Neat backsaw handle.

[Stewie Simpson]

Having the saw plate, brass back, and other parts to make at least another dozen backsaws, I came across this open handle design that I plan to replicate.

Doing a search through Simon Bailey's book British Saws and Sawmakers from circa 1660, the maker of this saw could be BROOKES Brothers (1862) or William BROOKES (1841 - 1871).

The original photo will need to be resized to accomodate 3 handle sizes Small; Medium; and Large. Dovetail and Carcass Saws.

I have some sweet looking dark Tas.Tiger Myrtle & figured Queensland Maple as 2 species of timber for the handle wood.

regards; Stewie;

[Frederick Skelly]

The handle on my LN dovetail saw resembles that (antique) one. I find mine very comfortable.
Hope you will post build pictures.

Fred

[Jim Koepke]

It appears to break with the idea of having the bottom of tote above the tooth line.

This can be important when one is working with a bench hook.

The curvature at the top horn does look like it would nest comfortably in hand.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Stewie, in addition to being long, the handle appears to have a lower-than-usual hang. This may be the photo. Can you comment on these?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ron Bontz]

Good to hear from you , Stewie.
The plate looks a little short as well, adding to the appearance of a handle below the tooth line. 30* hang perhaps? Is the back 3/4" or perhaps 5/8"?
Take care,
Ron

[William Fretwell]

That handle wraps around the hand top and bottom, with thumb rested you have great control of the saw without your hand being crushed as most saws do to mine. Large size please!

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi Ron; good to hear from you. The photo of the dovetail saw was from ebay. The seller didnt provide details on the depth of the back, but the length of saw plate is quoted as being 6 inch. The grip of the handle looks a little long for my taste, but it may have been supplied that way by the maker for a user with a xxl hand size. I will likely reduce the length of the grip prior to resizing the overall specs later on. The centre of effort looks to be slightly forward of the half way mark on the saw plates tooth line, which is about right for this type of back saw. You got to give credit to these early pioneers of the saw making world. They came up with some beautifully designed and shaped handles. Much greater effort and wisdom than some of the modern designs we see today.

regards and best wishes; Stewie



https://www.carbatec.com.au/Images/ProductImages/Medium/05T05-01.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

That handle wraps around the hand top and bottom, with thumb rested you have great control of the saw without your hand being crushed as most saws do to mine. Large size please!

Yes on the "Large size please!"

The 'feel' of a tool in hand is my reason for making my own chisel handles. Have only made a couple of saw totes/handles so far. Often western saw totes/handles can be modified and opened up to accommodate a larger hand. Many of the later Disston saws have an almost too big and boxy tote/handle

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

You got to give credit to these early pioneers of the saw making world. They came up with some beautifully designed and shaped handles. Much greater effort and wisdom than some of the modern designs we see today.

The difference may be in the times. The century or two between now and then and the time allotted to making a tote for a saw. Today's mass produced saws may not even have a person cutting or loading blanks in to a machine that spits them out in 20 seconds.

The image makes me wonder about the saw Stewie. The curved cut out near the saw plate looks like a finger rest on one of my saws. Only where it is on this saw would be for using left handed.

Looking at the listing it looks like the curvature may be caused by use when compared to the other side of the saw. It may have been used by multiple users during its long life.

jtk

[Pete Taran]

Much greater effort and wisdom than some of the modern designs we see today.

regards and best wishes; Stewie



https://www.carbatec.com.au/Images/ProductImages/Medium/05T05-01.jpg

Stewart,

Always a pleasure to hear from you after a prolonged absence. Curious, is your re-emergence always accompanied by a cheap shot as the one above? When you start a multimillion dollar company suppling tools to people all over the globe, please do let us know, will you?

The saw shown isn't a bespoke piece of art, but neither does it cost $500. It fills a much needed niche for people starting out and is quite good considering the modest cost.

All the best!

[Stewie Simpson]

The following example shows the difference in hang angles on open handle backsaws.

regards Stewie;

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The following small sample shows the difference in hang angles on open handle backsaws.

regards Stewie;

Very nice, thanks for that Stewie!

