Decent small combo machine vs. separate machines for small shop

[Bert McMahan]

I'm finally building out my shop, which due to some unavoidable constraints means it'll be around 300 square feet instead of 450. Right now I have a 52" Sawstop, a Dewalt 735 planer, a small 6" Grizzly floor jointer, and a benchtop router table (plus lathe, bandsaw, etc but that's not what I'm asking about).

Fitting all of these tools into a 300 square foot shop is going to be tight. I've been looking around and I see something like the Minimax C 26G (https://shopscm.us/collections/featured-sales/products/minimax-c-26g-tersa) which would combine four of my machines into one and *looks* like it'd save me a lot of space.

I've never used a slider before but it looks like something I'd enjoy using. Has anyone made the jump to one of those units for a small shop, and if so, did you regret it? I know I can stash things underneath the saw, put the router table into the table saw, etc, which is what I'd do, but the idea of a combo machine looks pretty nice. I'd love to hear thoughts on it.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Bert, I own a Hammer A3-31 jointer/planer and a Hammer B3 saw/shaper.

I also have a small shop.

My issue with the 4 or 5 function machines is that they work best in a square shaped shop, whereas dual function machines like mine fit better in rectangular shops.

You will really appreciate the space savings, and larger jointer on a J/P, and will really like having a sliding table shaper and saw.........Regards, Rod.

[Erik Loza]

I actually sold the first C26 Genius in the US (a lifetime ago) and did the photography for Minimax USA website at the time. Neat little machine but must be the right customer. Due to size, you will not be able to dimension any sheet good whatsoever. Also, and I'm not sure if this has changed since I left SCM Group, but at the time, the Genius was only available with a 1-1/4" shaper spindle. Nothing wrong with that but we always felt that 3/4" would have been a more appropriate fit for that platform of machine. There are several of "sub-compact" combos floating around the market: The Genius, some Roblands, the Kity from France (no longer made?), and I guess we could configure a Hammer C3 to be of similar size, though I have never personally received any interest. The most important thing is to understand the cutting capacities. I seem to recall that my guy's hobby was making flag boxes and picture frames, so it was the right fit for his needs. OP, perhaps not you but I did tell a few customers that they would be unhappy with a sub-compact combo since they wanted it to replace a full-sized cabinet saw and of course, it can't do that. Again, maybe you are aware of all this. Best of luck in your research.

Erik

[Bert McMahan]

You know I actually hadn't realized quite HOW small the C26 is... I don't think it'd meet my needs as I'd like to do a few small cabinets here and there. I'd probably need to go to the next size up. I suppose seeing these in person should be pretty high on my to-do list.

[Charlie Jones]

I think you can do OK with what you have. I would change that 52” table to 36 and make any more changes after you have used the shop awhile. Seperate machines make it nice if you need to trim or plane just one board in the middle of a build. A lot of guys use combos but I don’t have the patience.

[Peter Kelly]

I’d certainly recommend the Genius 26c from SCM, love mine fits great in my tiny 180 square foot shop space at my house in the Catskills. I think the only thing if I had a do-over would be to get the 30c model with the longer 48" wagon. No regrets otherwise.

https://i.imgur.com/Eln5DUN.jpg

[Bert McMahan]

Peter, it looks like you have some plywood over there- how do you feel about working with sheet stuff with your saw? I don't have a need to break down full panels (I can rough them in with a circular saw) but I'd need to be able to dimension some stuff.

[Warren Lake]

biggest thing in a small shop is your machine layout and type of work you will do. My first shop was likely not more than 300 feet and had 11 machines including two cabinet saws. Best thing is to make some machines outfeeds for the other machines.

[Peter Kelly]

Bert - due to the size of my shop space, breaking down plywood sheets would be difficult with any sliding saw so I tend to size everything as accurately as possible with the track saw outside and bring it all in to be fine tuned on the C26. If you plan on working with sheet materials, you’ll want to make sure you get the version support arm as on the C30 - https://www.scmgroup.com/en_US/scmwood/products/joinery-machines.c884/universal-combined-machines.887/minimax-c-30g.661

Might be a bit awkward with the smaller mitre fence setup.

