Squaring Boards by Hand

[Tom Mayock]

I am new to the hand tool world. After finally figuring out how to get my hand planes sharp (due in large part to some advice I received here), I am trying to learn how to square and dimension boards by hand. I have watched a ton of videos on the process on YouTube, and I have also done a lot of reading on the subject. My attempts so far have generally followed the approach advocated by Mike Siemsen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEdgF8NDsB0).

My results so far have been very mixed, and I really struggle with getting the face flat. I also seem to waste a large amount of wood during the milling process. My primary issue is that after I get a board reasonably flat, when I reference the board to my table saw top, I can never completely eliminate all rocking. Is this to be expected? Will there always be some deviations that can be detected by tapping the board corners when the board is referenced against something that has been machined flat like a granite slab or a table saw?

Also, regarding the "tap test" for board flatness, are there any good references for how to use the tapping to identify the next steps in the milling process? In every video I watch, the instructor seems to be able to magically know how to interpret certain types of rocking to identify what to do with the board next. My interpretation of the rocking patterns seems to frequently make things worse rather than better, and I feel like I am really missing something here.

Lastly, any suggestions for how to improve hand milling by hand? Right now I am just practicing by working through a scrap pile. The shavings-to-final-board ratio is not favorable.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Tom, It is often a difficult procedure to find the high and low spots on a piece of wood. A straight edge can help.

A recent post of mine > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?290331 < is about making straight edges and winding sticks.

There are many Youtube videos on making and using winding sticks.

There are many ways people use to find the high spots on a work piece. Metal workers often coat a reference surface with dykem blue and rub a metal piece over this. The dykem blue will transfer to the high spots. Then the removal work is only done to the high spots.

Woodworkers tend to do this by eye. Find if one side is flatter than the other and use it for the starting reference. Find any high spots and plane them down to make this face as flat as possible. This face should the be marked for reference. Then square the edges and finally the other side of the board can be worked using the square edges for reference.

It also depends on the wood. Some pieces are bowed beyond redemption. Some pieces have internal stresses that are going to change as wood is removed.

It can take some time getting this phase of woodworking to click, be patient.

jtk

[Tom M King]

Sounds like you're talking about flattening, rather than squaring. Don't hold the plane down all the way across the board. Only take the high parts off.

Here's the way I do it. These panels were going to be raised panels, on both sides, for exterior shutters, so there was no need to worry about the outside parts that were going to be taken for the raised panel edges anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SED7B65cppM

[Jerome Andrieux]

. My attempts so far have generally followed the approach advocated by Mike Siemsen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEdgF8NDsB0).

My results so far have been very mixed, and I really struggle with getting the face flat. I also seem to waste a large amount of wood during the milling process. My primary issue is that after I get a board reasonably flat, when I reference the board to my table saw top, I can never completely eliminate all rocking. Is this to be expected? Will there always be some deviations that can be detected by tapping the board corners when the board is referenced against something that has been machined flat like a granite slab or a table saw?

Lastly, any suggestions for how to improve hand milling by hand? Right now I am just practicing by working through a scrap pile. The shavings-to-final-board ratio is not favorable.

Mike Siemsen’s approach is great but it takes some time and practice to develop a feel for identifying high spots.

It doesn’t require much for a board to rock on a perfectly flat surface. In practice, a 1/64" won’t be an issue over the length of a board.

Hand stock preparation is not more wasteful than machine prep. The high spots, the twists, cups and crowns have to go anyway.
It can be physically demanding though. So I would recommend using light scrub and jack planes to remove the bulk and approach a flat surface, then a heavy jointer set lightly to flatten and approach a smooth surface. A smoother is useless there, at the stock prep stage.

oh, and of course, doing stock prep by hand means you need to develop a keen eye for the good pieces at the lumber yard :)

[Barney Markunas]

I share your pain; there are plenty of days when I would surely love to have access to a nice wide planer and jointer with nice long infeed and outfeed tables.

Tom mentioned it earlier - remove the high spots. It takes some discipline to leave the low spots alone but you will be happy you did. Check your progress frequently and remember it is very easy to get carried away and just make your board thinner instead of flatter.

A plane with a cambered blade and a fairly open mouth is your friend. I won't get into the jack or scrub debate. Just know that you have to remove a lot of stock, you don't want to be doing it with a smoother that makes gossamer thin shavings.

Pay attention to the orientation of your defects. Working on the cupped face of your stock lets your plane rest on two high spots which is a good thing. Working on the bowed face of your board will have your plane following a convex surface which gets you back to that thinner not flatter situation.

It doesn't really matter when you are just practicing on your scrap pile (a very good idea in my opinion) but help yourself with stock selection when you are actually making something other than practice shavings. Judicious cutting of bowed stock can potentially save you a lot of effort spent planing.

Don't let perfect get in the way of good enough. This is supposed to be fun not frustrating.

[Warren Mickley]

Mike Siemsen's approach is extremely wasteful of both time and material. He starts with a board that is nearly flat and removes at least 1/8 inch of material. It is hard to find someone on UTube who looks like they have flattened a hundred boards.

You want to be constantly consulting your straightedge and winding sticks, so that you don't take off stuff where the board is already low. You don't want to do any cross grain planing unless the board is really bad, and then only in the worst corners, etc, not everywhere on the board.

[Jason Buresh]

If you are using your table saw table as a reference surface, have you verified it is flat? I only have a contractor saw in my shop, and while the table is reasonably flat it isnt perfect. Doesn't hurt to check.

Im not sure what kind of saw you have. I would expect a permanent cabinetmaker table saw to be more accurate than my little contractor saw.

I am no master at flattening boards by hand, but winding sticks are your friend here. I have followed Joshua Farnsworth's method from wood and shop too. Might not hurt to check out.

