TORMEK Policy Change and Amazon.com

[Jeff Farris]

I have recently received a message from TORMEK that explains why they have severed their relationship with Amazon.com. TORMEK has decided that in the future all of their distributors must have a retail presence at some level, with staff familiar with the system, who are able to answer fundamental questions about the system's operation before and after purchase.

This decision proves TORMEK's commitment to their end user customers. TORMEK and their appointed distributor partners anticipate that most customers will value more qualified sources from which to purchase a TORMEK system. Everyone involved will do whatever we can to make this transition in policy as smooth as possible for the customers. If you have a backorder with Amazon, your best move is to cancel the order and place it with another TORMEK distributor. If you are considering the purchase of a competitive system because of any doubts raised by the sudden disappearance of TORMEK from Amazon's system, rest assured that TORMEK's strength and commitment to the woodworking and sharpening market is unwavering, stronger than ever and forward looking.

Best regards,

Jeff Farris
SharpToolsUSA

[Howard Barlow]

Like Stihl. Good policy.

[Bill Lewis]

I don't understand this. Amazon is the online distributer for Tool companies such as Tool Crib of the North, which still continues to sell Tormek. Tool Crib may have a retail location, but the majority of thier sales are either through Amazon, or Mail/Telephone orders. My dealings with them in the past is that they are knowledgeable regarding the products they sell. Amazon doesn't make any secret they they are sell for other companies either so any problems/support would still go to Tool Crib.
I suspect there are other issues going on here, like maybe how amazon does have the ability to perform short term extreme discounts as I have read here. These tactic may have gotten the direct retailers mad at Tormek. It's just a thought, there may be other explanations, or conspiracy theories at play.

[Steve Schoene]

Perhaps it is easier to maintain retail prices by working through smaller merchants. Alternatively, Amazon may have been seeking a lower price from Tormek based on their volume, and Tormek called their bluff. Or perhaps the reasons are as stated in the press release.

[David Abel]

I have recently received a message from TORMEK that explains why they have severed their relationship with Amazon.com. TORMEK has decided that in the future all of their distributors must have a retail presence at some level, with staff familiar with the system, who are able to answer fundamental questions about the system's operation before and after purchase.

This decision proves TORMEK's commitment to their end user customers. TORMEK and their appointed distributor partners anticipate that most customers will value more qualified sources from which to purchase a TORMEK system. Everyone involved will do whatever we can to make this transition in policy as smooth as possible for the customers. If you have a backorder with Amazon, your best move is to cancel the order and place it with another TORMEK distributor. If you are considering the purchase of a competitive system because of any doubts raised by the sudden disappearance of TORMEK from Amazon's system, rest assured that TORMEK's strength and commitment to the woodworking and sharpening market is unwavering, stronger than ever and forward looking.

Best regards,

Jeff Farris
SharpToolsUSA

Jeez, can't they develop a video(s) and instructions up to the task of demonstrating all aspects of the use of a Tormek? I can't fathom why a manufacturer would put someting on the market that can't be used without handholding. Retailers really don't want to be asked 21 questions after the sale, so if Tormek can provide pre-sales info for potential purchases to read, and include instructions with the unit as I mentioned at the top of this post, there should be no need for a retailer to hold hands with the end user.

[Michael Ballent]

...I suspect there are other issues going on here, like maybe how amazon does have the ability to perform short term extreme discounts as I have read here. These tactic may have gotten the direct retailers mad at Tormek. It's just a thought, there may be other explanations, or conspiracy theories at play.

I think that you are correct as far as the extreme discounts. I have seen people that were able to purchase a Tormek for $300. The $400 price tag is tough to swallow, although I have heard glowing reviews for the system, it is quite pricey. I am sure that there are dealers out there that were sweating whenever Amazon was blowing the Tormeks out the door.

The logic for splitting from Amazon has to be money and not customer support. If I buy a Tormek from some other online source, I cannot just walk into their store... I still need to make a call, which can be as easily accomplished by calling the company directly. They have a premium product and as such I would expect premium support and excellent manuals. The Leigh jig comes to mind as an example... Expensive, but the manuals are excellent. If Tormek really wanted to make sure that customers and vendors would get together, then they would not allow any online selling in the first place. Then if I want to buy a Tormek I have to locate my friendly local Tormek dealer, drive to their location, buy the machine, some accessories, and know that I just helped out the local guy and if I run into a snag I can drive back the the local dealer and they can help me...yeah right.

Sorry Jeff, I do not buy this explanation... It's dollars and cents, not customer service.

[Jeff Farris]

..... Or perhaps the reasons are as stated in the press release.

Although I am a third party to this painstaking and arduous decision on TORMEK's part, I can assure you, it has cost TORMEK thousands of dollars, that may or may not be replaced by other distributors.

Bill Lewis: Amazon has cut their ties with Tool Crib of the North, which in part started this ball rolling.

David Abel: There are few products on the market that have better instructional material than the TORMEK. And, I say with all confidence that there is nothing in the way of sharpening equipment that is as well documented. That said, it is a complex system that has many options. Most customers need only a few options, some need none, others want them all. How is an "order taker" going to be able to help the customer work through those options? Maybe you don't need your hand held, but someone with less confidence and less experience will appreciate it.

Howard Barlow: Thanks for the vote of confidence. Your example is a perfect illustration of the direction TORMEK has decided is best for the company and their customers.

[Ken Garlock]

Sounds like Bovine Excrement to me:( Their move is tantamount to price fixing.

[Jeff Farris]

....

Sorry Jeff, I do not buy this explanation... It's dollars and cents, not customer service.


I haven't been accused of misleading people very often, and to be honest, I don't appreciate it. You are absolutely wrong. Although, it appears that your cynical view is shared by quite a few responders already. I think that makes a rather sad statement about the views of people toward any corporate entity, and I agree that many corporations have done all they can to instill this jaded view. However, that is a discussion for a different forum at another time.

I assure you, this decision has cost TORMEK many thousands of dollars - more than you might imagine they could possibly walk away from. Those cancelled booked orders are to be balanced by the potential for better long term performance due to better customer relations with both their dealers and their end users.

[Carl Crout]

I like my Scheppach Tiger 2000 Tormek clone from Hartville Tool. It works good and was cheaper. Also was made in Germany and Germany is known for quality.

From what I read the german distributor got tired of messing with Tormek and come up with their own product.

The wheel maybe smaller in diameter but it is a better quality wheel, contrary to what Tormek says...

[Jeff Farris]

Sounds like Bovine Excrement to me:( Their move is tantamount to price fixing.

Price fixing means that a distributor is cut off if they discount prices below acceptable levels. That has nothing to do with what TORMEK has done. If I close my storefront in Springfield and stop doing shows for TORMEK, relying completely on internet sales, I would be cut off, too.

Geez, you guys are a cynical bunch.

Do you really like dealing with clueless order takers?

[Matt Meiser]

Those cancelled booked orders are to be balanced by the potential for better long term performance due to better customer relations with both their dealers and their end users.

Doesn't that contradict what you've already said? Besides eliminating a low cost alternate, how does this move help their relationship with other dealers? Sorry, but I have to agree with the other posters. These things usually are about money.

Now, don't get me wrong, I chose to buy my Tormek from you because of the customer service I had heard I would have available to me. Since it a great product, I haven't needed to use that. I usually don't buy from Amazon besides for books because of the hassle, so I could care less whether or not they sell a particular tool.

[Matt Meiser]

Geez, you guys are a cynical bunch.

Its pretty hard not to be when it comes to corporations making decisions that lead to higher consumer prices.


Do you really like dealing with clueless order takers?

Not usually, but its about the same as shopping at Wal-Mart, which I do less and less.

[Jeff Farris]

Okay, here is an example. It is something that I have experienced hundreds of times over the years, and I can imagine that every Woodcraft and Rockler floor sales rep has experienced it as well. We'll make you the dealer. so you can experience it, too.

A customer comes in your store, and expresses interest in the TORMEK. You spend the better part of an hour going over the machine with him. You ignore other customers, because this guy's intensity level has convinced you that he is serious about dropping the hammer today. You ask him if he's ready to take one home, and he says to you,


"Oh, I bought it from Amazon last week. I just wanted you to show me how to use it."

As part of my agreement to represent TORMEK at The Woodworking Shows, I smile and continue helping them as best I can. But, if I was a Woodcraft store owner or manager, my reaction might be different.

Relating back to the first response in this thread, Stihl power equipment has maintained a loyal distributor base and a loyal end user base by staying out of the big boxes and away from Amazon. The dealers are happy with Stihl, the end users are happy with the dealers, and yes, Stihl knows that they could sell thousands more saws if they would drop the price and open up the lines of distribution. But how long would it last?

[Steve Rowe]

Doesn't that contradict what you've already said? Besides eliminating a low cost alternate, how does this move help their relationship with other dealers? Sorry, but I have to agree with the other posters. These things usually are about money.
Tormek and every other manufacturer has every right to determine the manner in which its product is marketed and sold. Their dealer network also has the responsibility to abide by those contract terms. If not, terminate their Tormek dealership.

The reality is that the Tormek system (and many others) do not sell themselves. They must be demonstrated to potential buyers or it would just be looked at as if were just another bench grinder. This pulls it out of the realm of being a commodity and thus has different factors driving its success (or failure) other than price.

Consider this possibility. Allowing this to continue could result in non-Amazon dealers getting fed up demonstrating the Tormek product to potential buyers and these buyers then purchase from Amazon because the price is lower. Mind you, Amazon bore no expense to demonstrate the product on whose sale they profitted therefore, you should expect the price to be lower. This continues and eventually, the non-Amazon dealers terminate their relationships with Tormek. And now; no one demonstrates the product and the only place to buy is Amazon. Sales plummet because no one demonstrates, markets, and actually sells the product and Tormek goes out of business. So yes, it is about money, dealer support, and customer support, but with far more reaching impacts than the average consumer (who always wants the lowest price) might think of. I, for one, look at the value of the item purchased and that is why I also purchased from SharpTools USA.

[Ken Shoemaker]

I recall a few years back, Coke changed the recipe of their famous product. Arguably this became the business worlds most famous blunder. After Googling the TiGer 2000, and seeing what appeares to be a very similar product at 3/4 the price, I wonder if we may be about to witness the second most remarkable business blunder?

[Phil Maddox]

"Do you really like dealing with clueless order takers?"

Obviously the answer is yes! Many people would rather buy from clueless order takers, that is why they (and I) buy from Amazon.

Tormek weighed the options of selling through their dealers and the sales through Amazon and decided in the long run that they would make more money by not selling cheaply to Amazon. Simple math. A business decision.

To think (or state) that the decision was made to better serve the customer without regard to profit is ludicrous! It is an insult to everyone's intelligence.

My gut tells me the decision is incorrect and profits will go down. My gut has been wrong before.

For the record, I do not own a Tormek and never will. It seems to be of very high quality and well thought out and engineered. That being said, it is overpriced in my opinion and I don't need it's versatility.

I do not mean to be offensive so please don't take it that way.

I hope it works out.

Phil

[Matt Meiser]

"Oh, I bought it from Amazon last week. I just wanted you to show me how to use it."

But you are putting in a pretty serious investment, both financially and in terms of your time, in demonstrating the system to thousands every week. Won't al lot of them buy from Woodcraft, Rockler, or Hartville Tool?

I just can't see this as being good for you, because the backlash from people hearing about this decision will make people angry with Tormek and I think a lot of people have the same impression I had--that you and Tormek are one, not two separate companies. I'd bet Amazon will pick up the Scheppach in no time and help them break into the market.

[Matt Meiser]

For the record, I do not own a Tormek and never will. It seems to be of very high quality and well thought out and engineered. That being said, it is overpriced in my opinion and I don't need it's versatility.


I kept saying that to myself and others too. But here I am... I think that microphone system Jeff uses at the shows is secretly altering our brain waves. :D

[Jeff Farris]

I recall a few years back, Coke changed the recipe of their famous product. Arguably this became the business worlds most famous blunder. After Googling the TiGer 2000, and seeing what appeares to be a very similar product at 3/4 the price, I wonder if we may be about to witness the second most remarkable business blunder?

Only if every customer buys blindly on price and doesn't compare the machines feature for feature or watch them both in action.

[Matt Meiser]

my storefront in Springfield

BTW, I thought you were in Grain Valley? I was doing a project in Concordia a few years ago that required me to be on site for several weeks. Since there are no decent hotels in Concordia, we were staying in Independence so I drove past Grain Valley every day. I was thinking about stopping and trying to find you a few times but I got the impression from your web site that you were internet and shows only at that time.

[Jeff Farris]

But you are putting in a pretty serious investment, both financially and in terms of your time, in demonstrating the system to thousands every week. Won't al lot of them buy from Woodcraft, Rockler, or Hartville Tool?

Yes, I lose some sales to Woodcraft, Rockler and Hartville. But I also get some guys who have seen it in the store and want a more detailed explanation. You win some and you lose some. Amazon doesn't sow any seeds, they just harvest.


I just can't see this as being good for you, because the backlash from people hearing about this decision will make people angry with Tormek and I think a lot of people have the same impression I had--that you and Tormek are one, not two separate companies. I'd bet Amazon will pick up the Scheppach in no time and help them break into the market.

It is an unfortunate sequence of events that the Scheppach machine is trying to launch their copycat machine at the same time that TORMEK is strengthening their commitment to retail distribution.

It has never been the intention of either SharpToolsUSA or TORMEK to appear as one. I buy just like Woodcraft, Rockler, and Hartville (and like Amazon used to). I have a contract with TORMEK to handle their parts distrubution, warranty work, and customer service. I also have their written agreement that no other dealer will demonstrate or sell TORMEK at The Woodworking Shows.

