DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid), One size fits all?

[ChrisA Edwards]

I have a 6 year old BMW X5 Diesel.

We've had a maintenance contract on it and as such, have never added DEF to the vehicle.

Now that contract has expired, it's time for me to start doing this.

From my little bit of reading, DEF meets a certain ISO standard and there is only one formula of it, i.e. there aren't various grades of DEF like gasoline.

So I guess what I'm asking, there really isn't different grades for different vehicles that require DEF.

Thanks.

[Tom M King]

Fortunately, my diesel is old enough not to use it, but I've never seen but one choice available anywhere it's sold.

[John Stankus]

It is just a Urea solution in deionized water. The standard specifies the concentration at 32% (I think it is specified w/w (mass/mass) rather than vol/vol or even the abomination of w/v)
Personally, I would have rather have the newer system on my truck, since the non-DEF trucks have issues with soot buildup in the EGR system (at least a certain range of Ram Cummins). It is less of an issue if the truck is always run hard...

Also, with DEF you can get a more efficient tune. My father-in-law has a five year newer RAM than mine (I am on the hand-me-down trail :-) ) and he gets much better fuel efficiency.

[Howard Garner]

Just by a cube of DEF at WalMart, Auto Parts, or Gas Station. No difference.
Some truck stop locations have DE at the truck diesel pumps.
I have not seen it at the auto-diesel pumps
Running a 2015 VW Golf TDI that requires DEF

Howard Garner

[Rob Luter]

Your local auto parts store has it. There’s one formula. I have a 2014 328d and am in the same boat.

[Tom M King]

My diesel is an '01, the last year when even an EGR system wasn't required. Maybe I should feel guilty about my pollution, but a 7400 pound truck that burns a gallon per 18.8 miles eases the pain, and also increases the reluctance to trade it.

[ChrisA Edwards]

Much appreciated everybody.

[Adam Grund]

When I needed it, I found a truck stop that sold it at the pump. They dispensed super fast since it’s made to service semi’s, just had to Baby the trigger. Best deal I was finding in parts stores was $13 for 2.5 gal, truck stop was something like $2.99/gal- essentially half priced. Depending on how much your consumption is, it may be worth it. I was using roughly 1 gal/ 1k miles

[Mike Kreinhop]

My German Ford Ranger has a 3.2L diesel engine and requires the DEF in order to meet the Euro 6d emissions standards. The product is sold here as AdBlue and is available at the pump or separately in 5, 10, and 20 liter containers. Without AdBlue in the reservoir, the truck won't start. If the reservoir runs dry while on the road, and the driver ignores the warnings before that point, the truck will go into "limp home" mode with reduced power and then won't restart until enough AdBlue is added to register with the reservoir sensors.

[Adam Grund]

My German Ford Ranger has a 3.2L diesel engine and requires the DEF in order to meet the Euro 6d emissions standards. The product is sold here as AdBlue and is available at the pump or separately in 5, 10, and 20 liter containers. Without AdBlue in the reservoir, the truck won't start. If the reservoir runs dry while on the road, and the driver ignores the warnings before that point, the truck will go into "limp home" mode with reduced power and then won't restart until enough AdBlue is added to register with the reservoir sensors.

And that is why this diesel will be my last. It does amazing the times I need it to heavy haul, but nothing I couldn’t absolutely do with gas.
It’s really irks me that they shut the engines down over a fluid that only effects emissions and is not detrimental to the engine at all. Not just running out, but any fault in that def or dpf system will shut it down, at least in the duramax. And if that part isn’t readily available, the vehicle is down for the count.

[Mike Kreinhop]

And that is why this diesel will be my last. It does amazing the times I need it to heavy haul, but nothing I couldn’t absolutely do with gas.
It’s really irks me that they shut the engines down over a fluid that only effects emissions and is not detrimental to the engine at all. Not just running out, but any fault in that def or dpf system will shut it down, at least in the duramax. And if that part isn’t readily available, the vehicle is down for the count.

The Germans are serious about emissions, and I don't know of any trucks made for the German market that have gasoline engines. I stopped looking at the market when I bought my Ranger, but the only motors available for any of the other brands were diesel.

The AdBlue warning light for my truck starts when about 2,500KM of range remains in the reservoir, which is about three full tanks of fuel at Autobahn speeds. The audible warning starts when about 1,000KM or range remains, so I can't imagine anyone being a victim of the engine shutdown with so much advanced warning. I imagine anyone who would be caught by surprise by an empty DEF tank would also be crushed to death by a glacier that sneaks up on them. The audible warning can be dismissed until the next engine start.