And as someone mentioned, don't get too caught up in perfection. This is supposed to be fun!

[Tom Mayock]

If you are using your table saw table as a reference surface, have you verified it is flat? I only have a contractor saw in my shop, and while the table is reasonably flat it isnt perfect. Doesn't hurt to check.

Im not sure what kind of saw you have. I would expect a permanent cabinetmaker table saw to be more accurate than my little contractor saw.

I am no master at flattening boards by hand, but winding sticks are your friend here. I have followed Joshua Farnsworth's method from wood and shop too. Might not hurt to check out.

And as someone mentioned, don't get too caught up in perfection. This is supposed to be fun!

The table saw that I am referencing against is a SawStop PCS. The last time I checked, it was very flat.

I have been using winding sticks, but I am thinking that I have just been taking too much off when I go to knock off the high spots that I identify with the sticks.

[Tom Mayock]

Thanks for the responses. My takeaway so far is that I should start by just knocking down the high spots. That is definitely different from what I have been doing, which is making the ends of the board coplanar, then trying to make the middle of the board coplanar with the ends.

[Phil Mueller]

You may also want to check out David Charlesworth’s method. It has worked very well for me.

[Robert Engel]

I just get one side to sit flat. I don't care how flat it is, I just want enough points of contact to keep it from rocking and bending when I plane. Put the crown side up.

Then I concentrate only on getting the opposite surface flat. One boards or panels over 10" wide I use a #6, but a #5 or 5 1/2 is really well suited for this job.

I start going 90 across the face. Typically there is a convex cup, you have to be careful with that. Pencil lines across the board will help you take the crown down evenly. I tip the plane on edge to check for flatness, shine a light will reveal gaps.

Once the crown (if any) is gone I check with winding sticks, and with 45 degree strokes on the high points. Constantly checking with winding sticks when it looks good, a few strokes lengthwise to smooth it out.

Using a marking gauge registered off the flat face, go all around the board, flip it over and repeat the process.

[Bob Jones 5443]

You may also want to check out David Charlesworth’s method. It has worked very well for me.

+1 on Phil's advice.

Start with a reliable straight edge to find high spots. Scribble over the hills with a pencil and shave them down most of the way.

Then go after "wind." Your table saw is a great help in locating the direction of wind or twist. As Warren suggests, you want to take off the least wood to get rid of the warp. Winding sticks will show you the two high corners.

What I do next I learned from David Charlesworth. I invested in some plastic precision shim stock. I place shims under the winding sticks at either one or both of the LOW corners until the sticks are zeroed out. That tells me how many thousands I'm out, which I can translate into some number of 0.001" or 0.002" shavings. Then you use David C.'s "stop-shaving" method to take down the high corners. The shims help you predict how many shavings you'll need (it's remarkably reliable). Keep at it until the sticks are zeroed without shims.

Finally, flatness. This is where a cambered plane iron comes in. Again, David Charlesworth has demonstrated this method of producing a set of tiny scalloped shavings across the width of the board. Invest in his DVD Precision Planing. Lie-Nielsen should have it in stock. (In my library I have his earlier 2005 version, but I suspect the Precision Planing is much enhanced, based on how he taught me in 2019.)

Unlike the run-of-the-mill YouTuber, David has placed his considerable wisdom in his DVDs (now also available as streaming video). There is simply no more cost-effective purchase you can make for your craft: no exceptions, in my book.

So far I can say I have truly mastered two fundamentals of woodworking: sharpening and milling stock by hand. Both are directly due to David's exceptional instruction. I have built competency to varying degrees in other aspects of the craft, but not what I'd call "mastery." But David can show you how to work with precision, confidence, and repeatability –– every time –– on the skill of flattening a face.

I wish you success.

[Derek Cohen]

1. Begin by finding and marking high spots, localise and then remove just these. You cannot accurately determine twist or cupping otherwise.

2. When using the winding sticks, you may prefer to use a feeler gauge rather than shims to determine the amount it is out. Shavings would be better, but they curve and are not a reliable measure. Use something you can relate to.

3. If one corner is higher than the other, the opposing corner is also likely to be out. Do not lower these any further - only lower the high corners.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

Unmentioned above, my approach starts with the more cupped side "up".

Packing shavings under the curved board keeps it from rocking. I use my Jack plane registering across two high points *crossgrain*.

Each pass should take off a little more.

Once the board is close - verified with the side of the plane - I gauge a thickness line around the board.

Plane at a skew to get down to desired thickness.

When it's close, I leave it alone before smoothing, jointing and squaring.

https://youtu.be/2Tvxy_UOGMY

[Derek Cohen]

Mike Siemsen ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEdgF8NDsB0&amp;t=449s&amp;ab_channel=MikeSiemsen

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom Trees]

I use a mix mash of Cosman and Charlesworth's fancy bench approach, paired with using the cap iron correctly
means only one planing stop/beam needed, i.e no need for rotating stock.

Fancy, as in to be able to trust the bench, and use a variety of techniques.
Some of these might include...
What one could call candeling, using a good lamp with a decent diameter shade, something like 7.5" or 8"
A good angle poise is really nice if you can find them, Cosman seems to have no bother getting new ones across the pond.
I'd say its as close to an essential tool as you can find, took me a long time to find some
Great for shining light to see where the timber is sitting.
.455472


Rocking is another good technique to use if you have a reference, the corners that knock will be the low points, so the opposite corners are high spots.

Pivoting the work from an end, to see where the timber will pivot from, if there's a lengthwise convex bow, the timber will spin about from the middle, and if there's a hollow
the other end will stay stationary
I use a mix mash of Cosman and Charlesworth's fancy bench approach, paired with using the cap iron correctly
means only one planing stop/beam needed, i.e no need for rotating stock.

