Anyone with surveying experience?

[Erik Loza]

Our neighbors are planning a remodel and had their lot surveyed recently. The driveway on our property is next to the yard on their side, if that makes sense. The nail their surveyor put down, to my surprise, is about 8"-10" INSIDE our driveway line. This struck me as odd: When we remodeled our house in 2012, we had a new fence put in along between our driveway and their yard. I remember purposely instructing the fence guys to make sure it was well on our side of the property line, so as to avoid any future issues. Now, our fence guys could have obviously screwed up but the other puzzling thing is this new survey nail appears to be well on our side of the concrete driveway entrance that is original City construction from way-back-when. In other words, if the new nail is to be believed, our driveway threshold is easily on their property. I have our survey from 2012 but not sure I can really interpret the drawings. Can anyone here lend some insight? Are these surveys ever "wrong"? We have a good relationship with those neighbors but "if" they want to do something about our fence, I feel like I should know more.

Erik

[Jim Koepke]

My recent experience with a survey done by my neighbor makes me think surveys are like snow flakes… No two are alike.

To my surprise, the neighbor found out half of his animal pen and woodshed are on my property. Some of the survey markers do not line up with older survey markers.

Life goes on. Makes me wonder if a written agreement is needed to prevent an adverse possession problem in the future.

jtk

[Brice Rogers]

Yes, it is possible that the survey could be in error - - either yours or theirs.

If you can find the original surveyors pins on the corners of your property and have the surveyors plat map, you should- - armed with a 100 foot tape measure, get an idea of what is going on. Either that or hire a surveyor yourself.

[Lee Schierer]

You can get pretty close to the markers using a hand held gps. The notations on the plat should be a bearing and distance from a point. Start at one known point and measure on that bearing and distance.

[Stan Calow]

Bite the bullet and hire a surveyor. You may have good relations now, but it'll be a problem if either if you decide to sell.

I had my suburban lot marked when I couldn't find the pins anymore. The surveyor offered a cheaper "paper survey" where they just went off the description in the records, but I wanted and paid for an actual measured survey where they tied it back to a known landmark in the neighborhood. He told me that most people just do the paper description when they buy/sell, so could easily get messed up.

[Tom M King]

The newer the survey, the more accurate it Can be. It depends on what they pulled the first point from. Surveys started off being counted in steps, and then dragging chains while counting lengths of chain, and may, or may not have allowed for variation by slope. Today, they use extremely accurate instruments with electronic help.

If it's a subdivision, there was probably a reliable survey made to start with. After that, it depends on the accuracy of the surveyor.

I like having state roads for property lines.

[John K Jordan]

Did the surveyor drive a boundary marker deep in the ground (usually a foot or more of rebar) capped with a bright orange survey cap, or did he drive a smaller, shorter "nail"?

Note that surveyors often put in a temporary nail while surveying, sort of a temporary marker for them to take measurements and triangulate from from. These nails are often off the property line, even on neighboring property. They should be marked as such. I don't know for sure, but I think they use them for triangulation when the line-of-sight is obscured to the end boundary markers. I've found them 6' inside my property line. They will usually take them back up when finished but may forget. When I find them I just pull them up. If they need to use them again they can put down more. A "nail" in temporary and a "stake" is permanent. I believe it is illegal to remove or move a permanent stake.

(I had a neighbor dig up my corner stake when putting in a fence and neglect to tell me. He then set it in concrete and said it put it in the same place. I'll hire a surveyor to check it and if wrong, he will have to pay for the surveyor AND move the fence post!)

I've found several temporary survey markers (nails) in the 8' in the woods on my property, 8' from the property line. They are sometimes painted or pin down some colored surveyor's tape. One was tagged to indicate it was a temporary marker.

If the nail is obviously inside your property an not a stake driven at least a foot into the ground you can probably just ignore it. Another thing is to ask the neighbor for the name of the surveyor company (or check the county records where the survey is registered) and ask.

Yes, surveyors can make mistakes but with todays compuer-controlled precision laser based equipment it's pretty rare.

BTW, one thing I did when I bought my 27 acre property was walk around and locate every surveyor boundary pin - easy to do with a good GPS. This is best done in winter for several reasons, especially since the leaves are down. There were many boundary markers on this oddly shaped property and I found each one. Some were buried under a few inches of leaves or dirt. I wrapped each with some fluorescent orange tape and in the woods tied long streamers from the surveyor pins to suitable nearby trees and branches. This makes them very easy to locate. When a line-of-sight was impossible because of brush and trees, I measured a few feet off the line on both ends to a clear area and drove in a temporary post. Then I could use a laser to get a line-of-sight between each temporary post. From that I could put down other temporary markers then measure back from them to find the true property line. I compared the measured distances to the surveyor's map that came with the property. I have about a mile of boundary. Just for fun and for visualizationI make an accurate 3D model of the terrain using a topo map and draped an old satellite photo on it.

