Which tool sharpening system?

[Eric Arnsdorff]

I'm interested in a tool sharpening system that is efficient and provides repeatable sharp edges. It is for plane iron blades, chisels and wood turning tools.
As a bonus it would be great if it were also useful for knife and scissor sharpening but that is secondary.

I'm more than willing to spend the money to get the right one. I'm not sure what that is.

Currently I have the wolverine jigs for an 8" grinder. It is okay but not efficient and at least for me repeatability and ease of use are not its strengths.
I also have an assortment of japanese water stones as well as diamond stones and leather strops with polishing compound. I have an old Veritas plane and chisel sharpening jig.

I'm not good at sharpening by hand with any of these. I have gotten the best results for chisels and plane irons using the water stones. But that is a slow, messy and time consuming process. I really want to do woodworking and not spend great deals of time and space sharpening.

The units I've seen are the following

Tormek and it's clones including the Jet, Rikon and Wen wet wheels with accessories.
Sorby Proedge
Workshop WS300
Kodiak Sharpening System


456848

I'm not sure of which direction to go. I can upgrade my grinder and add better wheels and fixtures, buy a sharpening system, add to what I have to achieve it, etc. Maybe there's a great video (I've youtubed and such but never found something that improved my sharpening skills much).

I really want an efficient repeatable means to sharpen my tools. Your experience and advice on this is very much needed.

[Thomas Wilson]

I am like you in desiring repeatable sharp edges. For me, the answer for chisels and plane blades is a honing guide and water stones. I have most of the available honing guides and prefer the Lie-Nielsen one. Lathe gouges and carving tools require something different. I sharpen carving gouges freehand on diamond stones. I sharpen lathe tools free hand on the grinder with stock tool rest. I would like to try your Wolverine guide if you would part with it.

[Clark Hussey]

I just got the the Workshop WS 3000. Very happy with it so far.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Eric, you're only likely to need a grinder after you've worn down an initial primary bevel to the point where your secondary (or tertiary) bevels are taking too big a bite to reach the wire edge. That may take a while. I didn't need my Tormek until after hundreds of hours of using edge tools. I still use it rarely, and only after many sharpening/honing cycles. I use it more for kitchen knives than for chisels and plane irons.

In the meantime, brace yourself. You're about to hear 29 distinct perfect sharpening systems/methods from 29 experts who will each swear by their systems.

Since you call for a fast system, I think you have room to improve your use of the waterstones. I find them fast and efficient, once you get the process down. Folks here will not be surprised to hear me once again sing the praises of David Charlesworth's excellent method. You can pick up his DVD through him directly or from Lie-Nielsen. Yes, you need to study the method. Yes, you need to practice the method. That startup time will be an investment. But if you want it to work, you can soon reach a level of skill where you can get back to a blazingly sharp working edge in a five-minute break from the work. Yes, you have to clean up at the end of the session, but all it takes is a sink and a sponge.

I am frequently perplexed that Charlesworth's method doesn't get the love here at the Creek. It turned me from a hopeless beginner into a skilled sharpener.

[Doug Garson]

I don't have turning tools but for chisels and plane irons I use the Worksharp 3000. Hard to beat the convenience and repeatability. Other methods might give marginally better results but I get a mirror finish and I've also rescued a few badly damaged chisels with it. Previously I was using diamond stones and a General Tools sharpening jig. I struggled to align the tool in the jig to get square edge. With the Worksharp, I can pull it out, sharpen a chisel and put it away in a few minutes with excellent results. I bought it used from a guy who was switching to freehand sharpening, something I wouldn't even try.

[Curt Putnam]

I started put with a WS3000 and then moved to waterstones and honing guides when I got quality chisels. I strongly suggest that you look at Derek Cohen's setup - www.InTheWoodshop.com (http://www.InTheWoodshop.com). Get a decent set of waterstones, a honing guide, and a grinder and you are in business.

You will want to end your process with either a stone or strop with a grit of 1 micron or less.

[Andrew Hughes]

I use the Tormek plus Shapton pro stones with side sharpening method. I also have a sharp skate guide that I use with my finest Japanese chisels.
Good Luck

[johnny means]

I've got a Tormek 2000 that has served me well for years. It's just been retired in favor of the Veritas mk ii. It's just so much faster and easier to set up. I'm sure the abrasives will prove to be more expensive in the absolute sense, but my time is getting to be more precious to me.

[Warren Wilson]

I have been using the Veritas Mk II system (from Lee Valley). I find it is quick and easy to pull out, set up and use to tune up my chisels and plane irons — it is repeatable and fast, though my personal poor performance on hand sharpening introduces significant bias in my assessment.

[Cary Falk]

i use the Worksharp for chisels and carving tools. I have a bench grinder for turning tools. I don't use hand planes(they are evil).:D

[William Hodge]

OP, the one piece of advice I have for you is to skip any micro bevel, or whatever it's called. Just make an edge, and use it.

I use 200 DMT and 800, 1200, and 6000 grit water stones, free hand. If I hit sand, I have a 1750 rpm white grinding wheel, free hand. I save the old DMT diamond stones for flattening water stones. I notice if an edge is getting out of square and spend some extra time on the high side.

Putting a new edge on a blade takes about three minutes.

To get the angle free hand, rock the blade on the stone to feel the bevel hit flat. It only matters on the coarse stone. On the fine stones, look at the face of the edge once in a while to see what's being cleaned up, and adjust.