And lastly rubbing the timber on the bench is another technique you can use, the high spots will get burnished.
I sometimes use a crayon if something needs to be very accurate.

A word of warning about trusting your bench though...
If you are referring to the bench when planing longer stock, then make sure that the tool that you have used to check the bench
is as long as the longest thing you ever plan on planing.
One can end up wasting a lot of material off the ends if a shorter than the work straight edge is used.

Here's a pair of straight and flat lengths of timber, which are also perfectly parallel
These sit together with no light showing, and one can be flipped over to make sure an error isn't getting hidden..
What one could call spoon factor
The two lengths of timber when paired will double the error of the bench.



455473

For precision jigs, or if one can just not get the hang of planing, then this technique might also be used to great effect.
Black crayon works the best.
Probably as much concern as candle wax, if worried about mess, and comes off very quickly, so much so, that to really use it all the time, wouldn't make sense.
Great for teaching one the meaning of a high spot, and how deep a slightly protruding iron will cut.
Get a good lamp and don't rely on this technique for more than a lesson.
455474

Tom

[Rob Mahar]

I won't add my process to the mix since its sounds like its a combination of the tips others have already given. And I wouldn't consider myself an expert by any stretch of the imagination anyway.

I would just say that while striving for perfection is good to do, its not required for every single board in order to get tight joints. If you are using your table saw to check, you can shim it (paper, shavings, feeler gauges, whatever) until it stops rocking to get an idea on how far out the board is. Then think about it fits into the project and how a small error might show up or not. More often than not, a very small amount of rocking won't make any difference at the end. Being consistent measuring off of reference faces/edges and how you transfer measurements is much more important in my experience.

The other point that may already be obvious (it wasn't for me at first), but just in case: Don't try to perfectly dimension a board until its been cut down to close to its final size. An 1/16" of cup across a board becomes 1/32" if you are planning on ripping it in half anyway.

[Rob Young]

You want to be constantly consulting your straightedge and winding sticks, so that you don't take off stuff where the board is already low. You don't want to do any cross grain planing unless the board is really bad, and then only in the worst corners, etc, not everywhere on the board.

This.

Always do the least amount you can do when working by hand.

Somebody else mentioned that doing all the prep by hand will re-enforce lessons in stock selection too. Pick better stock and you will have less to do.

Finally, learn the difference between "flat" and "smooth" so as to not overwork a non-show face.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Tom, normally I wouldn't think I have much to add to the wealth of knowledge already given, but perhaps as a newbie my perspective might be helpful? anyway take it for what it is - the blind leading the blind.

my questions are what do you have for work? I use a No.8, a No. 4 and a machinist right angle to test for square. I thought I was getting OK results until I tried to laminate two boards together, than I realized how much I suck.

I bought a 50" straight edge. I can't tell you how much of a difference that made. Half an hour of work on isolated areas of the board (high spots where the straight edge could pivot) and the boards are finally approaching flat.

there is definitely a learning curve to this hobby, but I think a good long straight edge, a machinist square, and a decent triplane can take you pretty far. Made a world of difference for me

[Tom Mayock]

Tom, normally I wouldn't think I have much to add to the wealth of knowledge already given, but perhaps as a newbie my perspective might be helpful? anyway take it for what it is - the blind leading the blind.

my questions are what do you have for work? I use a No.8, a No. 4 and a machinist right angle to test for square. I thought I was getting OK results until I tried to laminate two boards together, than I realized how much I suck.

I bought a 50" straight edge. I can't tell you how much of a difference that made. Half an hour of work on isolated areas of the board (high spots where the straight edge could pivot) and the boards are finally approaching flat.

there is definitely a learning curve to this hobby, but I think a good long straight edge, a machinist square, and a decent triplane can take you pretty far. Made a world of difference for me

For flattening I have a No 4 Stanley, a Stanley Jack plane from the 70s (maybe a no 5, not sure), and a Record Jointer plane that is probably a No 7. The straightedge that I have been using is a metal yard stick. It seems to be straight when I reference it against my table saw top. Are there other options for straight edges that might be better for flattening stock?

[Mark Hennebury]

The plane Truth.

A few things;

Before you can plane wood flat….You first have to understand the nature of wood.

Wood is flexible. if the wood you are using is thick and strong it may not flex when you push the plane across it, it is thin it may flex a lot. Wood can also move when you plane it due to internal stress, so wood needs to be stable to start with, or you are going to be chasing your tail. If you are doing a large table top, then it is especially important to make sure that it is properly supported without creating any distortion to it.
Once you determine that then you proceed to shimming the wood to support it from flexing if need be, or at least from rocking.

Next is to understand the nature of flat.

Two points; A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
Three points; Flat is the plane formed by three non-colinear points. Connect those three points with straight lines and you have a flat plane.
Five points; Are used to define a flat rectangle. The four corners and the centre.

Now take your winding sticks….. throw them away…. and get yourself a good straight edge!

With your straightedge check, across the grain, lengthways with the grain and across the diagonals.
The diagonals will tell you if your board is twisted….. where and by precisely how much.
You may find that using shims on a large surface like a table top may help; Put a penny or a dime on each of the four corners and one in the centre, lay your straightedge across the diagonals, if your board is flat, the straightedge will touch all three points across both diagonals.
If it rocks, the middle is high.
If it doesn’t touch the center; the corners are high.
Plane down to the lowest point, even amounts from each corner, if they are high.
Constantly check both diagonals! To end up flat, the straightedge must touch all three points across both diagonals. The five points define the flat plane and everything must be faired in to those points, check with your straightedge across and lengthways and plane down all of the high spots. If you have spots that are lower then your five reference spots, then you must lower you five reference spots.
After some practice you will learn to read it and do it quicker.


