Mortise and Tenon Question

[Larry Klaaren]

Hi everybody,

I'm still new to the Creek I guess. Anybody out there from Indy?

I am making an oak table right now using mortise and tenons.

The fit was a little too tight, and I chiseled down two of the tenons, and also had to chisel the mortise a bit. All of a sudden, it was too loose. The tenons fall out.

This is my first experience with this small of a mortise and tenon. Actually, my first experience with indoor furniture. My question is, should I put in a shim or something to firm it up, or is there something else to do, or nothing but glue it up? One of them is very loose, the other one has a little contact, but still falls out. The other six are probably OK.

Other than this, the table looks great. I made a jig and got the taper set up, but the rail slid on the very first pass. I forgot to tighten it. However, it made a straight dut, so I just tightened it and all of the tapers are the same. It actually looks more refined than the one I planned to make. My other mistakes also improved the look of the table.:D

Just like public speaking, make it seem like your mistake was your plan I guess!

Thanks,
Larry Klaaren

[tod evans]

welcome larry. if it was me i`d glue a piece of thin wood to the tennon and trim it to fit after the glue dried. a good snug fit is imperative to the function of the joint. tod

[Mark Singer]

Do what Tod said and epoxy will help if your joints are not perfect

[Larry Klaaren]

Ok, I am guessing that I'd make the thin piece and run the grain the same way as on the tenon. I was thinking about that. I'd appreciate knowing if there are any more subtleties to it.

I didn't mention that there is a corner brace also, so that will help too.

Todd, aren't you the guy with the famous quote . . . "If any old Joe can do it in his garage, there isn't any money in it?" Can I have your permission to use it as a quote in a speech two days ago? It just sort of came to me at the time, I was speaking extemporaneously. Made the point though.

Larry

[tod evans]

Ok, I am guessing that I'd make the thin piece and run the grain the same way as on the tenon. I was thinking about that. I'd appreciate knowing if there are any more subtleties to it.

I didn't mention that there is a corner brace also, so that will help too.

Todd, aren't you the guy with the famous quote . . . "If any old Joe can do it in his garage, there isn't any money in it?" Can I have your permission to use it as a quote in a speech two days ago? It just sort of came to me at the time, I was speaking extemporaneously. Made the point though.

Larry

feel free man, i just spout off hillbilly perspectives at will.....:) tod

[Ralph Barhorst]

You might want to glue on some veneer to tighten up the joints. DAMHIKT.:)

[Larry Klaaren]

Had to look up DAMHIKT. Thanks, I won't. Veneer was/is a great idea.

Todd, I think it was "wisdom from the Ozarks".

Larry

[Larry Klaaren]

Duh!

The end of the tapers that I made will work very well.

Thanks again,
Larry

[Vaughn McMillan]

Duh!

The end of the tapers that I made will work very well.

Thanks again,
Larry
Slight correction...your post should say "Aha!" instead of "Duh!". It's an aha the first time you figure out a trick like you did...save duh for the second time you "discover" the same trick. :D Happens to me from time to time.

- Vaughn

[Larry Klaaren]

It felt like it was "duh" when I came to the realization that I didn't need to make this trip as I walked into the WoodsWork store during noon hour. So the mistake becomes part of the plan, right? Had to look at ... uuuh, oh yeah, chisels.

I glued those tapers a few minutes ago. Gotta get em to fit, and do some sanding.

Thanks,
Larry

[Larry Klaaren]

Is there any reason epoxy would be better than glue on something like this? Dumb question, but it's even dumber to go on not knowing!

Thanks again,
Larry

[Doug Shepard]

On the really loose ones, follow the previous suggestions of gluing on a shim. If they're just a little bit loose and you've got a hand plane you can usually get a good fit by setting your plane to take a thick shaving then glueing it on. It's the same idea, but just saves you the trouble of having to shave the shim down after gluing in order to get a fit.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Larry....the reason for using the epoxy is to better fill any small voids, I believe.

[Marcus Ward]

Epoxy's join strength is greater if there is a bit left inside the joint, rather than squeezed out like you do with regular glue. So if you've got a little gap in there it'll actually be stronger with epoxy. Good luck.

[Mark Singer]

Is there any reason epoxy would be better than glue on something like this? Dumb question, but it's even dumber to go on not knowing!

Thanks again,
Larry

Larry,
Epoxy works well in larger voids as Ken said. Pva glues rely on materials in contact wilt each other and a snug fit or clamping pressure. When people first begin making chairs, I recomend using epoxy if the joints are a bit sloppy....chairs take a lot of stress

[Corvin Alstot]

Also, if the joint should fail, you can reapply epoxy into the joint and it will adhere to the old glue (similar to hide glue in this respect). PVA glue does not allow this condition, it would have to be completely removed for it to have a strong bond.

Epoxy - easy to repair, able to fill gaps, high strength.

[Les Spencer]

Larry,

Nice to have another Hoosier at the Creek.:) I live in Plainfield.

Gorilla glue does wonders with undersize joints. Just have to be careful of the foam out.

Go Colts!!:D

[Steve Schoene]

Epoxy just about the only glue that has strength when it fills gaps. But personally I wouldn't use it for interior furniture joints. Better to shim with veneer to tighten the joint. While epoxy will stick to epoxy, like hide glue to hide glue, I can't quite convince myself that epoxy joints are practical to disassemble if needed.

By the way, best practices call for first making the mortise--make sure it is square and perpenticular to the surface and then make the tenon, and do all the trimming on the inside surface of the tenon (unless you need to move the surface of the rail closer to the surface of the leg).