High school grad can't read cursive.

[Myk Rian]

I was totally blown away today. We traveled north a couple hours for our last graduating grand daughter's commencement. (9 grandkids) 44 kids at CHA graduated high school.

Afterwards, we had lunch, then went back to the house. Had a rousing game of dominoes going, and Gdaughter brought out a letter from her father, our son, deceased when she was 1yo. It was hand written, and she Could Not read it. She was never taught cursive.

I was stunned. Absolutely jaw dropping stunned. Her mother read it for her.

I guess when the powers that be, say they will not teach cursive, they actually banned cursive. I can't believe they wouldn't do so little as some kind of intro class.

Unbelievable
🙁

I'm going to go read the Time for some levity thread. I need it.

[Brian Elfert]

I don't recall ever being taught specifically how to read cursive although I can certainly read it.

The only thing I use cursive for these days is my signature. If I write something by hand I use regular letters, not cursive. I'm not certain I could even remember how to write a paragraph or two in cursive anymore.

[Andrew Seemann]

I don't believe that my kids (2 recent grads and one still in high school) got taught cursive, which surprised me. They have all learned to sign their names in cursive, but I think they learned that on their own.

I have mixed feelings on the obsolescence of cursive. On one hand the curmudgeon in me thinks that, since we had to learn it in elementary school and constantly hear that we were poor at it, kids still should still have to learn it. At the same time, I stopped using it as soon as I could, roughly high school, and find that most people I know have poor to out right illegible cursive writing. I sometimes think we are just better off with using regular printing and keyboards. Part of me thinks that cursive is a holdover from the days of quills, fountain pens, and inkwells.

[Bill Dufour]

In France cursive is taught from preschool until jr high or so when manuscript is introduced. Theory is a little kid can not draw straight line anyway so why try to teach them before they are ready. Pretty much all adults used to use similar looking cursive, few switched to manuscript.
AFAIK France still is lockstep daily federal lesson plans in the entire country each grade does the exact same same thing as prescribed by Paris head quarters. A kid can transfer across country and next day he will be one page behind, just like all his new friends. If the students do not understand the new material there is no time to reteach it they must stay on schedule.
Bill D

[Frederick Skelly]

They are no longer taught cursive here. I was also surprised. Here, they claim kids will be using keyboards/computers so they teach those skills (briefly). I dont know how they take notes in college - does everyone learn to type real fast?

[Mel Fulks]

I have always had a hard time reading cursive . My Mother could easily read anyone’s cursive, even stuff that to me just looked like straight
lines drawn by someone with a slight tremor. I wonder what will happen with signatures. Since they are hard to read now, I guess they will
get worse and then replaced ...with something.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I have always had a hard time reading cursive . My Mother could easily read anyone’s cursive, even stuff that to me just looked like straight
lines drawn by someone with a slight tremor. I doubt if you're alone there.

[Brian Deakin]

I am 63 years old and live in the UK. I was taught cursive writing from the age of 7 and the teaching took the following format
(1) There was a chart permanently on the classroom wall depicting each letter of the alphabet in upper and lower case written in italics
(2) Children either used a pen provided by the school which was dipped into an inkwell or you could purchase a pen with an ink cartridge from the school .I had to purchase a pen with an modified nib because I am left handed
(3) Each week there would be a one hour lesson were the teacher wrote a poem on the blackboard and the children copied it The completed poem was the given to the teacher to assess the and if the writing was not of the required standard you were not allowed to participate in the sports class and had to remain in the classroom alone and repeat writing the poem The dread of missing sports concentrated the mind of every child in the class .Sports was every Childs favorite lesson
(4) The writing paper provided was blank and children drew bold lines on a piece of paper which they placed underneath the blank unlined paper to provide a template of lines to ensure the writing was parallel
(5) The upper and lowercase letter had to be a certain number of nib widths wide and the writing leant slightly to the right
(6) Each classroom had a large bottle of ink and children refilled thier cartridges during the lunch hour using an hypodermic syringe with a needle attached We were never supervised refiling cartridge's and quickly learned the importance of pressing the plunger on the syringe slowly or the hypodermic needle came off ,ink would shoot across the room often depositing on the cloths of other children

I find it interesting that more than fifty years later that if I see a letter y that has the tailed looped I immediately recognize letter has been incorrectly formed

[Malcolm Schweizer]

My daughter is 8, and she was taught cursive, and I am very glad. That said, I ditched cursive for note taking around junior high, and use it only for my signature now. I am also one who hates it, but gets it. I studied in art and business, which included graphic art. Graphic art is highly focused on font usage. Cursive, as a font, is really a horrible design if you look at it through the eyes of a graphic artist. Is it a “j”, “g”, “q”, or a “z”? The letters are too similar, and there is no spacing, so they run together. The fact that a kid couldn’t read it kind of supports that it’s a terrible font. Also, I don’t believe it is faster to write with, excepting if you scribble it poorly and illegibly. That is why I gave it up for note taking. I could write much faster in print.

My 8-year-old can already type. I agree, that is more important than scribbling illegibly. I’m old-school, by the way; I usually side with the old-school ways, but I’m fine with ditching cursive, except it needs to be a global initiative. Also, can we start teaching manners again?

[Jim Matthews]

Did anyone responding to this jot down a rough draft by hand, first?

How many of us grind our own pounce or cut fresh quills for the task?

Horrors

[roger wiegand]

One of those utterly pointless skills that I'm happy to see consigned to the dustbin of history. What a waste of time and impediment to communication! I remember hating getting letters from my grandmother for the effort required to decipher them (this was 60 years ago). I took a drafting class in 8th grade where they (finally) taught me to print neatly and efficiently and there was no looking back-- making notes to myself that both I and others could actually read was such an improvement! That carried me through high school, college, and grad school up to the invention of word processors.

For learning hand-eye coordination a drawing class would have been much more useful to me in life. I can't make a sketch worth a darn, which is horrible for a furniture maker. That one drafting class gave me a skill set I've used endlessly, both for scientific communication in my "day job", as well, of course, in drawing things I want to make. Typing (which I never learned, this is all hunt and peck) would also have been incredibly useful.