Once you wrap your head around what you are attempting to do and get some practice, it will become second nature to you and you will remove the minimum amount of wood from the right place to get to your goal.

455628

[Tom Mayock]

The plane Truth.

A few things;

Before you can plane wood flat….You first have to understand the nature of wood.

Wood is flexible. if the wood you are using is thick and strong it may not flex when you push the plane across it, it is thin it may flex a lot. Wood can also move when you plane it due to internal stress, so wood needs to be stable to start with, or you are going to be chasing your tail. If you are doing a large table top, then it is especially important to make sure that it is properly supported without creating any distortion to it.
Once you determine that then you proceed to shimming the wood to support it from flexing if need be, or at least from rocking.

Next is to understand the nature of flat.

Two points; A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
Three points; Flat is the plane formed by three non-colinear points. Connect those three points with straight lines and you have a flat plane.
Five points; Are used to define a flat rectangle. The four corners and the centre.

Now take your winding sticks….. throw them away…. and get yourself a good straight edge!

With your straightedge check, across the grain, lengthways with the grain and across the diagonals.
The diagonals will tell you if your board is twisted….. where and by precisely how much.
You may find that using shims on a large surface like a table top may help; Put a penny or a dime on each of the four corners and one in the centre, lay your straightedge across the diagonals, if your board is flat, the straightedge will touch all three points across both diagonals.
If it rocks, the middle is high.
If it doesn’t touch the center; the corners are high.
Plane down to the lowest point, even amounts from each corner, if they are high.
Constantly check both diagonals! To end up flat, the straightedge must touch all three points across both diagonals. The five points define the flat plane and everything must be faired in to those points, check with your straightedge across and lengthways and plane down all of the high spots. If you have spots that are lower then your five reference spots, then you must lower you five reference spots.
After some practice you will learn to read it and do it quicker.


Once you wrap your head around what you are attempting to do and get some practice, it will become second nature to you and you will remove the minimum amount of wood from the right place to get to your goal.

455628
Thanks. So you don't use winding sticks at all? Also, what would you consider a good straightedge? I found this one from Taylor Tools (https://taytools.com/products/anodized-aluminum-straight-edges?variant=18275208331315) that seemed to be reasonably priced.

[Winston Chang]

Thanks. So you don't use winding sticks at all? Also, what would you consider a good straightedge? I found this one from Taylor Tools (https://taytools.com/products/anodized-aluminum-straight-edges?variant=18275208331315) that seemed to be reasonably priced.

I got one from Amazon that looks exactly the same. It's the 24" version, and I'm pretty sure it's flat to within 0.001" over its length. I'm very glad I got it.

[Mark Hennebury]

Everyone has their own way of doing things, I don't generally use winding sticks, that's just my preference. Having a few options gives you food for thought. The best advice that I can give you is to seek to understand the basics, understand the relationships then you will find what works for you. Don't copy, don't do stuff because someone tells you or shows you, do it because you understand it.
Don't trust anyone, least of all yourself, check and verify.
Don't trust tools, check and verify them.
When you understand the relationships you can check and verify most things quite easily, without any expensive metrology tools.
It's nice to have a good reference straightedge if you can afford it, you can buy a straightedge, cheap or expensive, or you can make one out of MDF, and for most purposes it will get you where you need to go. Either way check them, regularly. Its all about how accurate you need to get and balanced against the material and job.
For instance if you made a 10' x 4' dining table with four legs and planed it flat to within 0.001" using a $20,000 camelback straight edge, when you move the table to a different spot on the floor it will no longer be flat, unless your floor is as flat as the original position.
Even reference surface plates have to be of a certain thickness to width and length to be stable, and then they are supported on magical three points so not to distort them.
Flat, straight, square, parallel ....Referencing is fascinating, and the basis for everything that you do in the workshop, it makes everything fit, it makes everything easy, it makes working fun.





Thanks. So you don't use winding sticks at all? Also, what would you consider a good straightedge? I found this one from Taylor Tools (https://taytools.com/products/anodized-aluminum-straight-edges?variant=18275208331315) that seemed to be reasonably priced.

[steven c newman]

Might look at a couple videos by Paul Sellers....since he does this sort of thing...a lot...

Reference Straightedge? Go out and buy a good 48" level....and use that for your straight edge.....

[Warren Mickley]

The plane Truth.

Now take your winding sticks….. throw them away…. and get yourself a good straight edge!

With your straightedge check, across the grain, lengthways with the grain and across the diagonals.
The diagonals will tell you if your board is twisted….. where and by precisely how much.
455628

There is a reason workers in the 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries used winding sticks. They had a lot more experience actually planing wood. Using a straightedge on the diagonals is a very clumsy way to gauge the wind in a board. The winding sticks are often longer than the board is wide, so in addition to gauging wind more directly, they accentuate the error. This is especially true when preparing edges for gluing.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hey Warren,

How are you doing, well, I hope.

There is a reason that people worked by candle light in the 17th century as well, not sure what that has to do with the price of Tea in China though.
I am not a historian So a little clarification if you please; what has the way things were done in the dark ages got to do with the age on infinite knowledge and technological marvels in which we all currently reside?

"They had a lot more experience actually planing wood. " Than Who? and why would that matter to our discussion?

"so in addition to gauging wind" How exactly do winding sticks gauge anything? You put one on one end of a table top and one on the other and you focus on which one? If you focus on the near one, the far one is out of focus, and visa versa. So you make a guess. To what degree of accuracy do you guess to?

With a straight edge you can obtain an accurate measurement with a feeler gauge to 0.001" if you so wish. No guesswork involved.

Edges for gluing are a different kettle of fish; I have done a few myself in the past 50 odd years, never used winding sticks and never will. Put one board on top of the other, check it with a straight edge ( the edge of your plane works fine) move the top board from one end then the other, it will pivot on the high spots, plane down the high spots, not difficult, and with a fine shaving extremely precise.