[Frederick Skelly]

Very nice, thanks for that Stewie!

+1........

[Derek Cohen]

Very interesting, Stewie.

Can you put names to the saws? It would be useful to know if certain makers, even particular years of make, have a preference for a hang angle.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pete Taran]

Interesting but should only be considered notionally correct, not precise. Many older saws with split nuts have one broken or loose which can affect that handle angle greatly. No way of knowing what orientation it might be in when the picture was taken. That is, spine fully seated, cocked at front or cocked at rear. In general, the angle over time has relaxed from near vertical to similar to what is shown in the graphic.

Additionally, through repeated drops to the floor, even if the handle is tight, the spine is likely driven in at the toe of the saw which will also impact the "angle" since the spine is no longer parallel to the cutting edge. I know many believe that "tapered" blades were a thing, pointing to the saws in the Seaton chest, but in my view, the vast majority are saws that have had a rough life as almost all saws have. I'm not aware of any engravings or etchings which show the tapered arrangement at least in American literature. I know this is contested by some, but for the purposes of this discussion, if the spine is driven at the toe, it will affect the hang angle because that is the x axis and the basis for measurement.

If both of these are in play, observed angle in a picture is meaningless.

Yours in saw arcana.

[Stewie Simpson]

Started playing around with some changes to the original handle design. (shown left)

The changes include reducing the total length of the grip; plus adding some additional thickness on the inside profile of the grip back to the neck of the handle.

I plane to reduce to the stock depth of the hardback from 3/4" down to 1/2". That will allow the saw bolts to remain in their current location.

The depth of the saw plate below the hardback will be 2 1/2 inches..

The length of saw plate will likely be 10" for the dt, and 12' carcass.

regards Stewie;

[Warren Mickley]

I know many believe that "tapered" blades were a thing, pointing to the saws in the Seaton chest, but in my view, the vast majority are saws that have had a rough life as almost all saws have. I'm not aware of any engravings or etchings which show the tapered arrangement at least in American literature.



It is beyond peculiar that you suggest that an English saw might not have been originally tapered because tapered saws do not show up in "American literature". Have you done enough research to know that illustrations of tapered saws show up in English literature? Here is one of many:

459200

If you have seen illustrations of saws in "American Literature" before 1830, I would be interested in seeing them also.

[Stewie Simpson]

Pete; you might want to read page 57 of Simon Barley's book British Saws & Saw Makers from 1660.

regards Stewie;

[Pete Taran]

I'm familiar with both gents and it's not remotely peculiar. There is no known instance of any US maker at any point in time showing a tapered saw back. I have original catalogs going back to the mid 1800s, and it just doesn't exist. Any suggestion to the contrary needs backed up by examples not derisive comments suggesting lack of research.

Additionally, in the English literature I have, they show parallel backs as well, at least from the late 19th Century on. Who has a usable example of a 1720 English saw? If the tapered back was such a fantastic and required feature, why was it not carried forward and use in America? Inquiring minds want to know.

Interestingly, no comment on the points about hang angle in light of those two tremendous variables which impact the angle? Namely deformed spine and loose handle?

[Warren Mickley]

I'm familiar with both gents and it's not remotely peculiar. There is no known instance of any US maker at any point in time showing a tapered saw back. I have original catalogs going back to the mid 1800s, and it just doesn't exist. Any suggestion to the contrary needs backed up by examples not derisive comments suggesting lack of research.

Additionally, in the English literature I have, they show parallel backs as well, at least from the late 19th Century on. Who has a usable example of a 1720 English saw? If the tapered back was such a fantastic and required feature, why was it not carried forward and use in America? Inquiring minds want to know.

Interestingly, no comment on the points about hang angle in light of those two tremendous variables which impact the angle? Namely deformed spine and loose handle?

Nobody has suggested that tapered saws were made in America in the late 19th century. However, Pete Taran has suggested that the saws that Seaton bought from Christopher Gabriel of London in 1796, might not have been tapered originally. His evidence is American catalogues of sixty years later. One could use this kind of logic to suggest there were no black and white TVs in the 1950s.

I gave an explanation of some advantages of a tapered back saw on this forum three years ago. Pete Taran wrote in the same thread an hour later; all he was interested in was Disston.