[Jeff Farris]

BTW, I thought you were in Grain Valley? I was doing a project in Concordia a few years ago that required me to be on site for several weeks. Since there are no decent hotels in Concordia, we were staying in Independence so I drove past Grain Valley every day. I was thinking about stopping and trying to find you a few times but I got the impression from your web site that you were internet and shows only at that time.


We moved in July 2004. Our warehouse is always open to customers and I always have a machine ready for a demonstration.

[Matt Meiser]

We moved in July 2004. Our warehouse is always open to customers and I always have a machine ready for a demonstration.

Bummer. I should have contacted you then. There were a few times where I was done in Concordia at noon, but couldn't get a flight back to Detroit until the next day.

[Matt Meiser]

Amazon doesn't sow any seeds, they just harvest.

Fair enough.


I have a contract with TORMEK to handle their parts distrubution, warranty work, and customer service.

I think that's what gave me the impression when I first started looking that you were one.

[Ken Garlock]

Price fixing means that a distributor is cut off if they discount prices below acceptable levels. That has nothing to do with what TORMEK has done. If I close my storefront in Springfield and stop doing shows for TORMEK, relying completely on internet sales, I would be cut off, too.

Geez, you guys are a cynical bunch.

Do you really like dealing with clueless order takers?

Well Jeff, my last comments on the subject are:

1) Regardless of where in the supply chain it happens, if I can only buy an item at an MSRP, it is price fixing, Plan and Simple.

2) If the product is a quality product, I don't care who the order taker is. I don't expect to need to use customer service because the documentation is complete with understandable examples. If that means including videos, so be it. In addition, I don't expect to have to buy another MSRP worth of speciality fixtures to be sure I have all my needs needs covered. Finally, if the tool is so complex that I need hands on training, it is too complex from the get-go.

3) Lets face it, Tormek is simply over priced.

[Keith Outten]

In the short run it seems that Tormek will lose a lot of sales dumping Amazon. It does seem obvious that Tormek is trying to protect their core businesses who demonstrate and support their equipment which in the long run is best for all parties, except those who are bargain hunting.

It is true that a very large number of people will go to retail stores, view the demonstrations then run home to order via the Internet. This same thing happened in my area at Woodworking Shows and when sales dropped the Woodworking Shows stopped. We haven't had a woodworking show in Eastern Virginia in over three years. The vendors spend a lot of time and money to show their products and lose the majority of sales to the Internet. If they can't sell their prducts in a particular area they stop coming. We lost the ability to compare equipment and ask questions. Our shopping choices are now based on pictures and catalogs and of course online forums for questions.

The competition between cheap price and best value is a tough game, sadly cheap prices almost always win and this is exactly why Walmart is so successfull and all of the local hardware stores are just a memory. I sure miss the days when I could talk to a knowledgeable salesman at the hardware store and get good advice and I always felt it was well worth the extra price for the service. I don't have that choice at Walmart or Amazon :(

Tormek is making a gutsy move, going against the grain if you will. Although I don't own their sharpening system everyone I know that has purchased from them has been very satisfied with the quality and performance of their product. Personally I hope their marketing strategy is successfull and I believe they should be able to control prices of their products.

.

[Allen Bookout]

"3) Lets face it, Tormek is simply over priced."

Well it was certainly more that I wanted to pay but given the options out there I bought it. So in my case I guess, in reality, it was not overpriced for me. I was glad to see, when it arrived, that it was a quality tool and did what I wanted it to do. In the end the total sales versus the expected sales will really be the true indicator as to whether it is really overpriced or not. I am thankful that I worked for someone else as I see how tough the business world really is. Allen

P.S. Keith is right, cheap usually wins. And then people gripe about the quality of their product. I have had some of those.

[Jeff Farris]

Ken, I realize I can never change your mind, but this is a public forum, and I think both sides need a full examination.


Well Jeff, my last comments on the subject are:

1) Regardless of where in the supply chain it happens, if I can only buy an item at an MSRP, it is price fixing, Plan and Simple.

This isn't about price. There is no agreement among the remaining TORMEK dealers or between the dealers and TORMEK as to pricing. As I stated in the original post, this decision by TORMEK is about having a distribution channel that insures customer satisfaction and dealer viability. See Steve Rowe's post for a precisely on point explanation.


2) If the product is a quality product, I don't care who the order taker is. I don't expect to need to use customer service because the documentation is complete with understandable examples. If that means including videos, so be it. In addition, I don't expect to have to buy another MSRP worth of speciality fixtures to be sure I have all my needs needs covered. Finally, if the tool is so complex that I need hands on training, it is too complex from the get-go.

Boy, you used the word "I" a lot in that paragraph. Did you ever think that there might be others less confident than you? And, you don't have to buy any specialty fixtures whatsoever for the TORMEK to be the best sharpening system on the market. They just make it better.


3) Lets face it, Tormek is simply over priced.

It's only expensive if you buy it and don't use it.

[Frank Pellow]

...

The competition between cheap price and best value is a tough game, sadly cheap prices almost always win and this is exactly why Walmart is so successfull and all of the local hardware stores are just a memory. I sure miss the days when I could talk to a knowledgeable salesman at the hardware store and get good advice and I always felt it was well worth the extra price for the service. I don't have that choice at Walmart or Amazon :(

Tormek is making a gutsy move, going against the grain if you will. Although I don't own their sharpening system everyone I know that has purchased from them has been very satisfied with the quality and performance of their product. Personally I hope their marketing strategy is successfull and I believe they should be able to control prices of their products.

I completely agree with you on this Keith.

[John Weber]

Tormek and every other manufacturer has every right to determine the manner in which its product is marketed and sold. Their dealer network also has the responsibility to abide by those contract terms. If not, terminate their Tormek dealership.

The reality is that the Tormek system (and many others) do not sell themselves. They must be demonstrated to potential buyers or it would just be looked at as if were just another bench grinder. This pulls it out of the realm of being a commodity and thus has different factors driving its success (or failure) other than price.

Consider this possibility. Allowing this to continue could result in non-Amazon dealers getting fed up demonstrating the Tormek product to potential buyers and these buyers then purchase from Amazon because the price is lower. Mind you, Amazon bore no expense to demonstrate the product on whose sale they profitted therefore, you should expect the price to be lower. This continues and eventually, the non-Amazon dealers terminate their relationships with Tormek. And now; no one demonstrates the product and the only place to buy is Amazon. Sales plummet because no one demonstrates, markets, and actually sells the product and Tormek goes out of business. So yes, it is about money, dealer support, and customer support, but with far more reaching impacts than the average consumer (who always wants the lowest price) might think of. I, for one, look at the value of the item purchased and that is why I also purchased from SharpTools USA.

+1 Nice Points

Jeff, it no wonder believe buy from you you debate the issue as a professional and clearly state the facts.

Good for Tormek, I think it's about time companies stand up to Wal-Mart Amazon (although I'm an affilate), etc... Many quality companies limit or do not allow internet sales. The big names (Trek, Cannondale, Specialized, Giant) in the bike industry don't allow internet sales, because there is more to buying a bike then a click of a mouse.

I don't know why people (including woodworkers) are so afaid that a company might make a little money - heaven forbid. The Tormek machine is well designed, well built, and the company has excellent customer service. Yes, $400 is a lot of money, but we all spend money however we want, and I'm sure I've spent a lot more on plenty of stuff I've benefited from much less.

John

P.S. Jeff, see you in Columbus on Sunday...

[Matt Meiser]

It's only expensive if you buy it and don't use it.

No, it was still expensive, but worth it IMHO.

[Bill Lewis]

Jeff,
As this thread began to develope, I began to wonder why you were taking such an issue in support of Tormek's decision. I didn't think to check your tagline though it was not enough to let us all in on the fact that you are a Tormek Dealer. Also you are brand new to this forum, so you haven't really established yourself. It might have been prudent to announce in your inital post your dealer affiliation with Tormek.

That being said, welcome to the Creek, and are you prepared to be the goto guy for Tormek questions?

What I read initally sounded like you were trying to buy one from Amazon and you recieved correspondence that you were relaying to us on an informational basis.

BTW, any idea when the Amazon / Tool Crib affiliation officially come to an end? It's still showing up on the site, and I've recently recieved catalogs and flyers in the mail. I'm just curious, this is the first I've heard about it.

[Matt Meiser]

I forgot--welcome to the Creek. Also, unless someone else hasn't spoken up, I believe we have our first creeker who actually knows the secret location of and has set foot in the New Yankee Workshop.

[Erik Rudd]

Are you saying that there isn't a "minimum advertised price" MAP agreement between Tormek and their dealers? I've seen other dealers say that there is and as far as I'm concerned if you can't advertise a sale then all you have is MSRP and that looks like price fixing.

[Howard Barlow]

I bought a Tormek a few years ago. Regrettably, I sold it when I, regrettably, sold all my ww'ing tools to, regrettably, buy a bbq pit. Now, the pit is for sale (no regrets) and Tormek is on my list, again.

[Matt Meiser]

I bought a Tormek a few years ago. Regrettably, I sold it when I, regrettably, sold all my ww'ing tools to, regrettably, buy a bbq pit. Now, the pit is for sale (no regrets) and Tormek is on my list, again.

That must be one heckuva bbq pit! :confused: :confused:

[Steve Schoene]

One thing to remember is that Jeff or any of the other retailers don't really know why the relationship with Amazon was ended. Even Amazon may have only a bit more information. They only know what they are told by Tormek, who is not likely to make public its marketing strategy, or the financial implications.

Tormek is now facing US competition from Sheppach. The only people for whom that is "unfortunate" are the Tormek retailers and Tormek itself, who are under pressure to match Sheppach prices. Consumers can judge for themselves whether Sheppach quality is equal, or adequate.

I presume Tormek is trying to maintain a quality perception, so it doesn't have to cut prices to its other dealers who might shift brands if they can't continue to sell at the Tormek premium price. Certainly, if Sheppach can achieve a similar customer image for quality, Tormek will have to cut prices, not something they relish.

All that competion is good. It is how the market economy achieves efficiency. It may even require creative distruction.

[Jeff Farris]

Jeff,
...Also you are brand new to this forum, so you haven't really established yourself. It might have been prudent to announce in your inital post your dealer affiliation with Tormek.

Sorry, Bill. I was pointed to Sawmill Creek last week. Please see this thread: Gritted My Teeth... (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=270657#poststop) I sort of assumed that anyone following TORMEK discussions would have seen that thread from the end of last week.


That being said, welcome to the Creek, and are you prepared to be the goto guy for Tormek questions?

Thank you, and yes I am.


BTW, any idea when the Amazon / Tool Crib affiliation officially come to an end? It's still showing up on the site, and I've recently recieved catalogs and flyers in the mail. I'm just curious, this is the first I've heard about it.

I am reluctant to say much about this situation, because what I know is third hand. The TORMEK shipments used to all go to one warehouse in North Dakota. A few months ago, they started going to several different warehouses throughout the country with no affiliation with TCoN. You'll notice the Tool Crib logo doesn't appear on the site anymore, and hasn't for several months

[Jason Tuinstra]

Jeff, first, I don't think you wrote up an official intro yet, so welcome! I trust that your "cynic" comment won't be a lasting impression of SMC. It's a great place with a ton of great craftsmen. Speaking of which, I certainly hope you do more than sharpen chisels all day long :p :D :) If so, please understand that a certain pic quota needs to be met of projects you've built or are in the process of building.

Regarding the "theme" of this post, price was a factor for me so I went with a system provided by our friendly neighbors to the North. However, I hope that this decision works out for TORMEK which has produced a quality product. I have some real concerns about the "Wal-Mazon" issue, but that's beyond the scope of this forum.

[Jeff Farris]

There is no written pricing policy that I am aware of.

[Howard Barlow]

That must be one heckuva bbq pit! :confused: :confused:

I bought a Klose, the Tormek of bbq pits. Of course, it won't sharpen chisels, but the Tormek isn't too good on cooking briskets, either.:D

[Howard Barlow]

http://www.hkbarlow.com/hkimages/klose1.jpg

[Jack Hogoboom]

It sounds like we are getting very close to the line of civility, so maybe everyone should take it down a few notches. People are coming across as sounding a little hostile.

I first heard of the the Tormek system when I saw it demonstrated on NYW. I didn't know until last week that Jeff was the one who did the demonstration.

Unfortunately, I bought my Tormek from Amazon when someone here was kind enough to post about the $299 price a few months ago. I feel guilty about that now, but not that much.

Jeff was also nice enough to point out last week on this site that Amazon would be clearing out its remaining inventory of Tormek products and that bargains could be had on what was left. As a result of his tip, I bought the woodturning jigs for $100 less than Jeff sells them on his site. I didn't feel as badly about that one since Jeff was the one who pointed it out.

I had not heard of his website until last week. Since then, I have been on his site several times and watched all of his demonstration clips. Very worthwhile for someone like me who is trying to learn the system. Since he has been so helpful and his site is so full of useful information and since I never would've heard about Tormek if it weren't for his appearance with Norm, I bought a few things from his site, including his DVD.

Now that I know who he is and what he does, I would never buy a Tormek product from anyone else, even if the price was better. That's just me.

There are plenty of situations where I am very price oriented. I use web based shopping bots all the time. But when I come across someone like Jeff who is "going the extra mile", I get very loyal and very price insensitive.

Think about it this way: if Amazon starts selling Festool products through Amazon, would any of us really stop dealing with Uncle Bob? Not me, not by a long-shot.

