Attaching bed rails to posts with thread inserts

[Tom Wall]

I'm building a king size bed frame, out of white oak, for the first time and thinking about attaching the rails to the posts using 3/8" thread inserts. The rails are 1 1/4" x 8" and the post are 3 pieces of 1 1/4" glued together thus 3 3/4" square. I was going to rout out the inside edge of the posts a 1 1/4" x 8" cutout. This is not a mortise but a cutout so the inside face of the posts and rails are flush. I was then going to attach them with inserts installed in the posts and then running the bolts through the face of the rails.
I didn't want to use bed bolts because I didn't want any bolt heads showing. Do you think the bolts/inserts will pull the rail into the posts together snug enough ? Also, since the posts have 2 vertical glue lines I prefer they aren't on the front side. Thus the inserts would have to be installed on the edges of the 1 1/4" oak that make up the posts. Will the inserts hold just as well in an edge or do they need to be installed in the face ? Thanks for any suggestions.

[roger wiegand]

Beds need to take lots of racking force, once I discovered traditional M&T with bedbolts I never looked back. My earlier beds with various sorts of allegedly wonderful hardware wiggle, and some with screw-in fasteners failed during stress testing by jumping children. All the ones made with bedbolts are rock solid, up to 30 years later.

I'd look at your design, depending on the style perhaps you could hide the bolt heads under a false through tenon or similar? Or a flush plug held in place with a magnet? You don't need to get to them very often.

[Charlie Jones]

I built three beds this year. One was bunk beds. I used mortise and tenon on them. The other two were kings. I used the metal bed rail plates with hooks that are mortised into post and the end of the rails. I used three 3 inch screws to secure each end. They make a tight connection that is very strong. They would work just as well on the edge of the post. They can be taken apart by knocking the rail up. They are not visible until the rails are removed.

[Charlie Jones]

5" x 5/8" Bed Rail Fasteners Ylo Zinc 1/8" Mth Platte River Pkg 0f 4 Ea 130607 from Amazon. Rockler has them to.

[Richard Coers]

I would not be a fan of threaded inserts for that application.

[Tom Wall]

Thanks for all the replies


Beds need to take lots of racking force, once I discovered traditional M&T with bedbolts I never looked back. My earlier beds with various sorts of allegedly wonderful hardware wiggle, and some with screw-in fasteners failed during stress testing by jumping children. All the ones made with bedbolts are rock solid, up to 30 years later.

I'd look at your design, depending on the style perhaps you could hide the bolt heads under a false through tenon or similar? Or a flush plug held in place with a magnet? You don't need to get to them very often.

Have you ever used or seen concealed bed bolts, Amish bed bolt as an example, where I wouldn't have to drill a hole all the way through the post and having the bolt exposed ( I could hide it as you suggested). I'm assuming the advantage of a bed bolt is that it pulls the rail into the post?

[roger wiegand]

Have you ever used or seen concealed bed bolts, Amish bed bolt as an example, where I wouldn't have to drill a hole all the way through the post and having the bolt exposed ( I could hide it as you suggested). I'm assuming the advantage of a bed bolt is that it pulls the rail into the post?

No idea what an Amish bed bolt is-- Google came up empty for me. The ones I use are like this: https://www.rockler.com/3-8-diameter-bed-bolt?country=US&sid=V91040&promo=shopping&gclid=Cj0KCQjwvr6EBhDOARIsAPpqUPFdhe7q1kDfyCAzwUY5 Xwv_81r70zSv2vK0F1GXKl1v1zDnO4YXQwAaAmDSEALw_wcB with the nut captured in the rail and a hole that penetrates the post to draw the M&T tight. I've had bad luck overall with threaded inserts (even ones that are epoxied in) and really wouldn't use them where there are structural stresses. The strength (and ability to retighten whenever needed) of a through bolt with even a short tenon is hard to beat.

Sorry, I don't know a great way to accomplish what you want. Perhaps really high quality hanger hardware will do OK for you. I don't do any sleek modern stuff, so there's always been a way to add a good looking bolt cover, either a cast brass/bronze one or a wooden one I've made.