If you like hard-to-read writing, hieroglyphs are more fun.

[Frank Pratt]

One of those utterly pointless skills that I'm happy to see consigned to the dustbin of history. What a waste of time and impediment to communication! I remember hating getting letters from my grandmother for the effort required to decipher them (this was 60 years ago). I took a drafting class in 8th grade where they (finally) taught me to print neatly and efficiently and there was no looking back-- making notes to myself that both I and others could actually read was such an improvement! That carried me through high school, college, and grad school up to the invention of word processors.

For learning hand-eye coordination a drawing class would have been much more useful to me in life. I can't make a sketch worth a darn, which is horrible for a furniture maker. That one drafting class gave me a skill set I've used endlessly, both for scientific communication in my "day job", as well, of course, in drawing things I want to make. Typing (which I never learned, this is all hunt and peck) would also have been incredibly useful.

If you like hard-to-read writing, hieroglyphs are more fun.

Bingo! I gave up cursive by the time I got out of high school because I could never read my own writing & most of that by others.

[Nathan Johnson]

Put me in the Pro-Cursive camp.
I'm 39, and was taught in grade school. I continue to write mostly in cursive to this day, although I do modify a few of the letters for aesthetic reasons. (Capital Qs and Gs are hideous.) I practiced my handwriting a lot and always took pride in it...for whatever weird reason.
If I print, I print in all caps, and change the height of capital letters. I also incorporate some of the cursive versions of those capital letters. Regular printed letters always bothered me. They're less pleasing. They're less artistic.

To me it's a shame we're losing this knowledge, though I understand why.

[Paul F Franklin]

I've always admired folks with beautiful handwriting, but personally never saw the point. Like others here I abandoned it at an early age. Even my signature, carefully practiced and perfected when I was young, now is just a scrawl, and frankly, I can't remember the last time I actually had to sign something with a pen; even signatures are often digital these days.

As to college students, at least in classes that I taught, note taking was all on devices. When we did any exercise that would require pen or pencil, I would have to remind the students to bring one as many don't even carry one in their backpack. And I would have extras.

I much more rue the loss of wood shop and metal shop than the loss of cursive.

[julian abram]

Yep, the wife has retired after teaching 8th grade science for 20+ years. No cursive taught in our district. What folks don't realize is very little grammar is taught as well. No more instruction on diagraming sentences, nouns, verbs, etc. in our district. My wife purchased grammar books and taught our daughters grammar in the evenings.

[eugene thomas]

starting to see why home schooling so popular.

[Erik Loza]

Learned both in school but have forgotted how to write it. Reading, no problem.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

I also learned it in school starting in the second grade. But my own handwriting has never been "cursive" ... it's more a combination of printing and cursive-ish. Any serious writing I've done in the past several decades came off the keyboard and printer. I'm 64. So I can appreciate why there is little or no focus on cursive writing in elementary and secondary education these days...fewer and fewer people actually use it and in business/industry, it's not used at all. Honestly, there are bigger fish to fry when it comes to education...problem solving, thinking, organization, etc., in addition to rote knowledge.

One other thing...some cursive is easier to read than other cursive, too. Professor Dr. SWMBO's cursive is nearly impossible for me to read and I'm generally pretty good with such things. It's more like scribbling. LOL My mother's was very neat, on the other hand (pardon the expression) and likely readable by most folks including people who didn't formally "learn" cursive.

[Bill Dufour]

Not to be too off topic but... I have read that the US supreme court will not accept legal documents written in Times New Roman or any other font that is sans serif.
Also black letters on white background is the easiest to read. Switch either one and the best you can hope for is 80% as readable. Some combinations drop below 50%
Bill D

[Curt Harms]

One other thing...some cursive is easier to read than other cursive, too. Professor Dr. SWMBO's cursive is nearly impossible for me to read and I'm generally pretty good with such things. It's more like scribbling. LOL My mother's was very neat, on the other hand (pardon the expression) and likely readable by most folks including people who didn't formally "learn" cursive.

Isn't that part of medical school curriculum?:p

[Keith Outten]

Imagine an American child who cannot read the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution :(

[roger wiegand]

Yep, the wife has retired after teaching 8th grade science for 20+ years. No cursive taught in our district. What folks don't realize is very little grammar is taught as well. No more instruction on diagraming sentences, nouns, verbs, etc. in our district. My wife purchased grammar books and taught our daughters grammar in the evenings.

AFAIK our district has also dropped the grammar formalism once prevalent, however the kids coming out of our schools write beautifully, with correct grammar and spelling. Much better than we did long ago. Instead of diagramming word relationships they focus on constructing sentences that make sense, but more importantly, before they start writing they think about what they want to say, outline their key points, organize those ideas into a flow that makes sense, and then flesh out each idea to create paragraphs that are coherent and build an argument as you move from paragraph to paragraph.

I didn't learn how to do that until I got to grad school and worked with a prof who was also an editor. My first paper went through 26 drafts as he hammered on me to both think and write coherently. I could diagram sentences to beat the band, but that didn't do squat for my writing. The evidence suggests there are better ways. I won't deny that knowing the difference between an adverb and an adjective is pretty essential. Somehow our schools are accomplishing the desired outcome with many fewer rote tasks.

[Jerry Bruette]

Imagine an American child who cannot read the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution :(

Not being able to understand it is a bigger shame.

[Edwin Santos]

I'm tempted to join those with the sentiment that the loss of cursive is yet another example of how things are deteriorating for kids today.

But another part of me feels they are facing a exponentially changing world that demands a different sort of aptitude and a different mindset that those of us over 50 just don't have. The way everything works today from consumerism, education, information, finance, politics, healthcare. It's all so different.
I find myself often wanting to teach my teenage kids the way we did things "in my day". Sometimes its the right thing to teach, and sometimes it's actually not.

