Diagnosing a no. 4 1/2 Bailey Stanley from the 80s

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Hi all, a while ago I got a vintage Stanley Bailey 4 1/2 made in the uk.

My best guess is it’s from the 80s.

I’ve e been struggling with it and wanted to ask some advice.

My first issue was crazy chatter. I fixed it when I realized that by advancing the frog, it no longer had the support of the rear wall of the mouth. Now I have a wider mouth and much less chatter. It’s still giving me a hard time. I’ll advance the blade mid push stroke and get nothing out of it until all of a sudden it gouges the wood. No in between.
the blade is sharp enough to shave with, and the cap iron fits well and close to the edge

my second issue is backlash, I feel like I need to make 3 turns of the adjuster screw to actually get something out of the blade.

I am no expert here, but I do know how to plane reasonably well on my LNs 4 and 8. I know I can’t expect it to be tuned to that level but I would like to get a decent shaving out of the thing.

any advice would be appreciated.

[Tom Trees]

Not sure if I recall correctly but think David Weaver mentioned this on another plane video or thread.
Would have been better to get that one to you instead of the more recent video he made which I suggested earlier.
https://youtu.be/1q1H7zdTfyk

I think it might have been an issue with the yoke or the slot.

Tom

[Jim Koepke]

It’s still giving me a hard time. I’ll advance the blade mid push stroke and get nothing out of it until all of a sudden it gouges the wood. No in between.
the blade is sharp enough to shave with, and the cap iron fits well and close to the edge

This sounds like the plane's sole is concave from front to back. Have you checked the sole with a straight edge. One check of this is to try setting the blade with a small scrap of wood, like one or two inches. Then see if it takes a shaving on a longer piece. If not, try pressing down on the plane above the blade. If it engages then, you have a concave sole that needs to be corrected.


my second issue is backlash, I feel like I need to make 3 turns of the adjuster screw to actually get something out of the blade.

This is pretty much normal with Stanley planes. Sometimes the adjuster wheel is worn from having the lever cap too tight. This is common and something to which one has to become accustomed.

jtk

[William Fretwell]

I’m not sure how advancing the frog would give you a wider mouth. You need a narrow mouth. The gap between the blade and the front of the opening should be small to resist pulling of the grain and digging in. That can cause chatter. Also check the blade beds on the frog properly, if not it the frog needs flattening. The screw backlash is normal. Part of fixing things is changing things and see what helps, or not.

[steven c newman]

OK.......ah...nope...

There is a little ramp at the back of the mouth opening.....designed by Leonard Bailey himself.....The face of the frog is supposed to be co-plannar with the face of that ramp....NOT hanging out in the middle of nowhere, trying to do what it longer can...that little ramp provides enough support to prevent the edge of the iron from vibrating and causing chatter. Anti-tear-out comes from the chipbreaker. close the mouth up like above....all you will get done is trying to un-clog the mouth opening.....shavings have no where else to go.

The reason Bailey went with a thinner iron.....he figured the chipbreaker would combine with the thin iron to form a thick piece.....learn to use the chipbreaker the way it was intended.

Have seen way too many BADLY sharpened iron....oh, they were indeed sharp, looked good and mirror bright.....until you placed a square across right behind the edge.....have seen a few like this..~, or like the camber was install..backwards. Once the edge is straight across and resharpened....THEN you can worry about adding a touch of camber to just the corners. Once THAT is done, set the iron into the plane


Ok, next look right down the sole at the edge of the iron.....should be a straight line across.....NOW you can even see IF there is a hollow down the center of the sole. Usually this is a result of decades of wear down through there, trying to joint edges.

BTW....have also seen quite a few planes that were set up....bevel up...with a chipbreaker........chipbreaker will usually slide forward, until one is trying to plane with just the chipbreaker....doesn't work very well, loads the plane up with loads of junk ......

You might want to watch a Rex Krueger video....about a brand new LN No. 4.....that would NOT cut right out of the box....and see what was done to fix that....enlightening.