[Mike Kreinhop]

Finally, a topic for which there is only one universally accepted answer. :p

Like Bob Jones, I am a David Charlesworth convert, but only after having spent a LOT of time and money on other solutions. I wish I had attended David's Tool Tuning course before I began my sharpening journey, but I don't dwell on the past. A week of one-on-one training with David was money well spent.

My solution is the Tormek T8 for establishing the primary bevel on my bench chisels and plane irons. I use the Lie-Nielsen honing guide and a set of King water stones for the second and third bevels. I never picked up the free-hand method, and being satisfied with the consistency and ease of setup with the honing guide, I have no desire to go free-hand.

[Ron Citerone]

Honing guide and water stones for chisels and plane irons. Turning gouges and carving tools I defer to others.

[Derek Cohen]

Eric

Some power tool users who seek to use some hand tools, such as chisels and a block plane, continue to think about power tools, and only consider power sharpening. If this is you, then consider a Worksharp or Tormek. You will get sharp-ish hand tools, but nothing to rave about.

For genuinely sharp hand plane and chisel blades, you need to go to hand sharpening. There is a choice of honing guide or freehand. I suggest that you look at the new Veritas side clamp honing guide. It is inexpensive and versatile. With regards sharpening media, get a 400 grit for restoring a primary bevel and, for sharpening, a 1000 grit diamond stone, and a 6000 grit Sigma. Learn to use these. Honing guides excel at secondary bevels. Youtube is your friend for this very basic operation.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jacob Mac]

Finally, a topic for which there is only one universally accepted answer. :p

Like Bob Jones, I am a David Charlesworth convert, but only after having spent a LOT of time and money on other solutions. I wish I had attended David's Tool Tuning course before I began my sharpening journey, but I don't dwell on the past. A week of one-on-one training with David was money well spent.

My solution is the Tormek T8 for establishing the primary bevel on my bench chisels and plane irons. I use the Lie-Nielsen honing guide and a set of King water stones for the second and third bevels. I never picked up the free-hand method, and being satisfied with the consistency and ease of setup with the honing guide, I have no desire to go free-hand.


This is what I do as well. It works well enough. I like this approach because the level of skill required to get sharp tools is low. So I can spend more time working on other aspects of woodworking.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Rikon grinder wheels with a Veritas tool rest jig and a home made angle jig(s) like Derek in Perth made for setting the tool rest at repeatable angles. Thanks to Derek.

[andrew whicker]

Tormek + stones and Lee Valley guide.

Stones only can be very painful if you have a chip or gouge that needs removing.

[Jim Dwight]

I use a worksharp 3000 after trying manual sharpening and a powered water stone. The worksharp works better. I use it on chisels, plane irons, knives, jointer knives ad planner blades. They sell a knives and scissors add on I have and I think it's worthwhile but there is also a separate device for them. I have not used it but mine came with slotted wheels and abrassive discs for sharpening turning tools on the under side of the glass disc. I got extra fine abrassives for mine but I don't use them. The stock abrasives put a good edge on, no need to go finer IMHO. Sharpening is a bit like sanding to me (and even more with a worksharp) I do it because I have to and I want to do it as quickly as possible but still get a good result. The Worksharp meets that need.

[Prashun Patel]

If you are not averse to spending money then for me what has worked is having a couple systems to switch between:

Worksharp with lapidary diamond plates: re establishing bevels, draw knives
8" CBN with wolverine + varigrind: turning tools. Full stop.
Shapton waterstones 1000-8000: honing flat blades.

Being facile with all gives you options. I still take my drawknives or plane blades occasionally to the grinder.

I think anyone who says ONE way is the best hasn't mastered all of the different ways. They each have their place.

[Eric Arnsdorff]

Thanks for the input all!

I was a bit surprised so many agree on water stones. I have a very nice set of stones and I have been able to get my chisels and plane irons the sharpest with it.

It sounds like I'll upgrade my honing guide as well.

The worksharp 3000 got honorable mention a few times which also surprised me a bit. I have one of there smaller units for knife sharpening. I was considering upgrading my grinder and wheels. I'll take a closer look between the worksharp and my grinder upgrade to see which way to go.

I infer (ok some comments are more direct than inferences) that I would be best served by devoting more time to learning as well as making my setup quick and easy to use. I wasn't familiar with David Charlesworth but I'll see what I can learn from him.

I was surprised the Tormek didn't get more mentions. I'm a little relieved as well as it appears it can get very costly - not just the base unit but the add ons as well.

I wasn't familiar with the Shapton stones. I may order one to see if how it does. It would be nice to minimize the messiness associated with the water stones.

I'm guessing for turning tools I may get more feedback in the turning section. This is why I'm thinking a grinder upgrade may serve me best and create a better setup for sharpening my lathe tools.

Thanks all!

[David M Peters]

I do woodturning and use hand tools and haven't found much overlap between the two disciplines. I had a Tormek T-7 which I thought would unite the two worlds but it didn't do that great of a job on either. So for me:

Woodturning - 1HP Rikon with 80/300 CBN wheels. I happen to use the Tormek gouge jig but that's not an important distinction.
Hand tools - a motley crew of diamond plates (low grits) and a Shapton ceramic Kuromaku 8000 grit stone. Strop to finish if I'm feeling fancy. I have a Veritas Mk II but rarely use it. Any bevel resets I'll do on the bench grinder.

Eric - my advise for you would be to stick with your grinder + wolverine for woodturning - it's not going to get much better than that. With CBN wheels you don't have to worry about the diameter changing but that's a fairly small care, I think. The ceramic stones, being "spritz and go", seem to strike a good balance between low messiness and effectiveness.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I use a Tormek for the wife’s turning tools and to grind an edge on planes and chisels. I use water stones to hone the edge on the straight blades and polish the backs.