[Bruce Walton]

456988 I found this from a Google search for hidden bed bolt. There were other options, too.

[Aaron Liebling]

I'm in the same boat (bed?), Tom. Building a new modern king bed at my wife's request and would like to use bed bolts, but don't want anything exposed externally. I've been planning on using bed rail brackets. Our old king sleigh bed had them and has survive for 25+ years. That said, I'm much prefer mortise and tenon with bed bolts or the like.

[Jim Dwight]

I have 4 beds in my house I built and one of my kids has two, the other has three. There is only one of these beds that does not have the bed rail fasteners I like, after trying several options including bolts as you describe. I wish I could post a link but I can't get this computer to do that with the touchpad. Rockler calls the something like "heavy duty wrought steel bed rail fastners". They are totally hidden when the bed is assembled. You have to mortise the headboard, footboard, and the ends of the rails for the fasteners but it is pretty easy once you make a router jig to do most of the cutting. Especially on the rails use a long screw (at least 2 inch) and they hold fine. No cross dowel or other measures are necessary. The bed assembles easily with them and the only issue taking them down is you may need a mallet to get them unstuck.

The bed with a different joint is a crib where I made the mistake of following a Wood plan. It was a terrible headache. Never again. Bolts into cross dowels work but are just terrible to get aligned.

I strongly recommend you use these bed rail fasteners. You will be happy you did.

[Tom Wall]

No idea what an Amish bed bolt is-- Google came up empty for me. The ones I use are like this: https://www.rockler.com/3-8-diameter-bed-bolt?country=US&sid=V91040&promo=shopping&gclid=Cj0KCQjwvr6EBhDOARIsAPpqUPFdhe7q1kDfyCAzwUY5 Xwv_81r70zSv2vK0F1GXKl1v1zDnO4YXQwAaAmDSEALw_wcB with the nut captured in the rail and a hole that penetrates the post to draw the M&T tight. I've had bad luck overall with threaded inserts (even ones that are epoxied in) and really wouldn't use them where there are structural stresses. The strength (and ability to retighten whenever needed) of a through bolt with even a short tenon is hard to beat.

Sorry, I don't know a great way to accomplish what you want. Perhaps really high quality hanger hardware will do OK for you. I don't do any sleek modern stuff, so there's always been a way to add a good looking bolt cover, either a cast brass/bronze one or a wooden one I've made.

Similar to these:https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/920428318/sets-of-2-8-bunk-bed-m8-bolts?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=bed+bolts&ref=sr_gallery-1-30&from_market_listing_grid_organic=1

But the only way I can think I could make it work is to cut the mortise & tenon and then cut hole for bed bolt on inside face of bed rail. Then cut a horizontal slot, width of bolt shaft, on the inside face of the post and square off cutout. Slide the bolt in the horizontal shaft where the non-bolt end fits in the squared off cutout in the post. Tap the mortised post onto the tenon, in the rail, with the bolt in place. Then tighten the nut and washer. The bolts you linked would probably work this way too. Maybe I'm making it more complicated than need be.

[Tom Wall]

I'm in the same boat (bed?), Tom. Building a new modern king bed at my wife's request and would like to use bed bolts, but don't want anything exposed externally. I've been planning on using bed rail brackets. Our old king sleigh bed had them and has survive for 25+ years. That said, I'm much prefer mortise and tenon with bed bolts or the like.


I was leaning away from the bed rail fasteners because I've heard over time they loosen up some. I have no experience, myself, with this though. The mortise & tenon and then snugging them together with a bed bolt seems pretty solid though.

[Mel Fulks]

I suggest using bed bolts and making small covers for the heads from the same wood. Many years from now the bolt up beds will be saved
when other beds are thrown out.