I think the right question is what will poise a kid for success in the future and it might mean letting go of the nostalgia of the past. At least some of it.
If the schools have adopted STEM based curriculum for these reasons, and if cursive is important to a parent, maybe it's on them to teach it at home. Pick your battles

[roger wiegand]

Imagine an American child who cannot read the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution :(

One of those cases where it's the thought that counts, I think. Being able to understand it is way more important that being able to unravel the original script (I've tried and mostly can't, despite endless hours of being drilled in "cursive") Consider that perhaps a hundredth of 1% of the world's Christians can either speak the languages of the bible or read the script it's written in. (Not counting, of course, the ones who think that Moses and Jesus spoke English ;))

[Patrick McCarthy]

Imagine an American child who cannot read the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution :(
Yes, and i used to include the Magna Carta too, but like Jerry, i have serious reservations about whether most Americans have actually ever tried to read the ENTIRE Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

I lament the loss of cursive, but the the thoughts here are making me rethink it. Good insight, gents. Not sure you have convinced me -yet - but suddenly i am less strident about it, which has to be a good thing, right?

Also, not to hijack the thread, but i find the loss of critical thinking skills to be a bigger failure of the educational system, and society in general, than the passing of The Palmer Method of cursive that the Catholic nuns literally beat into my hands.

[Matt Day]

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that learning how to type is a lot more important these days than cursive.

I learned cursive in grande school but haven’t used it in so long I have to google (I type to do that) how to form some letters when my 8 year old daughter asks. She’s better at cursive than me.

[Dave Cav]

Having gone to eight or nine different schools before entering high school, my handwriting instruction (and all the rest of my education) was (literally) all over the map and I never got very good at cursive. My parents, both products of parochial schools overseen by ruler wielding nuns, had excellent handwriting and could never understand why I couldn't write legibly. It was so difficult for me to write that when I was in the Navy I would sneak up to the personnel office after hours and borrow one of their IBM Selectrics to write my letters home. Finally in college during my drafting and mechanical drawing courses I learned hand lettering, and I've never looked back.

[Frank Pratt]

Not to be too off topic but... I have read that the US supreme court will not accept legal documents written in Times New Roman or any other font that is sans serif.
Also black letters on white background is the easiest to read. Switch either one and the best you can hope for is 80% as readable. Some combinations drop below 50%
Bill D

Do you mean any other font that is serif? Times New Roman is not a sans serif font.

[Mel Fulks]

Roger, Manny Fewer is a smart guy.....but shouldn’t that be WRITTEN tasks?

[Stan Calow]

I'm uncomfortable about it as well, but I'm trying to think of the last time I had to read anything other than a signature that was written in cursive. I'm more upset by kids not being able to do basic math without a calculator.

[Jim Koepke]

I guess when the powers that be, say they will not teach cursive, they actually banned cursive.

Cursive has not been banned. It has been dropped from our system of education.


I dont know how they take notes in college - does everyone learn to type real fast?

Many record lectures or classes on their smart phones. Others do type fast on their laptops. Some will record and then send through a voice to text application.

School is quite different than in my day when cell phones were still a few years away.


Also, I don’t believe it is faster to write with, excepting if you scribble it poorly and illegibly. That is why I gave it up for note taking. I could write much faster in print.

This is also my reason for using mostly upper case printing.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I sign personal checks when paying bills in cursive. I do you sign your checks? Of course, I am an old man. I bet you other old dogs know cursive as well.

[Warren Lake]

worked in a music store at 18 after last day of school. All rent contracts had to be printed capitals. Lost my skill to write as taught. We had to do the math no calculators, got good at that.

I had to look up cursive to see what it meant. That is what I did after working at the store but instead all capitals, pen never came up for air. In the last years ive had to stop myself and slow down more like an architect would do. Too many times I could not read what i printed, too often in a rush and sloppy. Even mood and type of pen affected it. Zebra Sarasa Gell refills flow like a good slider. I cut them to fit in a nice wood pen a friend made for me.

Ive handed my own stuff to other people in the past to ask asked what I wrote. Can only write in capital letters, at least now readable as i stopped slurring it all together.

[Ronald Blue]

Put me in the pro cursive camp. Whether you use it is a personal choice. My experience has mostly been if they can't write cursive their printing is a nightmare as well. But no wonder if you look at how writing instruments are generally held these days. That was part of learning to write. Properly holding the pencil or pen. There are so many documents that are in cursive from days gone by. What a handicap if you can't read it. While I agree that there are some horrible examples of handwriting even the worst can be figured out. Learn to read it? If you learn to write it you will be able to read it.

[Jim Becker]

Isn't that part of medical school curriculum?:p

Probably, but her degree is a Doctor of Science from Harvard School of Public Health, not medical school. Perhaps they have similar training in annotation. :) :D

[Matt Day]

I'm uncomfortable about it as well, but I'm trying to think of the last time I had to read anything other than a signature that was written in cursive. I'm more upset by kids not being able to do basic math without a calculator.

Kids learn to do basic math in school. That’s still a thing. My elementary aged kids are doing regrouping and such.

[Charlie Velasquez]

If other school districts are similar to the districts in Iowa, the de-emphasis of cursive was contemplated in 2001, and began in earnest in about 2003 or so.

In 2001 the legislation called No Child Left Behind was passed. It required that 100% of the general education students be "at grade level" in reading and math, and later science. After a couple of years of baseline testing schools had ten years to hit that mark. In the interim a school needed to make " Adequate Yearly Progress" towards that goal. Testing results were required to be published.
Schools not meeting their AYP were labeled as "at risk". Multiple years of not meeting the AYP led to being labeled as a " school in need of assistance". Newspapers, realtor and others would tout or bemoan the labels as the case dictated.
Federal funds were tied to these labels; not an increase or decrease, but what you could use the funds for became limited. For instance, instead of using the money for additional teachers you might have to use it for additional buses, as the law said any student could transfer from a SINA to a higher performing school and the district would provide the transportation.