In short, I don't really care why Tormek and Amazon are parting ways. What matters to me is that Jeff is a major resource and a welcome addition to the Creek. Now that we have his attention, we shouldn't let him go and shouldn't be abusing him for a decision with which he had nothing to do.

Welcome to the Creek Jeff!! I just hope I can learn to sharpen half as well as you do. If I can, the Tormek will have been worth every penny. I'll just be losing another excuse for turning out sub-par work.:rolleyes:

Just my $0.02.

Jack

[Greg Mann]

Think about it this way: if Amazon starts selling Festool products through Amazon, would any of us really stop dealing with Uncle Bob? Not me, not by a long-shot.
Jack

Jack,

Good point, and there wouldn't be any reason to. With Festool's pricing policies, Amazon could not offer any discounts. But that ain't price fixing. It is only price fixing when several (or all) companies get together and agree on pricing that would stifle competition.

Perhaps the Sheppach will create competition and Tormek will need to respond. Time will tell. As long as no one is violating patent rights then everything will be working the way it is supposed to work. My guess is some of us might value the service and support more than others and continue to buy the Tormek. If Sheppach starts to provide more service and support their cost will go up. There are three legs to this stool that cannot be ignored: value, price, profit.

[John A. Williams]

I too learned about the Tormeck from NYW with Jeff demonstrating. Anyone that can educate Norm, who has educated so many is OK in my book, welcome to the Creek Jeff. That said, I wish I had got in on that Amaozon sale. A hundred dollars is a hundred dollars. Jeff does SharpTools USA ever have a sale? Let me know when will ya? Also what percentage of your sales are internet vs. retail store vs. store?

[Matt Warfield]

I'd like to add that it's about money as well. Being a manager of a support department, I realize that customer support is my primary focus and I'm rarely concerned with the dollars. However, I'm also very well aware that customer support is the cornerstone of our business model. Without it, we simply wouldn't be in business any more. Compared with the other companies in our industry(comparable to Wal-Mart and Amazon), our company shines through even for the simplest of questions. These are the things that distinguish you from the competition.

In regards to the timing with the release of the Tiger 2000, I'd disagree that that's a blunder. Tormek is clearly a best of class product and they need to ensure their value adds continue to be distinguished from their competitors. Again, this translates into dollars or more accurately profit margin. But, isn't that what business is all about?

Some of my company's competitors sell hundreds of times the product we do. However, with the added value we offer at the customer service level, we are able to match them on profits.

So to me, it's fairly simple. Work your tail off manufacturing as many widgets as you can to sell them as cheaply as possible while continually being squeezed on your price...or, make 1/10th the volume, get to know your customers, be respected for a quality product, spend R&D efforts towards improving that product instead of cutting costs, and sit around the BBQ pit enjoying conversation about a job you truly love because you're putting the best solution in front of the customer.

And I end with a question - Where did the big iron go?

Matt

[Jeff Farris]

..... Also what percentage of your sales are internet vs. retail store vs. store?

Come on, John. This is public forum. Do you really expect me to share that?
;)

The best time to buy a TORMEK is at a Woodworking Show. The next best time to buy one is when you need it.

[CPeter James]

I have looked at the Tormek many times and one thing is in common to all the times and locations, price, $399. Tthe only difference is in the "free" add ins". It may not be price fixing, but it certainly "price control" and GE got in trouble with that about 30 years ago on toasters and fry pans. If the only price a dealer can sell it for is set by the manufacturer, than it seems to me to be price fixing.

CPeter

[Dennis Peacock]

I bought a Tormek years ago....at a local Woodworking Show. I try to support locally when I can and buy the small stuff I can NOT get locally via internet sales or Uncle Bob for Festool stuff. Yes, Tormek was a lot of money, but it has MORE than paid for itsself via how quickly I got EVERY tool in my shop sharp in a single evening. I have sharpened the LOML's sewing scissors, kitchen knives and have demonstrated the Tormek at 3 different WW'ing BBQ because I'm SOLD on a Tormek and all that it can do. I have some local WW buddies that come out to my shop from time to time to "sharpen" their plane blade and chisels. They immediately reach for my Tormek.

I can't put a price on what the Tormek has done for me via instilling sharpening "confidence" for me personally and by being able to help local woodworkers quickly sharpen the items they use in their own shops.

I'd do it all again......and Tormek would be it. NEVER had a single problem with it even after what seems like, a million uses. Excellent tool/machine.

[Michael Ballent]

I have looked at the Tormek many times and one thing is in common to all the times and locations, price, $399. Tthe only difference is in the "free" add ins". It may not be price fixing, but it certainly "price control" and GE got in trouble with that about 30 years ago on toasters and fry pans. If the only price a dealer can sell it for is set by the manufacturer, than it seems to me to be price fixing.

CPeter

I completely agree... If the dealers cannot sell an item for less than a certain price then the only distinguishing thing amongst the dealers would be if I would be charged for shipping (one for Amazon) charged sales tax (Another point for Amazon) and sometimes a better price to boot. I am sure that there were dealers out there that were steamed when they found out that the Tormek was selling for 100 bucks less than they were. But considering how fast they seemed to fly out the door I would say that people believed that it was a good value. 250 bucks maybe $300 and I would consider the Tormek much more closely. Luckily there is now some more competition and they are already selling them on Amazon. If there is no price control/fixing why is it that your company and every dealer is selling the exact system for $399 (Although I believe you guys toss in a grading stone or something like that). Since Amazon is so much larger than Tormek, all Tormek to punish them was to yank the dealership. They must have figured to keep the rest of the vendors happy they had better drop Amazon.

But the whole customer service thing still seems like a crock. If you had come on here with the story that Tormek has dropped Amazon because they did not follow their pricing agreement I think that this entire thread would have been different. There a lot of critical thinkers on this forums that will slice and dice things like this quicker than you can shake a stick at.

I personally do not own a Tormek, maybe someday I will, maybe not. The whole scheme to maintain the prices stuck and not fluctuate still stinks to high heaven. My hope is that the competitor will make in-roads into Tormek's market share and then they will have to respond. Otherwise out with them and someone else will come in... Just wait until the Chinese figure out that they can knock off the Tormek and sell it for $150 and still make a hefty profit... (In case anyone was curious that was being cynical ;) )

[Vaughn McMillan]

I'd like to add that it's about money as well. Being a manager of a support department, I realize that customer support is my primary focus and I'm rarely concerned with the dollars. However, I'm also very well aware that customer support is the cornerstone of our business model. Without it, we simply wouldn't be in business any more. Compared with the other companies in our industry(comparable to Wal-Mart and Amazon), our company shines through even for the simplest of questions. These are the things that distinguish you from the competition....
I also work for a company that really focuses on customer service and support, as well as striving to build products that require neither. Our support folks go out of their way to handle customer questions and problems, even if it's not really related to our products. That level of service has won us a very loyal following of customers.

Our products are priced at the upper end of the market range for similar products, but despite that, we do orders of magnitude more volume than our nearest competitors, because in addition to the good product to start with, we back it up with excellent service and support. We are hands-down number one in our market niche, and make tens of millions of dollars yearly as the result. We're not the biggest software company around, but we all make a comfortable living.

I can understand TORMEK's reasoning behind the decision, and also understand that it's likely to lose a certain number of potential customers, but I believe in the long run it will prove to be a profitable decision for the company. (And I see no problem with a company wanting to profit.) It's apparent they are going for the quality over volume business model, and I see no reason to fault them for that. I don't believe it's a "smoke and mirrors" ploy to explain away their dropping Amazon. If foreign competition becomes a problem for them down the road, TORMEK can respond however it feels will best benefit the company.

And as someone mentioned, I think some folks might consider not ragging on Jeff about a decision he was not involved in making. He's obviously only the messenger here, and despite flatly stating that he knows of no pricing rules dictated by TORMEK to its dealers, to accuse him and his fellow TORMEK dealers of price fixing seems pretty un-Creeker-like to me.

And with that, welcome to the Creek, Jeff. Having been in your shoes before (representing a company on online forums, yet remaining as non-commercial as possible), I recognize it can be touchy at times. I applaud you and your openness, and look forward to learning more about sharpening by having you hang around SMC. First impressions aside, I think you'll like the place.

Just my $0.02 -

- Vaughn

[Glenn Clabo]

Jeff,
First of all welcome to SMC. It's great to have someone like you willing to be here to answer questions and keep us informed on new issues.

Second...I doubt that you were ready for the response...but I knew there would be a reaction to your post to simply inform us of the TORMEK policy change. In fact having been on SMC since the start I could pretty much predict a religious fervor by some over how companies continue to screw us.

I feel the need to confess that I bought the tool on Amazon when they were clearing out thier inventory. I was in the market...thinking I'd buy one after Christmas...but couldn't pass up the "deal". I didn't know about you or about the Tormek policy change. If I did I would have waited and supported someone like you. I'm a firm believor in supporting those who support me. In my particular decision process, if support comes direct from the company...everything else being equal...I go for price. If there is a company like yours who is there for the duration...I'll pay more.

I hope this doesn't cause you to back off your desire to help those who feel that the Tormek is not simply over priced, is a well designed/manufactured tool, with a company that appears to be attempting to at least slow down the idea that cheaper is better.

[Brent Smith]

As a retailer (not woodworking related) I'm glad to see, for whatever reason, a company that has decided to distibute their product only through retailers who take the time and and absorb the expense of properly educating the consumer to it's use. A couple of years ago a major supplier of mine decided to go the opposite direction. After years of a written commitment to supply only the speciality store trade they decided to expand into the box stores. This move hurt alot of small speciality stores that had spent the last 40 years promoting and bringing their line to the forefront of the industry.

So what happens.....people come into the store with questions or problems concerning this companies product. After spending time with the customer he (or she) tells you they are or have bought the product at a box store but no one there has the knowlege to help. Or, they come to you for parts, because parts and service are unavailable in box stores, and complain about the price.

This company has lost most of it's grass roots support now. They are now faced with the choice of lowering quality to meet the pricing demands of the box stores or trying to get back in the good graces with retailers like myself. The problem for them is that much of their merchandise has been replaced on the shelves by companies that believe in the power of customer service. They now have to re-establish themselves in a market where they once were omnipotent.

I think, regardless of the reason,
Tormek has made a good move in what they've done. They will probably take a hit in the short run, but, will be there for the end of the race.

BTW, I have a Tormek and love it. Overpriced...yes, but quality sells for what it sells for.

Brent

[David LaRue]

/ rant on
No Tormek for me in my future. This seals the deal for me. Other MFR have tried these tactics before too. I'm not supportive of them.

Obviously Tormek has difficulty satisfying existing commitments to the end customers who in good faith ordered from a official distributer (at the time of the order) :mad: That makes me believe that they have more loyalty to a a few other 'key' distributors over the end customer. The channel of distribution i.e. the Internet must intimidate Tomek. And well it should. "Live by the Sword, die by the Sword" ..

/ rant off

[tod evans]

i just read this thread and must say i`m behind tormek and jeff on this one. it`s my opinion that customer service is business as much as manufacturing. most of us have watched as the middle of the road stationary tools are no longer produced now we are left with only two choices the true industrial tool designers and manufacturers or the taiwan/china clones, each at oppisite ends of the spectrum. what saddens me is that i sit here and read posts supporting blatent plagerism of anothers idea all to "save a buck" or "make a buck" as the case may be....i`m sure there are those who are chomping at the bit for the release of the 49.95 tormek clone that`s inevitable...i sincerely hope that everyone who supports these business practices with their "price is paramount attitude" is on the recieving end of this "global economy" we are heading toward.... i for one will not contribute to having my family living in an overcrowded city eating fish heads and rice......02 tod

[Matt Warfield]

/ rant on
No Tormek for me in my future. This seals the deal for me. Other MFR have tried these tactics before too. I'm not supportive of them.

Obviously Tormek has difficulty satisfying existing commitments to the end customers who in good faith ordered from a official distributer (at the time of the order) :mad: That makes me believe that they have more loyalty to a a few other 'key' distributors over the end customer. The channel of distribution i.e. the Internet must intimidate Tomek. And well it should. "Live by the Sword, die by the Sword" ..

/ rant off

David,

I'm going a bit off topic here but I do find this humorous. To the traditional retailer, the internet has a very strong correlation to cheap labor. If this very fine country didn't have immigration laws, your employer would frequently be faced with high-skilled workers willing to work for half of what you do. Imagine being called into your bosses office and being told that you need to work just as hard for 60 cents on the dollar. I'm going to guess that wouldn't settle well with you would it? Then say you did that because you knew the high-skilled workers were like ants on a popsicle stick and you'd be out the door otherwise. Would you continue to perform at the same level as before and would your quality of work be the same? And how would your morale implode in six months when you're asked to take another pay cut and work more hours?

In essence, this is the very situation the big box stores are creating for manufacturers. I've watch several businesses in our area and others fold due to these retail pressures...Rubbermaid is one of the more recognizable ones. Sure, consumers get a quality product for a few years until that company goes belly up because quality simply isn't cheap.

And I applaud Tormek for recognizing the demise of others who have fallen into the big box trap. The wisdom of their executive team is quite evident.

Please don't take this as a personal attack as I'm only trying to show the other side of the coin. It's very easy to go on a rant when it's a company but try to sit down and talk with the people making the decision. You'll most likely find Tormek to be a company full of real people who would prefer their manufacturing facility not be shipped of to a place where the highly-skilled workers will work for 2 cents on the dollar. Love thy neighbor man as he'll be the one with the shovel at the end of your years.