457033 457034

JKJ



Our neighbors are planning a remodel and had their lot surveyed recently. The driveway on our property is next to the yard on their side, if that makes sense. The nail their surveyor put down, to my surprise, is about 8"-10" INSIDE our driveway line. This struck me as odd: When we remodeled our house in 2012, we had a new fence put in along between our driveway and their yard. I remember purposely instructing the fence guys to make sure it was well on our side of the property line, so as to avoid any future issues. Now, our fence guys could have obviously screwed up but the other puzzling thing is this new survey nail appears to be well on our side of the concrete driveway entrance that is original City construction from way-back-when. In other words, if the new nail is to be believed, our driveway threshold is easily on their property. I have our survey from 2012 but not sure I can really interpret the drawings. Can anyone here lend some insight? Are these surveys ever "wrong"? We have a good relationship with those neighbors but "if" they want to do something about our fence, I feel like I should know more.

Erik

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

I worked for a land survey company for many years pulling records for the licensed surveyors and field crew. I can say for a fact that yes, surveyors do make mistakes. Like every profession, there are good ones and bad ones; and some that think they know what they are doing, and some that actually do know what they are doing. There were several bad surveyors in my region that were known for their sloppy calculations and vague drawings from the 1960's to 1990's. There were also certain surveyors that were from the 1950's to 1980's that were extremely accurate even through all the dense brush they had to blaze through. We often came across problems when the old plat or parcel had been originally surveyed by a civil engineer - their calculations were off as much as 40' in length!

Field crews will set a temporary nail or chunk of wood to use for their calculations when they cannot see a straight line or access that area. Some leave them, while others will retrieve them when they are finished. A field person can be a licensed surveyor, or they can be a hired hand to whack through the brush & gather data while the surveyor stays in the office.

I am still friends with some of the people at the survey company I worked for and their "problem surveyor" is still a major problem even though they have all the new technology. They can't get rid of him. He married into the company and was given majority ownership.

Depending upon your county recording office personnel, you might be able to contact them and ask for a referral to a good surveyor. If an employee has been there long enough, and they are honest, they can tell you which surveyors you need to avoid.

You can also hire a different surveyor to review the recorded survey and check their calculations. That person doesn't have to come out to the property and that can save you a large chunk of money if they don't find any errors with the calculations.

[John K Jordan]

You can also hire a different surveyor to review the recorded survey and check their calculations. That person doesn't have to come out to the property and that can save you a large chunk of money if they don't find any errors with the calculations.

I carefully reviewed a surveyor's map for 120 acres that was in the family. I wrote a spreadsheet and put in all coordinates and angles to check their math. My spreadsheet drew a map of the boundary as a double check. I found one point in the wrong place, about 40' off. Pays to check.

[Lee Schierer]

If you have a cad program you can draw the outline of your property using the angle and distance numbers on the survey plat. If the numbers don't bring you back to the starting point, there is an error in the plat.

[Alex Zeller]

Do you know who did the survey? If not I would find out. You need to call them and ask what it is. I don't know about you but I would not want a nail in my driveway. At some point that nail is going to come out of the ground and find a tire. There's laws governing the removal of some survey markers and such so you shouldn't just remove it.

[Larry Frank]

For your peace of mind, hire a good surveyor and get a stake survey.

My neighbor pulled up a couple pins. I had a new survey done with pins and then drove heavy duty fence posts next to them. I was putting in a new fence and found that he had built a shed partly on my property. He had bought the home without a survey. He had to move the shed and then complained loudly about my 6 ft privacy fence.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Legal descriptions can be easy to follow (Tract No., Lot No.) or nearly impossible (called metes and bounds). So your question is one that no one can really answer. Post your legal description, and I'll try to answer your question.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

the metes and bounds description in a deed are not necessarily the actual lines of the property. There is a priority in most states for existing corners, fences, etc. as a variation from the deed description. In one famous case here, the surveyor crew made a mistake in marking the first lot in a line of 20 or 30 lots. The result was that every bodies house on each lot going down the street was too close to the subdivision plot lines to comply with municipal set back rules. ie, the marked lot lines were all about 8 ft off from the actual deeds. A fiasco that required every body to sign corrective deeds, fouled up the lot sizes for the end lots, etc. In addition, sometimes deed descriptions contain errors when copied over from prior deeds. One line I share with a neighbor is 579 feet. But on his deed, that same line is described as 579 RODS, which would extend his property across two roads and through a couple of neighbor's houses. In the case of some friends, one of the "courses" was left out of their deed from the prior owner, a 700+ ft line, so the deed didn't close and created all kinds of problems with a "city" neighbor who put a driveway across the corner of their property based on the missing deed course. When i had my property surveyed it was found that the original plot subdivision was off by a ft from the actual marked corners. the neighbor's lot was to extend 212 ft from the road right of way, but the marked corner that every one had been going by for years was actually 213 ft from the road. According to the surveyor, the marked corners control over deed descriptions.