Regarding Erik’s comment about 1.25" spindle on the shaper - lists of different profile knives are available for cutterheads by CMT and others: https://www.cmtorangetools.com/na-en/cutter-heads-knives/13-piece-multiprofile-cutter-head-sets-without-limiters

Pretty inexpensive once you get the head itself. Tools Today also sells brazed carbide cutters for 1.25" for not terribly expensive. Certainly less than Freud anyway.

[Andrew Seemann]

My previous shop was a little under 300 sq ft, and I had a Unisaw, 15" planer, 6" jointer, 48"belt sander, 14" bandsaw, 10" SCMS, router table, drill press, Scandinavian bench, sharpening bench and 3' x 7' assembly table in it. Layout and mobile bases are the key.

I personally don't have the patience to switch between operating modes on a combo machine. It doesn't matter how quick and easy they are, it still annoys me. I don't even like having to move a benchtop machine onto the bench top:)

[Ralph Okonieski]

I have a small size area and changed from separates to a C26 combo. I wish it had a longer slider , but my shop would not accommodate it. It has plenty of power for cutting thick 8/4 wood. Love the Tersa knives. Wish I did not have to change from jointer to planer and vice versa but knew what I was getting into. The excellent accuracy of cuts is repeatable. Take off the crosscut fence, return it to the saw, the accuracy is still there. Would I buy it again? Yes, in a heartbeat.

I had considered the Hammer combo as well. It has a fine reputation as well as the SCM products. I do not remember exactly why the C26 was chosen, it might have been an inch or two narrower to get through the door to the basement? It was a tight fit with the C26.

I do not cut a lot of plywood, except for drawer bottoms mostly. I use a track saw to breakdown a full size sheet, then cut final dimensions on the C26.

[Erik Loza]

A C26 with a sliding table long enough to crosscut a 4' sheet and still have room for the fence and a hold-down clamp would be GOLDEN.

Erik

[Steve Rozmiarek]

A couple shops ago I was in a smaller 2 car garage, 22x22. I was a serious hobbyist that took on some carpentry stuff for hire that used the shop a little. I also have a substantial hand tool fetish. In that little shop I had a 52" tablesaw, a 36" bandsaw, a shaper, a jointer, 14" bandsaw, a SCMS station, a big cyclone system, etc, and a full 1/4 of the space devoted to the hand tools and bench. It was crowded, but usable especially when the driveway could also be used. In the middle of that I decided that I really wanted a slider. Ended up buying a Felder CF741, that's the saw/shaper, jointer planer combo. It's a 9' slider, and the J/P is 16". Also have the mortiser and a pile of shaper tooling and power feeder. I still have that machine in a 13,000 sqft shop, and it still works extremely well.

I went full combo because the tiny space required it if I wanted the functionality I thought. Maybe correct, maybe not, but it has proven to be a very usable machine, even in the tiny shop. I set it diagonally in the space and was able to get full stroke on the saw and (4x8 sheet cut either way, anywhere on the sheet, ability to crosscut boards up to 12' in the space), plus the J/P had more room than I really needed. All the other tools minus the jointer, shaper and table saw stayed. My point is, you can probably figure out how to shoehorn in a superb machine into that space you have.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer working in my big shop now, but lots of good times in that little garage.

[Bob Potter]

Please for give me for jumping in here but Erick just wanted to compliment you I have never meet you but only know you from this forum. I remember back when you worked for MiniMax and there were times you talked someone out of buying something because you thought it was not right for meeting there needs and in doing so possibly give up a sale. And I thought right there that man would not sell something just to make a sale but cared about the customer and that is very rewarding. We need more people like you. Every time I see your name I would think about wanting to compliment you. Keep up the good work and forum forgive me for jumping in like this, Bob

[Rod Wolfy]

I think you can do OK with what you have. I would change that 52” table to 36 and make any more changes after you have used the shop awhile. Seperate machines make it nice if you need to trim or plane just one board in the middle of a build. A lot of guys use combos but I don’t have the patience.

I've had a 52" table saw and a Felder BF631 in the past. I have a SawStop 36" now, a track saw and a Hammer A3-41 coming next month.

[Bert McMahan]

A C26 with a sliding table long enough to crosscut a 4' sheet and still have room for the fence and a hold-down clamp would be GOLDEN.