Matt

[Gregg Mason]

Tormek sounds like a stand-up company, making a high quality product and standing behind it.

What's not to like about that ?


Thanks for sharing the info.

Welcome to the Creek Jeff. Sink or swim ;)

[Matt Meiser]

What I find ironic is that only a few years ago when Amazon was relatively small and struggling, they were being applauded. Now that they are huge, they are the evil empire. Many of the companies that everyone says are ruining the world started out as the very thing they are accused of destroying. So now the biggest retailer of the Tormek is Woodcraft. Does that convert them to evil status?

In my posts, I'm not debating whether or not Tormek has the right to do this. They absolutely do. I just think that in today's business climate they would have been a lot better off to just state that they were choosing not to do business with Amazon because they wanted to concentrate on dealers that had the ability to demonstrate the product and leave it at that--no further discussion. Now that I re-read the opening post, that's actually what Jeff posted. It was only later that he said they were going to lose money from the deal.

I believe it to be fact that this move will increase prices to the consumer. Since I doubt Woodcraft, Rockler, or Jeff will sell the machine for $299, that will happen. As soon as I hear a company say that they are going to increase prices for my own good, I get a bad taste in my mouth. Businesses rarely make decisions that aren't for their own good first, and rightly so in many cases.

I actually like this debate and apologize if I came across as attacking you Jeff.

[Byron Trantham]

Gee guys, what's the problem? It's Torme k's business decision. You can work with them or not. As with any purchase; is it (the product) worth it to YOU? I didn't just go out and buy the Tormek on a whim; too expensive for that. Did the research and after deciding it was the tool for me, I waited to find the best deal. Amazon turned out to be the best source. I wasn't looking for support; that's what The Creek is for!:D I ended up spending $585 for the machine and jigs. Then I told everyone I knew I could sharpen knives, scissors, planes and chisels. I charged $5 an item. I keep track of the "income". I have recovered about $220 so far in nine months AND gained a lot of free experience. Tormek is one of the few tools we will buy where you can do something like this. Any business is going to make decisions to keep THEM in business. As a customer you get to vote with your wallet as to whether or not they made the right decision. Would I buy the Tormek now that it is no longer available through Amazon; YES. I would just have to sharpen more knives to offset the cost!:D

[Matt Warfield]

What I find ironic is that only a few years ago when Amazon was relatively small and struggling, they were being applauded. Now that they are huge, they are the evil empire. Many of the companies that everyone says are ruining the world started out as the very thing they are accused of destroying. So now the biggest retailer of the Tormek is Woodcraft. Does that convert them to evil status?

In my posts, I'm not debating whether or not Tormek has the right to do this. They absolutely do. I just think that in today's business climate they would have been a lot better off to just state that they were choosing not to do business with Amazon because they wanted to concentrate on dealers that had the ability to demonstrate the product and leave it at that--no further discussion. Now that I re-read the opening post, that's actually what Jeff posted. It was only later that he said they were going to lose money from the deal.

I believe it to be fact that this move will increase prices to the consumer. Since I doubt Woodcraft, Rockler, or Jeff will sell the machine for $299, that will happen. As soon as I hear a company say that they are going to increase prices for my own good, I get a bad taste in my mouth. Businesses rarely make decisions that aren't for their own good first, and rightly so in many cases.

I actually like this debate and apologize if I came across as attacking you Jeff.

It certainly is a fine line between the evil empire and the good guy. For my two cents, the difference is when the retailer start telling the manufacturer what they have to sell it for rather than letting the market(consumers) set the price. At this point, the big box stores/etailers have a negative impact on our lives as a whole. Yeah, sure you can get it cheaper. But to think your economics are so loosely tied to the rest of the world is simply short-sighted. Our increased imports from China have certainly caused an increase in industrialization there and an increase in fossil fuels. We're certainly paying the price at the pump. Next time your tired of paying over $2.00/gallon, just remember that cheap knock-off and see if you fee better about gas prices. :D

Matt

[David LaRue]

I'm not sure how my comments relate to international economics. I simply stated that Tormek seems less interested in the end consumer than they should be. They should make good on their commitments to supply Amazon for existing orders. At least to me .. .02

[Michael Gibbons]

After seeing Jeff on the NYW , I saved and purchased a Tormek from Woodcraft not knowing Jeff was a distributor. When I did purchae it, the prices were all within a couple dollars up-or-down from one dealer or the other. It seems that what one dealer will do the others will do in order not to lose a sale , hence the same price across the board. Could also be price fixing from the company,who knows.


I think Amazon is a great outfit and will continue shopping ther even if they stop selling tools altogether.


As far as price goes, If you want a Ferrari, you pay the price. If you want a replica with a Chevy engine....

[Bill Simmeth]

Jeff, welcome to the Creeek -- sorry it was such a bumpy entry! I thank you for the great service you and your company has given me over the last couple of years.

As for Tormek's decision, it shows that someone with business acumen is running the place. It's a very smart move and I applaud it. Anyone who has studied business strategy realizes that once a market is subject to severe price competition, there's only two viable market strategies: be the low cost producer or stake out the high ground and ratchet up the perceived value of your product. That's exactly what Tormek is doing and they're following in the footsteps of world-class companies who have done the same with success, such as Stihl and Festool.

Tormek is making the move at the right time. They already have the high end staked out and now need to cement that position. The cloning of Tormek's product has obviously begun thanks to Scheppach. No doubt a Far East entry is not far off (I can picture Shiraz drooling all over this thread!). What's ironic is that when that happens, Scheppach will be precisely where you don't want to be -- in the middle of the market.

The people t-ed off by Tormek's decision (as reflected in this thread) aren't Tormek's target consumer now anyway. So rant on -- it makes no difference. (Just don't drag Jeff through it.)

[Bill Simmeth]

What I find ironic is that only a few years ago when Amazon was relatively small and struggling, they were being applauded. Now that they are huge, they are the evil empire.When they started selling tools, Amazon was, in reality, Tool Crib. You could call and talk to knowledgeable folks who knew the products. Amazon has severed that tie. Have you tried to talk to one of their tool associates lately? Good luck. It's now just about shoving as much hardware down the pipeline as possible. Want service, go somewhere else.


So now the biggest retailer of the Tormek is Woodcraft. Does that convert them to evil status?No, not in my book. They work hard supporting their store network and invest heavily in hiring/training tool-knowledgeable employees. Huge difference between them and Amazon. Same for Hartville.


I believe it to be fact that this move will increase prices to the consumer. Since I doubt Woodcraft, Rockler, or Jeff will sell the machine for $299, that will happen. As soon as I hear a company say that they are going to increase prices for my own good, I get a bad taste in my mouth. Businesses rarely make decisions that aren't for their own good first, and rightly so in many cases.Since you already own a Tormek I should think you'd view this as a good thing. They have adopted a business strategy to survive in an increasingly competitive market segment. That should ensure you will be able to purchase Tormek accessories for some time to come.

[tod evans]

Jeff, welcome to the Creeek -- sorry it was such a bumpy entry! I thank you for the great service you and your company has given me over the last couple of years.

As for Tormek's decision, it shows that someone with business acumen is running the place. It's a very smart move and I applaud it. Anyone who has studied business strategy realizes that once a market is subject to severe price competition, there's only two viable market strategies: be the low cost producer or stake out the high ground and ratchet up the perceived value of your product. That's exactly what Tormek is doing and they're following in the footsteps of world-class companies who have done the same with success, such as Stihl and Festool.

Tormek is making the move at the right time. They already have the high end staked out and now need to cement that position. The cloning of Tormek's product has obviously begun thanks to Scheppach. No doubt a Far East entry is not far off (I can picture Shiraz drooling all over this thread!). What's ironic is that when that happens, Scheppach will be precisely where you don't want to be -- in the middle of the market.

The people t-ed off by Tormek's decision (as reflected in this thread) aren't Tormek's target consumer now anyway. So rant on -- it makes no difference. (Just don't drag Jeff through it.)

bill, you`re quite a bit more articulate than i, and much closer to being politically correct..........but right on! i think we`re on the same page on this one. tod

[CPeter James]

My only complaint is that the price is ALWAYS $399. Even Bessey clamps go on sale one in a while. I don't want to steal a Tormek at $159, but just a little discount, maybe once a year would be nice.

CPeter

[Bill Simmeth]

bill, you`re quite a bit more articulate than i, and much closer to being politically correct...LOL! I've been struggling with that PC disease for years. I'm working on it tho. But, I still have nagging images of Ma in the background going, "If you don't have something nice to say..." ;)

[John A. Williams]

Sorry Jeff, I guess those questions were out of line. I see now that is something you could not answer here on a public forum. But, I agree with CPeters complaint, it is always $399. I would like to see a sale also.
John

[tod evans]

cpeter and john, i own a small retail tool operation and feel i`m safe in saying that the profit on a tool in this price bracket is less than 15% or 60 bucks gross. now folks like jeff here travel to shows, put on demonstrations, keep up a web site and try to put beans on the table....let`s ask for a better deal??

[Jim DeLaney]

I bought a Tormek years ago....I can't put a price on what the Tormek has done for me via instilling sharpening "confidence" for me personally and by being able to help local woodworkers quickly sharpen the items they use in their own shops.

I'd do it all again......and Tormek would be it. NEVER had a single problem with it even after what seems like, a million uses. Excellent tool/machine.


Well said, Dennis. I feel the same way about the Tormek that I've had for about five years now. Mine gets used very often, and the only 'problem' I've had with it has been wearing out the plastic/nylon bushings on the jig. I called SharpToolsUSA, and Jeff immediately sent me a new set of them - gratis. Great customer service, eh?

I've talked to both Jeff and Nancy over the years, at various shows, and have found them both to be friendly, knowledgeable, and very dedicated to their produce and their customers. What more can I say?

If my Tormek died tomorrow, I'd buy another, and I'd buy it from Jeff.

[Matt Warfield]

I'm not sure how my comments relate to international economics. I simply stated that Tormek seems less interested in the end consumer than they should be. They should make good on their commitments to supply Amazon for existing orders. At least to me .. .02

I can understand that as well. But without knowing the details it's difficult to point a finger. Amazon may have demanded a lower price on the product to fill your order which would make Amazon the one who scr**ed the pooch. If it's worth going on a rant, it's probably worth calling Tormek for some additional information. After all, you do like the product. :)

[Brad Olson]

J

Tormek is making the move at the right time. They already have the high end staked out and now need to cement that position. The cloning of Tormek's product has obviously begun thanks to Scheppach. No doubt a Far East entry is not far off (I can picture Shiraz drooling all over this thread!). What's ironic is that when that happens, Scheppach will be precisely where you don't want to be -- in the middle of the market.


I tend to disagree with everyone thinking tormek is a customer oriented company.

Scheppach has been around for a long time in Europe. The reason they exist is that European dealers were tired of Tormek price fixing and limiting distribution and other tactics. So instead of putting up with the BS, they designed their own unit.

Another well respected dealer in America too has to be very careful about discounting the Tormek, otherwise he gets a nasty calls from the Tormek people, because all of the dealers complain about being undercut.

I'll probably never buy one, not because it isn't useful or the tormek people are evil, but because it simply does not put a sharp enough edge on chisels and plane blades and isn't really any faster than a honing guide and a set of stones. Also hollow ground planer and jointer knives don't last as long in my experience, so this feature isn't all that useful or cost effective. I suppose if I sharpened kitchen knives or scissors all day it would have some use.

[Jeff Farris]

<snip>
Scheppach has been around for a long time in Europe. The reason they exist is that European dealers were tired of Tormek price fixing and limiting distribution and other tactics. So instead of putting up with the BS, they designed their own unit.<snip>

Can we all agree that this somewhat heated debate should remain firmly grounded in facts, and that when opinion is stated, it should be referenced as such? Brad, you are completely off base with your assessment (or what you have been told) of the genesis of the Scheppach Tiger 2000. TORMEK and I have agreed that we are not going to sling mud at Scheppach. An objective comparison of the two machines is all that is necessary if a customer is deciding which to buy. As far as how their relationship dissolved several years ago, it is nobody's business but Scheppach's and TORMEK's. You, however, would be surprised by the facts.

[Allen Bookout]

Well Jeff, I bet that you never sell me anything again unless I agree not to post anything about it on any forum.

Thanks for the good service!

Allen

[Dev Emch]

....

As for Tormek's decision, it shows that someone with business acumen is running the place. It's a very smart move and I applaud it. Anyone who has studied business strategy realizes that once a market is subject to severe price competition, there's only two viable market strategies: be the low cost producer or stake out the high ground and ratchet up the perceived value of your product. That's exactly what Tormek is doing and they're following in the footsteps of world-class companies who have done the same with success, such as Stihl and Festool.

Tormek is making the move at the right time. They already have the high end staked out and now need to cement that position. The cloning of Tormek's product has obviously begun thanks to Scheppach. No doubt a Far East entry is not far off (I can picture Shiraz drooling all over this thread!). What's ironic is that when that happens, Scheppach will be precisely where you don't want to be -- in the middle of the market.

The people t-ed off by Tormek's decision (as reflected in this thread) aren't Tormek's target consumer now anyway. So rant on -- it makes no difference. (Just don't drag Jeff through it.)

Amen Bra!

[Jim DeLaney]

Along similar lines... Penofin, the wood finishes manufacturer has recently announced that they are cutting their ties with Home Depot and Lowes. They claim that in order to continue making product in the manner (and no doubt, price) that the Borgs want, they'd have to move their manufacturing off shore. They refuse to do that, they say, in the interest of maintaining a 100% U.S. manufacturing (and employing) venture.