[Stewie Simpson]

Interestingly, no comment on the points about hang angle in light of those two tremendous variables which impact the angle? Namely deformed spine and loose handle?

Pete; I havent bothered to argue the point because our views will differ on this topic. Is it worth a long debate. The answer is no.

regards Stewie;

[Pete Taran]

Warren,

The bait and switch is fantastic and very amusing. I ask again, if the tapered saw blade was the Acme of sawing delight, why is it only seen on very early British saws, and very few at that? I have not seen an example in tool making where a superior feature faded away in favor of one much less satisfactory and one that could be made at the same cost.

And while you attempt to point out that comparing American products from 60 years later is ridiculous, the idea has merit. Recall that Disston and others labelled their best steel London Spring. They did this to persuade the market that the fledgling US steel market was as good as steel made in England, and to even trick them to think that it was made in England. They also copied many other features of British saws because that was what the market expected and held up as perfection. So, if the fantastic tapered back were real, and the cat's pajamas as you suggest, then why was it not copied and why do we not see it in catalogues of the day? Because they forgot? Or because it was never a thing to start with.

You might consider some of the deeper aspects of saw history before you pass judgement on those who have.

But you are right, I'm only interested in Disston. Thank you for the kind reminder, I had forgotten.

[Stewie Simpson]

Started work on reducing the height of the brass hardbacks from 3/4" to 1/2".

Not the most enjoyable part of this project.

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

1st batch of brass hardbacks have been cut to width, length, and stamped on the hydraulic press.

regards Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

Cutting the slot on the router table to 0.020" for the dovetail saw hardbacks.

regards Stewie;

[Frederick Skelly]

Interesting stuff Stewie. Look forward to seeing the rest of this build.

[Stewie Simpson]

Saw plates been cut to size. The carcass & Dovetail Saws will both be at 0.020" in saw plate thickness.

Later during the week I will focus on preparing the stock for the backsaw handles.

regards Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

Queensland Maple dressed down to 23mm thickness for the backsaw handles.

I plan to make up some hard templates with 2 location holes that will allow me to precisely mark both sides of the handle blank.

regards Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

Its been a while since I posted an update on the backsaw builds. I wasnt totally happy with the general shape of the Brookes handle. I had shortened the grip length from original, but the neck area between the grip and the cheeks still concerned me. Rather than make further changes to the drawing I put it aside and am using an earlier open handle design that I had used in the past. Its by Moses Eadon (circa 1800s). In the attachments I have also included a photo of the handle template using steel dowels that allows me to accurately mark out the handle shape on both primary flats. It makes the later removal of waste outside the lines so much easier to complete.

regards Stewie;

[Keegan Shields]

This is the most heated discussion of woodworking saws I’ve witnessed. I’m new around here, but is this normal? You guys really like your saws.

Great info though… ;)

[Jim Koepke]

This is the most heated discussion of woodworking saws I’ve witnessed. I’m new around here, but is this normal? You guys really like your saws.

Great info though… ;)

Howdy Keegan and welcome to the cave by the Creek.

If you think this is heated, try a sharpening thread.

jtk

[Keegan Shields]

Hahaha I bet that thread gets rowdy.

[Jim Koepke]

Hahaha I bet that thread gets rowdy.

Yes, not only are the comments rather sharp, they can be very cutting. :eek:

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

Waste removal outside the lines was completed on the 6 handles.

The saw bolts have been installed using a 1/2" pilot counterbore.

To achieve additional clearance with the bottom horn of the handle the toothlines have been canted to a value of 1mm per 1 inch length.

regards Stewie;

[Frederick Skelly]

Those are coming along great Stewie!

[Stewie Simpson]

To complete the saw plate slot in the handle a starting kerf is formed on the router table then taken to full depth using a backsaw of matching kerf width,

When marking out the hardback mortise, a length of slotted brass back is fitted to the top and bottom edges of the saw plate to keep the saw plate in parallel alignment.

regards Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

Those are coming along great Stewie!

Thanks Fred; it might spark some interest from others to try making their own backsaws.

regards Stewie;