels operated via treadles [still got one from the family built in the late 1800s] to most every type of industrial and shop dry grinders. The Tormek is a good piece of equipment, built to last your lifetime.

For me it is worth every penny I paid--and my wife thinks so also. Does this mean I can take a plane blade direct from it? Maybe my scrubs, but not much else. A minute to correct hand honing errors that creep in over time and a few seconds on a 4k and 8k stone finishes them off.

For turning or carving tools? It's great. Lunch-box planer knives and jointer blades are a snap. Follow the fine grading with the leather wheel and they are incredible. Worried about the hollow grinding? No problem. Just use the Tormek at a couple degrees higher than you would with a flat platter, SS or stones. This makes the bevel at the edge actually meet at the "proper angle. Finish off with a couple swipes on a stone for a great edge.

I have used the Tormek for hours at a time. It is well built.

Take care, Mike

Jeff Farris

01-11-2006, 9:22 PM

Well with all the talk about the recent Tormek withdraw from Amazon and the varied opinions about this situation, I have decided to see what the grass looks like on the other side of the fence. With that, the obvious choice to me for a sharpening system alternate to the "T" is the German built Scheppach TiGer 2000. So, does anyone own one of these units and what is your opinion of it if you do. Have you ever seen one in person. I think the blue stone opinions does potentially have some merit. (Better for HSS sharpening).

Dennis, let me preface this response by acknowledging that I make my living selling TORMEK sharpening systems. Your thread seems like the best opportunity to put the cards on the table about how the Scheppach copy cat machine stacks up to the TORMEK.

Scheppach approached us at the IWF in Atlanta in 2004, trying to lure us away from TORMEK demonstration with the promise of an equal product at a better price. Now, I have been working against price objections for 13 years, and the idea of having a price advantage for once, certainly had some appeal. However, the old saying, "You get what you pay for" could not be more appropriate when you critically compare the two systems. Which I did before telling Scheppach, "No thanks".

First let's examine the stone size and potential life. A little background for the US readers is in order first. In Europe, TORMEK sells two machines. The Model 2000 is exactly like the Model 2000 sold here in the USA - 250mm grindstone and 200mm honing wheel. The Model 1200 has a 200mm grindstone and a 145mm honing wheel. The most important point to note is that the frames are completely different designs. The 1200 is not sold in the USA for several reasons. Chief among them is the fact that by the time you rewire the motor for 110VAC 60Hz power, and ship them 4,000 miles, the price difference shrinks to the point that the 1200 loses all its appeal.

When Scheppach copied the TORMEK, they decided to offer two versions, as well. But, they are using the same frame for both large and small diameter systems. If they were offering the 250mm system in the USA, the price difference between a Sceppach and TORMEK would be so insignificant that no one would bite. So, they are selling their 200mm version here. By putting a 200mm grindstone on a frame designed for a 250mm grindstone, you greatly limit the amount of stone that can be used before you start having interference from other parts of the machine. To quantify this, it is 3-3/4" from the surface of a new TORMEK stone to the frame. It is 1-5/16" from the surface of a new Scheppach stone to the frame. Many people view the difference between the 10 inch TORMEK and 8 inch Scheppach stones as insignificant. But, when you actually look at the frames and their relationship to the stones, it becomes apparent that TORMEK offers nearly three times more usable stone! The grindstone is also 20% narrower (40mm compared to 50mm) That means that the surface is going to be working harder and breaking down quicker, thus contributing to the problem outlined above.

As far as their stone being better suited to HSS, I won't call anyone to prove that, because I truly doubt anyone who has first hand knowledge of the stone's design or manufacture could be reached by this forum to justify that statement. In my understanding of bonded abrasives, if they're saying that the stone cuts HSS faster than the TORMEK, then the stone will wear faster than the TORMEK stone, too. To cut faster, you have to have a more open grain structure, and that means faster wear. The converse of this is that the grading system, which Scheppach has also tried to copy, is most effective at exactly the grain size, bonding density, and porosity of the TORMEK grindstone. See Fine Woodworking's article this month. Tim Albers found that the Scheppach grindstone, when graded, left significantly heavier scratches than the TORMEK grindstone.

A less obvious, but very functional difference between the two grindstones is the lack of the recessed center found on the TORMEK stone. The recessed center lets you use the side of the stone to lap the backs of tool without depositing dross on the machine axle or wadding up the label. The raised surface can also be refinished and maintained flat. While a stone without the recess can be used a few times for lapping, eventually the surface will start showing more wear on the outside, and cannot be flattened.

With regard to power: One of TORMEK's original patents was their unique drive system. Scheppach has done a very poor job of copying the design. Hundreds of thousands of woodworkers -- many of them contributors here on SMC -- have watched me put the vast majority of my 240 pound weight against the grindstone of a TORMEK while it is running. I can stop a Scheppach with two fingers.

The TORMEK Universal Tool Support has included a micro-adjuster for the last couple of years. That feature has been awarded a design patent, so you won't see it on the Scheppach until the patent expires and they can copy that, too.

Scheppach copied the original AngleMaster, which TORMEK replaced 6 or 7 years ago. Instead of 4 pre-set angles that are only accurate when the stone is full-sized, the new Pro AngleMaster compensates for changes in stone diameter and allows you to accurately set any angle between 15 and 75 degrees.

A TORMEK comes with a hardcover Owner's Handbook with over 500 illustrations and step-by-step instructions. It also has a 23 minute video and a toll free number where you can get personalized help, if you need it. The Scheppach comes with a few pages of typewritten text that has been photocopied.

Three times more usable stone, vastly greater power delivery, true dual grit function, lapping for the life of the stone, micro-adjuster for angle adjustment, versatile and accurate angle setting, and outstanding documentation and technical support. Not opinion, fact.