Personally, just like in Tormek's case (although Tormek is not U.S. made) I applaud their decision, and wish them the best of success in their ventures. More manufacturers need to buck the Wal/Borg/WWW trend, and then stand their ground.

[tod evans]

Along similar lines... Penofin, the wood finishes manufacturer has recently announced that they are cutting their ties with Home Depot and Lowes. They claim that in order to continue making product in the manner (and no doubt, price) that the Borgs want, they'd have to move their manufacturing off shore. They refuse to do that, they say, in the interest of maintaining a 100% U.S. manufacturing (and employing) venture.

Personally, just like in Tormek's case (although Tormek is not U.S. made) I applaud their decision, and wish them the best of success in their ventures. More manufacturers need to buck the Wal/Borg/WWW trend, and then stand their ground.

jim, i`ve never tried their product but knowing what you just shared i will certainly look at it now! thanks, tod

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I guess I wasn't paying attention. When did making a profit and protecting your brand and market become a bad thing?

[Jack Hogoboom]

This thread is really amazing. In the 2 years I've been a member, I don't remember ever seeing a thread like this. Positions flying left and right. Lots of emotion. Over a sharpener....:rolleyes:

Some helpful advice:

-- Jeff, you should definitely get off this topic and post something somewhere else on the forum about sharpening. Maybe now that you're on with us, we can start a sharpening forum and get the benefit of your expertise. Participating in the forums has been good for business, just ask Uncle Bob.

-- For people who are confused about manufacturer/dealer relationships: here's the only piece of free legal advice you'll ever get out of me. Without question, a manufacturer has the unencumbered right to dictate the prices at which the dealer can sell its products. If the dealer violates a minimum pricing policy, the dealer can be terminated. It isn't "price fixing" unless two or more entities at the same level (i.e. different manufacturers) collude on price. If you think Tormek is bad, try buying an IPod at any price other than what Apple dictates. It's called market power. A manufacturer isn't going to discount its products if it doesn't have to. If someone ever tops the IPod, Apple will be knocking the price down pretty quickly. Same with Tormek.

-- As for Amazon, it has its place, but is no "evil empire". If you use any of the shopping bots out there, you will see immediately that Amazon is NOT the low price seller of products. I have saved many hundreds of dollars finding something on Amazon and then buying it someplace else. I use Amazon primarily for the search engine and the customer reviews. Around Xmas they are always the most reliable merchant to buy from if you need to make sure a package comes on time. But make no mistake, Amazon is not Wal-Mart. They aren't about to put anyone out of business. Who knows why Tormek and Amazon parted ways. Maybe Amazon wanted Tormek to drop the price it charges Amazon so Amazon could reap a bigger margin. Having shopped for a Tormek for over a year, I can tell you from personal experience that Amazon never dropped its price until it went into liquidation mode.

-- I'd love to see Grizzly or someone come out with their own sharpening system. What we need is competition from other manufacturers to bring prices down. If Tormek has a patent on its product, it'll run out eventually and then you'll be able to get the same product elsewhere for $100. It'll happen eventually.

-- In the meantime, it seems like we're expending a lot of energy on something that isn't terribly important. I for one would prefer to waste my energy trying to make something....:eek: Once again, welcome Jeff. We're actually a lot more fun than we seem to be.

Jack

[Cecil Arnold]

Gosh Jack, I love it when you talk that lawyer talk "unencumbered right" and such.:) ;) ;) Seriously, thanks for the legal insight, maybe that will cool things down.

[Howard Barlow]

I tend to disagree with everyone thinking tormek is a customer oriented company.

Scheppach has been around for a long time in Europe. The reason they exist is that European dealers were tired of Tormek price fixing and limiting distribution and other tactics. So instead of putting up with the BS, they designed their own unit.

Another well respected dealer in America too has to be very careful about discounting the Tormek, otherwise he gets a nasty calls from the Tormek people, because all of the dealers complain about being undercut.

I'll probably never buy one, not because it isn't useful or the tormek people are evil, but because it simply does not put a sharp enough edge on chisels and plane blades and isn't really any faster than a honing guide and a set of stones. Also hollow ground planer and jointer knives don't last as long in my experience, so this feature isn't all that useful or cost effective. I suppose if I sharpened kitchen knives or scissors all day it would have some use.

Are you saying Scheppach puts their unit on sale at discounted prices?

[Allen Bookout]

[quote=Jack Hogoboom]
-- I'd love to see Grizzly or someone come out with their own sharpening system. What we need is competition from other manufacturers to bring prices down. If Tormek has a patent on its product, it'll run out eventually and then you'll be able to get the same product elsewhere for $100. It'll happen eventually.

Jack, I think that $100 might be a LITTLE low. The grindstone alone sells for $129.95. It is large and very heavy duty. I would think that it would take the majority of a one hundred dollar bill to manufacture and ship it. Do any of you people in manufacturing have any real valid estimates on the production cost of the stone itself?

Allen

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jeff.......Welcome to the Creek!

Tormek will sell for whatever the market will bear.............

[Carl Crout]

Are you saying Scheppach puts their unit on sale at discounted prices?

I bought my Scheppach on sale for $249 at Hartville Tool.............

Their regular price is $299

according to hartville the blue oxide wheel on the Scheppach is better suited to sharpening HSS tools..

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Jack, apparently you don't read the "dead wood" threads!;)

[Howard Barlow]

I bought my Scheppach on sale for $249 at Hartville Tool.............

Their regular price is $299

according to hartville the blue oxide wheel on the Scheppach is better suited to sharpening HSS tools..

Thanks, Carl.

[Jerry White]

I saw this thread begin and did not come back to it for a few days. I'm amazed at some of the rather hostile comments toward TORMEK and Jeff!

I bought a TORMEK from Jeff several years ago. To the best of my memory, I had shopped around for a the best price and all sellers were very close in their prices, including Amazon. Then I found Jeff and Sharptools USA. Jeff was about the same price as others, but he brought added value...he was very knowledgeable about the product and he threw in a couple of accessories. The TORMEK unit itself in addition to being of quality is packaged with an outstanding manual and a video, both comparable to those packaged with the Leigh Jig (another product that is not cheap).

TORMEK has obviously adopted a plan that they think will maintain their survival for the long term, as they have every right to do. They probably would make more profit short term by moving as many units at a discount for as long as the sales volume will hold. They could replace the nice manual and the video with a pamphlet and cheapen the quality of the unit, also eliminate parts support and get the price even cheaper. In the end this short term plan likely would take them down the same path as many former market leaders that are no longer around.

I owned a retail business in a very competitive field for several years. I was constantly surprised at how much of the general public imagined the profit margin that was built into selling price. Many of my customers thought that surely all businesses had 100 percent markup in their sales, while it actually was less than 10 percent (gross, not net) on big ticket items. After my overhead and customer support, that percentage profit simply was not enough to stay in business. I don't have any idea what the markup is for TORMEK dealers, but folks, please be carefull about making assumptions.

Jeff, welcome to Sawmill Creek. I hope you will come back regularly. You bring a lot to our community.

[Rich Sopel]

Well.. I don't know about "knowledgeable sales people" . My personal experience generally has been poor when it comes to product knowledge from the "sales reps" or sales person for any particular product. Now a days it seems like the only product pushed is the one the sales person is told to sell. I always do my own research before buying anything and have given up asking any questions from the sales/rep staff. Pricing is what I look for and I go wherever I can find the best . Having bought a fair bit of merchandise from Amazon I have found their delivery dates and shipping to be excellent. More then I can say for a lot of local shop promises .:D
FWW I agree, the Tormak system is overpriced.

[Per Swenson]

Ahh Fellas,

I just typed a small novela of a rant in word for this thread,

and deleted it. Why did I do that?

It was blathering and stupid. So the short version,

The most expensive pair of shoes in the world are cheap boots.


Per

[Ian Barley]

Tormek & Scheppach have been sold side by side in the UK for some time.

Tormek is considerably the more expensive but is still the choice most people take. I suspect that this is because neither is "cheap" and if you are gonna drop Scheppach money on a sharpening system you are serious about it and if you are serious about it you want the best and is you want the best Tormek appears to be the best.

I have some sympathy with their point of view on this as well. I make a product in my business that I consider to be a quality product. I could sell three times as many if I halved the price but I would have to compromise quality to get there. I would rather not do that so some of my potenetial customers never buy because they cannot reconcile the price against their perception of worth. Thats fine with me because enough of my potential customers do buy because they can reconcile the price/quality balance.

Bottom line is that Tormek can decide completely where and at what price they sell their products.

[Mike Holbrook]

Wow, I have been to long from these pages. 7 Pages here, I read every word. I guess this is what it is all about, real people speaking their minds. It seems to me that this whole thing is not about Tormek or Jeff but about pent up frustrations with a new "world market place", and how things get bought and sold. There are good things & not so good things, it boggles the mind, or at least mine.

Personally, I miss the days when I could call most any company and get a person who wanted to help. Thinking about all the hours I have spent waiting to get someone, anyone, to talk to about whatever issue I am having causes steam to come from my ears & a rash to form on my posterior.

I called Tormek twice I think to ask questions about mine. Once I believe I got the guy! Hey I don't mind paying for that. I am going over to my Tormek & giving it a big kiss. It is a good thing Steve is not anywhere near here, I might try to chase him down & plant one on him too.

Thanks Steve for being here & there, I promise I want really chase you down but wouldn't mind shaking your hand some time. I might even spring for a beer. Thanks Creeker's what an interesting read.

Per Swenson, "there is nothing more expensive than a cheap pair of boots", sooooooooooo true!

[leon greenberg]

Sounds like Bovine Excrement to me:( Their move is tantamount to price fixing.

Thanks for having the intestinal fortitude for speaking your mind and the truth.

Scheppach has a unit ( 2 ) large and smaller that is alledged to be a reverse engineered Tormek system and it works very well and Amazon has it. Amazon also has the new Jet which in some circles is being Panned and
Lauded in others.

I believe Tormek still lives in the Fantasy of having a proprietary item. It is
no longer so. Their Hyperbole about knowledgeable sales help and dealing with a retail distibutor is totally Hyperbole BS in the Kings English.

I dont know how much space I am alloted as I am brand new to Saw Mill Creek but
not new to woodworking tools and business which I owned for 40 yrs and was involved
in manufacturing of domestic woven textiles and later in importing. I am no novice to
business. As regards wood working tools I have been involved for more than 25 years.

Festool is another Price Fixer. But wait, here comes the fire. I have attended Wooodworking Shows for many years. As a seasoned business person I observed
professional woodworkers and hobbyists at these shows and my observation tells me
that our culture needs a great deal of acute repair in many areas. I will leave it there
as it would take several pages to expound on my observations. You appear to be an
astute fellow and so I trust you already understand.

All of this Price Fixing can be cut off at the Fork if the politicians were put upon hard
to change this. What we are experiencing is regression quietly and the only way to
stop this illness is to legislate it out of existance once more permanently.

Thank you for letting me bend your eyes ( not your ears )

[Carroll Courtney]

Well me being a simple minded person,how can several business sell the product all over the country for the same price.But like alot of folks,made the decision to buy it.(Mine was second hand,could not afford new)Jigs are very expensive,but they work perfect and I like that.My skills are such that even I can put a edge on a chisel using the tormek.I love it and have no regrets.A person is buying a SawStop and spending 4500, for a table saw and others spend 700.00 on a Lamello biscuit jointer.(Cut a slot w/a PC and a Lamello and see if you can tell the difference)? I would think that if the Jet is worth a flip that Tormek will loose a slice of the pie or Jet will raise their price.Which will come first? Just MOP

[Joe Jensen]

Although I am a third party to this painstaking and arduous decision on TORMEK's part, I can assure you, it has cost TORMEK thousands of dollars, that may or may not be replaced by other distributors.

Bill Lewis: Amazon has cut their ties with Tool Crib of the North, which in part started this ball rolling.

David Abel: There are few products on the market that have better instructional material than the TORMEK. And, I say with all confidence that there is nothing in the way of sharpening equipment that is as well documented. That said, it is a complex system that has many options. Most customers need only a few options, some need none, others want them all. How is an "order taker" going to be able to help the customer work through those options? Maybe you don't need your hand held, but someone with less confidence and less experience will appreciate it.

Howard Barlow: Thanks for the vote of confidence. Your example is a perfect illustration of the direction TORMEK has decided is best for the company and their customers.

This is a "protect my retailers" move by torkek. It's not about the customers. Most retailers don't even know as much as what's in the manual. Retail stores are getting killed by Amazon and they want protection.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

There is to my knowledge nothing illegal about Tormek and their distributors setting a retail price for something and selling it for that amount. It's like buying cars or a house....what ever the market will bear. Personally I'd like to have a Tormek but I'll never pay that kind of money for it. So? It's just a economic decision I have to make.

[Robert Mickley]

Heh, I guess I don't need to buy one. Jim D has one I can just go to his house :D :D :D

[Chris Barton]

Tormek is a fine machine and the company should be able to sell it at a price that's appropriate to them making a profit. They should be able to set the price at any level and let the market decide.

However, I don't think this is about CS or price. I tend to believe this is about dilution of market share. When they were the only game in town they had no problems with Amazon sales. But, now there is competition, and it's competition that has repeatedly been found to produce similar quality outcomes but, for 1/3 less and some improvement in features. This move by Tormek is nothing more than a near end attempt to preserve a portion of the market. Something will have to change for Tormek to survive in the current environment. My feeling is that Tormek is on a much tighter break point than Jet on pricing their product. Tormek makes a sharpener and accessories. Jet makes all sorts of things and can press the margins much closer than Tormek. Let's see how long Tormek lasts...