Every hardware store and gas station sells the containers of AdBlue. Nearly every gas station has at least one dispenser at the pumps and the cost at the pump is about €0.60 per liter. I routinely top of the 20-liter AdBlue tank every 4,000KM, which takes about 10 liters.

[Adam Grund]

The Germans are serious about emissions, and I don't know of any trucks made for the German market that have gasoline engines. I stopped looking at the market when I bought my Ranger, but the only motors available for any of the other brands were diesel.

The AdBlue warning light for my truck starts when about 2,500KM of range remains in the reservoir, which is about three full tanks of fuel at Autobahn speeds. The audible warning starts when about 1,000KM or range remains, so I can't imagine anyone being a victim of the engine shutdown with so much advanced warning. I imagine anyone who would be caught by surprise by an empty DEF tank would also be crushed to death by a glacier that sneaks up on them. The audible warning can be dismissed until the next engine start.

Every hardware store and gas station sells the containers of AdBlue. Nearly every gas station has at least one dispenser at the pumps and the cost at the pump is about €0.60 per liter. I routinely top of the 20-liter AdBlue tank every 4,000KM, which takes about 10 liters.

While I am annoyed at the running out, yes they do give plenty of warning. Still in my mind doesn’t constitute an engine shutdown. What is more of a middle finger is the faults within the system that will trigger a shutdown. Couple years ago a customer had a def heater go bad, trigger a code and went in to low power mode while towing a trailer full of horses. Heater grid is part of tank, which was on backorder for 12 weeks. So for 3 months he had a boat anchor unable to haul his trailer. Many more examples, just one off top of my head.
I can only speak to us market, but there is no gasoline counterpart that reacts in the same manor. You could unplug every emissions component on one and still drive, just with a few extra lights on the dash

[Jim Koepke]

While I am annoyed at the running out, yes they do give plenty of warning. Still in my mind doesn’t constitute an engine shutdown.

How many do you suppose would run without DEF if there wasn't a consequence?

jtk

[Adam Grund]

How many do you suppose would run without DEF if there wasn't a consequence?

jtk

The consequence, in my opinion, should just be a check engine light. Can get cleared when refilled, or when any fault gets corrected. Low power mode is a dangerous action for a system that isn’t damaging to the drivetrain.
But to more directly answer your question- a good many probably. there are a lot of gasoline check engine lights illuminating the lands out there that not many are interested in fixing.

[Ronald Blue]

The consequence, in my opinion, should just be a check engine light. Can get cleared when refilled, or when any fault gets corrected. Low power mode is a dangerous action for a system that isn’t damaging to the drivetrain.
But to more directly answer your question- a good many probably. there are a lot of gasoline check engine lights illuminating the lands out there that not many are interested in fixing.

That would mean many diesel powered vehicles running with empty DEF tanks then. No incentive to refill if there is no consequence. My work truck uses DEF and its about a 6 gallon tank. Cummins QSC series in a Freightliner. I try to hit stations with it at the pump but that doesn't always work out. I've got a 2.5 gallon jug I need to dump in now. The other day is the first time in 5500 miles I noticed the hot exhaust light was on but when doing a driving regen it sounds differently as well. No one likes it but it's here to stay.

[Jim Koepke]

The consequence, in my opinion, should just be a check engine light. Can get cleared when refilled, or when any fault gets corrected. Low power mode is a dangerous action for a system that isn’t damaging to the drivetrain.
But to more directly answer your question- a good many probably. there are a lot of gasoline check engine lights illuminating the lands out there that not many are interested in fixing.

Click and Clack on Car Talk used to joke about black tape to fix the check engine light. My car tells me to change engine oil if resetting the computer is forgotten.

DEF is what allows us to use diesel without putting a lot of noxious gasses in the atmosphere. Some people do not care about such things.

Before a vehicle goes into low power mode is there a gauge or other warning that it is getting low?

It may be the only way some people will bother to keep an eye on the DEF tank level is if there is a draconian way to make them pay attention.

jtk

[Rob Luter]

When I got my diesel sedan I was a bit miffed at the DEF issues too. Mine will actually shut the car off if you run dry. You get a warning light about 1000 miles in advance. That said, a tank lasts about 10K miles and it's easy to just top it off when changing the oil. The stuff is cheap and easy to add. I like that it takes NOx out of the exhaust. I like that my exhaust has no odor. My car gets 40 MPG in mixed driving and 50 MPG on the freeway. A 15 gallon tank of fuel will last 600 miles daily driving and 700 miles on a trip. Lots more upside to downside. What chaps my hide is that they (BMW, VW, Benz) are not bringing diesels into the US any more. This whole VW fiasco and the decision that electric cars are the future has made them unavailable unless you want to buy a massive pickup.

