I can't sharpen my block plane

[Tim Booher]

After watching several videos online, I purchased the Model SS2 sharpening sled from Alisam engineering. (http://www.alisam.com/alisam-sharpening.html) After working with this for a long time, I still can't get a consistent edge without faceting up the blade. I'm using Razorri Knife Sharpening Stone Kit, Double-Sided 400/1000 and 3000/8000 Grit Whetstones and generally following their directions.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07YDLHGWW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.theboohers.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Chisel.jpg

I tried to make sure the blade was perpendicular to the stone and to make sure I was working on a level surface.

As it is, I now have a dull faceted blade. How do I fix this? I'm thinking about using a chisel to get a straight surface, or even a grinder, but that seems sloppy.

I also looked up my block plane and measured the existing angle to be 25 degrees, but isn't their always a second bevel on a block plane.

I greatly appreciate advice on improving my technique. I'm also up for other product/system recommendations, but would be especially appreciative of any tips to get my current system working.

[Rafael Herrera]

I would make sure your iron is secure in the guide first. Nowadays I only use a guide to reprofile the bevel of my irons on a coarse medium, the rest of the sharpening is done by hand. If you are using your guide for the whole process, I would suggest that only apply pressure only while dragging the iron towards you, assuming the stone is laid out lengthwise away from you. The reason for it is that if you are going back and forth, you may be wobbling. Once you get a burr switch to the next grit.

With the guide, you'll get a single bevel, if you reset the iron to get a secondary bevel you'll loose the alignment and likely screw up the edge. Don't worry about a secondary bevel at this time.

[Derek Cohen]

I've never used one of those guides. Never even wanted to try one (and I've tried most). They simply do not make sense to me. The guides runs along and on each side the stone?? If this is so, with a waterstone stone wearing, the bevel cannot maintain a constant angle. It will be all over the place. These guides can only work (ha!) if used with stones which maintain a constant height, such as a diamond stone. The absolute worst case scenario would be a collection of stones with varying heights. You will end up with a facetted, rounded bevel. And there is no telling which, if any, stone would create a wire edge.

Get yourself one of the new, inexpensive Veritas guides, or and an Eclipse-copy.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

I tried to make sure the blade was perpendicular to the stone and to make sure I was working on a level surface.

It looks like the blade may have not been parallel to the surface of the stone. If the stone isn't perfectly square, this can happen with this type of guide even on a perfectly flat, level surface.

Tim, this is where having your location can help. You may be near another member who would be willing to offer some help with your sharpening.

jtk

[Tim Booher]

Thanks, some great ideas here. I live close to NYC (Westfield, NJ), but now work in Fort Worth Texas so I'm back and forth a lot between the two locations. I would love to practice with someone on this and am willing to travel, even fly somewhere to learn.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

First, get some sort of magnifying thing to look at the blade. I prefer a 10x loop. This will let you see what is going on.

Is the back flat up to the edge?


If you give up and there is nobody near you to give you a hand, send the blade to me and I will put on a hollow grind (tell me the angle you want). Then, I will send it back. I am not a professional, nor am I the best sharpener here, but my blades cut. And you may not want a hollow grind on your blade. With a hollow grind, it is easier to free hand the blade so i just free hand after I put on the hollow grind.

[scott lipscomb]

"First, get some sort of magnifying thing to look at the blade. I prefer a 10x loop. This will let you see what is going on. "

This is great advice. To me, seeing exactly what you are doing to the edge and bevel makes knowing what to do much more obvious. I recently discovered the magnifier on my iPhone, which is awesome for looking at blade edges.

Then I started looked at my cuticles, and grossed myself out.

By the way, for me, I usually set the primary bevel on a grinder with an Ian Kirby style jig, then develop a secondary bevel freehand on a stone(s) and finish with a loaded strop. I don't use a guide (after the grinder).

[Jim Matthews]

It looks like the blade may have not been parallel to the surface of the stone. If the stone isn't perfectly square, this can happen with this type of guide even on a perfectly flat, level surface.



jtk

Plus which, no mention of flattening the stones in the OP.

I'm guessing the guide *is* tracking along a plane, but the stone is dished.

[Tracy Roberts]

Feel your pain, we've all been there. It's hard to figure out the problem without seeing your process. From the pic it looks like there's a lot of material to be removed before the primary bevel is flat. Maybe your rubbing too hard and the blade is moving in the jig and/or the jig is flexing All I can do is to offer what I would do were it my blade. First to the grinder to restore the primary bevel keeping it cool to not mess up the temper. The new bevel is hollow ground so the heal and edge of the bevel can rest on the stone and act as a guide. I would then by hand go to the 1K stone and work the heal and edge just until the grind marks are gone. Check the back of the blade to make sure there's a bur along the complete length of the edge. If not then back to the 1K until there is. For me, checking the bur is one of the keys to sharpening because it gives you a real indication of whether you've sharpened to the edge or not. I'd then go to the 3K stone and just work the edge and strop from there.