[johnny means]

I'd like to hear the scientific reasoning behind the idea that only hand sharpening creates a truly sharp edge.

[Derek Cohen]

I'd like to hear the scientific reasoning behind the idea that only hand sharpening creates a truly sharp edge.

Johnny, it is quite simple.

Substitute “smooth” for “ sharp”. Then the smoother the bevel edge, the sharper the blade. Okay?

So, what gets the bevel edge smoothest? Obviously, the higher the grit the smoother the finish. While there is a law of diminishing returns here, anything around 15000 grit is going to be plenty smooth.

Last bit: in addition to smooth, you want “flat”. Flat in this context means with minimal serrations.

A coarse sharpening medium, such as 1000 grit, leaves a rougher edge with serrations. Machine sharpening, such as a standard Tormek, ends with 1000 grit (when the surface is regraded). This is the grit at which hand sharpening on waterstones is just beginning! Even if you have a Tormek with a series of CBN wheels increasing in grit level, it would be a pain in the watsit to use. Too inefficient to be practical. Efficient for me means a complete re-sharpening of a blade in under 30 seconds.

There are few, if any, machines which allow high level - and efficient - sharpening. In my opinion, the quickest and sharpest edge comes from a hollow ground blade - which is self-jigging for free hand holding, as well as reducing the amount of steel to hone - and run on a series of waterstones.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Alex Zeller]

I use a Tormek clone. It's not going to shape tools, just restore the edge. I got it because I was primarily into turning. Turning is in it's own category simply because you are always touching up the edge of a tool. I have a 600 grit diamond wheel on my clone that provides a good edge.

I have blocks of wood that are for setting up the jigs for each tool. For example for my bowl gouge the block has a hole drilled to a specific depth. I slide the Tormek gouge jig onto the gouge then the gouge into the hole in the block. I slide the jig so it's touching the block and now the gouge is at the right depth. The block has a second hole going all the way through it. That's for getting the rest (bar) the correct distance from the wheel. Slide the block on, and then slide the rest so the block is touching the wheel. Written on the block are some numbers that relate to settings on the jig. With this setup I can repeatedly touch up the edge in less than a minute and get back to turning.

I can't help much with other tools as I only have a few and don't do them very often. So I use the clone. Water stones may work great but I would never be able to do much more than touch up an edge. I would want something that could remove nicks from blades. For that even the Tormek would be too slow IMO. A slow speed grinder and CBN wheel with a jig would be my best advice.

[Tim Andrews]

One note about the Veritas side clamp guide; it doesn’t work well with all chisels. I think it depends on the edge profile, and probably works best with better made chisels where the sides aren’t too squared off. I’ve used mine for a couple of weeks with my Marples chisels and they don’t lay consistently flat in the guide, so one edge is lower than the other leading to skewed bevels. I can eventually get it flat by trial and error, but the amount of time it was taking led me down the path of free hand sharpening for my secondary bevels.

I was going to return mine, but decided to keep it because I’m ordering a full set of Veritas PM-V11 bench chisels once they are back in stock.

[Eric Arnsdorff]

Tom I did just order the new Veritas side clamp guide. I hope it performs ok with my plane irons. I have lower end chisels. I am looking to buy a couple of the Veritas chisels as well.

I ordered a 180 grit CBN wheel (3/4” hole) from Woodturners Wonders and received it today. My grinder is a 2 hp 20 mm arbor so I’m taking the wheel to have it bored out tomorrow by a friend. Additionally, Woodcraft had the 1/2 hp Rikon grinder on sale and I bought it. I plan to mount the 2 together so I can grind my soft steel with it as well (lawn mower blades, etc). I’m going to add a honing wheel as well.

I have gotten my water stones out and have a container to keep them in water to save the time for that. I’m going to see how my plane irons and chisels go with them and if it’s too messy/painful I’ll try my Diamond stones and strop. If I can make low hassle sharp edges with this setup then I’m done. I can evaluate if a ceramic stone may help later.. I’m putting in the extra (painful) time now for improved sharpening and less hassle later (sharpening is always painful to me :-).

One further note on hand sharpening that I see mentioned... I think this is a little like an artist telling me to just draw it like he/she can. I could follow every stroke and still not remotely come close to making art. I lack the motor skills to do such things. I would love to have such skills but that just isn’t going to happen. I’ve tried freehand since being a young boy with my hunting knives. I only occasionally accidentally end up with a sharp blade freehand. I need either someone who can do that or I have to rely on equipment. I’m stuck with relying on equipment.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I use the Veritas Mk II honing guide with a combination of diamond (extra coarse) and Norton water stones (1000, 4000, 8000). Was never particularly satisfied with the edges until I learned about the Unicorn Method here on the Creek. It has been a life-changing (okay, edge changing) discovery. Google David Weaver Unicorn sharpening method and visit Winston Chang’s website. You’ll be glad you did.

[Kevin Adams]

I have found the same thing with my new Veritas side clamp guide while sharpening the blades for my Stanley 48. The LN with narrow jaws works much better in that instance.

Kevin

[roger wiegand]

I've tried many systems, both powered and not over the decades. At this point none have worked better of faster for me than the Lee Valley MkII jig and a set of water stones recommended and sold to me by Lie Neilsen at one of their traveling events. The coarse stones are pretty quick at removing metal, the fine ones leave a mirror polish and perfect edge. It's been years since I've needed to take a plane or chisel blade to a grinding wheel. I don't find any measurable difference in the time it takes to sharpen a flat bevel than a hollow ground one on the water stones. 2-3 strokes on the secondary bevel with the finest stone refreshes the edge nicely; after 5-10 rounds of that I go back to re-shape the primary bevel using the medium and finest stones. I don't keep the stones wet, just spritz them prior to use per the lesson the fellow from L-N gave me. Works great, much less mess. My planes are finally actually sharp for the first time.