[William Fretwell]

Thanks Steve. I can see why the back of the bottom opening would have to be co-planar with the frog, so you can use it back there. Mine has never been there, I move the frog so the blade is close to the front, with enough room for the breaker and shavings. I get much better results with a small opening. I only move it back for thick shavings in soft wood. Will try and find the video you mention. I have a ‘modern’ Stanley #4 that has never worked well despite a lot of fixing.

[William Fretwell]

Watched the video Steve. The only real tweak he made was to close up the mouth and move the frog forward, my point exactly!

[Jim Koepke]

Watched the video Steve. The only real tweak he made was to close up the mouth and move the frog forward, my point exactly!

Don't forget the plane used in the video > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnV27QVLmzA < is a bedrock style plane. The geometry of how the frog seats on the plane's base allows the frog to support the blade closer to the work than on Bailey design planes.

Rex Krueger has my agreement on an important point he makes at the end of the video. Being able to fettle an old plane found at a junk shop or an estate sale is an important part of the woodworking experience. It is how many have learned to identify problems old tool might have and then correcting them.

jtk

[Alan Schwabacher]

I'd agree that the most likely problem is a concave sole if the symptoms are that advancing the blade slowly does nothing, until it suddenly takes a lot. This needs fixing first.

You should try a plane before flattening the sole, and it doesn't need to be flat to a machinist's standards, but this one sounds like it needs help. Just go until it's not concave.

Closing the mouth will only help while taking a thin shaving, so you need to do that first. And learning to set the cap iron can substitute for closing the mouth in many cases.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

The reason Bailey went with a thinner iron.....he figured the chipbreaker would combine with the thin iron to form a thick piece.....learn to use the chipbreaker the way it was intended.

Chipbreaker is set 1/32 from edge - I filed it square (finished with water stones) and there is no light between it and the blade (its tight)



Have seen way too many BADLY sharpened iron....oh, they were indeed sharp, looked good and mirror bright.....until you placed a square across right behind the edge.....have seen a few like this..~, or like the camber was install..backwards. Once the edge is straight across and resharpened....THEN you can worry about adding a touch of camber to just the corners. Once THAT is done, set the iron into the plane
Blade is sharp and square - LN honing guide won't let me take it out of square



Ok, next look right down the sole at the edge of the iron.....should be a straight line across.....NOW you can even see IF there is a hollow down the center of the sole. Usually this is a result of decades of wear down through there, trying to joint edges.
there is a slight concave to the plane bottom - I am waiting on getting a good straight reference surface before I flatten the sole




BTW....have also seen quite a few planes that were set up....bevel up...with a chipbreaker........chipbreaker will usually slide forward, until one is trying to plane with just the chipbreaker....doesn't work very well, loads the plane up with loads of junk ......
I don't even know how to comment on this... short answer is that that isn't the problem

[Jim Koepke]

there is a slight concave to the plane bottom - I am waiting on getting a good straight reference surface before I flatten the sole

Discovering this on a plane surprised me to learn the cast iron sole on a plane will flex a little. It seems when the blade finally touches the wood, it dives in and takes a thicker shaving. In some cases it catches, releases then repeats the cycle into a chattering hunk of iron.

An SMC member brought me a #3 that had a convex sole. That was a nasty bugger to try and take a shaving before a bit of lapping.

One does need to take care when lapping to not make a problem worse or to turn a perfectly good plane into a problem. Figure out what needs to be done, then constantly check to make sure that is all that is being done.

jtk

[steven c newman]

I just picked a Stanley No. 4, Type 20 yesterday......$29 + Tax....
457714
Haven't started on it just yet.....Can already tell the iron is VERY dull. Have managed to get the Depth Adjuster wheel to move freely again.
457715
May have to work on the top of the front handle.....might need a few washers in there?

At least it passed the 2 Finger Test....sole does sit flat on a table top. May give this plane a going over, and see IF the OP's problems show up.....may include a few picture along the way...

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I'm including a picture of the planes sole against the light with a Starrett straight edge.
do you guys thing that could be concave enough to cause the issues?
457732

[Jim Koepke]

I'm including a picture of the planes sole against the light with a Starrett straight edge.
do you guys thing that could be concave enough to cause the issues?
457732

Yep.

It looks like it may have a bit of a wave.