The back needs to be as polished as the bevel for the blade to be sharp.

A little trick that might help when using the jig is to use a sharpie to color the bevel. Make a few strokes and you'll be able to see where you're removing steel, adjust and repeat.......hope this helps

[Tim Booher]

this is all incredible advice. I'm going to get the loop and also follow tracy's advice. I just hate the grinder because I think I'll mess that up. But it is a cheap plane and I need to learn.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

this is all incredible advice. I'm going to get the loop and also follow tracy's advice. I just hate the grinder because I think I'll mess that up. But it is a cheap plane and I need to learn.

If you think you messed it up, let us know (and if you really just need someone to fix it and cannot find someone, just PM me).

[lowell holmes]

I would make a jig to hold the iron square to the stone.

or

https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&type=E211US739G0&p=honing+guide+for+sharpening+chisels

The Woodcraft guide excellent and easy to use.

[Tim Booher]

All, I realize the stone itself may be bad. Do folks recommend a good system (scarysharp?) or specific ceramic stones?

[steven c newman]

Owner of about 15 working block planes.....does NOT take that much work to get these sharp.

First,,get the back of the iron flat....no, I did not say shined up like a mirror, I said flat....you can polish it up later.

Next.....work on just a single bevel.....say around 25 degrees, for now. That means the entire bevel....do not worry about any "back bevels" just a simple, single, flat bevel.
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These are my spares....Right now, there is a Stanley No. 9-1/2 sitting on my bench....other days, it might be the No. 60-1/2....just depends on which works that day.

BTW...ALL of my block planes still have and USE the irons they had when they were shipped out of the factory. Never found any need to get an after market iron....

[Jim Koepke]

All, I realize the stone itself may be bad. Do folks recommend a good system (scarysharp?) or specific ceramic stones?

A 'bad' stone isn't usually the total cause. Yes, some stones are better than others for various reasons. At $30 those stones are even tempting me to give them a shot. As it is there are already more stones in my shop than needed.

From the image you posted it looks like the blade isn't being held to the stone equally over its entire width. It would be a truly bad stone that would abrade on part of its surface and not another.

You may be able to (have to) correct this by setting it up by eye.

My first thought would be to not use a sharpening holder that doesn't roll on the stones. Just a caveat, my sharpening has always been done freehand. A holder seems to take longer to set up and introduces new problems.

Many folks have had great results with what is known as the basic Eclipse style blade holding guide. It is possibly the least expensive (from some sources) and easiest to use> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=eclipse+sharpening+guide&crid=1D3S8O4N74EJV&sprefix=eclipse+sharpen%2Cgarden%2C233&ref=nb_sb_ss_fb_1_15_ts-doa-p

As Steven said, start off keeping it simple. Learn to get to sharp before trying all the secondary, cambered, unicorned and back bevels.

There isn't really any one system that works best. There may be one system you can make work best for you.

Good luck,

jtk

[Meryl Logue]

Then I started looked at my cuticles, and grossed myself out.

.

That’s funny. Now I have to try that. Especially after a sharpening session.

[David Bassett]

All, I realize the stone itself may be bad. Do folks recommend a good system (scarysharp?) or specific ceramic stones?

I bought the Razorri stones out of curiosity, hoping to find a cheap solution I could recommend to casual users. (In short, don't bother Jim.)

While I will only recommend them with many caveats, I certainly wouldn't call them bad. They seem more or less true to their grit ratings, (though comments & reviews suggest there was a batch that was mislabeled. The one that feels finest is the finest one no matter what the inked number claims.) A short soak, just until the bubbles stop, and they will work fine.

Why the caveats? They are small, roughly 2" x 7", instead of the more common size around 3" x 8". This means they will have more problems using jigs and freehand sharpeners will have less area to play with. The kit is billed as everything you need, but doesn't really have a good flattening solution and includes things not really appropriate for knifes or woodworking tools (e.g. a bad razor strop.) And, for lack of a better word, they feel "yucky" in use. This isn't really a limit on achieving sharp, but just an impression after comparing them to other stones. I guess it's sort of a scratchy feeling, not really a rough and cutting fast feeling on the coarse stone or a buttery smooth and polishing up the bevel on the finer stones. Basically they leave me with a hint of a tingle up my spine.