That first year or two, increased effort and focus was sufficient to hit that AYP as a lot of students that were just barely under grade level were pushed a tad higher. But with each passing year that bar got higher. We had to find a way to get those kids that had tested significantly lower than grade level over that bar.
We needed more teacher-student face time. NCLB only required reporting data for math, reading, and science. The first thing to go was cursive, that picked up 10-15 minutes a day. Spelling and grammar followed. Last to go was social studies. Social studies didn't go, so much as it was just de-emphasized. If a reading or math concept needed a little more remedial work you took it from social studies.
Even recess time was shortened to add more math and reading time.

By 2008 there were very few chools teaching cursive in east central Iowa.
Our district had a ten year curriculum cycle, each discipline's committee would meet and make modifications for that discipline.
In 2009 our district disbanded the social studies committee "until further notice". It did not meet again till 2015 after NCLB was scrapped.

[Mike Cutler]

I read and write in cursive everyday.
It's not going away anytime soon. There are too many historical documents and data that have never been, and never will be, retyped. The best case is that they're scanned in to an accessible database
The "younger generation" is hit or miss. Some have very good cursive and block lettering, and some are just atrocious at either. As we deal in federally kept records, they always get upset when I send them their work back to be rewritten and punctuated.
Most can type, but they still can't form sentences and paragraphs properly. Everything is a just one long run on sentence.
The Navy taught me to have good penmanship. You only had to be ordered to rewrite one or two watch station logs before you got the message. ;)

[Jim Koepke]

Everything is a just one long run on sentence.

That is an interesting and funny comment. The Columbia River Reader (http://crreader.com) is a monthly publication in my area. One of their regular features is Dispatches From the Discovery Trail, a serial version of a book about the journey of Lewis and Clark. (Click on the link above for this months episode. It restarted last month)

One of the comments was on Thomas Jefferson's letter of instructions and how modern English teachers would go nuts about his very long run on sentences.

Well at least it was likely all done in cursive.

jtk

[Rod Sheridan]

starting to see why home schooling so popular.

Yeah, no.

How many of us are subject matter experts and have teaching qualifications?

If I home schooled my kids they would have a very substandard education.........Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

I sign personal checks when paying bills in cursive. I do you sign your checks? Of course, I am an old man. I bet you other old dogs know cursive as well.

Cheques???

Who uses cheques??? Sort of kidding Lowell, however I haven't used a cheque in years. I still have a cheque book, with 6 checques in it, will probably never order more........Regards, Rod.

P.S. Like cash, I've been carrying the same 5 twenty dollar bills in my wallet for months in case I ever need cash, something else that's becoming less used........tough times for us older guys :-)

regards, Rod.

[Myk Rian]

Most can type, but they still can't form sentences and paragraphs properly. Everything is a just one long run on sentence.

I've seen that so many times on every forum I go to. It's all written in text messaging. I ignore those threads.

My own handwriting has prompted many comments that I should have been a doctor. I took drafting in high school and learned to print, which I do now because a thyroid issue took away much muscle control. My signature has become a scribble.

I appreciate all the comments.

[Lee Schierer]

When I set up the bank account for my mother's estate, the bank manager told me the kids getting checks as graduation presents can't cash them without a bank account and you can't open a bank account or sign a check without a signature, which has to be in cursive. She said many parents have to teach their high school graduates how to sign their name while opening an account.

[Andrew Seemann]

I'm uncomfortable about it as well, but I'm trying to think of the last time I had to read anything other than a signature that was written in cursive. I'm more upset by kids not being able to do basic math without a calculator.

I've nearly lost my ability to do basic math without a calculator or Excel, and I use math in my daily job. That probably is why I can't do it in my head anymore; I have Excel do all the calculations. It is safer for everyone that way. I was never good at that detail level accuracy and attentiveness.

[Frederick Skelly]

That was interesting background Charlie. Thanks for providing it!

[Tom M King]

Here's an old letter, written by John Wesley. If you can read this, you can read cursive:

[Myk Rian]

That's a tough one

[Jim Koepke]

That's a tough one

It is difficult reading with your neck bent like that.

Plus the contrast is low and it looks like both sides of the paper was used.

jtk

[Anuj Prateek]

I learnt cursive back in the school and it has been the only way I write. I have no trouble reading cursive, though extra ornamental writing will slow me down. I love fountain pens, so I find opportunities to write a few sentences everyday.

I don't see writing to be a skill that my kid will use (7 years old) much in his life. Probably next to next generation, writing will become similar to working by hand tools.

To be fair, the way Natural Language Processing is developing, I don't see typing to last another 25 years as well.

[Jim Becker]

To be fair, the way Natural Language Processing is developing, I don't see typing to last another 25 years as well.

I agree with that, Anuj. Both Professor Dr. SWMBO and I are using voice processing more and more every day for communication. It's become pretty darn accurate, too.

[Bob Turkovich]

I agree with that, Anuj. Both Professor Dr. SWMBO and I are using voice processing more and more every day for communication. It's become pretty darn accurate, too.

Please talk to Apple. The quality of their voice mail transcription service (on a Iphone 11) is horrendous. :mad:

[Jim Becker]

Please talk to Apple. The quality of their voice mail transcription service (on a Iphone 11) is horrendous. :mad:

I get so few calls and voicemail messages, that I don't notice issues. With Siri, I rarely have a mis-cue with it and when I do, the wacky nature of the English language is partially to blame.

[Kev Williams]

Here's an old letter, written by John Wesley. If you can read this, you can read cursive:

I have not heard anything concerning McGarratt for a long season. You send me welcome news concerning him: I am glad to hear, that his Love is not grown cold. It is well, that you "agree to disagree", is your (?) and concerning Public Affairs. There is no end of Disputing about these matters. Let every^one enjoy his own persuasion. Let us have God to govern the world: And he will be sure to do all things well. And all will work together for his Glory, & for the good of the many for him.
When the Government of America is (salted?), I believe some of our Brothers will be ready to come over. I cannot advise them to do it yet. First let us see, how Providence opens itself. And I am the (last?) in part, because I am persuaded Bro: (?) os raired up, to preserve order among you, & to do just what I would do myself, (?) pleased God to bring me to America. Get on, in the name of thy Lord & in the power of his might! I am your (Affirminate?) Brother JWesley

That IS a tuffy ;) -but I can't imagine looking at it as if was no clearer than Hebrew to me...