This is the time to gather your assets.

First would be if you know someone with or in a machine shop. They may have the equipment to turn the sole into a flat surface and at 90º to the sides. (having the sides at right angles to the base is good, but not essential.)

If that is not an option…

Next would be if you have a flat reference surface and be willing to do the work yourself. This would be the ramp of a joiner or the top of a table saw.

Here is how mine was found > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?133080 < FYI monument makers are the people who carve grave markers.

Here is the stand made for holding it > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?134511 < It is made to a basic saw horse design.

There are other sources of a solid flat surface.

Then there is the technique. Sometimes it is advantageous to run the sole sideways down a thin strip. Avoid pressing down hard. It seems the right thing to do, but it may cause problems.

Yours looks like it has a gap between the mouth area and the tail end with the toe above these. Care will be required to not rock the plane, removing metal from the toe that shouldn't be removed.

Of course it is difficult to properly diagnose with one image. That is better done in person with a careful eye. It also needs to be done often. Cast iron wears off fast with fresh sandpaper. One also needs to remove the iron swarf from the sandpaper. Mine is removed with a magnet wrapped in paper on every other stroke. The removed iron piles up fast. That is why one needs to check often and to clean the abrasive often.

If you are using a piece of equipment like a table saw you may want to clean up often with a shop vacuum to avoid getting the iron particles in the machine.

jtk

[Thomas Wilson]

Yes. That is bad. Convex can work if you hold it right and are just intent on smoothing. Concave is a problem.

[Jim Koepke]

Convex can also be a pain in the tukus. Especially if one is trained to start with registering the toe then shifting the emphasis to the plane's heel.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Hmmm...a Stanley No. 4....from about that same era...
457892
Took about one hour...
457893
100 grit beltsander to "flatten" the sole.....it had passed the 2-finger test, was in need of a good cleaning..
457894
Sides did not NEED too much work, as this will NOT be a shooting plane, anyway.
457895
Cleaned the crud and grime off. Sharpen the iron @25 degrees, flatten the back...hone to 2500 grit.....make sure the chipbreaker sits gap free...and 1/64" back from the edge....no back bevel required..
457896
Set up an Ash Test Track.....no tear-outs, no chatter observed....ready to join it's English Cousin..
457902
Did NOT take all that long to do....

[Jerome Andrieux]

The problem you described reminds me of a front to back concave sole, which is the simplest to fix. Twisted or convex are difficult with specialized tools.
With a concave sole, the blade has to protude a lot before touching the wood (except at the start and end of the cut, resulting in a convex surface). Then once it cuts, it goes deep.

It's difficult to judge from only this photo but it looks like a wavy sole with something like 1mm+ difference. This is bad. I would not keep it.

I understand from your previous posts that getting your hands on wood and tools is difficult. You will be safer buying new from LN/LV/QS. Old stanley are often bad but we don't mind to much if they are not rare nor expensive.
Actually, the only place they are not rare or expensive are North America and the UK. They are not that rare but expensive in many other places.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

yeah, I am not ready to throw out the baby with the bathwater yet... I found a machinist who will try and flatten the sole of the plane and square up the sides (they mushroom out a bit towards the front of the plane). the machinist is a friend of my SO's father - so I won't be burning more money trying to fix it.

Overall though, this is why all my other planes are new and premium - the Stanley 4-1/2 cost me just upwards of $90 US. Id rather buy a tool I know that works than order one on ebay and pay north of $200 with tax and shipping just to find out it is too far gone. only reason I bought this one was I could inspect it first (not that that did me much good).


If the machinist can flatten the sole Ill let you all know

[lowell holmes]

I would start by honing the plane's sole on my saw table using 120 sand paper and then check it for flatness and square.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

If I had access to a flat surface, I would do that.

Can't find float glass around here
granite surface plate not in the budget
I wish I had a table saw...

I am taking the sole to a friend who knows a machinist
Ill hope for the best

[Chuck Hill]

You must be able to find float glass. I think that all glass now is float glass unless you are buying special textured glass. I just got a 3mm pane of glass to replace a garage window. It was float glass. I asked at the glass shop and was told that float glass is regular glass. You do want something more sturdy than 3mm though! A marble or granite floor tile should work too, but check the flatness first. All the ones that I have checked were flat enough: dead flat according to my Lee Valley precession straight edge.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

you would think that, right?