Erik

How exactly does one analyze the crosscut capability of these machines? You mention you'd like it to crosscut a 4' sheet comfortably, but the website claims "48 inch squaring stroke". I would've read that as "you can square up a 48 inch piece" but it sounds like that's not the case, is that right? Or is it an "area to the side of the blade" thing?

[Andy D Jones]

At a minimum, you need to add the length of the saw blade in the cut to the stroke length to get a safe cutting length. The length of the saw blade in the cut is going to vary with blade diameter, depth of cut, and how much blade you want to see above the cut, etc.

The position of the miter fence can also make a huge difference. If it only travels from 24" in front of the arbor to 24" behind it, that's a 48" stroke, but it will not even safely cross cut a 24" wide panel.

And depending how far the fence pivot is from the blade when it passes the blade, it has to travel well past the blade for it to be able to cut less than 90 degrees. It may cross cut a 24" panel (or whatever width) at 90 degrees, but will it miter the same board at 45 degrees? Figuring this out can be difficult without seeing the machine in person, with a measuring tape in hand.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[Joe Hendershott]

.... and make any more changes after you have used the shop awhile.

This is good advice. I recently moved to a smaller 1200 sq.ft. place and agonized over placement of everything. After using it for a short while I moved many things from the original plan. The only machines now not on wheels are a Minimax 4e and drill press.

I also looked at combo jointer/planers but the delivery times on the Minimax were way in the future. I settled on a Powermatic 60HH and kept my Makita planer. It's a decision I regret now and will purchase the combo soon and take the hit selling the 60HH.

[Joe Hendershott]

A C26 with a sliding table long enough to crosscut a 4' sheet and still have room for the fence and a hold-down clamp would be GOLDEN.

Erik

Yes on this for sure.

[Phillip Mitchell]

The idea of a combo machine sounds good, but having used a few different models in other shops, they mostly annoy me in practice. This is probably because of how I learned and it was mostly on larger separate machines in a larger space. It’s a workflow and convenience factor for me and I really value being able to leave setups on a machine and having the flexibility to go back to that same setting until I decide to or need to change it as opposed to being forced to change it immediately after one operation in order to do the next operation. That’s just me, and I’m sure there are clever ways to work around this to some degree.

I also have a small shop space (around 500 sq ft) and am stubborn and have moved in some large and heavy separate machines that really bring me a lot of joy and precision. This has forced me to undergo serious shop Tetris, get creative with infeed and outfeed spaces being multi function, and not be afraid for ripping stuff apart to some degree and starting over with the shop layout once something has been in use and isn’t really working the way I’d hoped.

I do not, however have a slider in my shop. Up to this point, I have chosen to have 2 table saws back to back - a 10” cabinet saw with 52” fence and a 16” saw with rack and pinion fence and very accurate factory miter gauges. I do wish I had a shorter stroke slider, but I think it would have to be my only table saw and I don’t know that I could reasonably fit a full stroke slider that could dimension full sheets of ply.

I also have a 20” planer, 12” jointer and 1 1/4” spindle shaper (to speak to the other elements of a combo) in this space and really appreciate them being separate machines. The planer and shaper have dedicated spots but are mobile so that helps in certain spatially challenged situations.

I can walk through the shop comfortably enough, but I don’t have a ton of open floor space (more than say 8’x8’) in any given area. I choose to fill out the wide open space with certain machines, but long for more wide open space for assembly, staging material during milling, finishing, etc. It’s always a trade off somewhere in a small shop space - you just have to pick which $#!+ sandwich you prefer to eat!

I do this professionally and often times have tasks that aren’t necessarily building a single piece of furniture from start to finish and the work flow required for some things really benefits from separate machines and being able to jump back and forth between preset machines. This efficiency helps determines my profit, so it’s a bit different than a hobbyist building furniture for the joy of it. I think I could probably be ok with a really nice combo machine is I wasn’t trying to make a living doing this.

[Kevin Jenness]

I'm with Philip. The o.p. may find a small combination machine is a good solution for small scale projects in his limited space and the individual machine functions an upgrade from the ones he has now. For me though having to break down the shaper to cut a replacement blank for one that blew out, or cranking the planer table up and down to switch functions would drive me mad (speaking from experience here).