For my carving tools I used a powered hard leather wheel charged with a green buffing compound. I've only been carving for a couple of years, none of those tools has yet needed anything more.

Turning tools are sharpened on a 180 grit CBN wheel, honed frequently with a 600 grit diamond card. I have two identical wheels set up, one with the Wolverive varigrind for bowl gouges and one with the wolverine platform for almost everything else.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

If you want repeatability, then you need something that helps you set the angle. If your tools are already sharp, a honing guide can help you with that.

My mostly final solution was a Tormek, which does a great job of helping you set the angle. With the hollow grind, I am then able to free hand on my stones more easily than with a totally flat edge. Obviously your success will vary in that department. So, why do I really like it? While using my chisels, I can very quickly pop over and touch them up free hand and get back to work. I rarely need to go back to the Tormek.

I would expect that with a slow grinder and an setup for setting angles consistently, you could do this without the Tormek, but, the Tormek was the first powered system that provided almost instant success for me.

I used to own a Worksharp system, and many here have had great success with it. I did manage to get things sharp with it, but, I needed to use use a platform on the top (for some reason, I was never able to get the part allowing you to sharpen a chisel from the underside of the disk to work and that was before I was on this forum so I really had nobody to ask). The worst part was that even with the platform, I had significant problems with skewing; which I have not seen anyone mention here before. The reason I had problems I am sure was related to the fact that while using the platform, the edge was placed onto a spinning disk that was running perpendicular to the sharp edge (moving left to right) and I always had problems on that left side. This was my first mechanical sharpening system and I had no idea what I was doing, and although I was able to get sharp edges, I was sufficiently unhappy with the system that I eventually gave it to the husband of my wife's friend who lives a couple of days drive away so I have no idea if he ever used it.

Tormek was my next purchase and I had instant success with chisels and plane blades.

In the years that I have had my Tormek, I have found blades that did not want to sit well in the jig (sides might be uneven, for example) and some very short blades without an appropriate jig, and what if you do not want a hollow grind? And each jig is pretty expensive.

Years ago, I tried to sharpen some knives on my Tormek and was not really happy with the results. Now that I can get a decent edge free hand knife sharpening, I will probably try it again on the Tormek. Note that I had great luck with the WorkSharp knife sharpening systems that use a belt. For keeping it sharp, I also like the Spyderco with the bars held at an angle, but you are not asking about that.

I did not notice where you live, but if you are anywhere near the middle of Ohio, you should try my Tormek and some other things that I have to get a feel for them. I am a big fan of trying a system before you commit, especially if it is a lot of money. If you stick with stones (or similar), decide if you want something that you soak or something that you do not. I did not like soaking my water stones so I currently own Shapton stones that I do not need to soak. I also own diamond stones and lots of Oil stones. There is a different "feel" for all of them. At the end of the day, I get what I feel is the best edge when I go from my Tormek to my Shapton stones 5K (Professional) ending with the 16K glass stone. Some people do not like the feel of the 5K, but having used it for years I don't know any better. I do own a bunch of glass stones (2K, 4K, 6K...) and even an 8K Professional. I don't have a lot of preference, but I generally finish on the 16K if using water stones.

Sometimes, while working, I just keep a few Dans Arkansas stones sitting out. I do not need to worry about them dishing and it leaves a decent edge especially when the chisel is mostly sharp anyway and I just need to clean it up right quick. Flip a coin as to how I will go with it since I own them both.

I usually flatten things on sandpaper so in theory I do not need a bunch of different grits, but I can also use my diamonds if I want. If things are really out of hand, I might use my Norton Crystolon or India stones to get started. Those Crystolon stones are really fast but they leave a rougher surface. I would not do a total final flattening on one if for no other reason than because they wear quickly so probably not as flat. Far more likely to do that for knives that are out of wack if I do not want to use a powered system for some reason.

If you can find someone near you who has a system that you would like to try, I highly recommend that. In the grand scheme of things, a simple guide is not overly expensive and you can use sandpaper on glass (or similar) to get a feel for how that works without spending a bunch. Problem with a Tormek (or similar) is that you just spent a $1000 and if you do not like it, that is a problem.

[Patrick Kane]

I started off with shapton water stones and the veritas MK jig. It always felt painfully slow, and the jig is a little finicky to setup. I cant remember ever having a perfectly square edge after setting up with their angle guide. I think there is room for improvement in that regard. I then jumped at an opportunity to pick up a ton of shapton glass stones. I much prefer the glass stones to the waterstones, if you have a choice. This method always worked pretty well. It is slow, but my chisels and plane irons were sharp enough. The downside is i needed a separate method for sharpening my kitchen knives. This is where the Tormek entered my life. I picked one up used with a bunch of jigs and used it for a month before selling all the shapton and veritas gear. You still need a stone or two for lapping backs, but the tormek is 50x faster than doing it by hand. Is the edge as sharp as doing it by hand? I cant say i really notice a difference. I had a shapton glass stone up to 16k, and i think thats a bit overkill. Once you hit 4-8k, its about as sharp as its going to get for an amateur. I keep thinking around grabbing a strop with honing compound to touch up edges quickly, and that might be something i add to the arsenal eventually. I could always use the tormek's leather wheel and honing compound to achieve the same effect, i suppose. If you have a variety of edges to sharpen and arent fanatical about looking at bevels under a microscope, then i think the Tormek is very fast and user-friendly. I dont see myself going back anytime soon.