TORMEK pioneered water-cooled sharpening. They recognize that competition is inevitable. That is why they are constantly working to update, upgrade and improve the system. It is admirable that every improvement that has been introduced can be retrofitted to machines built 20 years ago. Personally, I would have more respect for Scheppach if their copy had even one design modification that could be viewed as an advantage or improvement. As it is, I just can't see how anyone could carefully compare the two systems and decide that saving one Franklin would be worth what you give up by choosing the Scheppach.

Michael Ballent

01-12-2006, 12:10 AM

Since I have only seen the Tormek system and never having seen the Scheppach I apprecaite the fact that you have taken the time to compare the two. Especially the fact that you had the opportunity to sell the Scheppach and have chosen not to. Thanks again.

Glenn Clabo

01-12-2006, 7:51 AM

Thanks Jeff...respect for you and what you do grows.

Matt Meiser

01-12-2006, 8:17 AM

Thank you for the fact-based analysis Jeff. Is there anything on the brand S machine that you think is is better implemented than brand T?

Jeff Farris

01-12-2006, 8:54 AM

Thank you for the fact-based analysis Jeff. Is there anything on the brand S machine that you think is is better implemented than brand T?

No.

Jeff Farris
SharpToolsUSA

tod evans

01-12-2006, 9:17 AM

jeff, my thanks for the informative expose.....tod

John A. Williams

01-12-2006, 9:23 AM

Thanks Jeff for the side by side comparison. I also compared the two a while back and I think I remeber that the Scheppach spun at a faster RPM. Is that true also?
John

Scott Coffelt

01-12-2006, 9:55 AM

Thanks Jeff for the info, sounds like you have a good grasp of the two.

With that said, I still am very pleased with the S brand and will be happy with it for many years to come. I don't see me putting 240lbs of pressure on it, but if I needed to I guess I'll buy the T brand. I guess when brand T decides that the average guy can't justify a $800 system, well maybe i'll look into it.... assuming my S goes bad. I guess in 10 years when I need to buy a new wheel, I'll wish I had had bought a T brand so it would have been 30 years. :D

I will totally agree the manual on the S brand lacks in all ways ( man it's been a long time since I have seen a manual this poor, but hey if I read German it would be just as poor0, good thing is I downloaded the T brand manual for free from their website and it pretty much tells me what I want to know for the cost of a paper and ink.

Anyways, for those looking, obviously the choice is yours to make. Sounds like the T still is the cadillac of slow speed wet grinders, but IMHO the S. Tiger ain't bad.

Jay Kilpatrick

01-12-2006, 1:18 PM

TORMEK pioneered water-cooled sharpening.
TORMEK has revolutioned and continued to advance water-cooled sharpening, and I wish I could afford one... maybe I can stop feeding the cat and the kids;) ... maybe not:rolleyes: ... Ohwellll

Rejeanne Caron

03-02-2006, 6:22 PM

Jeff,
Do you ever give private lessons on the Tormek?

Reggi

Jeff Farris

03-02-2006, 8:44 PM

I've never done private lessons, but I have had a couple of requests. I spend so much time on the road with shows, that the thought of spending one of my few free weeks on a private lesson would make that lesson very expensive :D

Sorry we didn't get anywhere in New England this year. Trust me, I have been hammering on The Woodworking Show management to get back there next year.

Dave Ray

03-02-2006, 9:05 PM

Jeff, thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts/facts down for all of us.

leon greenberg

01-15-2007, 6:44 PM

Gary Hedges

11-13-2007, 11:18 AM

Copycats, knockoffs, etc are always suspect but when evaluating them or when someone else evaluates them we need to be sure of a few things, the impartiality of the evaluator, and the criteria used for evaluating/comparing the products.

With the 'T' brand wet grinder certainly a lot a forethought went into the design but as another woodcraft site evaluator mentioned, it has some weaknesses and of course the cost may well put it out of reach for many people with small shops, or home woodshop users who just need to keep a few tools sharpened.

There are other grinders beside the Scheppach and 'T' brands that deserve consideration as well, unfortunately the comments posted by Mr Farris, a sales rep for the company that bills itself as the official T brand rep. in the US, do not do that and further we have no quantitative test results. It would more useful to forum members if a non-biased evaluation could be obtained by someone who is neither a salesperson for one or products nor a prior owner of one of the evaluated products. In fairness to Mr Farris we could not expect him to point out weaknesses or drawbacks to the T brand grinder and that said I believe each of us need to evaluate a product based on our needs, abilities (tech and $$$), and a product's abililties.
This is a user forum and I believe that users should be fully aware of situation/conditions of any product comparison posted here even the informal ones. Mr Farris, provides us his view base on his experiences which, as a sales manager for the 'T' brand product cannot be considered fair and unbiased by any stretch of the imagination.

Gary Keedwell

11-13-2007, 12:15 PM

This is a user forum and I believe that users should be fully aware of situation/conditions of any product comparison posted here even the informal ones. Mr Farris, provides us his view base on his experiences which, as a sales manager for the 'T' brand product cannot be considered fair and unbiased by any stretch of the imagination

I don't think I understand your point. This forum is for all members to give their view. I see that you became a member today. Welcome to SMC. Any member that has a view contrary to Mr. Farris is welcome to give his view. Mr. Farris has told us his position up front, so I still don't understand where you are coming from.
If someone has expressed his preference for a brand and didn't tell us his bias, then you might have a legitimate gripe. We have manufacturing reps., sellers and even owners come on this forum and give their views, and as far as I know it is not under an alias.
As a matter of fact, I personally like to see manufacturers post and read the forums. It makes me feel that they really care what the consumer has to say. IMNSHO.
Gary

Wilbur Pan

11-13-2007, 3:57 PM

It would more useful to forum members if a non-biased evaluation could be obtained by someone who is neither a salesperson for one or products nor a prior owner of one of the evaluated products.