[Adam Grund]

I like that my exhaust has no odor.

Mine would smell. Def’d mine smelled like ammonia. While Smells are subjective, for short idling like if I were hooking up a trailer- I still prefer diesel fuel exhaust to a def exhaust. It would make me nauseous if I had to smell it longer than a min or so.


Click and Clack on Car Talk used to joke about black tape to fix the check engine light. My car tells me to change engine oil if resetting the computer is forgotten.

DEF is what allows us to use diesel without putting a lot of noxious gasses in the atmosphere. Some people do not care about such things.

Before a vehicle goes into low power mode is there a gauge or other warning that it is getting low?

It may be the only way some people will bother to keep an eye on the DEF tank level is if there is a draconian way to make them pay attention.

jtk

You’re not wrong, and that’s most likely why the system is put in to place, it just makes no sense to me. But the point is moot, it’s here to stay and no ones changing it because I’m complaining about it.

[Bill Dufour]

I understand it has a sensor so it will shut down if you fill with just plan water instead of DEF.
Bill D

[Rob Luter]

Mine would smell. Def’d mine smelled like ammonia. While Smells are subjective, for short idling like if I were hooking up a trailer- I still prefer diesel fuel exhaust to a def exhaust. It would make me nauseous if I had to smell it longer than a min or so.


You’re not wrong, and that’s most likely why the system is put in to place, it just makes no sense to me. But the point is moot, it’s here to stay and no ones changing it because I’m complaining about it.


Let me elaborate. No diesel odor. Mild chlorine odor to my nose. I can start it in the garage (with the door open) prior to my wife coming out and after 5 or 10 minutes she still can’t smell a thing.

[Jim Koepke]

Some diesel trucks are equipped with remote start so the vehicle can warm up while pouring a coffee for the road.

jtk

[Jeff Bartley]

It is just a Urea solution in deionized water. The standard specifies the concentration at 32% (I think it is specified w/w (mass/mass) rather than vol/vol or even the abomination of w/v)
Personally, I would have rather have the newer system on my truck, since the non-DEF trucks have issues with soot buildup in the EGR system (at least a certain range of Ram Cummins). It is less of an issue if the truck is always run hard...

Also, with DEF you can get a more efficient tune. My father-in-law has a five year newer RAM than mine (I am on the hand-me-down trail :-) ) and he gets much better fuel efficiency.

What kind of mileage do the new Cummins get? Just curious, I still see 21 mpg from my ‘96 12-valve.

[Jeff Bartley]

It is just a Urea solution in deionized water. The standard specifies the concentration at 32% (I think it is specified w/w (mass/mass) rather than vol/vol or even the abomination of w/v)
Personally, I would have rather have the newer system on my truck, since the non-DEF trucks have issues with soot buildup in the EGR system (at least a certain range of Ram Cummins). It is less of an issue if the truck is always run hard...

Also, with DEF you can get a more efficient tune. My father-in-law has a five year newer RAM than mine (I am on the hand-me-down trail :-) ) and he gets much better fuel efficiency.


When I got my diesel sedan I was a bit miffed at the DEF issues too. Mine will actually shut the car off if you run dry. You get a warning light about 1000 miles in advance. That said, a tank lasts about 10K miles and it's easy to just top it off when changing the oil. The stuff is cheap and easy to add. I like that it takes NOx out of the exhaust. I like that my exhaust has no odor. My car gets 40 MPG in mixed driving and 50 MPG on the freeway. A 15 gallon tank of fuel will last 600 miles daily driving and 700 miles on a trip. Lots more upside to downside. What chaps my hide is that they (BMW, VW, Benz) are not bringing diesels into the US any more. This whole VW fiasco and the decision that electric cars are the future has made them unavailable unless you want to buy a massive pickup.

I’m in the same camp Rob, with the addition of Def systems diesels are no longer emitting the Nox, they get fantastic mileage, fuel is cheaper to refine.....what’s no to love? Add to that low end torque for days? So fun to drive, esp with a third pedal! But so few have experienced that joy. I may just try to find an older TDI to play around with.