[Scott Clausen]

I was using water stones but was getting tired of the mess from that method. I switched to PSA sand paper on float glass but my fingers would start hurting and if I needed to correct the bevel or a chip it was too much. I picked up a work sharp 3000 and in minutes had a new primary & secondary bevel on all my chisels. They were not only sharp but I no longer waited to long between re-sharpening. It is kind of strange but my dovetails improved since I can pare an edge so easily now. I haven't tried to do any plane irons yet so that jury is still out on that. So far I am happy with the work sharp for my needs.

[Brian Holcombe]

For western blades:

- hollow grind on a bench grinder with a CBN wheel

400 grit to remove the wear

30000 grit microbevel

take off the burr on the 30k stone

back to work.

[Eric Arnsdorff]

The “Unicorn Sharpening Method” looks like a real game changer!

I only have a dremel buffing wheel and quickly tried it with incredible results! I have a buffing wheel on order now.

While it doesn’t appear completely new, it does appear to have new thought behind it with real potential of how to go about sharpening as well as the properties of the metal.

It appears both the Rc ~62 hardness CV metal along with much cheaper and softer alloys benefit from this. But it hints that there could be an even better combination that could be optimized fir this method.

It’s interesting when I looked at other posts about using a buffing wheel and/or stropping methods that it was always dismissed that even though it proved quick and very sharp that it just wasn’t as good because it had a radius associated with it. It appears he saw this supposed detriment as a potential advantage. I’m thinking this may truly be an advantage to provide strength to the edge as opposed to a brittle point edge.

It’s certainly cheap to try as well as quick. It may be the unicorn I was hoping to find. My one try with a dremel sure has me thinking this is the way to go. I just need to define the methods a bit better and my tools may become sharp!!

[Jim Matthews]

I use a hand cranked grinder for heavy work. That is followed by a 3M deburring wheel for rough shaping.

I use oil stones for my beloved (soft) O1 quenched Marples chisels. Once the burr is raised a buffing wheel gets the last bit. (Rust is a problem in my shop)

Were I to start from scratch, I would use a grinder with CBN wheel as it can do most or the heavy lifting, with most any steel.

***
Caution with a Dremel is in order - those rotate at very high speeds, over a small surface area. Considerable heat may be generated, quickly.

[fred everett]

One note about the Veritas side clamp guide; it doesn’t work well with all chisels. I think it depends on the edge profile, and probably works best with better made chisels where the sides aren’t too squared off. I’ve used mine for a couple of weeks with my Marples chisels and they don’t lay consistently flat in the guide, so one edge is lower than the other leading to skewed bevels. I can eventually get it flat by trial and error, but the amount of time it was taking led me down the path of free hand sharpening for my secondary bevels.

I was going to return mine, but decided to keep it because I’m ordering a full set of Veritas PM-V11 bench chisels once they are back in stock.

I also have this issue Veritas side clamp guide. I too own Marples and it's very easy to tighten the guide and find the chisel's edges NOT in the groves. My Buck Bros bang arounds will not even sit straight in the guide. It's unfortunate because the guide has a lot going for it. Veritas if you're listening, this issue needs to be addressed.

Maybe I'll take a file to the groves, or just call them to see if I can apply the cost to their Mark II which seems by all accounts the crème de la crème in the honing guide arena.

[Tim Andrews]

Fred, there doesn't seem to be the perfect guide out there. I also own the Mk 11, and it's a great guide and the blades always lay flat, but with one issue; it's very easy for the chisel to swing left or right out of square. Others have commented about this problem, although some people state that it's user error. As much as I hate doing it, I use a pair of padded pliers to tighten down the knobs, and that solves the problem for me.

[fred everett]

Fred, there doesn't seem to be the perfect guide out there. I also own the Mk 11, and it's a great guide and the blades always lay flat, but with one issue; it's very easy for the chisel to swing left or right out of square. Others have commented about this problem, although some people state that it's user error. As much as I hate doing it, I use a pair of padded pliers to tighten down the knobs, and that solves the problem for me.

I just called Lee Valley. First off, their cust service answered 2nd ring so a good start. I explained the issue and told the rep I used the guide several times....rep said that doesn't matter if I was not happy I could return it or have another sent out. I said I wanted to return the guide....rep apologized and directed me to their pre-paid return label. Rep then explained the side clamp was a newer item and asked if I would kindly include a few comments on how I thought the engineers could improve the tool. To me, that is old school customer service by a company inclined to improve their products....fairly rare these days.

Tim do you think a strip of stick on sand paper would resolve the swing issue on the MK II? I was about to order the MK II...

[Tim Andrews]

Not sure about the sandpaper, maybe others have tried it.

[fred everett]

This is a timely thread for me as I about to change sharpening up in my shop. I'm staying with a honing guide, and a strop to finish, but I just ordered 3M microfinishing films hoping to move away from stones. Currently, it takes 10 times longer to ready the stones than to it does to sharpen the tools, which only take a few minutes. I'm also hoping to have less mess/cleanup with the films.

If I need to reestablish a bevel, or refurbish a yard sale chisel, I go cheapskate and install a 2x36 belt on my 4x36 belt sander using this jig idea (https://youtu.be/l3NCHyHq8PU) I tweaked a bit. Using a belt sander is awkward to say the least but I don't need to do reestablish bevels that frequently. At some point I'll move on from the belt sander, but I have one in college and another a year away lol.