[Michael Gibbons]

Geez everyone, Give it a rest. Like I said in a different thread on this subject, Tormek sells to distributors at a set price, so Tormek already made the profit it wanted to by the time each individual machine made it to their destination. MSRP, just like it states Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price is the price Tormek suggests that the unit be sold for, in this case,$399. Why would anyone want to lose profit by selling it for less? I'm sure if retailers lowered the price then more people would buy them but they're selling them at a higer price and folks still purches them. If Tormek is forcing you to sell the unit at that price and no lower I agree it would be price fixing. But by not doing this, it would cause unrest among all dealers and the fine folks at Tormek would have to play referee, which I don't beleive they want to do. As far as the people here at SMC that won't buy one because of price-GOOD ,DON'T!!. But you shouldn't put in an opinion unless you actually have one and used it for a while. You've heard the testimonials from people that have one and seems that everyone that has one loves it and don't know what they would do without it. Also,at one time or another folks here at SMC have asked for opinions on machines they were thinking of buying,then took the advice and went out and bought it. Why would the Tormek be any different? Give up your vices for a couple weeks, then with the money you saved ,you'll have enough to buy the real thing.

[Jim DeLaney]

Heh, I guess I don't need to buy one. Jim D has one I can just go to his house :D :D :D

Yep. Got most of the jigs for it, too. Come on by.

[Chris Barton]

But you shouldn't put in an opinion unless you actually have one and used it for a while. You've heard the testimonials from people that have one and seems that everyone that has one loves it and don't know what they would do without it. Also,at one time or another folks here at SMC have asked for opinions on machines they were thinking of buying,then took the advice and went out and bought it. Why would the Tormek be any different? Give up your vices for a couple weeks, then with the money you saved ,you'll have enough to buy the real thing.

Michael,

I've been a proud Tormek owner for 3 years...

[Michael Gibbons]

Me, about 4 1/2 years. Just love it.

[Art Davis]

Okay, here is an example. It is something that I have experienced hundreds of times over the years, and I can imagine that every Woodcraft and Rockler floor sales rep has experienced it as well. We'll make you the dealer. so you can experience it, too.

A customer comes in your store, and expresses interest in the TORMEK. You spend the better part of an hour going over the machine with him. You ignore other customers, because this guy's intensity level has convinced you that he is serious about dropping the hammer today. You ask him if he's ready to take one home, and he says to you,


"Oh, I bought it from Amazon last week. I just wanted you to show me how to use it."
As part of my agreement to represent TORMEK at The Woodworking Shows, I smile and continue helping them as best I can. But, if I was a Woodcraft store owner or manager, my reaction might be different.

Relating back to the first response in this thread, Stihl power equipment has maintained a loyal distributor base and a loyal end user base by staying out of the big boxes and away from Amazon. The dealers are happy with Stihl, the end users are happy with the dealers, and yes, Stihl knows that they could sell thousands more saws if they would drop the price and open up the lines of distribution. But how long would it last?

Well----I'm with Jeff on this one, having been guilty of doing just this. I do make it a point to attend his demos at each WW show I go to. I assume this is fair. (Aside to Jeff---just how does this differ from doing the same thing in the store?)

Art

[Wilbur Pan]

Tormek is a fine machine and the company should be able to sell it at a price that's appropriate to them making a profit. They should be able to set the price at any level and let the market decide.

However, I don't think this is about CS or price. I tend to believe this is about dilution of market share.
Not necessarily. With the introduction of the Jet clone, Tormek does not need to maintain market share to survive. They just need to remain profitable. Here are two examples to illustrate this.

1. This is a ridiculous example, but it illustrates the point. Suppose that the cost/price breakdown for Tormek was such that it cost Tormek $100 to build a Tormek machine, and that they sold it for $1,000,000. It costs Jet $50 to make their machine, and they sell it for $51. If Tormek manages to sell just one machine, and Jet sells 999,900 machines over the course of a fiscal year, both Tormek and Jet are equally profitable, even though Jet has 99.9998% of the marketshare.

2. Sales of the Jet may not necessarily cannibalize Tormek sales. Out there there is a group of woodworkers who would never think of spending more than $299 for a sharpening machine, regardless of how good it is or who makes it. Tormek will never make a sale to this group. Woodworkers in this group might by a Jet, but it will not translate into a lost sale for Tormek. So even though if these woodworkers all go out and buy a Jet machine, giving Jet more marketshare, it does not mean that Tormek will make less profit from the buying decisions of this group.

[Al Willits]

IMHO......
Find it hard to see why someone who doesn't own one shouldn't be able to post here, didn't seems like the quality was a issue, just business practice?

Couple things seem a given, its a good piece of equipment, least wises nobodies has said different, its expensive, and it does a nice job, and there are those who think the price is worth it.
They have the right to market it to who ever they want.
And at what ever price they want.

What seems to be the main point is, who they're allowing to sell it to and why.
Here is where it gets a bit vague.

Consider profit is the most important issue in most companies, I'm having some doubt as it not being considered in their decision to eliminate Amazon, as it would seem the B&M shops would find a discount outlet not to their liking.
Possibly losing the B&M stores may be a bigger loss than Amazon.

That's not to say customer service isn't a main part of the companies policy, they could still have very good service (and seem to).

Price fixing or not?
Doesn't seem to make much difference as to what ya call it, if a product is available at only one price, and that is set by the manufacture, no matter what you call it, the results to the consumer are the same.

Time will tell if eliminating Amazon will make a difference, for those who price shop, it probably will, for those who have a need for a sharpening tool of this caliber, probably not.

Personally its a bit more tool than what I need, but I could see adding it or something like it, if I ever get more than 4 chisels...:D
Does look like a nice unit.

Enjoying the topic, thanks.

Al..

[Jeff Farris]

Well----I'm with Jeff on this one, having been guilty of doing just this. I do make it a point to attend his demos at each WW show I go to. I assume this is fair. (Aside to Jeff---just how does this differ from doing the same thing in the store?)

Art

How does it differ? Well, until recently, at the shows, part of my agreement with TORMEK was that I would provide customer instruction at the show, regardless of the customer's purchase status (owner or prospect) or whether he had purchased from me (SharpToolsUSA) on another dealer. I was being compensated for the time I spent with someone who had no intention of purchasing either a machine or accessories. A store owner or employee has no such compensation. Since January 1st, Nancy and I are employees of TORMEK and will be working completely in support of local dealers, both at the shows and at their in-store events.

[Homer Faucett]

. . .
-- For people who are confused about manufacturer/dealer relationships: here's the only piece of free legal advice you'll ever get out of me. Without question, a manufacturer has the unencumbered right to dictate the prices at which the dealer can sell its products. If the dealer violates a minimum pricing policy, the dealer can be terminated. It isn't "price fixing" unless two or more entities at the same level (i.e. different manufacturers) collude on price. If you think Tormek is bad, try buying an IPod at any price other than what Apple dictates. It's called market power. A manufacturer isn't going to discount its products if it doesn't have to. If someone ever tops the IPod, Apple will be knocking the price down pretty quickly. Same with Tormek.

. . . .
Jack

Several have commented on this, and it is something we see an aweful lot in the woodworking tool industry. I'm not sure I agree with Jack's analysis that it is "without question" that a manufacturer can set a minimum pricing policy.

He may be right, and it seems that decisions have been swinging that way for some time. However, I don't think we'll know until we all find out sometime this summer when the Supreme Court renders its decision on Leegin Creative Leather Products, Inc. v. PSKS, Inc., No. 06-480. Oral argument should be held in March 2007, with a decision to follow later.

Personally, as a consumer, I'm not a big fan of manufacturer price maintenance programs.

I think this has been a very informative thread. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

[Wilbur Pan]

What seems to be the main point is, who they're allowing to sell it to and why.
Here is where it gets a bit vague.

Consider profit is the most important issue in most companies, I'm having some doubt as it not being considered in their decision to eliminate Amazon, as it would seem the B&M shops would find a discount outlet not to their liking.
Possibly losing the B&M stores may be a bigger loss than Amazon.
Whether the decision not to sell through Amazon will be a wise one, I don't know. However, the terms under which Tormek allows their products to be sold can be set by Tormek. There's a part of antitrust law called the Colgate Doctrine. The Colgate Doctrine was established back in 1919. It states that in the US, a company may do business with whoever they want, may unilaterally discontinue doing business with any person, may determine the terms and conditions of its dealership agreements, and may announce in advance that it will refuse or cease to deal with or terminate distributors who do not comply with those terms, as long as they do not use any other methods of enforcing the terms other than discontinuation of business.

So as long as Tormek states in advance that no one can sell the Tormek Sharpening System for less than their stated price, imposes this rule on all of their dealers, and does not attempt to enforce this through means other than cutting off the sale of their product, it's entirely legal.


Price fixing or not?
Doesn't seem to make much difference as to what ya call it, if a product is available at only one price, and that is set by the manufacture, no matter what you call it, the results to the consumer are the same.
Not exactly. Price fixing is when suppliers collude to fix the price of their otherwise competing products above what market forces would dictate. So if Jet came out with their sharpening machine, and there was a closed room meeting that Jet had with Tormek such that both companies started selling their sharpening machines at $500, that would be price fixing.

Tormek's policy are their terms of doing business, and they are completely within their rights to set such terms, as outlined above. One way to look at what many in this thread are upset about is that Tormek simply is not responding to consumer's demands to sell their product at a discount. Just as companies cannot collude to set a price above fair market value, consumers do not have the inherent right to demand a discount. We can decide to not buy a product, but that's where the price influence ends.

[Homer Faucett]

Wilbur, while your statement of the Colgate Doctrine is definitely on target, I don't believe the question of price fixing is quite as simple or as cut and dried as your post makes it out to be.

A short snippet from a Georgia District Court gives a decent overview of the complexities of how the Colgate Doctrine will be applied.


[T]his Court can only find that Monsanto [a case interpreting the 1919 Colgate case and reviving the doctrine after some substantial erosion] acted to confirm the idea established in Colgate that a simple announcement and termination does not amount to the kind of agreement necessary to state a claim under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Where the actions involved are announcement and termination; monitoring of dealer performance through one's own employees or otherwise; or the use of third parties--to carry the message or to contact customers or replacement dealers--to effect a termination, no agreement is shown. At the same time, Monsanto leaves open the possibility of proving agreements by evidence that the manufacturer actively sought agreement through complex, coercive means. Such evidence would naturally require a showing of individualized negotiations with dealers, meetings, repeated exhortations, and the use of third parties in a way other than to gather information or to effect a termination.Ben Sheftall Distributing Co., Inc. v. Mirta de Perales, Inc.;791 F.Supp. 1575 (S.D. Ga. 1992).


I think we're all in for some schooling when the Supremes come out with their decision this summer.

[Dennis Hatchett]

Sales of the Jet may not necessarily cannibalize Tormek sales. Out there there is a group of woodworkers who would never think of spending more than $299 for a sharpening machine, regardless of how good it is or who makes it. Tormek will never make a sale to this group. Woodworkers in this group might by a Jet, but it will not translate into a lost sale for Tormek.

We had a similar discussion on another thread last week that compared the Jet and the Tormek. I'm one of those cost conscious woodworkers who took several years to finally purchase a sharpening machine for establishing bevels. I've made due with Norton stones but that takes a while when you need to establish the bevel or repair a damaged tool. So I finally decided to buy a Tormek and was ready to purchase when I found out about the Jet.

After a few weeks of research and discussions here on the Creek I ordered the Jet this weekend. I'm a huge fan of the Tormek having used one owned by a friend, but I'm a bigger fan of keeping as much of my own money as I possibly can. After reading Jeff's critique of the Jet and seeing the "imitator report" and after looking at the experiences of others with the Jet I decided it was worth the risk to try the Jet(and it is a small risk). My rationale centers primarily around saving a hundred bucks plus another 45 if you count accessories included with the Jet that are extra with the Tormek.

If Tormek had lowered their price It would have been a no brainer. I'd have bought the Tormek. But my loyalty to a product or any foreign company is less than my loyalty to my own wallet. This is a serious hobby for me but just a hobby. Every penny I spend is carefully stashed away for the purchase of a new tool. It often takes me years to come up with the money for a new tool because sending the kids to college is more of a priority(according to my wife who tells me this is true and I keep losing the argument so I guess it is).:(

I'm not the guy mentioned in the quote I included above who would "never by a Tormek." I'm the customer who would have purchased a Tormek if they had just been a little more competitive. There are also those guys, especially here at the Creek, who would buy the Tormek just because it costs more in pursuit of higher quality. I think Tormek will always have a market even if they raise their prices. But guys like me will struggle with the decision and hesitate more and more as soon as Grizzly comes up with their inevitable copy.

Only after reading numerous sources who clearly established that the Jet is a legitimate contender... Well, I'm gonna go with the Jet. I figure that if it isn't quite the machine I really need in terms of quality, the market for it is hot enough where I can sell it for a small loss and buy the Tormek and I still won't be out that much. And you can rest assured that there will be a new thread here if that happens.

I have a hunch I'll be using the Jet 10 years from now as 5 or 6 other clones clog the market. But I predict The Tormek will still be the most expensive and the most popular and still a great machine.

[Tony Porter]

Price fixing means that a distributor is cut off if they discount prices below acceptable levels. That has nothing to do with what TORMEK has done. If I close my storefront in Springfield and stop doing shows for TORMEK, relying completely on internet sales, I would be cut off, too.