Another neighbor's property was surveyed by a guy named Miller 35 yrs ago. When his adjoining land owner had his property surveyed, the same surveyor marked the line differently, resulting in a very long skinny triangle overlap. The fellow called the surveyor and questioned the difference. The surveyor claimed that couldn't happen. It turns out. One of the property lines started in the middle of a public road and the road was shifted by several feet North in between the surveys.

One of the confusing things that occurs with some surveys is the way they triangulate corners and put in stakes that are not really the corners. It drove me crazy when my surveyor did that. Stakes were put in that were not the actual corners, but were some how used to locate the corners.

I guess the point is nothing is certain. Mistakes frequently happen and I would be calling the surveying outfit from years ago to come out and explain what the heck is going on.

[Lee Schierer]

In the town near us there is an error in most of the property lines. We discovered this when we decided to pave the driveway at the church. If the surveyor starts at the north end of town and works to the south the church property line falls where the edge of the driveway has been for over 100 years. However, if the surveyor starts on the south end of the town, the church property line on the north side is about three feet inside the neighbors house on the north side of the church. The church deed states that the north property line starts at the "sandstone foundation blocks" of a barn that was on the property when it was deeded to the church.

During the driveway paving process the contractor located those foundation blocks right where they should have been on the north side of the driveway, which showed that the church did not own part of the neighbors house. The foundation blocks were left in place for future reference.

[Kev Williams]

The city I live in, back in the '40's my grandfather (dad's dad) owned a whole bunch of land, a big chunk of which was about 2 city blocks long, and whoever surveyed that property was drunk, plain and simple. Picture 5 houses on 1/3 acres equally spaced. From east to west lived some nice folks, my dad's sister & husband, our house, my dad's brother & wife, and my grandparents. The house numbers in east to west order were 2364, 2368, 2374, 2498-?- and 2508... ?? So, the address numbers of hese homes increase by 4, 6, 6, 124, and 10... 124? That's over a city block! To add to the nonsense, about 20 years ago a doctors office complex was built just east of the 2364-5th house, and it's access street is numbered 2400 West, based on newer surveys. So from this street the house numbers go BACKWARDS until my uncles 2498 address... To this day they're still fixing the address numbers along those 2 blocks. AND the property lines of those 5 homes.

And don't get me started on fences :(

This was my last house, the day I moved in in 1982,
457104

-and, as we were prepping to sell it in 2006, 24 years later...
457105
--notice the yellow arrows, they point to a PERMANENT fence, put up by the homeowners above, before I ever moved in. It's actually a chainlink fence, but it's 'permanent' based of the fact the concrete footing holding it up extends 40" above the ground, 48" below ground and is 10" wide. The footing itself makes it 'permanent' even without the chainlink...

The problem? The fence is at a minimum, 6' within their property line, and that distance only gets larger as the fence follows the flat ground closer to their home. Before we moved we were about to sue to take the land on our side of the fence thru adverse possession. Why? Because the neighbors above (not the original owners) thought that because part of the land on the other side of the fence was theirs, they could use that land as their #%$#*@& garbage dump! They'd throw lawn clippings and trimmed tree branches over the fence regularly! Look at that hill-- guess where all that crap ended up? We had words many times over than nonsense. But we sold the house before it got to court...

[Bill Dufour]

Who did the survey? Was it just the contractor with a tape measure and a GPS? Or was it a real surveyor who has a legal responsibility to be accurate.
Bill D

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

At least in this area few surveys are recorded. The original survey plats are. Anything after that is not. So if I need part of my property surveyed, there is nothing filed except the metes and bounds description in the deed. Deeds often have errors and don't match the corners placed in the ground. At least in my state, certain staked corners and monuments take precedent over deed descriptions. While your deed may say 102 ft, the actual distance between markers might be a few feet off that figure. The real lovely is where property has been in the same family for generations and the deed says 3.5 rods. That could be anything from 48 feet to 56 feet. So the corner stakes if any, actually control. It is even worse when streams change course, the old black oak is long dead and rotted away, etc. One of my corners is a rock. A monstrous huge boulder. At some point in history, somebody drilled a hole in the rock and placed a pin and poured melted lead in the hole around the pin to hold it in place. Considering the distance from any barns or houses, that person must have been pretty determined to carry a lead pot into the woods to melt some lead.

[Anuj Prateek]

We recently had survey done (BC, Canada).

Surveyor told us that he measured (word used was tied) the property by taking reference from few public markers and the sole marker on property.