[Ty wayne]

I used these and they’ve been great. They were mentioned above but he couldn’t get the link to copy in. I built my king bed over a year ago and it has held up great. I’m very much a beginner and I’ve had zero issues.

https://www.rockler.com/heavy-duty-wrought-steel-bed-rail-fasteners-4-pack-select-size

457002 457003

[Tom Wall]

I think I'm going with the concealed bed bolts with a mortise & tenon joint. Anyone have any thoughts on: 1) a single tenon ( 5" tall x 3/4" wide x 1" long) with the bolt running through the center of it or 2) 2 tenons stacked (2" tall x 3/4" wide x 1" long with a 2" space between them). The bolt would run through the space between the tenons. Bed rail is 8" x 1 1/4"

[Mark Rainey]

I think I'm going with the concealed bed bolts with a mortise & tenon joint. Anyone have any thoughts on: 1) a single tenon ( 5" tall x 3/4" wide x 1" long) with the bolt running through the center of it or 2) 2 tenons stacked (2" tall x 3/4" wide x 1" long with a 2" space between them). The bolt would run through the space between the tenons. Bed rail is 8" x 1 1/4"

Single tenon. You need all the strength you can get with a king size bed. That's what Ken Rodel uses in his Fine Woodworking bed video.

[Tom Wall]

Single tenon. You need all the strength you can get with a king size bed. That's what Ken Rodel uses in his Fine Woodworking bed video.

Thanks for the reply. Does the tenon dimensions seem appropriate? No issues drilling a hole through it for the bed bolt?

[Mark Rainey]

Thanks for the reply. Does the tenon dimensions seem appropriate? No issues drilling a hole through it for the bed bolt?

Interestingly, Kevin Rodel uses a stub tenon only 1/2 inch long ( and a 1/2 thick ) for the rail joints using bed bolts. His rails are for a queen bed, they are 7 inches and he uses a 6 inch stub tenon. If your rails are 8 inches, you could easily use a 6 inch tenon. Any reasons that he used 1/2 stub tenons for the rails? The joint relies on the bed bolt to pull it tight so you do not need any real tenon length ( because it is not a glue joint )?

I covered my bed bolt with medallions

457057

[Jim Dwight]

The bed rail fasteners in the queen size bed my son and his wife sleep on is more than 20 years old and the bed has been moved several times. It is still solid. My late wife and I slept on it about 20 years and my son and his wife have used it daily 7 or 8 years now. It is made of oak. If you make a good snug mortise for the plates and use 2 inch or longer screws I am pretty sure you will have no issues. I think the main issue is if you use too short a screw into the end grain of the rail. Those screws in particular have to be long because the holding power of the end grain is not great. 3 inch would be good and since the rail is so long there is no reason to use a shorter screw. In the headboard and end board you probably cannot use a 3 inch, I couldn't. In one design I have made three times now (including my son's), the legs are 3 inch so you can use a 2.5 inch screw. Another design I've made twice has only 1 3/4 inch material in the legs so you are limited to about a 1 1/2 inch screw. Those beds are doubles but have held up fine with couples in them occasionally. I sleep on one of these beds when I visit them. It is very solid.

I am not saying this is the only joint that will work. Many will work. But these fasteners are the easiest to use I have found that make a good solid bed. I have no interest in making a bed that will not hold up. The other advantage is they do not show when the bed is assembled.

[Wes Grass]

I was thinking about the hidden bed bolts as pictured above. Or flip the common type around. And I 'thought' Benchcrafted had something like that for their bench kits. But they're the conventional exposed style using a barrel nut.

My personal concern would be with using them with the rails flush with the inside of the post. The notch and pocket for the screw more or less forces you into putting the thread insert 5/8" from the face of the post. Seems kind of close to me. If the rail were set in (out actually, I guess) you'd have more meat there for the insert.

[Tom Wall]

I was thinking about the hidden bed bolts as pictured above. Or flip the common type around. And I 'thought' Benchcrafted had something like that for their bench kits. But they're the conventional exposed style using a barrel nut.

My personal concern would be with using them with the rails flush with the inside of the post. The notch and pocket for the screw more or less forces you into putting the thread insert 5/8" from the face of the post. Seems kind of close to me. If the rail were set in (out actually, I guess) you'd have more meat there for the insert.