[Anuj Prateek]

Here's an old letter, written by John Wesley. If you can read this, you can read cursive:

Most is readable, with effort. Some words are pretty difficult, best I can do is guess based on sentence.

This reminds me of my Dad's handwriting. He is a doctor. It's right on the edge of waves and words. He claims his handwriting is better than other doctors.

[Dennis Droege]

Horrifying, but not surprising, given the mediocre standards of education that prevail in our culture--

[Jim Matthews]

Horrifying, but not surprising, given the mediocre standards of education that prevail in our culture--
Oh, please.

Kids today are more, not less competent.

[Dennis Droege]

They probably are. I never sell youth short; it's what they're exposed to that I was talking about.

[Brian Elfert]

Doctor's handwriting is part of the reason that most prescriptions are either printed on a printer or simply sent electronically to the pharmacy of your choice. The days of a doctor pulling a prescription pad and filling it out by hand are mostly gone.

[Kev Williams]

Oh, please.

Kids today are more, not less competent.


Kids today more competent? Yes, I'll agree...

More work ethic? mmm, not so much. Every sole proprietor shop owner I know can't keep an employee for more than a few days or weeks because they want to pick their own days off, can't be bothered to come in before 11am, give wares away to their friends, steal from them or just plain quit because working eats into their free time. "Internet Sensation" seems to be the most coveted job title these days...

Just some of my life observations :)

[Frank Pratt]

Kids these days are much more competent in some areas, less so in others. It's a natural evolution to meeting what the world around them requires. And work ethic? I see plenty of kids that are hard working & honest, just like it was when I was much younger. People don't have life, or even decades long careers like in the past, but that doesn't make it wrong.

If every generation was even half as bad as the previous generation complains, then humanity would have died out millennia ago.

[George Yetka]

They should all have to learn Russian cursive

[Jim Matthews]

More work ethic? mmm, not so much. Every sole proprietor shop owner I know can't keep an employee for more than a few days or weeks because they want to pick their own days off, can't be bothered to come in before 11am, give wares away to their friends, steal from them or just plain quit because working eats into their free time. "Internet Sensation" seems to be the most coveted job title these days...

Just some of my life observations :)

Jeezit. QED.

[Jim Becker]

They should all have to learn Russian cursive

It's actually pretty beautiful to look at...

[andrew whicker]

Who cares about cursive? If cursive takes X hours / year, they can learn something else with that X hours / year and be better off.

Certain things are 'nice to have', others are 'need to have'. Cursive does not meet 'need.'

[Jim Becker]

Andrew, I don't disagree with you...and "need" has changed over time. "Back in the day", folks used actual handwriting a whole lot more and writing in cursive is more efficient because the pen stays on the paper most of the time compared to when printing in upper and lowercase block letters by hand. Typwriters came along. And then (dedicated) word processors. And then personal computers with applications like Wordperfect and Microsoft Word. (and as has been mentioned, more of us are using our voices to dictate textual material now) Actually writing things out by hand is "more of a hobby" at this point relative to the general population...keyboard skills are more important. So yea...time spend learning a process that isn't really used prevalently anymore can be better spent.

[Mel Fulks]

You can certainly choose a course and see where it takes you. For some years ahead there will be stubborn dumbbells who won’t hire people
who can’t do what they need done. But you will outlive most of them. And I’ve seen some really nice “will work for food signs” done in
big PRINT.

[lowell holmes]

I only occasionally write a check when paying a bill. I normally carry enough cash to buy groceries and gasoline.
I also will buy lumber and supplies with cash. I have no credit cards.

[Jason Roehl]

Yeah, no.

How many of us are subject matter experts and have teaching qualifications?

If I home schooled my kids they would have a very substandard education.........Rod.

I think you need to give yourself a lot more credit than that. I know a lot of teachers...many of them are far from experts in their fields, and when I was at Ball State University (last two years of high school), elementary education was considered a degree of last resort, and BSU is known for their Teacher’s College!

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not knocking teachers, it’s just that teaching your own children in lieu of public or private schooling is not rocket science (unless you want to teach them that...). There are LOTS of homsechooling resources and support groups/cooperatives available today.

[Curt Harms]

I think you need to give yourself a lot more credit than that. I know a lot of teachers...many of them are far from experts in their fields, and when I was at Ball State University (last two years of high school), elementary education was considered a degree of last resort, and BSU is known for their Teacher’s College!

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not knocking teachers, it’s just that teaching your own children in lieu of public or private schooling is not rocket science (unless you want to teach them that...). There are LOTS of homsechooling resources and support groups/cooperatives available today.

We only have 4 legged 'kids' so I don't pay a lot of attention but from what little I've read, home schooled kids do as well or better than their public schooled peers at college/university. A concern I'd have is the social aspects, are home schooled kids able to fit in to non-scholastic activities?

[Tom M King]

We homeschooled both of our children. Our county, in which we live by choice, has/had the second worse record in the State. They both did just fine, in all sorts of "non-scholastic" activities. They were always chosen as leaders in any groups they were involved with, such as Boy Scouts, 4H, Tutoring at Community College, or US Pony Club. Long story, but they are 32, and 39 now, quite successful, and doing what they want to do.

Spending a large part of your time, in a room with 28 other children your age, is not the ideal environment for learning to deal with the rest of the world.

edited to add: I forgot about Music, and Theater. Being involved in Theater is one of the best things you can do for a child, and if you are lucky enough to have a good community theater, it's better than any theater program in a regular school.

[Charlie Velasquez]

We only have 4 legged 'kids' so I don't pay a lot of attention but from what little I've read, home schooled kids do as well or better than their public schooled peers at college/university. A concern I'd have is the social aspects, are home schooled kids able to fit in to non-scholastic activities?

In our district the public schools embraced the home schoolers. The district sought to dual enroll those students. It had a director whose primary job was to assist the home schooled.
The parents could have their kids participate in "specials" - art, music & physical ed; as well as the extra curricular activities. The district could count the students as enrolled and receive additional per pupil monies, albeit at a reduced rate. A win-win.