I'm guessing you might be referring to the Jet version of the Tormek, and maybe also the Makita-style horizontal wet stone grinder. I did that comparison before I bought a Tormek, so at that time I wasn't a prior owner. I went with the Tormek mainly due to the build quality of the machine. I found that with the Jet, there seemed to be misalignment issues with the arm that the various jigs ride on in relation to the stone. Also, the variety of sharpening jigs available for with the Tormek style sharpeners appealed to me, as I was primarily looking for a way to sharpen turning tools. These options didn't exist for the horizontal waterstone grinders.

That's why my wallet vote went to the Tormek. Does that make me biased now? I don't think so. I still remember and can explain my reasons for choosing to buy a Tormek.

As for the reliability of information provided by the manufacturer or sales reps for any tool/product posted on this board, of course you have to consider the source. But it doesn't mean that the information is bad, especially if it is kept to facts like Jeff Farris has done. In fact, the incentive to post factual information is probably higher since this is a public forum.

Suppose it turned out that the Scheppach stone was not narrower than the Tormek, or that there were not issues with the frame of the machine interfering with the usable life of the stone, as Jeff stated in his post. You can bet that the various wooddorking [sic] websites and forums would get plastered with posts along the lines of, "OMG did you see that the Tormek guy lied over on SMC about the Tormek what a d0rk it must sux0r WTF."

I think that manufacturers and their representatives have to be and are more careful about what they post on internet forums for exactly this reason. In fact, many corporations prohibit their employees from identifying themselves as employees when posting to a forum for exactly this reason.

So as long as Jeff Farris clearly identifies his relationship with Tormek, I'm happy to hear anything he says about the machine. It's when people who have such a relationship with a product but minimize or hide the relationship while posting that makes me uneasy.

By the way, he does a great demonstration as well. I had the pleasure of getting some very useful tips from him at a woodworking show last year, although I'm sure he doesn't remember that.

Eddie Darby

11-13-2007, 4:54 PM

If I were buying right now and had to choose between the Jet, the Scheppach, and the Tormek, I would go with the Tormek for the simple reason that I would want to get the lifetime supply of stones (3 stones actually) that they offer for free, right now. Offer expires at the end of the year.
Once this offer expires, then I would probably take a good look at the Jet system. I hear good things about the stone, and it has been out in the hands of consumers for a while now with next to no complaints.

Tormek leaflet on free stones.

http://www.tormek.us/en/leaflet/pdf/fgl_offer.pdf

Todd Hyman

11-13-2007, 10:49 PM

Chris Zenda

11-13-2007, 11:51 PM

I'd like to know how much the return Transport cost for the replacement stone is.

Wilbur Pan

11-14-2007, 8:38 AM

Probably a lot cheaper than the $139.99 that a new stone costs. ;)

(A replacement stone for the Jet is $119.99).

Carl Crout

11-14-2007, 8:52 AM

HF has a clone too. No need to pay the expensive Tormek price. Geez, how much is a motor and grinding stone worth?

Chris Zenda

11-14-2007, 10:53 AM

The Jet is on sale for $206.00 at Amazon.com, and if you apply for a Amazon credit card they'll deduct another $30.00 and free shipping applies. I was a phone call away from ordering Tormek but this really has me thinking to go Jet.

Ben Rafael

11-14-2007, 11:12 AM

Gary Hedges

11-14-2007, 4:02 PM

My point in my post is that Jeff Farris, skilled, talented at demos, whatever, is more than just a salesperson for a company. His company for which he is a sales manager, (Or president depending on how you read his bio info here) bills itself as "the United States marketing and sales support representative for the Swedish made TORMEK" As such the wise person carefully evaluates words from such people. They have a vested interest in what they say and how they say it. A quatitative comparison is important along with users comments even those of a professional woodworker. Not everyone on forums such as this is a professional woodworker or even a serious woodworker.
I appreciate reading the comments of those who consider different options as well as hearing from those who sell one brand or another. In this day and time of web forums etc it is important to look below the surface when researching reviews and comments made by impartial evaluators or whomever. To fail to do so we risk becoming another victim of scammers and the like. All one has to do to look at 'Wikipedia' and it's numerous pratfalls in 'facts' to see that the term "buyer beware" is no less important today that in years past.
That said I am certain that the Tormek may well be the greatest sharpener around for those who are willing to invest deeply in such a capability. Otherwise, the local professional tool sharpening shop along with a modest wet grinder or bench grinder may be the wiser choice for those of us with limited budgets.

Gary Keedwell

11-14-2007, 4:47 PM

Glenn Clabo

11-14-2007, 5:32 PM

New member...3 posts...all on one subject...things that make you go Hhhhhmmmm!

Chris Zenda

11-14-2007, 5:55 PM

New member...3 posts...all on one subject...things that make you go Hhhhhmmmm!

Hhhhhmmmm what???

Glenn Clabo

11-14-2007, 6:19 PM

Things that make you go "Hmmm"