But for all the caveats, they will get tools sharp. I suspect the problem is (mostly) caused by a mismatch between the stones small size, and possibly flatness and squareness, and the chosen jig. It seems like, to use that jig, a piece of float glass or flat (check!) tile, or even MDF (though it will warp & crumble if it gets wet), with some sand paper will make a good cheap experiment. (Warning sandpaper is less up front expense, but it doesn't last as long and starts to add up over long term use.) Ultimately a freehand or a different jig for use with stones or some constant thickness diamond plates for that jig seems most likely to satisfy.

ETA: oh, they weren't flat as shipped which aggravates the lack of a good flattening solution. A freehand sharpener probably could have used them as is and compensated, but with a jig...? I used the diamond flattening plate I already had to true them up before doing any sharpening, so never really tried their as shipped state.

[Rob Luter]

All, I realize the stone itself may be bad. Do folks recommend a good system (scarysharp?) or specific ceramic stones?

That's how I started out (scarysharp), and it worked well. First it was wet/dry sandpaper on a piece of glass, followed by 3M abrasive film on glass that had been mounted on MDF (see below). It was a perfectly serviceable method, although it was a bit slow and the film needed to be replaced frequently. I started with a copy of an Eclipse honing guide. Holding the blade securely at a fixed angle is critical.

https://live.staticflickr.com/1488/26712452175_7e480b7af1_b.jpg

I've since graduated to a simplified system using a diamond plate for my primary bevel and ceramic waterstones for everything else (below). It is very fast and results in a great edge. A horsehide strop provides a final step. The Eclipse guide was replaced by a Veritas MKII setup which worked well but was fussy and a bit complicated. I've come full circle and am now using a LN Honing guide. It's a much improved variation of the Eclipse design.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50988878701_f02602a1bb_b.jpg

I've found that if your stone is flat and your iron is presented at a consistent angle, pretty much anything will work. With me it came down to speed and maintenance.

[steven c newman]

This one was doing end grain Ash, this morning..
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Among other directions..
459658
Like trimming miters...
459659
And edge grain...

Sharpened to 2.5K on sandpapper, then a ride on the strop.....then the buffer wheel....angle is a single 25 degree bevel......tain't Rocket Science....

[Jim Koepke]

...tain't Rocket Science....

But it is something folks can only learn after a lot of practice and discipline. Not many are born with a natural ability to sharpen a blade. In fact no one has ever come my way saying they were born with the ability sharpen.

jtk

[Rob Luter]

I agree that it's not rocket science, but it is a skill that requires practice. My biggest hurdle was discovering what sharp really meant. I used to think my kitchen knives were sharp. They are, but compared to my chisels and plane irons they are dull as an axe. Once I put the time in and got the back flat and a uniform bevel I began to understand. Things got much easier all around. Hence the sig line below....

[Stewie Simpson]

This one was doing end grain Ash, this morning..
459657
Among other directions..
459658
Like trimming miters...
459659
And edge grain...

Sharpened to 2.5K on sandpapper, then a ride on the strop.....then the buffer wheel....angle is a single 25 degree bevel......tain't Rocket Science....

Steven; you'll have to excuse my ignorance, but is the final stage of sharpening on the buffing wheel tied in with the Unicorn methodology.

regards Stewie.

[steven c newman]

Yep, it is. I also tend to keep things simple, when sharpening....as I usually need the item to get back to work. I find there is rarely any need to spend "hours, days" trying to sharpen one edge.

[Don Dorn]

Everyone has different approaches. I used to use an Elipse jig and had fair luck with it. For me, a revelation came when I watched Paul Sellers sharpen by hand with a slight convex edge over only three diamond stones. I discovered that it happens naturally because doing it by hand can't be perfect. Now, every sharp edge tool is done that way. It (I) can be done from beginning to stropping in about three or four minutes as there is no tertiary edge. Grinding every fifth time or so is done on a belt sander. Hundred ways to skin a cat, this one works the fastest and best for me and gives me a sharper edge than anything I used in the past.

[Jim Koepke]

Everyone has different approaches. I used to use an Elipse jig and had fair luck with it. For me, a revelation came when I watched Paul Sellers sharpen by hand with a slight convex edge over only three diamond stones. I discovered that it happens naturally because doing it by hand can't be perfect. Now, every sharp edge tool is done that way. It (I) can be done from beginning to stropping in about three or four minutes as there is no tertiary edge. Grinding every fifth time or so is done on a belt sander. Hundred ways to skin a cat, this one works the fastest and best for me and gives me a sharper edge than anything I used in the past.

Some good points here:

1) Works the fastest and best for you.
2) Hundreds of ways to skin a cat.
3) How often grinding may be needed.

It often seems there are more ways to sharpen than there are people who sharpen their tools.

jtk

[Russell Nugent]

I also use the hand sharpening demonstrated by Paul sellers. It's quick, and I've been getting much better at it. I regrind if necessary on sandpaper though.