[fred everett]

Not sure about the sandpaper, maybe others have tried it.

Just a thought. It may be one of those things that look good on paper just not practical.

[Derek Cohen]

I also have this issue Veritas side clamp guide. I too own Marples and it's very easy to tighten the guide and find the chisel's edges NOT in the groves. My Buck Bros bang arounds will not even sit straight in the guide. It's unfortunate because the guide has a lot going for it. Veritas if you're listening, this issue needs to be addressed.

Maybe I'll take a file to the groves, or just call them to see if I can apply the cost to their Mark II which seems by all accounts the crème de la crème in the honing guide arena.

Fred, I suspect that you are expecting too much from this guide. Not all guides suit the chisels are are to hold. There are a range of side clamp and top clamp guides around, and they all have cons for every pro with specific chisels.

Side clamp guides are not suited to tapering blades. In the case of this Veritas guide and the LN guide, both have fairly steep side walls. This limits the thickness of the blade, and it also make it less easy to fit and secure. I have both these guides (in the case of the Veritas, I began using it several years ago as part of pre-production testing). The LN is my go-to for shorter plane blades, such as BU blades, and it is tricky to get the fit cleanly at the sides. Thinner shoulder plane blades are easier. The Veritas is the same here.

Here is the Veritas with a thick blade. It works but takes care to set up ...

https://i.postimg.cc/2Sk6wwZT/5.jpg

It is somewhat ironical that the Veritas side clamp guide is poorly suited for their own block plane blade. Here the taper is at the rear ...

https://i.postimg.cc/L8xs01kS/9.jpg

Blades with even sides are rewarded with a solid fitting and a square bevel ...

https://i.postimg.cc/B6rbBfT1/7.jpg

The Veritas Mk ll top clamp is the best all rounder, and will do skew angles. The side clamp accessory is a killer for smaller blades, and is not limited by taper as the side walls are more vertical. However, it is much more expensive, and care needs to be taken to seat the back if the blade otherwise it will rock. THAT is the reason the Veritas side clamp and the LN side clamp have such acute side walls - to provide a registration for the back of the blade.

Is there a more suitable side clamp guide for your particular chisels (other than the Mk ll)? Perhaps the original Eclipse, as the side walls are more vertical. However, consider these to be a kit, and you often need to file them square.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[fred everett]

Fred, I suspect that you are expecting too much from this guide. Not all guides suit the chisels are are to hold. There are a range of side clamp and top clamp guides around, and they all have cons for every pro with specific chisels.

Side clamp guides are not suited to tapering blades. In the case of this Veritas guide and the LN guide, both have fairly steep side walls. This limits the thickness of the blade, and it also make it less easy to fit and secure. I have both these guides (in the case of the Veritas, I began using it several years ago as part of pre-production testing). The LN is my go-to for shorter plane blades, such as BU blades, and it is tricky to get the fit cleanly at the sides. Thinner shoulder plane blades are easier. The Veritas is the same here.

Here is the Veritas with a thick blade. It works but takes care to set up ...

https://i.postimg.cc/2Sk6wwZT/5.jpg

It is somewhat ironical that the Veritas side clamp guide is poorly suited for their own block plane blade. Here the taper is at the rear ...

https://i.postimg.cc/L8xs01kS/9.jpg

Blades with even sides are rewarded with a solid fitting and a square bevel ...

https://i.postimg.cc/B6rbBfT1/7.jpg

The Veritas Mk ll top clamp is the best all rounder, and will do skew angles. The side clamp accessory is a killer for smaller blades, and is not limited by taper as the side walls are more vertical. However, it is much more expensive, and care needs to be taken to seat the back if the blade otherwise it will rock. THAT is the reason the Veritas side clamp and the LN side clamp have such acute side walls - to provide a registration for the back of the blade.

Is there a more suitable side clamp guide for your particular chisels (other than the Mk ll)? Perhaps the original Eclipse, as the side walls are more vertical. However, consider these to be a kit, and you often need to file them square.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks for the great info Derek. You're correct regarding my expectations from the Veritas Side Clamping Guide (VSCG) as their customer service rep echoed this. The rep said the VSCG was designed for the shape of their Veritas chisels, which I understand, but that's NOT what is stated in their description. I am not annoyed by this considering the excellent customer service I received, and like other Veritas products the VSCG is high quality. If you own only Veritas chisels the VSCG would be a home run for you.

I'm still determined to move on from my arsenal of $15 honing guides AND the stones. I ordered the MKII w/o the side option to start.....it seems 50/50 regarding the issue of chisels moving out of square. We'll see where I fall. The project I'm designing will require around 100 dovetails so sharp chisels are a must.

[Conrad Styles]

Hi y'all, this is my 1st day on the site/community and my first submission. For starters, I am so impressed with all of the helpful input, suggestions and guidance that is offered here! This is supposed to be a touchy subject with many adamant opinions but I don't see even the slightest bit of animosity and/or condescension anywhere in the thread. I think I may have found a great group of people/community and am increasingly excited to be here.

All that said, I am just a novice WW but sharpening has always been a pain in the ass for me. While getting into the hobby, i found it hard to justify spending the $$ on quality sharpening equipment and, like everything else, that's the worst way to go about any part of building your shop's tools/equipment. So I finally bit the bullet and bought the Trend Diamond plate, a 6000 grit Shapton glass stone & a 16,000 grit Shapton glass stone. While this bumped up my game immensely from the DMT double sided yellow stone, I for some reason, am not really able to get a good "slurry" at all when I transition from the diamond plate to the shapton stones. While on the glass stones, it doesnt feel like anything is happening to the edge and again, I get zero slurry! So much so that I returned/exchanged them, thinking that something was wrong with them and I am having the same issue with the replacements that were sent. I actually didn't have to even send back the original stones for some reason, amazon just sent replacements and I was able to keep the others. So now I have 2 sets of stones that I can't figure out how to use! I have spent so much time with the coarse grit side of the Diamond plate, trying to flatten the glass stones, drawing grids and lapping until they disappear but still, the same results when try to sharpen my blades. Not sure if it is not proper etiquette or not, to ask a question in another's post but I am sure you all will let me know if not.