One marker was on edge of neighbors driveway and they were surprised. Since neighbors were surprised, we asked what if there is an error? He said that measurements can be repeated within a centimeter or so. And, all steps taken to arrive at markers are filed with city. Neighbors measured their property (by themselves) and everything turned good.

Given survey is a legal thing, if you have doubts dispute early. I would imagine it will become painful as time passes.

[lowell holmes]

Don't they drive metal corner stakes when a survey is made? you might find them with a metal detector.

[Anuj Prateek]

Don't they drive metal corner stakes when a survey is made? you might find them with a metal detector.


With new survey they did.

Original markers were all lost but one.

[Thomas McCurnin]

the metes and bounds description in a deed are not necessarily the actual lines of the property.

I disagree. You own the property only which is described in legal filed deed, no more, no less. Unless the description is based on a changing natural feature (like a river), the metes and bounds description is accurate, and if not, one has to go to court to change the legal description.

[Erik Loza]

OK gang, thanks to everyone for their input. Cannot say I know any more today than when I made the post but here are the pics of what I’m seeing. The part which still perplexes me is that if you line up the nail and the curb, the nail appears to be well within the imaginary line of what my driveway “ought” to be. That driveway threshhold is original city construction, probably from the 1940’s. The neighbors’ construction is not really going to affect our common fence but maybe I will call for my own survey at some point. 🤷

Erik

[Bruce Wrenn]

Don't they drive metal corner stakes when a survey is made? you might find them with a metal detector.


Utility companies set poles and transformers EXACTLY on property corners, thus wiping out any property irons at that corner. This way they don't have to get permission to run services to either property. A few years back, after building a house, I found out that I didn't even own our front lot, as it belonged to church next door. Seems surveyor and lawyer made a SMALL, TWO ACRE error. Graveyard at church was on next over land owner's property, which it had been since 1952. We all got together and signed a boundry line agreement, including a survey, with each getting what we had been using. Lawyer and original surveyor paid all the costs associated with this process. Could have been tied up in court, with damages awarded to all parties. Remember, I had built a house on this lot. They got off CHEAP!

[Alex Zeller]

To me that looks like just a marker used to triangulate the property marker. If I had to guess the ribbon on it is to make it easy to locate to remove when they are done. I would call up the company though and ask them since that's free and you could find out that there's nothing to worry about. It's possible they could be returning so they left it in place. I wouldn't pay for a survey unless you really want one or there's a question/ issue with where the line is.

[Kev Williams]

I find the name of the surveying company, B&S, a bit ironic ;)

[Erik Loza]

The more I think about it, the more I think that nail is not the actual survey marker. The ‘neighbs have thick vegetation all the way up to the curb on their side of the fence while our side is just decomposed granite. Possibly the surveyors just couldn’t find a clear area to reference off, so stepped over to our side. Thanks again to all for your insight.

Erik

[Harry Hall]

I worked for several Surveyors here in Florida for 20 years (my father was a Surveyor registered in two states for 50yrs) . We most certainly would NOT use that as a temporary marker (possibly this is a permanent offset marker). this looks like the typical 5/8" x 24" inch rebar with plastic Cap, in Florida you must imprint your license # on these. To resolve this simply ask to look at the copy of the survey, your neighbor surely will have one. The "offset" will be clearly marked with a bearing a distance to the actual boundary .
hth
Ed

[Howard Garner]

Utility companies set poles and transformers EXACTLY on property corners, thus wiping out any property irons at that corner. This way they don't have to get permission to run services to either property. A few years back, after building a house, I found out that I didn't even own our front lot, as it belonged to church next door. Seems surveyor and lawyer made a SMALL, TWO ACRE error. Graveyard at church was on next over land owner's property, which it had been since 1952. We all got together and signed a boundry line agreement, including a survey, with each getting what we had been using. Lawyer and original surveyor paid all the costs associated with this process. Could have been tied up in court, with damages awarded to all parties. Remember, I had built a house on this lot. They got off CHEAP!


Until the pole needs replacing. Then it gets replaced to the side. Mine was.
Howard Garner

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

We most certainly would NOT use that as a temporary marker (possibly this is a permanent offset marker). this looks like the typical 5/8" x 24" inch rebar with plastic Cap, in Florida you must imprint your license # on these. To resolve this simply ask to look at the copy of the survey, your neighbor surely will have one. The "offset" will be clearly marked with a bearing a distance to the actual boundary .
Ed

Agreed! The survey company I worked for would NOT use that as a temporary marker. Also, our field crew would often blaze through shrubbery to mark a true corner unless it was obvious $$ landscaping. On the rare times they could not get to the true corner location, they would set a permanent marker that clearly indicated it was X amount from the true corner on the stake, as well as clearly note it on the survey.

Contact that survey company and ask for a copy. Most often, they can email you a pdf without a charge.