Geez, you guys are a cynical bunch.

Do you really like dealing with clueless order takers?

the way i see it Tormek entered into an agreement with amazon to sell its machines, they in turn increase sales and with the volume they sell was able to get tormek to do a better price for them which meant a better price to the consumer tormek did this with there eyes open, to make amazon out to be the bad guys is wrong.

you say tormek wants local sale only through local distributers, i bet if i searched the web for retailers in a different state from me they wouldent point me to a local distributer they would take the sale, just as amazon did.

[Jim Isabella]

First of all, I have to say that I would never have bought a Tormek until I saw a demonstration by Jeff at a WW show in Cleveland a several years ago. It is the only tool I bought at that show. That is how impressive he was at demonstrating and marketing the product. And it has lived up to every one of his promises, in my opinion. I have called Sharp Tools USA a few times, and have had excellent support, even when it was me being stupid, and not the tool.........

Did I think it was overpriced? No, because I bought it. If I did, I would have passed. That was my decision, and I have the ability to make that decision. If the tool had not lived up to the claims of the manufacturer, then that would be another story, but that is not the case here....

Now for my rant......

It never ceases to amaze me that end users feel they have the "right" to dictate to a company what it should be sold for, and where they should be able to buy it. I have no idea what it costs Tomek to design, procure the parts, manufacture, distribute, market, and support their equipment. If they only want to sell through retail dealers and feel that $399 is the price that allows them and the dealers to make a profit, then why is that so terrible? If the unit were so horribly overpriced, then they would not have sold enough to stay in business all these years, and/or the price would have come down by default. If you or anyone else could produce a system with the "exact same" quality and price/perfomance benefits for $200, then don't you think it would have already been done? And before you scream about patent protection, that is exactly the reason those protections are in place! The people that invent a new solution to a problem have a period of time in which they are protected from imitators stealing their ideas and selling them for less. You may think that is unfair, but go invent something, and see how your position changes.......

I have owned my own business for 27 years. We sell at the higher end of the pricing schedules for our services in this area. But we consistantly have the service and support in place to be able to justify our pricing. If you do not agree with that position, you can always take your business somewhere else. But don't tell companies that they are wrong and that they are price gouging, when their business models are successful and growing. It really is that simple.

Thomas Edison put it another way:

If there is a better way to do something, find it.

[Gary Keedwell]

Jim

Here !!! Here!!! Couldn't agree more.


Gary K.

[Glenn Clabo]

Well said sir...

[Richard Keller]

1) Regardless of where in the supply chain it happens, if I can only buy an item at an MSRP, it is price fixing, Plan and Simple.


Actually, this is NOT a dictionary definition of price fixing. The dictionary definition is when a number of companies who make the same product (GAS FOR EXAMPLE) get together and decide they will all charge 80-90 cents/litre (about 3.20/gallon) ... this is what price fixing laws refer to ... price fixing laws came out of the Boston Tea Party incident...

When a manufacturer decides that it's product will be sold at a certain price, this does not qualify as price fixing. They simply want people to buy based on who they are, not who's kicking their price around like a football. In the end, this isn't likely to affect their bottom line, as Amazon was likely paying the same as everyone else, or very close to it.

Also, it has been my experience that the big box stores really arn't any cheaper. HD and others may throw tools on sale to get you in the building -- but bend WAY over when you buy supplies, accessories, wood, etc.

As always, "buyer be ware"

Richard.

[Chris Barton]

Why don't we just step away from this and let the marketplace decide...

[Gary Keedwell]

Marketplace decides regardless. Still fun to gab about it, though.;)

Gary K.

[William Daly]

I own a Tormek and all of the attachments and think it is a great sharpening system.

I shopped around, as I always do when buying a major tool.

I spoke with a man who works at a company that sells the Tormek.

He told me that he was told by the Tormek rep that if that company ever sold a Tormek below $389.00, that would be the last one he sold.

Is that price fixing?

Maybe not, but maybe price maintenance?

The Internet has really changed a lot of businesses and their practices, tool buying and selling included.

The Inetrnet is another form of competition in the marketplace, which is good for all, but those few who have a monopoly.

Jet has come out with a similiar system, Makita and Lee Valley have a horizontial system, and now we have a German entrant.

If Tormek wants to keep its market share, it will have to make a better product and sell it at a better price than the competition.

If it fails to do so, it and their representatives will lose market share and ultimately their jobs. Basic Econmonics.

Amazon uses it buying power and its Internet presence to deliver a product at lower price than most businsses are able.

Times change and the successful businesses learn to adapt to that change.

[Randall Davis]

Well Jeff, my last comments on the subject are:

1) Regardless of where in the supply chain it happens, if I can only buy an item at an MSRP, it is price fixing, Plan and Simple.

2) If the product is a quality product, I don't care who the order taker is. I don't expect to need to use customer service because the documentation is complete with understandable examples. If that means including videos, so be it. In addition, I don't expect to have to buy another MSRP worth of speciality fixtures to be sure I have all my needs needs covered. Finally, if the tool is so complex that I need hands on training, it is too complex from the get-go.

3) Lets face it, Tormek is simply over priced.

well said ken ! you nailed it!

[Dan Connolly]

Price fixing means that a distributor is cut off if they discount prices below acceptable levels. That has nothing to do with what TORMEK has done. If I close my storefront in Springfield and stop doing shows for TORMEK, relying completely on internet sales, I would be cut off, too.

Geez, you guys are a cynical bunch.

Do you really like dealing with clueless order takers?

Actually I think what most are saying is "we can figure out how to use a round wheel that spins";)

[Michael Gibbons]

Jeff has openly told everyone Jets weak points in regards to the design features that they have versus Tormek. If you are willing to live with them, and will not kick yourself for your mistake, then by all means go and purchase the Jet. If not, spend the extra cash and get the original. Plain and simple.

[Gary Keedwell]

well said ken ! you nailed it!

Well, when I go to the grocery store for my staples, I like to stroll down the no, no aisle and check out the potato chips and such. There is a brand that LOML and I have purchased forever. Most of the National brands are competively priced. However, there is a couple of semi-local chips with fancy labels and high prices. Once in a great while we will splurge and buy a bag of the "yuppie chips" as LOML calls them.
Well, every where we go they are expensive. Is that price fixing? NO. The manufacturer sets the price he wants to sell to the supermarket, who in turn sell to us for a profit.
If nobody buys them, they will go out of business. Apparently there is enough people who like them enough to buy them on a regular basis.
Do we cry and complain that the potato chips are too high in price and therefore it is "price fixing". No. We just stride over to the ones we usually buy and put them in our cart.
If you make something, you can charge what you want. If it is a good product and people are willing to pay for it....that is called Capitalism. If you want government controlled prices...you will have socialism.
If an individual does not want to pay for a quality item, like Tormek, then don't!!!!

Respectfully
Gary K.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

As Gary said.............a manufacturer has the right to charge what they think is a fair price for their product and it is not price fixing....

Is it price fixing that a Mercedes costs more than a VW?...........

Let it go!

[Chris Barton]

Jeff has openly told everyone Jets weak points in regards to the design features that they have versus Tormek. If you are willing to live with them, and will not kick yourself for your mistake, then by all means go and purchase the Jet. If not, spend the extra cash and get the original. Plain and simple.

Michael,

Not to overly belabor this point but, Jeff gave us his opinions in the comparison and if I recall correctly, in a differing portion of this thread there is a link to at least one side by side comparison of the two machines. Jeff is a vendor for Tormek so, there could be some bias in his opinion. Let everyone go out and make an informed choice and buy the machine that best fits their needs. So far the porported "weak points" have yet to be demonstrated to be actual deficiencies in the machine. The suggestion that purchasing the Jet is somehow an inferior choice doesn't seem to be grounded in evidence or fact.

[Steve Sawyer]

Price fixing means that a distributor is cut off if they discount prices below acceptable levels

I'd like to disagree with you on that, Jeff.

Price fixing is where manufacturers or service providers collude amongst themselves to artificially inflate prices.

What you're describing (and what Tormek may be doing) is reducing or eliminating marketing channel conflict - where some of a company's (valued) distributors get PO'd because they find themselves in competitition with other distributors offering the same product, and react by dropping the manufacturer's product line in favor of another in which there is either less price competition, or which they believe they can more easily differentiate on features and benefits rather than price.

"Price fixing" is illegal. Enforcing a minimum price, or requiring sales of product at the MSRP is perfectly legitimate. Ever notice how some products are the same exact price no matter where you find them? Take for example Yakima roof racks. Every distributor sells them for exactly the same price; there is no discounting. Anyone who tries to discount them would probably find themselves in violation of their distributor agreement with Yakima and could no longer carry the line.

Manufacturers will often, in exchange for the pricing requirement, give distributors exclusive territories, though this more often happens in business and industrial products than consumer products.

In any case, Tormek's moves might be an indication that they believe that they will do better in the long run by exercising more control over their distributors, combat price erosion from distributor competition, and improve customer service and responsiveness.

This is all part of that segment of the marketing field called "channel management".

[Jeff Farris]

I'd like to disagree with you on that, Jeff.

Price fixing is where manufacturers or service providers collude amongst themselves to artificially inflate prices.



You are exactly right, Steve. And, if I recall correctly, your point was brought up by someone else several months ago in a response in this same thread.

[Ken Shoemaker]

The closet thing to "eternal life on earth" is this debate.... Give it a rest already. It all boils down to Got Money = Tormek, Got No Money = Get Some Stones ;) and quit whinning

[Gary Hedges]

While I understand and appreciate your comments about the potential for price fixing. I also understand, as a salesperson, that when price is the only thing that matters to people shopping for anything, then they are setting themselves up for a big fall.
The blade cuts both ways. Getting the lowest price may mean no warranty, no support, unique(not supported) hardware etc. For some things this may be fine but if you want to be able to repair something, return a faulty product etc, you better read the fine print before making that price based purchase. Even Walmart has tightened their return policies as have many companies because of abusive something-for-nothing customers.
As a computer sales person we had people who borrowed laptop computers from us repeatedly. (Bought the laptop then returned it once their business trip/demo was over) In the end that resulted in a very strict return policy on laptop computers.
I may have problems with the price of the Tormek machines but I do respect the policy they have established. Folks need to make a choice about their buying decision and their needs. Buy the Cheapest thing going and toss it when it breaks or a part wears out OR cough up the bigger bucks for a heavyduty product from a company that has parts availablity and compatibility commitment for the long term.
"You buys your ticket, You takes your chances."

[Ben Rafael]

Not selling on amazon is bologna. The nearest store to me that sells Tormek is about a 2 hour drive, in hellish traffic, which I am not willing to make but once every 2 years or so. I buy about 90% of my woodworking tools online since I live in this woodworking wasteland. It would be nice to have a knowledgable dealer near me, but this is not reality and I am sure I am not the only one in this situation.

[Don Hein]

Perhaps Tormek's choice had as much or more to do with where the tool is built as with where it's sold? Maybe Tormek does not wish to manufacture in China? Is Tormek big/experienced/savvy enough to match up with Jet while playing Jet's game?

IMO, in general, tool advice from a hardware store salesperson usually is not especially authoritative, and may be biased toward encouraging a sale. In forums, posts which seek or share personal experiences and opinions about tools rarely parrot the views of salespeople, and certainly are not viewed as gospel. At least, I hope not.

Someone here mentioned Stihl as being possibly a distribution/sales model for Tormek. In my neighborhood, Stihl is sold at rent-it centers and farm-and-garden stores. The countermen I've dealt with at these stores over the years did not show broad knowledge of the Stihl equipment I've purchased, and in fact some have been, shall we say, clue-deprived.

When I contemplate a tool purchase, this and other forums are the information sources of choice. Users have no axe-grinding jig; sellers might.

[Nancy Laird]

Sounds like Bovine Excrement to me:( Their move is tantamount to price fixing.

No, Ken. It's called fair-trading, and it's more than Tormek that's doing this. Steel City does it too---keeps their dealers honest!!

Nancy (37 days)

[David Weaver]

Do you really like dealing with clueless order takers?

When I'm dealing with something that I've done a lot of research on, I like to shop "best price", regardless of where the order is coming from.

When I'm shopping for something that I don't know about, then I shop where I can get help and support.

When I'm shopping where I'm buying something that I know about but can't transport, then I still prefer to do local in case there are any complications.

I tend to side with those on here who are guessing that it has to do more with profitability than service. But what do we have to work on - a letter that is in no way unbiased, and a hunch. We could all be wrong. The profitability aspect could be trying to have more influence on retail prices, or it could be just trying to limit returns - or maybe a combination of both.

I would imagine that the number of returns coming from amazon is greater than what comes from a brick and mortar store, and the demand for a discount for volume and the right to price sale prices at levels that aren't tasteful to other retailers is probably greater.

If they need to make the move to stay in business in the long run, more power to them.

EDIT: boy was I late to the game in this one - I thought this was a new post until after I posted my reply.

[David Weaver]

There have to still be other places that can sell you one over the internet.

[Ben Rafael]

There have to still be other places that can sell you one over the internet.
There are at least 2 that I know of. Which makes taking them away from Amazon a ridiculous act.
My point is that I have no reasonable option to go view most wwing tools at a place where the help is knowledgable and can provide support, so removing an online seller merely because they have no storefront reduces my(and many other peoples) options to purchase tormek and it's accesories.
Without amazon selling tormek you will likely never see a sale on tormek until they are replacing the current model.