I you like winding sticks that's fine, but if you want to say that they are better, then supply some evidence to back it up or at least a good argument to support your statement, because i don't care what way it was done 300 years ago. Or if they did more shavings than someone else. I care about doing things the best and most efficient way. How, where, why or when that came from is of no consequence, only whether or not it works.

If you take a 4' x 8' precision granite surface plate, and place a precision camelback straight edge across the diagonals it will touch all the way across, if you put a 0.001" shim under the corners, you will be able to fit a 0.001" shim in the middle. any deviation would be measurable.






There is a reason workers in the 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries used winding sticks. Using a straightedge on the diagonals is a very clumsy way to gauge the wind in a board. The winding sticks are often longer than the board is wide, so in addition to gauging wind more directly, they accentuate the error. This is especially true when preparing edges for gluing.

[Warren Mickley]

If you don't understand the few arguments I gave, there is no point in supplying more.

[Rafael Herrera]

"so in addition to gauging wind" How exactly do winding sticks gauge anything? You put one on one end of a table top and one on the other and you focus on which one? If you focus on the near one, the far one is out of focus, and visa versa. So you make a guess. To what degree of accuracy do you guess to?

With a straight edge you can obtain an accurate measurement with a feeler gauge to 0.001" if you so wish. No guesswork involved.


It does not matter which one you focus on, there is no front or back to a flat surface.

What is the point of getting a 0.001" accuracy on a slab of wood? What woodworker works by specifying mils in their measurements?

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I got the 50” one from Taylor tools. It’s a game changer for me. Also, a good straight edge sent just something straight. It needs to be thin enough to allow light to pass through, and light enough not to flex the wood. I was trying to use my no. 8 but it was too massive and wouldn’t let enough light through. I am very happy with the tay tools straight edge.

[Tom M King]

You don't need to focus on a winding stick. Get your eye in a position so you can see over the near one, to under the far one. Raise, and lower your eye enough to judge the gap you see. When the gap closes simultaneously, from one end to the other, the ends are co-planar. If the gap closes on one end before the other, the reason is obvious. You can focus on something beyond the gap, but I've never thought about what I'm focusing on.

I like no. 6's for flattening. I ended up with two by chance, but like the way they follow each other. One takes a shaving about 12-13 thou, and the second one half that. If something is terribly out of flat, the no. 5 starts.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi,

apparently I must be missing something; because I don't understand your statement. "there is no front or back to a flat surface."
I was referring to the difficulty being able to see both winding sticks, the one closest to you and the one farthest away from you.

The 0.001" was for reference, you can use 1/16" or a 1/2" you can work to whatever tolerance you want, it doesn't matter, the fact is you have no way of measuring with winding sticks, you can only guess.


It does not matter which one you focus on, there is no front or back to a flat surface.

What is the point of getting a 0.001" accuracy on a slab of wood? What woodworker works by specifying mils in their measurements?

[Mark Hennebury]

If you have got nothing......


If you don't understand the few arguments I gave, there is no point in supplying more.

[Tom Mayock]

I will take a crack at the straight-edge only approach this weekend. I have a mathematical background, and I have no problem with the coplanar concept. I think my issue at this point is using the reference surface to inform me about what material needs to be removed that is causing most of the problems.

I am also working on a rather odd work bench that the previous owner left in the garage. The workbench is basically a base cabinet that is installed against the wall with a laminated top on it. The 5 inches or so of the top that are away from the wall (and thus the most accessible part of the bench) are not coplanar with the rest of the table and slope down at an angle of 1-2 degrees. This makes holding and stabilizing work... challenging.

When people say that something is flat within a X millimeters, how do people typically make this assessment with hand tools? Do you just sweep the straightedge around the table and check with the feeler gauge in a few points?

[Mark Hennebury]

I don't usually use a feeler gauge when planing a table top. I mentioned a feeler gauge as an example of being able to measure the deviation, but it is not necessary to know any measurement, you have to take off what you have to take of to get it flat.
So I would examine the top and imagine how I would get a top and bottom surface flat and parallel and get the maximum thickness out of the board.
So this requires a bit of judgement, and practice. You have to image two parallel planes slicing through all of the peaks, skimming the valleys, removing the minimum amount necessary, to leave you with the thickest flat board.
It's a fun challenge to imagine the plane, and to "see" where you need to remove material.
You can of course place a twisted board on a flat surface and shim it, and measure how much, or scribe around from the flat, though that is not something that I do. Once you have a flat surface, you can scribe the other side from your flat surface to produce your parallel planed second surface.
This is the skill that you gain from doing. You use the same principles for dressing lumber with machines like jointers and thicknessplaners. You can't just push a twisted board over a joiner and expect it to come out flat. You can put a twisted board on a sled, shim it and secure it and feed it through a thickness planer and get a nice flat planed surface. Your judgement improves with practice.
Just experiment, you will figure out what works for your needs at this time, be open to challenging your own ideas.

Woodworking is easy; wood is easy to understand, tools and machines are easy, humans are difficult. The hardest part about learning woodwork, is seeing past our own prejudice.




I will take a crack at the straight-edge only approach this weekend. I have a mathematical background, and I have no problem with the coplanar concept. I think my issue at this point is using the reference surface to inform me about what material needs to be removed that is causing most of the problems.

I am also working on a rather odd work bench that the previous owner left in the garage. The workbench is basically a base cabinet that is installed against the wall with a laminated top on it. The 5 inches or so of the top that are away from the wall (and thus the most accessible part of the bench) are not coplanar with the rest of the table and slope down at an angle of 1-2 degrees. This makes holding and stabilizing work... challenging.