While I am still able to get my blades more than enough sharp using the Trend plate and then "pretending" that I am getting anything done on the Shapton stones, I definitely am not achieving the mirror finishes that I see in all of the youtube vids that I watch and again the part that I feel constantly reminds me that I am not doing it right is that I get no SLURRY! Can't a guy get a little slurry after spending $500 on sharpening equipment?! Man o' man! Anyhow, glad to have found this place and any input here would help and thanks for all the info already given on this topic thus far. Cheers!

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I use a Viel belt grinder available from Lee Valley or Viel directly.

I have the plane iron/cisel attachment for mine, and I use a waterstone for final finishing.

If I was going to start over again I would use the Viel grinder and abrasive paper for the final finishing..........Regards, Rod.

P.S. I also have an 8" low speed grinder near the lathe for turning tools.

[Brian Holcombe]

Abrasive paper is extremely expensive over time. I never recommend that approach to students. Oil or water stones and your bench grinder with a CBN wheel.

Two good stones, a 400 grit Naniwa combined with the finish stone that makes your heart sing and you’re good for many years. I wear out a rough stone about every two years. That would easily cost me hundreds in sandpaper if not more.

[Prashun Patel]

Brian I’ve seen you write twice now that you go from a very rough stone right to a high grit. Is this a new practice for you? What led you to skip the intermediates?

[Brian Holcombe]

Hi Prashun, this is not a new practice for me but something limited to western tools for my shop. I can, but do not often do this for Japanese tools which usually get the full run of stones.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

This is a timely thread for me as I about to change sharpening up in my shop. I'm staying with a honing guide, and a strop to finish, but I just ordered 3M microfinishing films hoping to move away from stones. Currently, it takes 10 times longer to ready the stones than to it does to sharpen the tools, which only take a few minutes. I'm also hoping to have less mess/cleanup with the films.

And that is why I now use Shapton stones. Spray and go! :-)

With sandpaper, I needed to adhere it to something so I had to take the time to do that.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Welcome Conrad!

Where do you live (roughly speaking)? If you are near Columbus Ohio, we can sharpen a few things to get you started! Well, if you are not already, I guess I need to carefully read the rest of your post...

There are so many ways to have success, it is just a question of "what works best for you". Some of that will be based on innate ability and then choosing a system that compensates for your flaws and your environment. I am not all that steady, so I hollow grind on a Tormek, which then allows me to free hand because the hollow registers nicely on my stones. I do not like soaking so I use things like Shapton (just a quick spray), Arkansas stones (no soaking there), etc...


Hi y'all, this is my 1st day on the site/community and my first submission. For starters, I am so impressed with all of the helpful input, suggestions and guidance that is offered here! This is supposed to be a touchy subject with many adamant opinions but I don't see even the slightest bit of animosity and/or condescension anywhere in the thread. I think I may have found a great group of people/community and am increasingly excited to be here.

Great bunch if you count me out! :D


While I am still able to get my blades more than enough sharp using the Trend plate and then "pretending" that I am getting anything done on the Shapton stones, I definitely am not achieving the mirror finishes that I see in all of the youtube vids that I watch and again the part that I feel constantly reminds me that I am not doing it right is that I get no SLURRY! Can't a guy get a little slurry after spending $500 on sharpening equipment?! Man o' man! Anyhow, glad to have found this place and any input here would help and thanks for all the info already given on this topic thus far. Cheers!

I do not get any slurry from my Shapton stones.

Have you ever looked at your edges under magnification? This could mean just an 8x to 20x loop (I usually use 10x) just to see what is going on. Sometimes I grab when of those USB microscopes. Something like this one that I ordered that I can connect to my Android Phone, chaper than some loops, it is crazy:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DRGR6LX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Of course then I ended up spending money on a better holder since the stand it comes with is horrid. So, not great, but, it feels like it does a lot for $20.

I do not do it so I cannot easily comment, but, if you are sharpening on diamonds then doing the final on your shapton stones, I might expect you to use a micro-bevel. I don't because i use a round stone (Tormek) that leaves a hollow grind so one could argue that I am always doing a micro-bevel....

You might even want to take a look at the "unicorn" method. I hear it works great on chisels. I have never used it, but that is because I like my hollow grind.

[Dan Gaylin]

I have read all the posts with great interest. I am surprised that NO ONE has mentioned the Sorby Pro Edge system, which has always interested me but I have not pulled the trigger on it.

I have the Work Sharp product but found I get the best results with the Veritas MK 2 sharpening jigs and diasharp diamond stones (float glass and abrasive paper for the highest grits).

[Frank Necaise]

Just like Andrew, Tormek plus Shapton pro stones.