Author unknown

Why do we park in driveways and drive on parkways?
Do Lipton employees take coffee breaks?
Can I yell "movie" in a crowded firehouse?
Can you be a closet claustrophobic?
How do a fool and his money GET together?
Why does Hawaii have interstate highways?
How is it that a building burns up as it burns down?
If a train station is where the train stops, what is a workstation?
If nothing ever sticks to Teflon, how do they make Teflon stick to the pan?
If the pen is mightier than the sword, and a picture is worth a thousand words, how dangerous is a fax?
If the police arrest a mime, do they tell him he has the right to remain silent?
What hair color do they put on the driver's licenses of bald men?
What was the best thing before sliced bread?
Why do banks charge you a "non-sufficient funds" fee on money they already know you don't have?
Why do they put Braille on the drive through bank machines?
If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?
If you get cheated by the Better Business Bureau, who do you complain to?
What are Preparation A through Preparation G?
In a country of free speech, why are there phone bills?
Did Washington flash a quarter when asked for ID?
How come there aren't B batteries?
If the post office has machines that can sort snail mail at 1000's of times per minute, then why do they give it to a little old man on a bike to deliver?
How do "Do not walk on the grass" signs get there?
Why do black olives come in cans and green olives come in jars?
Before they invented drawing boards, what did they go back to?
How is it possible to have a civil war?
If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
If the #2 pencil is so popular, why is it still #2?
Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song?
If I melt dry ice, can I take a bath without getting wet?
Crime doesn't pay...does that mean that my job is a crime?
How do they get the deer to cross at that yellow road sign?
How do you know that honesty is the best policy until you have tried some of the others?
How do you throw away a garbage can?
How does a thermos know if the drink should be hot or cold?
How does the guy who drives the snowplow get to work in the mornings?
Do you realize how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?
If a word in the dictionary were misspelled, how would we know?
If you're in a vehicle going the speed of light, what happens when you turn on the headlights?
What happens to an 18 hour bra after 18 hours?
Why didn't Noah swat those two mosquitoes?
Why do hot dogs come 10 to a package and hot dog buns only 8?
Why do tourists go to the tops of tall buildings and then put money into telescopes so they can see things on the ground close-up?
Why is it that bullets ricochet off of Superman's chest, but he ducks when the gun is thrown at him?
Why is it that night falls but day breaks?
Why is it that you must wait until night to call it a day?
What if the Hokey Pokey IS what its all about?
When your pet bird sees you reading the newspaper, does he wonder why you're just sitting there, staring at carpeting?
What happened to the first 6 "ups"?

Gary Keedwell

11-14-2007, 6:28 PM

I wonder how long Glenn waited before someone said "Hhhhhmmmm what?" ?

Gary

Glenn Clabo

11-14-2007, 6:31 PM

23 minutes...:rolleyes:

Gary Keedwell

11-14-2007, 6:33 PM

23 minutes...:rolleyes:
Hhhhhmmmm;)

Chris Zenda

11-14-2007, 6:40 PM

Hhhhhmmmm;)

I'm literally waiting for stain to dry and I was bored.;)

Gary Keedwell

11-14-2007, 6:44 PM

I'm literally waiting for stain to dry and I was bored.;)
Wow..that must be on the same level as watching the grass grow.:p :D

Gary

Wes Bischel

11-14-2007, 8:19 PM

How come there aren't B batteries?

There are (were)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_battery_(vacuum_tubes)

:D :D
Wes

Matt Lentzner

11-16-2007, 6:52 PM

The Scheppach is selling for $131.90 on Amazon right now - if you're ready to buy.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000BOLGE4/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance

Brad Olson

11-16-2007, 11:35 PM

And the Jet for $185 at Amazon as well.

Heck of a deal on either, and not likely to stay for very long

David Weaver

11-19-2007, 9:45 AM

Speaking only for myself, I appreciate that Jeff takes the time and reads and responds to the posters here at SMC. Every question I had for Jeff was answered. If I remember correctly he also responded to my E-mail questions in a timely fashion. Being new here Mr. Hedges, you will learn that most of the tool shoppers here at the Creek are well informed, and do alot of researching before they purchase. That being said, a little reminder of the dangers that lurk around corners, is appreciated by me and probably others.:)

Gary

I agree exactly with what the "new" Gary is saying. While Jeff may be presenting facts, to assume that they're unbiased is a pretty rosy view of the world. Ignoring that you can convince yourself of things subconsciously if you have incentives tied to something is a good way to prevent yourself from getting an objective view of things.

I would also like to see a comparison by someone who:
1) Doesn't sell any of the machines
2) Doesn't own a machine that they consider such a significant outlay as to need to justify to themselves that they made the right purchase.

3 posts or not, Gary has a very relevant point. Does anyone on here think that Jeff, no matter how nice of a person he is, will point out the strong points of any competitive machine?

I will not buy a machine that I consider to be inferior, but at the same time, i will never buy a Tormek because their pricing is ludicrous and we've had at least one mention on here of off-the-record threats if there are sales below a certain price level - something I thought only Festool liked to do (though I guess they plainly state it in writing).

Besides, $9 for a honing jig, and I can create a nice flat grind with a 220 grit belt - one where the strength of the bevel isn't compromised by a hollow.

So...if anyone owns several of the machines and uses them in a shop environment, we'd like to hear your thoughts.

Eric Gustafson

11-19-2007, 11:56 AM

I would also like to see a comparison by someone who:
1) Doesn't sell any of the machines
2) Doesn't own a machine that they consider such a significant outlay as to need to justify to themselves that they made the right purchase.

In the absence of someone buying and reviewing both machines (nobody has yet) having someone like Jeff at least list the features that he believes sets his machine over the competition gives us all a good starting point for evaluation. When I make a significant purchase, I want to hear what the salesperson has to say, what an unbiased person will say, and what I research above that.

I own the Tormek, for which, I got the entire setup used for less that one would have to pay for the Jet machine alone (gloat.) So I am clearly a happy camper. My BIL owns the Jet, for which all my attachments will fit. He is a happy camper. There are some things I like better about mine and some things I like better about his. If I had money to burn I would sell mine and buy the newest Tormek, since it comes with three stones of varying grit.

Brad Olson

11-19-2007, 12:14 PM

Try google and you'll find two head-to-heads with the Jet. Woodnet has several informal comps too

http://www.joewoodworker.com/tormek.htm
http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/jettormekcomparo.html

Gary Keedwell

11-19-2007, 12:32 PM

[QUOTE]
Really? 3 different grits? I was under the asumption that the stone provided changed the grits when you dress it.
Gary

Wilbur Pan

11-19-2007, 12:57 PM

Also, here's some information from this person, who purchased a Jet, then returned it to get a Tormek, due to alignment issues with the guide bar and other build quality issues.

http://www.yucholian.com/woodwk/jet_sharpener.htm
http://www.yucholian.com/woodwk/tormek.htm

BTW, I think the three stones issue is referring to the current offer from Tormek to supply you with replacement stones, up to three, as you use them up.