When people say that something is flat within a X millimeters, how do people typically make this assessment with hand tools? Do you just sweep the straightedge around the table and check with the feeler gauge in a few points?

[Steve Voigt]

Now take your winding sticks….. throw them away…. and get yourself a good straight edge!



This is terrible advice. Why would you advise someone to throw away the traditional, proven tool for dealing with twist?


There is a reason workers in the 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries used winding sticks. They had a lot more experience actually planing wood. Using a straightedge on the diagonals is a very clumsy way to gauge the wind in a board. The winding sticks are often longer than the board is wide, so in addition to gauging wind more directly, they accentuate the error. This is especially true when preparing edges for gluing.

Warren is 100% right here. I can only surmise that people who don't use winding sticks simply never figured out how to use them. Once you get the hang of them, they are faster and easier than the makeshift methods people resort to.

My advice is to learn the traditional methods people have used for hundreds of years; as Warren says, there is a good reason these methods have persisted.

[Warren Mickley]

I will take a crack at the straight-edge only approach this weekend. I have a mathematical background, and I have no problem with the coplanar concept. I think my issue at this point is using the reference surface to inform me about what material needs to be removed that is causing most of the problems.

I am also working on a rather odd work bench that the previous owner left in the garage. The workbench is basically a base cabinet that is installed against the wall with a laminated top on it. The 5 inches or so of the top that are away from the wall (and thus the most accessible part of the bench) are not coplanar with the rest of the table and slope down at an angle of 1-2 degrees. This makes holding and stabilizing work... challenging.

When people say that something is flat within a X millimeters, how do people typically make this assessment with hand tools? Do you just sweep the straightedge around the table and check with the feeler gauge in a few points?

I think that when people say that the surface of a board is flat to within a certain tolerance, it is likely that they don't have a mathematical background like you.

The traditional method is to use straightedge and winding sticks to evaluate the surface. With long pieces we use the winding sticks at both ends and one or more intermediate points as well. Part of the skill is to translate that information into a map of the surface in your mind. And part of the skill is to have a feel for how much planing in what areas will bring you to a point where your next inspection will show a much flatter surface.

The narrower the piece is, the less effective it to use a straightedge on the diagonals, while the winding sticks accentuate the twist. This especially helpful when making a frame construction, for example. A small twist in one member will make the frame twist to a much greater degree.

[Rob Young]

Hey Warren,


"so in addition to gauging wind" How exactly do winding sticks gauge anything? You put one on one end of a table top and one on the other and you focus on which one? If you focus on the near one, the far one is out of focus, and visa versa. So you make a guess. To what degree of accuracy do you guess to?



You need to be further back from the winding sticks if you can't hold a focus that shows both clearly. Or update your prescription.

[lowell holmes]

I was going to comment but you guys have covered it. I do mark the end of the board with a tri square and then scribe the cut line with a knife.

https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&type=E211US739G0&p=carpenter+knives+and+utility+knives

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Steve,

I thought that it was quite funny actually.

Warren may be 100% right, I am not an authority on anything, just throwing my two cents in to shake it up, to help people to question and experiment. I am as human as the rest, and as such just as full of all that good human bias. You shouldn't believe a word that I say.


This is terrible advice. Why would you advise someone to throw away the traditional, proven tool for dealing with twist?


Warren is 100% right here. I can only surmise that people who don't use winding sticks simply never figured out how to use them. Once you get the hang of them, they are faster and easier than the makeshift methods people resort to.

My advice is to learn the traditional methods people have used for hundreds of years; as Warren says, there is a good reason these methods have persisted.

[Mark Hennebury]

I recently got glasses.... Now, if I can only remember where I put them....


You need to be further back from the winding sticks if you can't hold a focus that shows both clearly. Or update your prescription.

[Rob Young]

I recently got glasses.... Now, if I can only remember where I put them....
Check the top of your head...

It got more annoying when I finally got bifocals (continuous vision type) after 30+ years of wearing glasses.

Other than the glasses issue, I find that I need to be back at least the distance between the two sticks with a lower limit of 3 feet to be able to focus on both. So if I have them 4 feet apart I need to be about 4 feet back from the nearest winding stick. But if they sticks were say 14" apart I would still need to be about 3 feet back of the closest stick. YMMV.

[Oskar Sedell]

just to add what has been already said. Winding sticks are more universal than a straight edge and can be used in many instances. As have been said, on narrow boards any difference on diagonals might be hard to discern with a straight edge, while exaggerated with winding sticks. And there will always be the case of the board longer than your longest straight edge. Winding sticks are the same to any length of board.

[Dennis Droege]

Tom, this isn't intended as advice, but it works for me in a certain situation: I make small wooden boxes with dovetailed joints, and it's necessary that all my pieces be flat, parallel and square. When I see that one piece has a little 'rock' (is this the origin of the 'tap test'?), I have had excellent luck with placing a piece of carbon paper on a good flat surface, carbon side up, and drawing the piece I want to flatten across it. Minor smudging gets minor planing, then do it again--I take a certain joy in seeing the 'rock' diminish until the piece is flat. Best to you.

[Jim Koepke]

Tom, Here is a post of mine > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?272588 < it includes using different methods of checking different pieces for flat.

Winding sticks by necessity are straight edges. Another way to make a straight edge as long as you want is to use a tightly strung piece of string. This method is also used in the link above. The project is still ongoing. Due to many other things my time on it has been restricted. Hopefully it will be finished this year.

Here is a post on making straight edges and winding sticks > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?290331

Amazingly, making a straight edge for yourself will give you insight in how to produce a straight edge or a flat surface. It is kind of practice, training and accomplishment all in one.

Good luck with your endeavors,

jtk

[Tom Mayock]

Tom, Here is a post of mine > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?272588 < it includes using different methods of checking different pieces for flat.