[Peter Kelly]

How exactly does one analyze the crosscut capability of these machines? You mention you'd like it to crosscut a 4' sheet comfortably, but the website claims "48 inch squaring stroke". I would've read that as "you can square up a 48 inch piece" but it sounds like that's not the case, is that right? Or is it an "area to the side of the blade" thing?Depending on the placement of your fence along the sliding table you'll lose a few inches of cutting length eg: in order to crosscut a 48" sheet and clear the leading edge of the blade, you'd need a saw with a 60" stroke to accommodate the fence and support table.

https://i.imgur.com/Q9m63b8.jpg

[Alex Zeller]

I think the OP has to ask himself how he works. Since he has a separate jointer and planer how often does he go back and forth. For me I'm like Phillip. Once I have my planer set for a certain thickness I like to leave it there. Even though it has a digital readout and in theory I should be able to set it to the exact same thickness I just like ti leave it set. Sometimes it'll be weeks later and I decide one board for a project isn't going to work out so I'll mill up a new one. Other times I go back and forth between the jointer and planer.

That being said I could see where a combo jointer/ planer could be nice. Having a wider jointer than my current 8" is tempting. But adding in a table saw too? I don't think I would care much for that. I only use my shaper by itself so if it was built into another machine I don't think it would have much of an impact on the way I work. Everything but the tools that can be up against a wall (lathe, drill press, oscillating spindle sander, and mortiser) are on mobile bases. I have a general way of laying them out when doing a job but it's not set so if needed I can push one out of the way to work with longer material.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'm with Philip. The o.p. may find a small combination machine is a good solution for small scale projects in his limited space and the individual machine functions an upgrade from the ones he has now. For me though having to break down the shaper to cut a replacement blank for one that blew out, or cranking the planer table up and down to switch functions would drive me mad (speaking from experience here).

Yes, it can be annoying but it does force you to be more efficient so you actually work up to a level where changeovers aren't much of a factor. It is a way to get quality machines into a small space, so the gains can be worth the hassle. I recommend separates if you have the space, but good combos are definitely worth a look if not.

[Derek Cohen]

I'm finally building out my shop, which due to some unavoidable constraints means it'll be around 300 square feet instead of 450. Right now I have a 52" Sawstop, a Dewalt 735 planer, a small 6" Grizzly floor jointer, and a benchtop router table (plus lathe, bandsaw, etc but that's not what I'm asking about).

Fitting all of these tools into a 300 square foot shop is going to be tight. I've been looking around and I see something like the Minimax C 26G (https://shopscm.us/collections/featured-sales/products/minimax-c-26g-tersa) which would combine four of my machines into one and *looks* like it'd save me a lot of space.

I've never used a slider before but it looks like something I'd enjoy using. Has anyone made the jump to one of those units for a small shop, and if so, did you regret it? I know I can stash things underneath the saw, put the router table into the table saw, etc, which is what I'd do, but the idea of a combo machine looks pretty nice. I'd love to hear thoughts on it.

Bert, it sounds like a single garage .. is this so?

I have a double garage, however only use one side as there needs to be clear space for parking one car. My focus remains on hand tool use, so the machines are laid out to create space for a work bench at one end and a short slider (49”) in the centre. While pretty crowded, it feels more spacious as there is an open bay, and I can wheel machines, such as a Festool CT26, into this area.

My combination machines include a Hammer A3-31 (I am very happy with this jointer/planer), which provides more jointing width for its price. The table saw is a Hammer K3 slider with 49” wagon (perfect for solid wood-orientated furniture makers). There is also a router table in its outfeed.

Positioning the machines depends on your work flow, and for myself I could cram together these three (just enough space to work them in this permanent position) ....

https://i.postimg.cc/vZH3McVG/DP12a.jpg

An earlier photo of the K3, but you get an idea of size. It actually is smaller overall than the contractor saw with 52” rails it replaced ...

https://i.postimg.cc/XJTP8ySS/1.jpg

Together, these machines take about 2/3 of the length. These is also a full size lathe along the wall, and space given to dust collection. Dust collection could be a space saver if placed outside, which I cannot do. My next big (and last purchase before retiring in a couple of years) with likely be the Harvey Gyro, which is the most compact serious machine I currently am aware of.

Regards from Perth

Derek