I think you need to give yourself a lot more credit than that. I know a lot of teachers...many of them are far from experts in their fields, and when I was at Ball State University (last two years of high school), elementary education was considered a degree of last resort, and BSU is known for their Teacher’s College!
...

Probably not by the vast majority of the el ed majors. Of the hundreds of undergrads in the program I encountered all aspired to be educators, they did not consider it to be a profession of last resort.

[Jim Koepke]

Kids today more competent? Yes, I'll agree...

More work ethic? mmm, not so much. Every sole proprietor shop owner I know can't keep an employee for more than a few days or weeks because they want to pick their own days off, can't be bothered to come in before 11am, give wares away to their friends, steal from them or just plain quit because working eats into their free time. "Internet Sensation" seems to be the most coveted job title these days...

Just some of my life observations :)

My family must be blessed. Many of my grandchildren are in their last years of high school or first year of college. Some of them have part time or summer jobs even though they still live with their parents.

The youngest grandchildren are having a different school experience with their father being stationed in Korea with the U.S. Air Force.

jtk

[mike stenson]

Seems to me this is like complaining that the vast majority of people can't do math in hexadecimal. It's simply no longer relevant.

[Jim Becker]

Probably not by the vast majority of the el ed majors. Of the hundreds of undergrads in the program I encountered all aspired to be educators, they did not consider it to be a profession of last resort.



I agree with this. Friends and relatives of mine that are educators are extremely dedicated and motivated folks. Unfortunately, one of the things that caused a lot of otherwise really great folks to go in a different direction than their "first love" of teaching was, frankly, extraordinarily low starting income. The profession comes with a huge amount of responsibility and stress and for some, making a more livable income overrode their desire to teach. The education world is still trying to play catch-up with resources as a result. Teaching is one of the most important jobs on the planet, IMHO, and the compensation should match that level of responsibility.

I also think that "homeschooling" is a perfectly valid path for any family that can commit to it. That word "commit" is really important. And parents who are honest with themselves about their actual ability to teach is also important. Not everyone is well suited to the task. In those cases, it's best to seek a program that bridges the desire to homeschool with the necessary resources to do best for the student(s). Fortunately, in this time of technology, there are a lot more options for that.

[Gregg Markowski]

Don't need no cursive, no long math, no printing ( we have printers for that ), No spelling class because we have spell check for that, Don't need Social Studies because there is less and less need to know any of that stuff, Geography?? Don't need it! Civics REALLY dont need that! History? Nope stupid. I taught Culinary Arts for 8 years to students from 18-60 years old. The number of young students that were incapable of performing 3rd grade math was amazing. Fractions? forget it Ratios??? Nope! Increasing or decreasing the yield of a recipe??? Ha! Teaspoons, Tablespoons, cups, quarts, gallons...may as well be speaking Greek or Latin and we dont need to be teaching that crap either. Bottom line I guess is that I dont know what they are teaching if they can't add, subtract, multiply or divide or even read aloud ( one more thing we dont need to pass on in schools ). Whether we use it or not as a society/empire/civilizations go thats how languages are forgotten and civilizations go away. While cursive isn't used much there are skills and habits formed from practicing it. Also as one poster noted he hated getting handwritten letters from his Grandmother my experience was just the opposite. I cherish those letters to this day. We dont write letters to our children today, just send them a text. I think its sad actually.

[John Stankus]

I'm not sure I want to chime in here or not, but as a college professor I deal with the outcomes of both home schooling and formal schooling (both public and private) on a daily basis. There is a distribution of skills in students in with each of those backgrounds. I have had home schoolers who do fabulously, but I also have had many who have difficulty with schedules/due dates, exam taking skills, and group work ability. Successful home-schooled students have a family that has committed to the process as a FULL-TIME endeavor, and use a complete syllabus. I have seen students with large gaps, with parents not wanting to teach some areas (because they don't understand it, or they think it is too hard). Granted, I have seem some districts omit topics because it is hard, or have a grading system where 50% is the lowest score allowed to be assigned (so the kids could possibly catch up, and save the state funding dollars for the district)

I have heard of some school districts bringing back cursive (to get back to the original comment). I would much prefer them to bring back fractions and ratios. Chemistry (like the Culinary Arts mentioned earlier) is all about ratio and proportion. I had to get our math department to make sure to teach logarithms in College Algebra (logs are used a lot in chemistry). The math folks didn't like teaching them, and didn't think they were that useful because now we have calculators. i.e. since we don't need to use slide rules (which are log based) they don't need logs.

John who teaches several sections of college general chemistry every year.

[roger wiegand]

Teaspoons, Tablespoons, cups, quarts, gallons...may as well be speaking Greek or Latin and we dont need to be teaching that crap either. .

Boy, I'm with you there! Can't get my recipes converted to weight-based units fast enough. Once I know how many grams or kilos of each ingredient I need I'm off to the races. No more scaling or conversion errors; no more mis-measurements because this salt is not milled exactly the same as that one and has a different density.

Treating cooking the same way I treated my lab work (weighing most everything and going metric, getting rid of fractions) greatly improved my reproducibility as a cook and baker.

[Mel Fulks]

Gregg, A fine and needed rant ! We are building big piles of ephemera.
P.S. I said that out loud and someone walking by yelled “yeah! F Emeruh ! ”

[Anuj Prateek]

Seems to me this is like complaining that the vast majority of people can't do math in hexadecimal. It's simply no longer relevant.

I did not even know that people used to be able to do maths in hex.

[Anuj Prateek]

Kids today more competent? Yes, I'll agree...

More work ethic? mmm, not so much. Every sole proprietor shop owner I know can't keep an employee for more than a few days or weeks because they want to pick their own days off, can't be bothered to come in before 11am, give wares away to their friends, steal from them or just plain quit because working eats into their free time. "Internet Sensation" seems to be the most coveted job title these days...

Just some of my life observations :)

I have limited experience but thought will share.

In IT/Software I have seen and have worked with people in range 22-65 years old. In all age groups I see equally ethical and unethical people.