Matt Lentzner

11-20-2007, 8:13 PM

Scheppach: $119

Jet: $167

If you already purchased, make sure to get a refund with your 30 day price guarantee.

(I wonder if Mr. Bezos is trying to punish Tormek?)

Eric Gustafson

11-20-2007, 9:35 PM

[quote]
Really? 3 different grits? I was under the asumption that the stone provided changed the grits when you dress it.
Gary

It must have been a dream I had. :o I got it wrong. When the new Tormek had come out I thought that is what I had read. My bad. sorry. :rolleyes:

Jim Kountz

11-22-2007, 7:19 AM

Ok Eric, go to your room until you can learn to stop that!!:D:D:D:D

herb fellows

02-18-2008, 8:54 AM

Ok Eric, go to your room until you can learn to stop that!!:D:D:D:D
Hi. I'm new to this sharpening business so I'll admit my ignorance right up front. Amazon has a 'work sharp 3000' on sale for $160. As i didn't even see it mentioned here, is this just totally out of the running or...?
I do know the Tormek is a Rolls Royce, but my budget only allows for a Chevy.

Dan Blaylock

01-06-2009, 2:45 PM

Scheppach: $119

Jet: $167

I have a question here.

At the end of his (very informative and much appreciated) comparison of the Tormek versus the Scheppach, Jeff Farris notes that to purchase the cheaper machine will *save a Franklin*.

This seems to indicate that the Tormek machine can be bought somewhere for around $219.00 ($119 + $100)

If this is actually the case, I can easily see where the extra hundred dollars would be money well spent........but so far, I haven't seen where the Tormek can be bought for that price.

???

Michael Gibbons

01-06-2009, 6:19 PM

Dan, the machine you mention might be the smaller Tormek that they once sold. It was nowhere near as heavy duty as the current model which I paid $389.00 about 6 years ago. It is just about time for a new stone but other than that it's still rock solid. Don't let the new price for the T-7 system scare you off though. They changed and added some things that weren't available when I bought mine. The horizontal support which was an accessory, was added as standard equipment shortly after I sent in my owners registration card-don't know if I had any influence on that decision or not, but hey. The diamond truing tool, improved tool rest, improved square edge jig and stainless main shaft would make me buy one again. At Woodcraft, the price difference between Tormek and Jet for both complete set-ups is only about $80. Go with the inventor/innovator not the imitator.

Dan Blaylock

01-07-2009, 2:36 AM

Dan, the machine you mention might be the smaller Tormek that they once sold. It was nowhere near as heavy duty as the current model which I paid $389.00 about 6 years ago..........At Woodcraft, the price difference between Tormek and Jet for both complete set-ups is only about $80. Go with the inventor/innovator not the imitator.

My point here Michael was that even though Jeff Farris, in post #8 on this thread, gave a very informative (and I have no doubt it was very accurate also) comparison of the Tormek versus the Scheppach, he ended his post by stating that a person buying the Scheppach sharpener would save **one Franklin**.......i.e., $100.00

While his post provided some extremely helpful information --for which I commend him-- in pointing out the superior quality of the Tormek and went a long way toward helping people to choose between the two, he finished it with what seems to have been a bit of a misrepresentation of the comparative costs of the two machines, no matter which current Tormek model we might be talking about.

Wilbur Pan

01-07-2009, 7:38 AM

If you look at the date of Jeff Farris' post, it was from Nov. 2006. Prices have changed since then, and my recollection is that the Scheppach machine was just about $100 cheaper than what the Tormek was selling for at that time.

Michael Gibbons

01-07-2009, 7:16 PM

Dan, When I listen to Jeff Farris, he seems to be an honest guy trying to sell the best equipment available. Not trying to change the discussion too much, you can also look at the Jet clone of the Tormek and you have about an equal $100.00 savings ( when it was the 2000 series and before the add-ons). Jeff did a comparison on that one and it wasn't even close. Sometimes that extra Franklin or two has a significant affect on our buying decision. When I saw the Scheppach at Woodcraft, I don't recall any optional jigs or accessories for sale. When I looked at it and handled it it didn't seem as well built as the Tormek. Dan, try and find someone near you who has one of the machines and try'em before you buy 'em. Good Luck. BTW there are a few more heated threads about these same sharpeners somewhere else on the forums.

Wilbur Pan

01-07-2009, 7:50 PM

Dan,

Just to illustrate the build quality issue, here are pictures of the Tormek T-3, and the Scheppach Tiger 2000, which is the T-3 clone that currently sells for about $120 on sale, and lists for $375(!). There are some clear differences that you can see from these pictures. The Tormek has a more robust mechanism that clamps the guide bar in place. The base of the Tormek is better designed, with more metal being used. The machining on the guide bar on the Tormek is much more neatly done than on the Scheppach.

I also found picture of the jigs that allow you to set the angle for grinding on both machines. It's obvious that the Tormek has the nicer jig.

Now, do all these build quality things matter? Maybe, maybe not. But people say the same things about the need for drawers made with dovetails as opposed to butt joints nailed together.

Thomas Marr

01-10-2009, 10:59 AM

Maybe I missed something in this thread...but isn't Grizzly selling the larger Scheppach (250 mm)? Isn't that a better comparison to the full size Tormek?

Douglas Brummett

03-04-2009, 12:35 PM

Maybe I missed something in this thread...but isn't Grizzly selling the larger Scheppach (250 mm)? Isn't that a better comparison to the full size Tormek?
I got your comparison right here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADtSziD9N3A

Nice isn't it. You won't see quality like that pouring out of the Tormek factory :)

LARRY WALDEN

03-17-2009, 8:33 PM

Received my Grizzly Sharpener yesterday and the wheel is round and does not wobble. At 170 it is a bargain. I saw the wobbly video before I ordered. I also have several other sharpeners. I use a makita flat wheel for planer blades. Slow regular grinders for shaping. Wolverine jig for gouges. Will try to make jigs for other tools.