I went to a store dealing with glass with a 12" Starrett combination square as a straight edge - nothing was remotely flat - didn't even need a feeler gauges to check.

I told the vendor and he said he would look into it.

in the mean time I do the best with what I have

[Tom Trees]

Your plane does indeed sound concave, but if you're only planing a wee bit, it could be (as in most cases it is from what I've seen)
that your bench could indeed be a workmate and you're deflecting the material.
Did you watch any of Mr Charlesworth's stuff on youtube?


From the lapping methodology that most demonstrate, I wouldn't think flatness/tolerance matters much if one has no choice either way
on which material they wish to keep and which they wish to remove.

I think you might be able to find a few glass shelves from a fridge, that you could wrangle together, (if they pass your test)
For all who think a flat surface makes lapping fool proof,
Note that abrasion favours the ends!
The lap will tell you that, if your sole is coloured in, still don't believe this...
Try and not to remove the perimeter when lapping any flat thing with a huge abrasive surface, but try do the opposite instead,
Basically saying its impossible to concentrate on areas without a smaller abrasive than the item in question would be, unless you're targeting the very edge.

A big lap is for checking, not needed for working.458230
458229


Even if you need to remove from the ends of the plane with a larger lap than the item is,
you're going to approach flat at some point, and want to target areas, as if too much has been removed from the edges
you loose your nice reference points and start to create a belly which just gets more and more pronounced.
And since there's only one contact point if that happens, then you might also start to create a belly the other way along the width also
as one contact point will rock.

On a wide plane like the 4 1/2, if you're intending to use the cap iron, i.e unnoticable camber, then a belly along the width is bad news.

[James Spangler]

Yep... It also needs to be done often. Cast iron wears off fast with fresh sandpaper. One also needs to remove the iron swarf from the sandpaper. Mine is removed with a magnet wrapped in paper on every other stroke. The removed iron piles up fast. That is why one needs to check often and to clean the abrasive often.
jtk


Thank you Jim for this tip! When lapping plane bottoms, I use my shop vac to suck up the fine cast iron dust and the internal filter gets clogged frequently. The paper over the magnet trick will allow me to pick up the swarf and transfer it over to the waste bin and save my shop vac. (Also, thanks for adding "swarf" to my vocabulary :)).

[Jim Koepke]

Glad to be of help. :D

jtk

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Its warped - the area before the mouth is concaved and the area immediately after is convex

[Tom Trees]

Blue or colour in with marker the whole plane, a single stroke or two on a lap, the shiny spots will be the high ones.
Target those areas with a short bit of abrasive, a rectangle of some size shorter than the plane,
depending on if how much the middle will take to flatten, (say there's a trench in it)
a narrower strip than the plane is, is more likely to guarantee the plane will stay flat across the width.
You can do a figure 8 and overlap along the edges to feather it off.
Leave touching the rest like the heel and toe until you colour in the sole and check again.

You may need to rinse and repeat with a slightly longer strip this time, a bit of overlapping again but including the entire length to get an idea of flatness heel to toe,
and when that's done, and you check with the ink again, there should be ink removed from the edges only with two rubs on a full sized lap (something larger than the plane is will do)
Another few swipes if you like afterwards, if you wish to make it ever so slightly convex again.
Some folk say a Lie Nielsen plane has too much friction and is hungry for wax, but regardless if you wish to get it that flat or not,
best to know how to achieve the results you're after, as many articles and videos can be convincing.
More of an issue with say a no.5, but worth mentioning, none the less.

Good notes about keeping abrasive clean, I like to use some self stick adhesive, or to use spray on stuff on cheaper rolls, as they are good for holding another
abrasive on top, if you use above method, this is a better way to avoid wasting time and your abrasive floating on the grit.

ps, Another trick for checking your surface plate is by getting a pair of squares, or a square and a block,
and pushing one against the other with a light source behind.


Good luck
Tom