Based on current needs, education has evolved. Ethics and morals have not changed much.

One thing I do see is that younger engineers are more aware, confident and vocal. There have been times when I have worked long hours just because work was to be done. I can see folks asking "why" or asking for compensation before putting in the hours.

[glenn bradley]

Please talk to Apple. The quality of their voice mail transcription service (on a Iphone 11) is horrendous. :mad:


Interesting. I am fairly impressed with how accurate the voicemail to text function is. As always, garbage in, garbage out. I have a family member as an example . . . I can barely understand her on the phone (speaks to that missing 'reading comprehension and speech' requirement someone noted was missing from high school now) so I would not expect speech to text to work very well for her.

It is easy to get on a rant with this. STEM schools for example. They potentially turn out functional, employable, meat-machines who have never heard of Salvador Dali, Shakespeare, Hayden, governmental structures, or economic basics. If the power goes out and their batteries run dry they could have trouble making something to eat let alone carrying on with higher level functions. Dang it! See how easy a rant can start :)

[Jim Koepke]

I have a family member as an example . . . I can barely understand her on the phone (speaks to that missing 'reading comprehension and speech' requirement someone noted was missing from high school now) so I would not expect speech to text to work very well for her.

It is easy to get on a rant with this. STEM schools for example. They potentially turn out functional, employable, meat-machines who have never heard of Salvador Dali, Shakespeare, Hayden, governmental structures, or economic basics. If the power goes out and their batteries run dry they could have trouble making something to eat let alone carrying on with higher level functions.

This is not new. There have been people like this through out time Immemorial. Some of my coworkers from my generation were occasionally nothing more than a seat warmer who could do some of the basic functions of the job. Then there were those who would just leave it for the next guy to finish or make it go away with a pencil, aka pencil whipped it.

Then there are those who are good at some things but not others.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

One thing I do see is that younger engineers are more aware, confident and vocal. There have been times when I have worked long hours just because work was to be done. I can see folks asking "why" or asking for compensation before putting in the hours.

This is an important distinction lost on some of our older readers. "Kids these days" are quick to recognize (and reject) employers that consider them disposable. Remember when grocery clerks and meat packers were hailed as essential workers?

This particular outrage has generated responses from clutching pearls to condemnation of an education system that most of us know sweet F-A about. Other than wedding invitations, deciphering cursive is about as commonplace as decoding cuneiform tablets.

The intelligent response to a pointless task is to step around it.

This generation of school kids is considerably smaller than the last (I would argue that they're smarter) and well aware of what is ballast to be jettisoned. If you're an employer that can't keep staff, it's because what you're offering is the equivalent of cursive writing: high difficulty, little compensation.

The attitude voiced here, "Well I had to, so they should too!" is already overboard.

[Jim Becker]

The attitude voiced here, "Well I had to, so they should too!" is already overboard.
The owner/trainer at the first place we had our horses years ago took that attitude. She never could accept why so many of the kids (and adults) moved on, some suddenly, some after finding "greener, more pleasant pastures". She often expected young teens to work for pennies for long hours even on extremely hot, humid days with "adult responsibility" while berating them verbally with frequency and her style was yelling and screaming while training, too. Why? Because she said that's what she had to go through "coming up". It made her very angry that people left and she refused to connect the dots that her attitude predicated on her expectations and actions was the cause. So I agree...just because I learned cursive starting in second grade "back in the day" is not a good reason that my kids should have had to learn it in school at a time when its use has waned to nearly dis-use. This is a different time. (I also agree about fair compensation for work)

[Edward Weber]

It started with cursive and veered off in many directions but there is a common theme.
It's not just saying "do it because we had to" or getting the response "why should I do a pointless task". There is usually a purpose behind the task that is not evident until later on.
Ever see the Karate Kid, wax on, wax off?
Younger people don't yet have to wisdom that comes with age to know that it's not a pointless task, or how to read or write a note without a smart phone. At a fundamental level it boils down to learning the basics.
We had the alphabet above the blackboard in block and cursive.

[Tom M King]

We had an interesting visitor yesterday. She is a French teacher, with about 30 years of experience.

I asked her how often she went to France. She said she didn't nearly go as much as she did years ago, because for several years, she hasn't had one student willing to do a family stay. That is where one student goes to live with a family for a couple of weeks, where they only speak French.

She said she used to have whole classes go, and still hears from those students, from years ago, who still remember how wonderful the experience was. For several years, she has not had one student "brave" enough to go do a family stay. She said they just want to go on trips now, if they can hang out with their friends.

Not that it applies to this at all, but it might.

[Bert Kemp]

I have read every post but I did read a lot of them. sorry if someone else brought it up. So are high school graduating class of 2021 can't read these459814459815How sad and unacceptable

[Bert Kemp]

459816my message is to short:rolleyes:

[Curt Harms]

We had an interesting visitor yesterday. She is a French teacher, with about 30 years of experience.

I asked her how often she went to France. She said she didn't nearly go as much as she did years ago, because for several years, she hasn't had one student willing to do a family stay. That is where one student goes to live with a family for a couple of weeks, where they only speak French.

That seems like the way to become functional/proficient in any language

She said she used to have whole classes go, and still hears from those students, from years ago, who still remember how wonderful the experience was. For several years, she has not had one student "brave" enough to go do a family stay. She said they just want to go on trips now, if they can hang out with their friends.

"but I saw a movie/video/facebook post where a high school student like me did something like this and was never seen again" Some of are scared of our own shadows and not good at risk assessment

Not that it applies to this at all, but it might.

---------------------------------

[Jim Becker]

I have read every post but I did read a lot of them. sorry if someone else brought it up. So are high school graduating class of 2021 can't read these459814459815How sad and unacceptable

Have you considered that it's been a very, very, very long time since anyone had to read the original, hand-written versions? These are very important documents and the text of each have been transcribed many many times. Those are extremely hard to read by most people including those of us who grew up learning cursive. I certainly didn't "learn" them in school in the 1970s by reading the original handwritten text! The cursive we learned wasn't anything like these documents are written in, too. So yes, kids today to read these in school...they read the words and learn the significance. So for me, the argument just doesn't wash...cursive isn't required to read, learn and understand important things because nearly 100% of anything like that is available in non-cursive form, pretty much "on demand" and from anywhere.