Louis Rucci

03-17-2009, 8:45 PM

Jeff,

I bought a Tormek about 5years ago and haven't used it yet. Are the new features on the latest model available for me?

I'll get my model number when I get home later tonight.

>Louis

TORMEK pioneered water-cooled sharpening. They recognize that competition is inevitable. That is why they are constantly working to update, upgrade and improve the system. It is admirable that every improvement that has been introduced can be retrofitted to machines built 20 years ago. Personally, I would have more respect for Scheppach if their copy had even one design modification that could be viewed as an advantage or improvement. As it is, I just can't see how anyone could carefully compare the two systems and decide that saving one Franklin would be worth what you give up by choosing the Scheppach.

Jeff Farris

03-18-2009, 7:24 AM

Jeff,

I bought a Tormek about 5years ago and haven't used it yet. Are the new features on the latest model available for me?

I'll get my model number when I get home later tonight.

>Louis

Louis,

Go to http://www.tormekstore.com and click the link for "Upgrades & Replacements". All of the retrofits are available there. Most notably since you bought your machine would be the cast and machined dual lock horizontal base (XB-100) and the Universal Support with calibrated micro-adjuster (US-105). If you haven't used that machine yet, I will caution you to clean and dry the machine carefully after each use. It is of an age that predates our stainless steel main shaft, stone washers and stone nut. Without careful maintenance, the stone and main shaft can fuse together making stone replacement difficult to impossible (without replacing the shaft, too).

Anthony Whitesell

03-18-2009, 7:48 AM

Larry,

What do you think of the Makita flat wheel? I'm thinking of getting on myself. How do you think it would fair with hand plane blades?

Anthony

Floyd Westbrook

04-27-2009, 4:57 PM

I got your comparison right here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADtSziD9N3A

Nice isn't it. You won't see quality like that pouring out of the Tormek factory :)

I know it's bad form to dig up posts from the past, especially as my first post here, while lurking a noticed this post and felt I could help clarify this Grizzly problem.
As an ex Grizzly wet sharpener owner (now the proud owner of a Tormek T-7), the machine in the YouTube video (which isn't mine, but i had experienced the same wobble) isn't out of round nor bad quality, they are shipped with the stone off the shaft and a cardboard spacer tube where the stone goes, unfortunatelythe shaft slides around and being a shouldered shaft it tends to drop off the shoulders and rests on the narrower section . If you don't know this happened, (as I didn't) and assemble the wheel to the machine, it induces a wobble as seen in the video.
Fortunately I investigated the wobble and slid the shaft fully into the machine, onto the shoulders, and the stone and hone ran true.
The reason I've replaced the Grizzly for the Tormek, was stone life, which is TERRIBLE with the Grizzly blue stone wheel, as well as the Swedish machine being far superior in holding a tight tolerance in stone to rest clearance/repeatability.

Danny Burns

04-28-2009, 9:31 AM

Was it possible to run another stone on the Grizzly unit?

I am wondering if the shafts on all these machines are the same diameter of
12mm? The Grizzly unit is made in Germany, so may be 12 mm is the diameter?

Also I see that the Grizzly replacement stone is only $49.95, so it would take at least 3 of these wheels to match the cost of the cheapest Tormek wheel.

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=20262

Did the Grizzly wheel sharpen okay, and it was just an issue of wear?

P.S. I downloaded the Grizzly manual and it lists the shaft at 1/2".

Floyd Westbrook

04-30-2009, 4:06 PM

Mr. Burns,
The Grizzly unit sharpened fine with a few minor problems,
First, was the mentioned repeatability, without the marks/stop nut on the angle guide it was impossible to make a "recipe" as Tormek calls them, where you record the height of the angle bar/marks on the jig or distance from tool edge to jig face/dia. of stone/etc. so the next time you need to sharpen that tool it is very easy to get an angle extremely close to original (without having to use a marker to color the bevel or if you were to re-grind a new tool to match an existing one.
Second, was an annoying tendency for the stone to pick up loose grit from the water, these fast wearing stones deposited a lot of grit in the bath (at least for me), after rough grinding the tool and surfacing the stone with the conditioner, I would change the water and rinse out the grit then smooth grind the tool. If I didn't do this it seemed the stone would grab a few rough grits from the bath and make the smooth grind frustrating.
All in all, the Grizzly unit works, and for an occasional user or someone that has the patience to work through the limitations it would be fine.

Burt Alcantara

04-30-2009, 7:54 PM

I had the Grizzly model for 1 day. The grinding wheel would not stay on, the honing wheel was warped beyond usefulness (Grizzly said they'd send a replacement), there was substantial wobble, the overall fit and finish of the unit I received was cheesy -- spots of rust, a lot of misalignment of parts, ill fitting hanger bar, bad noise in the motor.

I sent it back, took a restocking fee hit and bought the T7 at Woodcraft before I even sent the T10010 back. Fortunately, I got the T7 for 20% off.

Though I'm a turner, I bought the T7 for kitchen knives. I can shave with my kitchen knives (with help from a ceramic "steel") and pretty much everything that gets kissed on the T7 is, to use the phrase, scary sharp. I get good edges on my turning tools but I'm still slower then my Wolverine but time and experience will take care of that.

In my opinion, the T10010 is good for some sharpening but I doubt I could get shaving sharp edges on it especially with the wobble (which the manual says is normal). However, that's not to say you cant.

I still think the T7 is overpriced but I'm not aware of any single station solution that would do all of my sharpening tasks.

Ann Margolies

05-18-2014, 8:09 AM

Jeff, I read your very professional comparison of Tiger vs Tormek on the sawmillcreek site. I live in Europe, carve with gouges, follow Chris Pye, and think I'm ready for a power grinder. I'm a small female amateur carver. Because we have the Tormeck T-3 over here at a reasonable price, but also the Scheppack Tiger 3, I would greatly appreciate your expert opinion.