[Conrad Styles]

Thanks for the input and suggestions Andrew. I live out in CA, so not close to you at all but thanks for the offer. I just ordered a loop from amazon. So hopefully that can help shed some light on what is going on. I've never heard of the Unicorn method but it looks like I have my next deep dive research topic for the night! I'll update if I am able to get anywhere with this conundrum! Thanks again

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Thanks for the input and suggestions Andrew. I live out in CA, so not close to you at all but thanks for the offer. I just ordered a loop from amazon. So hopefully that can help shed some light on what is going on. I've never heard of the Unicorn method but it looks like I have my next deep dive research topic for the night! I'll update if I am able to get anywhere with this conundrum! Thanks again

Unicorn Sharpening, a few references:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?284887-Was-it-just-my-imagination
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?286200-Return-the-Unicorn%E2%80%A6-What-Was-Old-is-New-Again
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?287029-Unicorn-buffing
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?284990-More-on-Unicorn-Profile

There was an article about it in one of the wood working magazines this year I think.

[Brian Holcombe]

David Weaver developed it so I trust it’s an excellent method but I haven’t tried it. David’s approaches are thoroughly researched and more importantly they are thoroughly tested.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

David Weaver developed it so I trust it’s an excellent method but I haven’t tried it. David’s approaches are thoroughly researched and more importantly they are thoroughly tested.

And people here have tested it with positive results. Derek Cohen, for example. Most of the discussion was on a different forum but I do not remember which one (since I am not a member there).

[Eric Arnsdorff]

I have acquired various things for my sharpening setup. However, I have not had time to get everything working due to my daughter’s wedding and a vacation. Hopefully I can give the unicorn method a try on my cheap chisels and my new Veritas low angle jack plane (PM-V11) as well as my old Stanley #4.
I have a new 180 grit CBN wheel (bored to 20 mm due to my old large exotic Chinese grinder), 400/1000 grit Diamond stones along with a new Rikon grinder with a soft buffing wheel and green crayon (no clue the grit since it came with an older purchase) to be setup and tried out.
I also have an old assortment of water stones and a leather stop to compare the methods to. I have an old Wolverine for my lathe tools as well. I also ordered a new Veritas jig because of my very poor ability to sharpen by hand.
I do think the “Unicorn” method has merit. I did give a try with my cheap chisels with a Dremel mounted buffing wheel with more success than I have with my hand sharpening methods. I also have a lighted loupe which showed me the edge was as good or better than what I typically end up with as well as using it to see when to stop as opposed to guessing. Honestly, the lighted loupe may prove to be one of the best additions and learning tools I have.
The method has a good “theoretical” basis from at least one aspect. The “round” profile near the tip certainly should add strength to the tip compared to the legacy flat faces creating at the apex. I find this the biggest “duh” item that makes the method somewhat genius (and admittedly not new but definitely dismissed in the past). The idea that my cheap chisels can become as good as the esteemed Veritas PM-V11 is still tough to swallow but I did decide to hold off on the purchase with hopes of good results.
I’m going to give it a try on my plane irons, cheap chisels and my lathe tools to see how it goes. I plan to use the CBN wheel to get a quick primary bevel then shape a secondary with the 1000 grit Diamond followed by the buffing. My lathe tools pose another challenge as I only have the CBN grind to the buffing planned. I can at least see the edge with my loupe to understand better what happens at the cutting edge.
I greatly appreciate the more structured comparison methods others are doing. That takes a lot of setup and time to do a proper study. Even if they appear to be case studies at this point, they are much better than many of the qualitative assessments. My method will be a poor qualitative assessment. But if it succeeds it will turn a very poor tool sharpener into an effective one that can now get back to doing what I really prefer which is making stuff from wood!

[fred everett]

This is a timely thread for me as I about to change sharpening up in my shop. I'm staying with a honing guide, and a strop to finish, but I just ordered 3M microfinishing films hoping to move away from stones. Currently, it takes 10 times longer to ready the stones than to it does to sharpen the tools, which only take a few minutes. I'm also hoping to have less mess/cleanup with the films.

I was very impressed with the 3M psa micro-finishing films, but I worried about cost so I ordered Trend diamond plates as recommended by Stumpy. The Trends are going back as I can feel the edges of the material about to peel off the one of the plates....wish I'd seen Paul Sellers blog regarding this b4 I ordered them.

So, I circled back to the 3M psa micro-finishing film for more testing. Took an old chisel and brutalized the 300 grit (40 mic) film scratching very hard fwd and backwards. The film did not tear and only peeled up when I went close to the edge. When it peeled, I cleaned under the edge and stuck it back down. I then took a good chisel and ran it over the same film and got a consistent clean finish on a 25 degree bevel. This convinced me the film is tough enough to handle many normal sharpenings. So the COST.....a great way to address this is steer away from the high grits.....IMO the 8k, 14k and 60k grits not needed. I achieved excellent results with the 300, 600 and 1800 grits. These grits are available in 5 sheet packs that are 8 1/2" x 11" for $15, which when cut into thirds gives me 15 sheets. In short, $45 total for 15 sheets each of 300, 600 and 1800, which for me, will last many years.

On the honing guide front, I ordered a Veritas MKII w/ narrow blade head which is excellent. At some point I need to move on from the micro-bevels which is the reason I use a guide. I can do everything freehand, but I don't think I'll ever be skilled enough do micro bevels consistently freehand. It's probably phycological but I feel blades are sharper with a micro-bevel.

At the end of the day my goal is to move away from water stones to a method where I can do a touch up sharpening of a chisel in under 5 minutes. I believe I've found a way with the 3M films, but I believe a course dia plate or stone, and a grinder of some sort, are still part of the overall equation. That's my take, but I'm hoping for opinions as that's how I learn.

[Dan Gaylin]

Fred you might want to try the Diasharp stones instead of the Trend stones. They are more expensive. But they have a continuous surface encrusted with diamond chips. I have found mine to stand up to wear quite well.