Winding sticks by necessity are straight edges. Another way to make a straight edge as long as you want is to use a tightly strung piece of string. This method is also used in the link above. The project is still ongoing. Due to many other things my time on it has been restricted. Hopefully it will be finished this year.

Here is a post on making straight edges and winding sticks > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?290331

Amazingly, making a straight edge for yourself will give you insight in how to produce a straight edge or a flat surface. It is kind of practice, training and accomplishment all in one.

Good luck with your endeavors,

jtk

Thanks a lot. Very interesting. I cannot seem to view any of the photos and get a permissions error when I click on them. Is there something that I need to do to enable picture viewing?

[Robert Hazelwood]

I'll not add to any specific advice here, other than to check you work often with straight edges and winding sticks. After checking mark out what you think are the high spots and plane those down, then re-check. Over time you will acquire a sense for how to attack a board that has a certain kind of error (twist, cup, etc.), and develop a feel for how many shavings it takes to correct a certain amount of twist.

For reasonably sized boards at least (say, not more than 8-10" wide and less than 2 or 3 ft long, and not too thin) it is very possible to handplane within a few thousands of flat without undue effort. To get truly within 1 thou is possible but the fiddle factor goes up a lot. Longer boards, wider boards, and very thin boards are more challenging, but usually have less need of such tolerances.

To do this task with something approaching efficiency is quite difficult and takes a lot of practice. It's more difficult than a lot of other tasks that get all the attention on forums and magazines. But if you put in the time, you will learn a lot about hand planing, sharpening, and geometry, all of which will be useful even if you end up buying huge machines for stock prep.

[Nathan Johnson]

Thanks a lot. Very interesting. I cannot seem to view any of the photos and get a permissions error when I click on them. Is there something that I need to do to enable picture viewing?

You need to become a contributor.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks a lot. Very interesting. I cannot seem to view any of the photos and get a permissions error when I click on them. Is there something that I need to do to enable picture viewing?


You need to become a contributor.

What Nathan said, $6 well spent.

Robert states a point that has helped me greatly:


[edited]
Over time you will acquire a sense for how to attack a board that has a certain kind of error (twist, cup, etc.), and develop a feel for how many shavings it takes to correct a certain amount of twist.

For my last employer one of my tasks was to produce a technical manual for the repair of ticket vendor mechanisms. One section was on calibrating one's eyes to be able to judge the size of spacers. The same concept is useful in woodworking.

People often make light of folks who measure the thickness of shavings. It can help a person to calibrate their eyes to the point of being able to judge not only how thick a shaving is but also how much difference there is between one side of an edge and its opposite side under a square.

This helps me in squaring an edge on just about every project. Knowing how thick of a shaving my plane is cutting and how much of a gap is under my square helps me to determine how much of an angle to bias my plane when taking the next shaving. If the gap is about four shavings thick, my plane is held to take about a quarter of the edge on the first stroke. Then with the plane riding on the surface made by that stroke it should take three shavings to get a full width shaving and an edge square to the face.

The $6 to become a contributor has been one of my best woodworking investments. If after becoming a contributor you do not feel it was worth it, let me know and my promise to you is to send you $6 via Paypal or check for a refund. That is how strongly my feelings are about the value of the content here.

jtk

[Bob Jones 5443]

I start on the jointer, but don’t stress with the final few thou of wind. By then, most of the bumps and valleys are gone.

Next, winding sticks and a set of precision shims help me predict how many 0.002” or even 0.001” “stop shavings” I’ll need to take out any remaining wind. My shims start with 0.0005”, 0.001”, 0.0015”, 0.002”, 0.003”. There are nine more in the set, going up to 0.030”. The first five are more than sufficient to work on wind. Fast, accurate, and reliable, this method lets me confidently remove wind. Results match prediction without the “oh shucks” experience. Can’t ask for more than that.

Then I can get on with flattening the face with a cambered plane iron. For final thicknessing, it’s a gauge line, the planer, and the cambered iron. Quick. Easy.

I have a LOT to learn about woodworking, but I’m all set with the skills of removing wind and flattening. I encourage others to take a look at this method.

[Patrick Bernardo]

You don't need to focus on a winding stick. Get your eye in a position so you can see over the near one, to under the far one. Raise, and lower your eye enough to judge the gap you see. [...]

Oh my gosh: I just realized that I never got the hang of winding sticks and that's because I was looking top-to-top. I just couldn't judge wind successfully, and couldn't figure out why. Thought my eyesight was just terrible! Ironically, when I'm planing an edge, I can *feel* square, and know, before checking, when it's going out. Hopefully I'll get wind conquered now!

Hahaha - thanks Tom! Sometimes it's the little things that nobody ever mentions, that really matter.

[Jim Koepke]

I start on the jointer, but don’t stress with the final few thou of wind. By then, most of the bumps and valleys are gone.

Next, winding sticks and a set of precision shims help me predict how many 0.002” or even 0.001” “stop shavings” I’ll need to take out any remaining wind. My shims start with 0.0005”, 0.001”, 0.0015”, 0.002”, 0.003”. There are nine more in the set, going up to 0.030”.

Hi Bob, I am guessing you are referring to a power jointer and planer. Many folks here do not have either one of those. Some of us do not care to have them.

It is kind of like my use of open end wrenches as calipers while turning something on the lathe. it makes great sense to me, but not all wood turners are going to have a set of automotive tools.


Oh my gosh: I just realized that I never got the hang of winding sticks and that's because I was looking top-to-top.

Patrick, my use of winding sticks has only been for a few years. It started with some rather large pieces of lumber. The ability to have a quick way to map the surface has been very helpful.