Dennis, let me preface this response by acknowledging that I make my living selling TORMEK sharpening systems. Your thread seems like the best opportunity to put the cards on the table about how the Scheppach copy cat machine stacks up to the TORMEK.

Scheppach approached us at the IWF in Atlanta in 2004, trying to lure us away from TORMEK demonstration with the promise of an equal product at a better price. Now, I have been working against price objections for 13 years, and the idea of having a price advantage for once, certainly had some appeal. However, the old saying, "You get what you pay for" could not be more appropriate when you critically compare the two systems. Which I did before telling Scheppach, "No thanks".

First let's examine the stone size and potential life. A little background for the US readers is in order first. In Europe, TORMEK sells two machines. The Model 2000 is exactly like the Model 2000 sold here in the USA - 250mm grindstone and 200mm honing wheel. The Model 1200 has a 200mm grindstone and a 145mm honing wheel. The most important point to note is that the frames are completely different designs. The 1200 is not sold in the USA for several reasons. Chief among them is the fact that by the time you rewire the motor for 110VAC 60Hz power, and ship them 4,000 miles, the price difference shrinks to the point that the 1200 loses all its appeal.

When Scheppach copied the TORMEK, they decided to offer two versions, as well. But, they are using the same frame for both large and small diameter systems. If they were offering the 250mm system in the USA, the price difference between a Sceppach and TORMEK would be so insignificant that no one would bite. So, they are selling their 200mm version here. By putting a 200mm grindstone on a frame designed for a 250mm grindstone, you greatly limit the amount of stone that can be used before you start having interference from other parts of the machine. To quantify this, it is 3-3/4" from the surface of a new TORMEK stone to the frame. It is 1-5/16" from the surface of a new Scheppach stone to the frame. Many people view the difference between the 10 inch TORMEK and 8 inch Scheppach stones as insignificant. But, when you actually look at the frames and their relationship to the stones, it becomes apparent that TORMEK offers nearly three times more usable stone! The grindstone is also 20% narrower (40mm compared to 50mm) That means that the surface is going to be working harder and breaking down quicker, thus contributing to the problem outlined above.

As far as their stone being better suited to HSS, I won't call anyone to prove that, because I truly doubt anyone who has first hand knowledge of the stone's design or manufacture could be reached by this forum to justify that statement. In my understanding of bonded abrasives, if they're saying that the stone cuts HSS faster than the TORMEK, then the stone will wear faster than the TORMEK stone, too. To cut faster, you have to have a more open grain structure, and that means faster wear. The converse of this is that the grading system, which Scheppach has also tried to copy, is most effective at exactly the grain size, bonding density, and porosity of the TORMEK grindstone. See Fine Woodworking's article this month. Tim Albers found that the Scheppach grindstone, when graded, left significantly heavier scratches than the TORMEK grindstone.

A less obvious, but very functional difference between the two grindstones is the lack of the recessed center found on the TORMEK stone. The recessed center lets you use the side of the stone to lap the backs of tool without depositing dross on the machine axle or wadding up the label. The raised surface can also be refinished and maintained flat. While a stone without the recess can be used a few times for lapping, eventually the surface will start showing more wear on the outside, and cannot be flattened.

With regard to power: One of TORMEK's original patents was their unique drive system. Scheppach has done a very poor job of copying the design. Hundreds of thousands of woodworkers -- many of them contributors here on SMC -- have watched me put the vast majority of my 240 pound weight against the grindstone of a TORMEK while it is running. I can stop a Scheppach with two fingers.

The TORMEK Universal Tool Support has included a micro-adjuster for the last couple of years. That feature has been awarded a design patent, so you won't see it on the Scheppach until the patent expires and they can copy that, too.

Scheppach copied the original AngleMaster, which TORMEK replaced 6 or 7 years ago. Instead of 4 pre-set angles that are only accurate when the stone is full-sized, the new Pro AngleMaster compensates for changes in stone diameter and allows you to accurately set any angle between 15 and 75 degrees.

A TORMEK comes with a hardcover Owner's Handbook with over 500 illustrations and step-by-step instructions. It also has a 23 minute video and a toll free number where you can get personalized help, if you need it. The Scheppach comes with a few pages of typewritten text that has been photocopied.

Three times more usable stone, vastly greater power delivery, true dual grit function, lapping for the life of the stone, micro-adjuster for angle adjustment, versatile and accurate angle setting, and outstanding documentation and technical support. Not opinion, fact.

TORMEK pioneered water-cooled sharpening. They recognize that competition is inevitable. That is why they are constantly working to update, upgrade and improve the system. It is admirable that every improvement that has been introduced can be retrofitted to machines built 20 years ago. Personally, I would have more respect for Scheppach if their copy had even one design modification that could be viewed as an advantage or improvement. As it is, I just can't see how anyone could carefully compare the two systems and decide that saving one Franklin would be worth what you give up by choosing the Scheppach.

Andrew Pitonyak

05-18-2014, 8:56 AM

I have the tormek and it pretty much works as advertised.
However, I still prefer to use stones for sharpening my chisels and plane blades, it is much faster than the tormek(at least for me).
For sharpening turning tools the tormek is great, but I prefer to use the wolverine jigs instead of the tormek jigs. Frankly, the wolverine jigs are infinitely better the tormek jigs. The wolverine jigs are easier and faster to setup. I was previously using a slow speed grinder to sharpen my turning tools, but the tormek is much better because bluing is not an issue with it.

Are you saying that you use Wolerine jigs your Tormek?

Also, the first post begins with "Tormek withdraw from Amazon". What does this mean? Did Tormek used to sell direct on Amazon and they no longer do?

I own a Tormek, I love it. I tried many things before purchased one. I found the Tormek to be the fastest way (of all the things that I owned, and still own... assuming I am not doing a major repair) to establish an initial hollow grind, then, as you say, I use my stones to touch it up before and during use.

You say that you prefer to use stones for some things because it is faster. Do you mean it is always faster, or only after you have done something else to the blade?