[Kev Williams]

https://engraver1.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/crv.jpg

FWIW- many days when I have so many things to do I get dizzy trying to keep track,
I write things down on a 3x5 spiral notepad that I hang around my neck. It's the
only "I Pad" I'll ever own. Handwriting is still a necessary skill IMO, and doing it in cursive
is MUCH faster than lifting the pencil for every letter!

[Jim Becker]

I use the Notes app on my iDevices and Mac for that, Kev. :) Different strokes...

[Jim Koepke]

Handwriting is still a necessary skill IMO, and doing it in cursive
is MUCH faster than lifting the pencil for every letter!

My 'printing' is faster than my cursive. Who says the pencil has to be lifted for every letter? My printing is all caps and there is usually a trace of ink or pencil between the letters.

Though sometimes when writing very neatly my pen or pencil is lifted between letters.

In college, one of my classes was in calligraphy. That isn't used often.

jtk

[Bert Kemp]

Kev you call that MYpad LOL and I write my notes down too, on a piece of paper on my desk.

[Curt Harms]

I use the Notes app on my iDevices and Mac for that, Kev. :) Different strokes...

If voice to text works well maybe it's as fast as writing in cursive. If I had to use a screen keyboard in lieu of written notes it would seriously slow me down.

[Jim Becker]

If voice to text works well maybe it's as fast as writing in cursive. If I had to use a screen keyboard in lieu of written notes it would seriously slow me down.
I use voice to text a lot at this point for texting...both with my phone and with my watch including using CarPlay in our vehicles,...but I haven't tried it yet with Notes. I suspect it will work just fine given it's the same speech engine. I have punctuation down so it's pretty much automatic when I'm doing speech to text at this point.

[Rod Sheridan]

https://engraver1.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/crv.jpg

FWIW- many days when I have so many things to do I get dizzy trying to keep track,
I write things down on a 3x5 spiral notepad that I hang around my neck. It's the
only "I Pad" I'll ever own. Handwriting is still a necessary skill IMO, and doing it in cursive
is MUCH faster than lifting the pencil for every letter!

A week ago I mentioned this to a friend who is much older than me, his response was surprising

"You graduated and yet you can't read Latin. When I graduated from high School we needed a basic comprehension of Latin. Has this lack of a basic skill hindered you?"

I think cursive will be viewed as Latin, required for some professions, irrelevant for most...........Rod.

[Jim Koepke]

Saw an article about alphabets becoming extinct and reminded me of this thread > https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200121-the-alphabets-at-risk-of-extinction

Some thing become obsolete due to lack of use or need to use. Some, like cursive writing, are made obsolete by technology replacing them with something easier to use.

Often my wife confuses me by saying something to her iPad. My response used to be, "what?" Now if she only says a word or two it is obvious she is trying to enter a word she doesn't know how to spell.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

https://engraver1.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/crv.jpg



Standard education has changed with technology.

There are new things to be taught. Some of the old things may have to fall to the wayside.

We used to learn how to use a card catalog in a library many years ago. Most libraries no longer have card catalogs.

jtk

[Anuj Prateek]

Some thing become obsolete due to lack of use or need to use.


Wanted to add that this can happen at level of society or individual.

My mother tongue is Hindi. We speak Hindi at home, and few related languages as well.
Hindi was part of curriculum till 10th grade (high school) but after that I have not done any formal education in Hindi.
After grade 10, we were in India for over a decade. During that period I practically never wrote anything in Hindi.
I can still read and speak Hindi fluently but if I have to write something, I will struggle with spellings.
Well, to be honest, I will have to refresh myself on some not common letters (which I am going to do now).

[Larry Frank]

I do not care if someone prints or uses cursive. I do care if they can write clearly and logically. The people working for me had to be able to write long technical reports and some really struggled.

[Warren Wilson]

It’s worse than we imagined.

Kids these days can no longer press cuniform into clay tablets.

I am shaken.

[Jim Becker]

It’s worse than we imagined.

Kids these days can no longer press cuniform into clay tablets.

I am shaken.

https://snz04pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mBQKeUAsTl6_yJjaQvQh5LB64RYFAXlS1Wl-Kcz-j3K4QoiLRQrUJQJUwvP6nX_Wz7fV7SkvzIkwmBA27GKkG_oyWR gs336szJFYfsRbJy4bAOEiokOBylVcorXBq_OD0a0YUXi4J0CF xA09JCjaPCU_m8WdV7NhXG5G4hl8qXenHuv0dM4P27gTdKDqJB I1g?width=300&height=279&cropmode=none

[Amanda Turciya]

Have you considered that it's been a very, very, very long time since anyone had to read the original, hand-written versions? These are very important documents and the text of each have been transcribed many many times. Those are extremely hard to read by most people including those of us who grew up learning cursive. I certainly didn't "learn" them in school in the 1970s by reading the original handwritten text! The cursive we learned wasn't anything like these documents are written in, too. So yes, kids today to read these in school...they read the words and learn the significance. So for me, the argument just doesn't wash...cursive isn't required to read, learn and understand important things because nearly 100% of anything like that is available in non-cursive form, pretty much "on demand" and from anywhere.




Wow, I've never thought about this before, and it's really true! I don’t remember the last time I read something written by hand. The situation became even worse when the quarantine began, because then there was no need to write by hand. All tasks and assignments that we are preparing, the help that we receive from services like papersowl.com (https://www.trustpilot.com/review/papersowl.com) is all typed. By the way, if I have already started talking about educational services, then never use the services that you do not know about or which you have not read a review. I always try to look for a service on the trustpilot, it is a great advantage for me.

Wow, I've never thought about this before, and it's really true! I don’t remember the last time I read something written by hand.

[Tom M King]

When our Daughter, born in 1988, was little, we went into some office that had a typewriter on a desk. She asked, "What's that?" She had been using a computer for a good while.