Being a woodworker, the ability to make straight edges or winding sticks is a fundamental element of the craft. If one cannot make two pieces of wood with straight edges to check for wind, how would they expect to make two straight edges to glue together to make a table top or cabinet?

jtk

[steven c newman]

So many ways to skin this cat....one detail that has been left out......unless the lumber is of the clear variety.....one has to deal with...knots...and how they tend to warp their little "neighborhood"....

Speaking of eyeballs.....how many of you all can look down a board, from one end....and tell IF there is any twist? Yes, you do have to use BOTH eyeballs....and don't squint.

Used to form concrete walls for a living....and got to the point I could indeed look down a line of forms....and tell you IF they were straight and plumb...Then we'd come back, after the concrete had been "placed" ( not poured) and check to see how well the wall stayed straight....

I usually work with boards under 4' long....and will just lay the board on the bench, and see IF it "rocks or rolls"....and correct IF need be. Prep edges to glue up panels...I have a steel yard stick, used by Tinsmiths, as a straight edge....I do the first part of the panel, and then use it's jointed edge to check the next in the panel....until all the boards in the panel can be "stood up" from the leg vise, no glue, no clamps, and the panel will sit there...I still will check for any gaps....if none seen, glue clamps and cauls will get used. hmmmmm..
455706
Before....and...
455707
Clean up the glue joint, before the panel gets "raised"..
455708

you all are trying to turn this into a "Rocket Science"......

[Mark Hennebury]

You win! that's the funniest post by far.
You use your eyes....rocket science...haha


So many ways to skin this cat....one detail that has been left out......unless the lumber is of the clear variety.....one has to deal with...knots...and how they tend to warp their little "neighborhood"....

Speaking of eyeballs.....how many of you all can look down a board, from one end....and tell IF there is any twist? Yes, you do have to use BOTH eyeballs....and don't squint.

Used to form concrete walls for a living....and got to the point I could indeed look down a line of forms....and tell you IF they were straight and plumb...Then we'd come back, after the concrete had been "placed" ( not poured) and check to see how well the wall stayed straight....

I usually work with boards under 4' long....and will just lay the board on the bench, and see IF it "rocks or rolls"....and correct IF need be. Prep edges to glue up panels...I have a steel yard stick, used by Tinsmiths, as a straight edge....I do the first part of the panel, and then use it's jointed edge to check the next in the panel....until all the boards in the panel can be "stood up" from the leg vise, no glue, no clamps, and the panel will sit there...I still will check for any gaps....if none seen, glue clamps and cauls will get used. hmmmmm..
455706
Before....and...
455707
Clean up the glue joint, before the panel gets "raised"..
455708

you all are trying to turn this into a "Rocket Science"......

[Charles Guest]

Imagine trying to flatten a board with a block plane and you'll understand the theory -- you only hit the high spots until it's flat. Planing willy-nilly all over a decent sized board, even with a long plane, will inevitably result in planing areas that were low to begin with -- the board won't get flat and it'll end up too thin.

[Phil Mueller]

I’ll add also, that even a 3/4 board of average length can flex while planing. Say you are working on the convex side of a board placed flat on your bench. As you work to plane out the “hump”, it can flex down and give you a false sense of flat...or the plane won’t take a shaving when you know it’s a high spot. In cases like this, I will often shim the underside with a few playing cards to keep the bottom side “flat” while planing the top. This was a huge frustration for me early on until I realized the issue.

[Charles Guest]

You need to be further back from the winding sticks if you can't hold a focus that shows both clearly. Or update your prescription.

Winding sticks are essential. Anybody who can't focus on both of them is almost always too close. They do accentuate error, especially on edges as Warren mentions. Using them effectively will prevent baffling errors during glue-ups, assembly, and fitting.

[Tom Trees]

Can't but agree about thin stock deflecting, but I don't get the shimming.
It looks slower to me than to just flip the board over or around,
Well I say that, as I use no more than a single batton so it's easier than if the work was held down,
and using the close set cap iron no need to do any wrangling around areas on any piece of timber, so can just treat every piece the same.


I believe I've seen a video here not so long ago, of planing thin stock held in a tail vice.
I am going to try that some day for the fun and compare, when I finish my scandi bench,
Curious to see if it helps some thin stock for the initial few swipes, while curious to see what the board looks like on the bench afterwards,

Might make sense for some thin stock which it would be wasteful to flatten completely, and might have use for lesser precision projects bonded
with a suitable glue.
Not too big of a deal to make a second planing batton for the tail vice to try it out, and possibly useful for other projects.

Tom

[Tom Mayock]

You need to become a contributor.

Thanks. I must have missed this when I created an account. This is a totally different board when you can actually see the images!

[Nathan Johnson]

Thanks. I must have missed this when I created an account. This is a totally different board when you can actually see the images!

Agreed.
It's a bargain.

[Will Blick]

you got some great advise here, and the usual bickering, welcome to SMC ;)
Just a few bits of input after tackling this myself...
1 Much depends on what u start with, wood type, and size of wood, this dictates how hard. Obviously a large piece of wood or glued up panel will be much harder than a small board.
2 not all wood handles cross planning..
3) the technique in the video of getting both ends of the face flat..that does not make them co planar, hence winding sticks.
4) Love the post about references, totally agree. No reference is better than a flat surface bigger than the board u are working on...the carbon paper works wonders if you can keep the work piece steady when rubbing it...its easy to cock if the work piece is very crooked, twisted, etc.
5) Once u get one side flat, the other side is much easier, as you have a new reference...

I often wondered why a jig would not be a better way for this task, similar to a router sled jig, but used for hand planes. Same proven process at work Neander style.

For me, I gave up on large flattening by hand... I do find it quite challenging and quite the mind bender, but I also find I waste a ton of wood. If I was to continue flattening Neander, I would develop the sled system.