I suppose that things could be faster on the Tormek if I had it setup in a dedicated always ready location. I store it and then pull it when I need it. But, I spend more time with touch-up and I am not good enough to free hand that on my Tormek.

Also, I have never been able to flatten the back of anything on the side wheel of the Tormek. I could not do it on my Worksharp either. I was never able to hit the wide spinning surface straight on without at least putting some sort of nick along the side, so, I stopped trying.

Side Note: I found the Tormek to be the easiest to use as a beginner to sharpening. Well, i say beginner, but, I sharpened for a few years using other methods before I spent the money on a Tormek.

Ann Margolies

05-22-2014, 5:02 AM

Being in Europe, as a woman amateur carver, would you recommend the T3 for one who has never had or used a power grinder?

Dennis, let me preface this response by acknowledging that I make my living selling TORMEK sharpening systems. Your thread seems like the best opportunity to put the cards on the table about how the Scheppach copy cat machine stacks up to the TORMEK.

Scheppach approached us at the IWF in Atlanta in 2004, trying to lure us away from TORMEK demonstration with the promise of an equal product at a better price. Now, I have been working against price objections for 13 years, and the idea of having a price advantage for once, certainly had some appeal. However, the old saying, "You get what you pay for" could not be more appropriate when you critically compare the two systems. Which I did before telling Scheppach, "No thanks".

First let's examine the stone size and potential life. A little background for the US readers is in order first. In Europe, TORMEK sells two machines. The Model 2000 is exactly like the Model 2000 sold here in the USA - 250mm grindstone and 200mm honing wheel. The Model 1200 has a 200mm grindstone and a 145mm honing wheel. The most important point to note is that the frames are completely different designs. The 1200 is not sold in the USA for several reasons. Chief among them is the fact that by the time you rewire the motor for 110VAC 60Hz power, and ship them 4,000 miles, the price difference shrinks to the point that the 1200 loses all its appeal.

When Scheppach copied the TORMEK, they decided to offer two versions, as well. But, they are using the same frame for both large and small diameter systems. If they were offering the 250mm system in the USA, the price difference between a Sceppach and TORMEK would be so insignificant that no one would bite. So, they are selling their 200mm version here. By putting a 200mm grindstone on a frame designed for a 250mm grindstone, you greatly limit the amount of stone that can be used before you start having interference from other parts of the machine. To quantify this, it is 3-3/4" from the surface of a new TORMEK stone to the frame. It is 1-5/16" from the surface of a new Scheppach stone to the frame. Many people view the difference between the 10 inch TORMEK and 8 inch Scheppach stones as insignificant. But, when you actually look at the frames and their relationship to the stones, it becomes apparent that TORMEK offers nearly three times more usable stone! The grindstone is also 20% narrower (40mm compared to 50mm) That means that the surface is going to be working harder and breaking down quicker, thus contributing to the problem outlined above.

As far as their stone being better suited to HSS, I won't call anyone to prove that, because I truly doubt anyone who has first hand knowledge of the stone's design or manufacture could be reached by this forum to justify that statement. In my understanding of bonded abrasives, if they're saying that the stone cuts HSS faster than the TORMEK, then the stone will wear faster than the TORMEK stone, too. To cut faster, you have to have a more open grain structure, and that means faster wear. The converse of this is that the grading system, which Scheppach has also tried to copy, is most effective at exactly the grain size, bonding density, and porosity of the TORMEK grindstone. See Fine Woodworking's article this month. Tim Albers found that the Scheppach grindstone, when graded, left significantly heavier scratches than the TORMEK grindstone.

A less obvious, but very functional difference between the two grindstones is the lack of the recessed center found on the TORMEK stone. The recessed center lets you use the side of the stone to lap the backs of tool without depositing dross on the machine axle or wadding up the label. The raised surface can also be refinished and maintained flat. While a stone without the recess can be used a few times for lapping, eventually the surface will start showing more wear on the outside, and cannot be flattened.

With regard to power: One of TORMEK's original patents was their unique drive system. Scheppach has done a very poor job of copying the design. Hundreds of thousands of woodworkers -- many of them contributors here on SMC -- have watched me put the vast majority of my 240 pound weight against the grindstone of a TORMEK while it is running. I can stop a Scheppach with two fingers.

The TORMEK Universal Tool Support has included a micro-adjuster for the last couple of years. That feature has been awarded a design patent, so you won't see it on the Scheppach until the patent expires and they can copy that, too.

Scheppach copied the original AngleMaster, which TORMEK replaced 6 or 7 years ago. Instead of 4 pre-set angles that are only accurate when the stone is full-sized, the new Pro AngleMaster compensates for changes in stone diameter and allows you to accurately set any angle between 15 and 75 degrees.

A TORMEK comes with a hardcover Owner's Handbook with over 500 illustrations and step-by-step instructions. It also has a 23 minute video and a toll free number where you can get personalized help, if you need it. The Scheppach comes with a few pages of typewritten text that has been photocopied.

Three times more usable stone, vastly greater power delivery, true dual grit function, lapping for the life of the stone, micro-adjuster for angle adjustment, versatile and accurate angle setting, and outstanding documentation and technical support. Not opinion, fact.

TORMEK pioneered water-cooled sharpening. They recognize that competition is inevitable. That is why they are constantly working to update, upgrade and improve the system. It is admirable that every improvement that has been introduced can be retrofitted to machines built 20 years ago. Personally, I would have more respect for Scheppach if their copy had even one design modification that could be viewed as an advantage or improvement. As it is, I just can't see how anyone could carefully compare the two systems and decide that saving one Franklin would be worth what you give up by choosing the Scheppach.

Jim German

05-22-2014, 8:39 AM

Folks, the original posting in this thread is like 8 years old, and it was last revived 5 years ago.

Ann, Welcome to Sawmill Creek, you might want to start a new thread, and don't expect an answer from Jeff, as he hasn't been on the site in over a year. You could try PMing him though.