[Matt Lentzner]

Seems to me that Tormek is just following the business model that Festool uses. The high end is less price sensitive and more service sensitive. They can be the "best", but not necessarily the "best value". Of course, "best value" is very subjective and user dependant. I doubt they can compete even in the mid-range considering the labor costs they have. Certainly, for some people, it *is* the best value and those people should buy it. If it's too expensive for what you would get, then don't.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if they lose money on the machine and only make it back on the accessories. I have a feeling that Festool is in the same boat, hence, the proprietary accessories. I doubt they are making any obscene profits, and they certainly don't owe anybody a lower price. They are priced in a way that provides maximum benefit to the company - which by definition will be too high for some.

Matt

[Ben Rafael]

Tormek sells their stuff for whatever price.
The dealers can decide to discount or not.
Amazon is one of a very few sellers that offers free shipping. That probably caused a lot of folks to buy from amazon.
Trying to make your product classy/exclusive is a failed strategy for low price items. It works for $500,000 Ferraris. It is absurd for $300 tools.
Apple chose the exclusive route with Mac back in 1984. It doomed them to a 10% market share which they have kept more or less ever since. Apple previously held a 30% market share.
It's not brain surgery to make one of these things, perhaps a competitor will produce one as good as the tormek and not market it through an exclusive group of dealers. Competition is good for us.

[Gary Hedges]

Jeff - While I have stated several things about your posting on the Tormek vs Scheppach wet grinders that may seem aggressive/negative let me make one thing clear, I do not doubt the quality of a Tormek unit. That aside, I think we are in the middle of a major upheaval in the sales world for all sorts of products. The web has completely turned the sales world upside down as sellers can use others brick & mortar stores to 'show' products while they are able to operate out of a warehouses or with virtual warehouses and undercut retailers and traditional sale mediums.
What Tormek is doing is really not surprising except that they are still allowing dealers to sell over the internet. As far as pricing goes, we outsiders can speculate all we want but in the in end the only and best way to protest sales tactics that seem unfair is to buy another product. I am not advocating that just stating the obvious.
What does amaze me as a retail sales person (Flooring for a major home improvement chain.) is how absurd some peoples expectations have grown when making price comparisons and buying choices. Comment on this forum show that the public is still in many cases harboring unrealistic expectations of sellers in both the retail and web world.
My only comment to you on your product is keep it factual (as you seem to do consistently) and don't be drawn into the petty arguments that erupt on forums like this. Good luck on selling the Tormek - if I had the coins and could justify the purchase I would be an owner already. My needs are far to humble warrant buying a Tormek unit.

[Gary Hedges]

An interesting point made by one person on this forum is that we are importing and buying products made in China and other Pacific Rim countries but do are we actually going to come out the winners in the long run.
1) Companies contract with Overseas suppliers who can provide cheap labor and vastly lower cost goods with reasonable quality.
2) Those companies and eventually that countries fuel needs leap higher and higher creating an increase in demand and thus prices of oil world wide.
3) We as competing oil importers have to pay more for oil for a wide variety of our needs.
Therefore are we saving as much in prices as we are going to pay out in the long term for increased oil prices? Initially we may sale of course but...
Let us also not forget that some of these countries are not as tightly constrained in their environmental impact concerns and, as they grow economically, they will also have more money to compete with us for resources such as oil and other raw materials.

Off the immediate topic for sure but when we talk prices and attempt to justify our demands for the lowest possible price, we need to think ahead to the long term impact our our lives and our childrens lives.

[Gary Keedwell]

WOW Two posts exactly the same in a two minute span....What's up with that?:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Gary

[Brett Baldwin]

I always find it amusing that a post started almost two years ago stirs up this much rancor this long after.

[Gary Hedges]

Tormek sells their stuff for whatever price.
The dealers can decide to discount or not.
Amazon is one of a very few sellers that offers free shipping. That probably caused a lot of folks to buy from amazon.
Trying to make your product classy/exclusive is a failed strategy for low price items. It works for $500,000 Ferraris. It is absurd for $300 tools.
Apple chose the exclusive route with Mac back in 1984. It doomed them to a 10% market share which they have kept more or less ever since. Apple previously held a 30% market share.
It's not brain surgery to make one of these things, perhaps a competitor will produce one as good as the tormek and not market it through an exclusive group of dealers. Competition is good for us.
Ben - As you state Amazon ships SOME items for free but read the fine print. IF you are willing to wait 3-5 days for slower handling <BEFORE SHIPPING HAPPENS> and if you are willing to have shipping costs deducted from your return total in the event you return the product.
Tormek Has done something few other companies can or will do - they provide long term support for parts and pieces. Comparing Apples (Computers) to Tormeks is not a good or fair comparison. Apple had/has other issues very different from whatever issues you may wish to sling at them.

[fRED mCnEILL]

"Just wait until the Chinese figure out that they can knock off the Tormek and sell it for $150 and still make a hefty profit... (In case anyone was curious that was being cynical"

They already do. Harbour Freight has it for $100.

Don't know anything about it though.

Fred Mc.

[Ben Rafael]

IME Tormek provides support no matter who you by it from.
Amazon return policy is pretty much like anybody elses; returns of defective product are free, returns because you dont want/like something costs the buyer.

[Randy Klein]

I know this is an old thread, but when and why did Tormek resume selling via Amazon? As in this link (http://www.amazon.com/TORMEK-T-7-Cooled-Sharpening-System/dp/B000W0D3NE/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1195131365&sr=8-1). Is Amazon providing better customer service now?

[Ben Rafael]

My guess is that Someone at Tormek realized it was not a good move to stop selling via Amazon.

[Glenn Clabo]

I think this is how they do it.... "Availability: In Stock. Ships from and sold by Advanced Machinery."

[Matt Meiser]

My guess is that Someone at Tormek realized it was not a good move to stop selling via Amazon.

Its not Amazon selling it, its actually one of the official Tormek mailorder vendors. (http://www.tormek.usen/distributors/us_mailorder.php).

It looks like Sharp Tools USA no longer sells the Tormek systems other than at the shows as well. Only replacement parts are available on their web site. (http://www.sharptoolsusa.com)

[David Weaver]

That's an amazon seller listing. Tormek can't really do much about any of their brick and mortar dealers choosing to sell through the amazon marketplace.

I can't believe that thing is $500, though - regardless of how many Christmas ornaments are on it.

[Bill White]

I look at this issue in the light of my own buying experiences, so maybe I have a somewhat slanted view.
I would never have bought a Kreg jig if I had not seen it demoed at a WW show, bought the Griz TS if I had not laid hands on it, the DC bags from Highland Systems if I had not had the help from their sales staff.
Ever wonder why you can't buy a VIKING RANGE from the internet supplier?
Ever tried to get finishing information from www.idunnodat.com (http://www.idunnodat.com)? (That's not a real site).
Now I feel better.
Bill

Bill

[Tom Henderson2]

Okay, here is an example. It is something that I have experienced hundreds of times over the years, and I can imagine that every Woodcraft and Rockler floor sales rep has experienced it as well. We'll make you the dealer. so you can experience it, too.

A customer comes in your store, and expresses interest in the TORMEK. You spend the better part of an hour going over the machine with him. You ignore other customers, because this guy's intensity level has convinced you that he is serious about dropping the hammer today. You ask him if he's ready to take one home, and he says to you,


"Oh, I bought it from Amazon last week. I just wanted you to show me how to use it." As part of my agreement to represent TORMEK at The Woodworking Shows, I smile and continue helping them as best I can. But, if I was a Woodcraft store owner or manager, my reaction might be different.

Relating back to the first response in this thread, Stihl power equipment has maintained a loyal distributor base and a loyal end user base by staying out of the big boxes and away from Amazon. The dealers are happy with Stihl, the end users are happy with the dealers, and yes, Stihl knows that they could sell thousands more saws if they would drop the price and open up the lines of distribution. But how long would it last?


Every coin has two sides -- let me show you the flip side of the situation you described.

In my community, there are no good woodworking tool retailers. It is the borgs, a few contractor-trade vendors, and that is about it. The nearest Woodcraft or Rockler is an hour and a half away. So If I want something not sold by the borgs, I either buy by mailorder or I do without.

And of course even the best stores don't stock everything; so they may or may not have an item to show to me and sell when I get there. But of course they will "be happy to special-order that for you."

So my primary sources of info are magazine tool reviews, forums like SMC and to a lesser extent online/catalog descriptions.

So a decision like Tormek's to eliminate the lower-priced vendors hurts me. I have to pay for their increased overhead and get no value from it at all.

And I think that is true for most folks.

NOW -- anybody that shops at a local merchant and picks their brain and then goes out and buys online is not behaving ethically in my view; if you need the retailers help to make your choice you owe them the sale. I just wish I had such a retailer nearby.

I wish Tormek well. But clearly this is more about dollars and cents than customer service.

[Jeff Farris]

It looks like Sharp Tools USA no longer sells the Tormek systems other than at the shows as well. Only replacement parts are available on their web site. (http://www.sharptoolsusa.com)

Matt et. al.

As of January 1st of this year, SharpToolsUSA ceased to operate on a retail level, and became the management for Tormek in the United States. We now warehouse in the US to streamline distribution. We handle all service work (still) and parts distribution. We work in support of the dealer network.

[Jon Bonham]

That's an amazon seller listing. Tormek can't really do much about any of their brick and mortar dealers choosing to sell through the amazon marketplace.

Sure they can. They can do what they do in my industry and say "Any internet sales are prohibited. Dealers violating this policy will no longer be dealers."

[Ed Beers]

I see that HF sells a similar looking sharpener for $99.

ITEM 95236-1VGA

Has anyone here used one?

[Chris Schoolland]

If getting it cheap (whatever "it" is) is the be-all, end-all, let's all get rid of our tools and tell our customers, family, and friends to get photo-grain "furniture" from Kmart.

Sure, there's a place for the Harbor Freight mentality. I utilize it myself sometimes. But in general I believe in supporting quality. Personally, I'm pleased with my Tormek, and appreciate the knowledgeable, service-oriented touch Jeff offers. I'd buy from him again.

[David Weaver]

Right - I guess I phrased that wrong. They can't tell amazon not to allow brick and mortar dealers to sell on their site - they'll have to deal with them individually. And in the end, what's the difference between the brick and mortar sellers selling on amazon marketplace vs. selling from their own website for $389 or $399. I would bet they don't care unless someone drops below their pricing policy, and I see their point with it.

They make a margin at 389 or 399 at the retail level, and everyone along the line can make that margin. As long as the price stays up there and all other things are the same, they can keep making the machine the way they want to and budgeting enough for customer support, etc. As soon as someone knocks 10 or 20 bucks off here or there, and all of the sudden, the price is down to $349, everyone is buying it from the supplier selling it for that, all of the other sellers complain and what is Tormek's first option? Try to reduce costs either in the product, the manufacturing or the supply (be it through logistics or through what kinds of dealers they want to do). If they're forced to lower it enough, then they have to start cutting costs on the machine, and they're in pure commodity territory where everything is on the table for compromise (in terms of design and quality) - and that's a bad place to be.

The issue with me and everyone else that is real, is that we're not Tormek type customers. There isn't anything that I do in my shop that really requires a tormek, and I don't like hollow grinds to begin with. But, I and everyone else have been trained to wait for sale deals and jump on products when they do come into our sweetspot - and tormek, like festool, has said "piss off - we don't operate that way. You're either into our quality at our specs or you're not our type of customer". I do have to respect that, even though the reports of threats to take away the right to sell the machines sounds kind of rotten, not everyone does business on the same level that we like to think they do (i.e., some companies want absolute control over how and where their products are sold, and they'll make sure they have it).

[Michael Gibbons]

That's It!!! I'm locking this thread!!!

[Alex Berkovsky]

I see that HF sells a similar looking sharpener for $99.

ITEM 95236-1VGA

Has anyone here used one?Ed,
That is a Scheppach knockoff, not a Tormek.

[Al Willits]

Interesting topic....kinda.

First off, who says ya have to buy ultra expensive tools to do good work?
Wonder how they got by years ago, musta been hell not to have a sawstop/tormex/festool huh?
Nothing wrong with buying the most spendy stuff ya can buy, but not sure for many its needed.

Got another scenario for ya, guy goes into Woodcraft to find out how his widget works he bought on line, instead of getting all prissy, the salesperson helps him understand the widget and explains all that Woodcraft has to offer, including accessories for that widget he/she/it bought, you blow the person off, your not much of a salesperson.

Also you put them on your weekly email filer list and tell him the advantages of buying in person and how easy it is to get help with the next widget he buys, and if it fails, how easy it is to return (while under warrt).

Me thinks we have a bit of spin doctoring here..

Personally I think whether you call it price fixing, unfair business practices or whatever, those that look for sales aren't to fond of it, those who can't wait to spend money don't care, and the rest are somewhere in the middle.

Gramps always said, spend a little, save a little.....hard to save anything with this crowd....:D

Al

[David Weaver]

Over what? I think all we've determined is that Tormek has implicitly said they are dealing with the segment of the market who views quality above all else.

That makes some people mad (not me, if that's what it takes to determine that there is at least one 100% guaranteed quality item on the market), but fine if they determine that's the price that's required for them to have the level of quality and implicit profit built in to ensure customer service.

[Corey Road]

I spent just about an hour at Woodcraft getting the lay of the land on the Tormek T-7 and if I buy, it will be from Woodcraft. They invested in me, with some time, and I'll choose to do, what I think is right thing give them the business. If I have any problems, I'd like to think they'll give me the attention I think I deserve. If they don't, I'll let them know about that too.

[Chuck Saunders]

This was a thread that ended in 2007, let it go

[Ken Shoemaker]

+1 for Chuck