Agree. I'm going with all bed bolts now. and going to mortise/tenon all rails and position them in the center of the 3 3/4" square posts. The headboard bed bolts will pass all the way through the posts, because I don't care if a bolt is exposed on the back of the headboard. The 2 footboard bed bolts will be concealed. If I drill (7/16 hole) it in the center of the tenon, for the bolt, I think I'll have plenty of wood on either side of the bolt.

[Mark Rainey]

If I drill (7/16 hole) it in the center of the tenon, for the bolt, I think I'll have plenty of wood on either side of the bolt.

You should be fine. I note Roger also mentioned a stub tenon. Less chance for break out of the bolt.

[Dan Rude]

For more information check out the Late Charles Neil on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJC0Mz1B6aM
Dan

[Tom Wall]

You should be fine. I note Roger also mentioned a stub tenon. Less chance for break out of the bolt.


These are the bed bolts I bought. Bed bolts (https://www.rockler.com/heavy-duty-cross-dowel-and-bolt-8-pack). But now I'm wondering with the size of the rail (8" x 1 1/4" x 82"), whether I should use 2 bed bolts per connection. Or, would 1 bed bolt be sufficient ? Would the 2 bolts weaken the tenon? I was planning on a stub tenon ( 3/4" thick x 5 1/2" width and length around 1 1/4"). Does that seem too long for a stub tenon ?

[Jim Barstow]

I've made a bunch of queen sized beds. I used the hook/plate hardware on the first one and never used it again. (Those beds rack as you move them around and can squeak with "vigorous bouncing".) I now use tenons on the ends of the rails about 1/2" long and the full width of the bed rail (minus a small shoulder). The stub tenon serves to make sure the holes in the leg and rail are registered and makes assembly of the bed easier. I clamp the bed together then drill holes for 2 bed bolts for each rail connection. I either leave the heads exposed or hide them in a counterbore covered with the same wood as the leg. These beds could be dropped out a 2 story window and not rack. They do not squeak regardless of how much vigorous bouncing they are subject to.

[Mark Rainey]

These are the bed bolts I bought. Bed bolts (https://www.rockler.com/heavy-duty-cross-dowel-and-bolt-8-pack). But now I'm wondering with the size of the rail (8" x 1 1/4" x 82"), whether I should use 2 bed bolts per connection. Or, would 1 bed bolt be sufficient ? Would the 2 bolts weaken the tenon? I was planning on a stub tenon ( 3/4" thick x 5 1/2" width and length around 1 1/4"). Does that seem too long for a stub tenon ?
Stub tenon should be 1/2 to 3/4 inches. No need for longer - this is not a glue dependent joint. One bed bolt only fir each post. And only 4 bed bolts needed - 6 inches would be nice.

[Tom Wall]

Stub tenon should be 1/2 to 3/4 inches. No need for longer - this is not a glue dependent joint. One bed bolt only fir each post. And only 4 bed bolts needed - 6 inches would be nice.

Thanks for your advice, appreciate it.

[Mel Fulks]

Minutiae brings lots of opinions! When I was a kid I worked for an old guy who was still mad about the Great Depression....the one with no
prescription pills. He insisted bed rail stub tenons be 1and 1/8. “Most go shorter, but MY way makes it easier to put the bed together if you
are working alone”.

[Cliff Polubinsky]

I suggest using bed bolts and making small covers for the heads from the same wood. Many years from now the bolt up beds will be saved
when other beds are thrown out.

I used an idea I saw from an article where the covers for the bolts were made to look like the ends of through tenons. They fit into a mortise a little deeper than the bolt head and a rare earth magnet held the plug to the bolt head.

Cliff

[Ed Aumiller]

When I built my daughters bed.. bought "bed bolts"... the threads were not standard... if someone took it apart to move it and lost the nut, they were in deep trouble...

Returned the "bed bolts" and used 3/8" x 7" standard galvanized bolts with a flat washer on each end...
2 advantages:...
first is if a nut is lost, it is easily replaced..
second is that you can use any standard socket to install them.. do not need a special wrench..

I used the brass covers on the holes...